Don’t Piss Off Krissy

So, Krissy was out last night at a bar with some friends, and while they were there, some ambitious drunk got it into his head to start trying his luck with her, making all sorts of rude plays for her attention. She basically ignored him for most of the evening, until the point where the guy actually tried to touch her. At which point she shoved him up against a wall, jammed her arm into his throat and said, “I have had enough of you being rude and disrespectful toward women. The next time I see you, you will be polite and show respect.” At which point the dude started blubbering all sorts of drunken apologies.

Krissy let him live.

My wife rocks.

Update, 9/10/06, 8:37pm: Because I was unclear on this earlier, yes, in fact, the guy actually did grab Krissy, and not in a nice way. Krissy was, in fact, defending herself.

184 thoughts on “Don’t Piss Off Krissy

  1. Dude, your wife totally rocks. Wow! Smooth move on her part. What a schmuck to have bothered her like that at all! Sheesh.

    Anyway, happy day to you all. :)

  2. HOLY FUDGE!!! I SURRENDER!!!

    Jesus Christ that scares me. Not strong women as I married one. It’s just that Krissy scares me. And I’m 6’7″.

    Will chocolate appease she who wields a bat?

  3. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

    I find that our culture tends to get all zero-tolerance for no reason, which results in constant posturing. So many people bitch, moan and threaten and then back down in a New York Second when confronted with real adversity.

    Saving your directed anger for those who really need it is a good technique. I like.

  4. BWHAHAHAHAHA.

    A truly excellent way to start the morning. Yes, indeed, Herr Scalzi. Your wife does ROCK! Please do give her and your offspring my warmest regards.

    Doselle

  5. Walking around the signout at Wiscon this year, my friends and i passed your table and i said, “D’ya think John would be insulted if i went up and asked for Krissy’s autograph instead of his??”

  6. “Fact”: Shakespeare cut this line from All’s Well That Ends Well
    “…for want of a cheeseboard a cad went ungelded.”
    oops, wrong thread! Sorry.

  7. Note to Krissy: I have found the breaking of fingers is also quite effective, as I believe you noted earlier. Were you channeling Jane?

  8. Great band name! “Ambitious Drunk” (though I’d probably call a band “The Ambitious Drunks” and we can all hipster it to the Amby Ds and point out that no, we don’t mean the Ambidextrous Drunks, although that’s a fine name too!)

  9. Sounds like a woman with whom I’d be friends. Strong women push my ‘like mother’ buttons. They run in my mother’s family – and include one of my cousins who is almost always in skirt, blouse, and pumps but also runs a dojo and was raised by a rancher who kept her busy herding cattle and is just over five feet in height. I’ve never quite understood the man who thinks women are attracted by someone acting like an ass.

  10. Great story. I love it.

    I’ve always loved the “respect” poster (the “children” one too), though I think it could be even better if the bat she was holding was a bit bigger.

  11. My dear competitor showed me this post, because I haven’t been keeping up with my feeds lately.

    I read it, and observed, “That photo is so hot.”

    Then I added, “I know better than to leave this comment on the thread, because she has a BAT.”

    Unfortunately, the insistence of my dear competitor trumps mere common sense.

    In summation, none of this is my fault.

  12. Most excellent.

    It reminds me of when my friend Shernita confronted with an aggressive yahoo who referred to her as a [n-word - sorry, can't even type it] in a bar. She asked if that was le mot juste, and on being provided with an affirmative, politely introduced the speaker’s face to her knee.

  13. Krissy Rocks! I’ve always wanted her to guest post…or start her own blog. But now I know that she is too busy doing the essential task of keeping men in their place.

  14. Cassie,

    You get a faster swing with a smaller bat.

    So true, and years of coaching youth baseball have taught me that bat speed is much more important than bat size.

    Jerks like that bar fly piss me off. They give a bad name to all us guys.

  15. My wee wifey doesn’t have the strength to swing a bat like that and is too short to jam her arm into most people’s throats, but her .32 revolver sure got that one guy to back off.

  16. And the Marines are looking for a “few good men”? Maybe they are looking in the wrong gender.

    Can you imagine her in Iraq??

  17. Several questions:

    Did she ask him, politely or not, to leave her alone first before actually attacking him?

    Why is it that everyone here seems to be turned on by belligerent, butch women?

    Do you know any lawyers? Because if she actually hits someone who annoys here with a bat you’re going to need one.

  18. K –

    – Yes, I did ask him several times to leave it alone.

    – I may be a bitch woman but I am neither butch nor belligerent.

    – I did not actually hurt the little man.

  19. Whatever, you sound like every drunk guy who decides to beat the shit out of someone who’s been “dissing” him.

  20. TO: Whomever
    RE: Krissey

    Interesting photo.

    Not sure whether or not she belongs in a biker gang or something like a WWWF Gone Berserk Tourney.

    Personally, I prefer the type that are like Lady Barbara [see Horatio Hornblower novel "Beat to Quarters"] who can handle an ACP. Much more effective than a baseball bat.

    Regards,

    Chuck(le)
    [God made Men. Colt made men (and women) equal.]

  21. Very classy. You married a woman who starts bar room brawls. You must be soooo proud.

    Krissy committed a battery. It wasn’t self defense and she’s fortunate she wasn’t arrested. Had she been, it sounds like she’d have fit in just fine in jail.

  22. Oh, I see, Ming. And you know the particulars of the whole event because you were there?

    No? Oh.

    Well, in that case, fuck off, you officious little prick.

    Fathat:

    If you think a woman busting the chops of a man who has spent the evening verbally harassing him and then proceeds to touch her in an unwanted way is like “every drunk guy,” you’re not thinking very clearly.

    K:

    “Because if she actually hits someone who annoys her with a bat you’re going to need one.”

    I find it amusing you’re under the impression she would actually take a bat to someone.

  23. Battery?!? Jeeze… It’s not like she pistol-whipped the drunken lout or smashed a bottle over his head. She restrained someone who was essentially assaulting her with constant, unwanted advances and simply gave him a stern and much-needed lecture on manners.

    As for belligerent and butch, that’s not the case. I think guys are attracted to strong, independent women who have the backbone to stand up for themselves.

  24. Ming, you are an idjit my friend. As soon as the drunk “tried to touch her” it became self defense.

    John, calling him a “officious little prick” is disrespectful to all the officious little pricks out there, he is more like a … well, I’m sure this is a family friendly blog. ;-)

    Cheers and all hail Krissy!!!

  25. I have nothing but respect for a woman who can stand up for herself. Those of you who are implying that Krissy is unfeminine or somehow more mannish than womanly ought to be glad that there are women like this in the world.

    She’ll make a good example when your sisters or wives think they can’t fend for themselves or stand up for themselves.

    Don’t take any guff, Krissy.

  26. Well, with all the trolls around I guess it wouldn’t have taken to long for them to start the whole, “Women should be demure,” crap.

    Hell, John, that’s one heck of a woman you’ve got there. She’s got the mams more than most men have got the cajones (and I mean that in a good way).

    As for those scared of strong women, there’s this quote in Steven King’s “On Writing” about people liking the passive voice. If you’re really interested you can look it up.

    See, in my marriage, I like the blunt objects, my wife has her personal collection of sharp pointy things. That and she was a purple belt in her dojo (which actually was a good school, no social or time promotion there). She was also the first to qualify on the range for our concealed carry class (10 other guys took much longer to put lead on target) and had the highest score on the written. It makes her all the more attractive to me. Someone to match as an equal is always more enjoyable than a wet sop.

  27. Oh, I see, Ming. And you know the particulars of the whole event because you were there?

    I notice you didn’t bother correcting any misapprehension held by people agreeing with her actions.

    As amusing as we might find it (and we do, honestly), attacking people who annoy us is not really acceptable adult behavior. Self-defense has to be proportionate, or it’s just bullying.

  28. Malvolio:

    “I notice you didn’t bother correcting any misapprehension held by people agreeing with her actions.”

    That’s because they weren’t being jackasses regarding my wife, Malvolio.

    “Attacking people who annoy us is not really acceptable adult behavior.”

    In this particular case, it was both entirely justified and wholly proportionate.

  29. Krissy may very well rock, but if she does, it is regardless of behavior like this, rather than as a result of it.

    Because there is nothing particularly praiseworthy about physically overpowering and intimidating a pathetically lonely and desperate drunk.

    Not to mention how praising her for it is actually quite sexist. If she were a man, nobody would give such an occurrence a second thought. Nor would they likely blog about it, let alone go on to praise ‘him’ for it. The main, if not only, reason why people are giving up the hoo-rahs and boo-yahs here is merely because Krissy’s a woman.

    And that, sadly, is pretty much the same mindset as the one behind Johnson’s infamous aphorism about amazement at women preaching, and dogs walking on their hind legs: not at how well it may be done, but that it should be done at all.

    However, I for one don’t consider self-defense on the part of women to be something extraordinary. As far as I’m concerned, it’s an adult default state for everybody, regardless of gender. It’s just the bare minimum. What is exceptional is when somebody exceeds that bare minimum.

    For example: there actually is a primary, main reason why men behave like that — it is because in the past, women have rewarded them for it, with attention, affection, and intimacy.

    So what would actually ‘rock’ now would be for Krissy and John, or any of most of the commenters here, to post acknowledging that, and do the nigh-unthinkable in today’s culture: actually dare to criticize women for their particular behavioral irresponsibility; to point out that many women go in groups to drinking establishments specifically in order to hook up with men there, or at the very least get their egos stroked through interaction with the men there; and that the men there know it, and also know that very often a ‘no’ from the women there really just means ‘try harder’.

    And what would have actually ‘rocked’ then would have been for Krissy to do something superior to that bare minimum. . .such as successfully explaining to the guy that even though this kind of behavior may have worked for him in the past, he should go away and acquire and develop a broader range of behavioral resources and skills, because not only weren’t this set working this time, but they were very likely to get him publicly humiliated.

    Now, because of experience, I have two things to make explicitly clear:

    1) I’m not suggesting, or even implying, that she is at all obligated to do something generous and charitable and helpful such as that. I don’t think that she is.

    2) Nor am I suggesting, or even implying, that she was wrong to forcibly defend herself by overpowering and intimidating him after he crossed the physical line. I don’t think that she was.

    All I am saying is that what she did do was no more than the bare minimum, and I therefore fail to see why she deserves any particular praise for it.

    To repeat it for emphasis: there really is not anything particularly praiseworthy about overpowering and intimidating a pathetically lonely and desperate drunk. Regardless of the genders involved, or how rude and pushy he or she may act.

    Any average schmoe can pin a drunk to a wall with their forearm, and make them blubber apologetically. But doing so is not something in which people who genuinely ‘rock’ take pride.

    People who genuinely ‘rock’ take pride in trying to be better than that.

    To them, it is sympathy, compassion, and assistance for such lonely, messed-up, behaviorally handicapped people which is above the average.

    To them, that is what actually ‘rocks’.

  30. Ming – that IS a proportionate response. She immobilized him and lectured him. She notably did not break anything, nor injure him in any way except his pride (unless I’m completely misreading the incident). He’s lucky she didn’t choose to break a finger or a wrist on the hand that was touching her – she would have been well within her rights to do so. Kudos Krissy on your restraint.

  31. Acksiom:

    “Because there is nothing particularly praiseworthy about physically overpowering and intimidating a pathetically lonely and desperate drunk.”

    Dear Lord, save us from nonsense.

    You don’t know if he was pathetically lonely or desperate; unless you were there you don’t know anything about the particulars of this drunk other than what I’ve told you. Perhaps he was a menacing drunk. Perhaps he was a creepy and unsettling drunk. There are lots of ways this drunk could have been, and in any number of cases physically overpowering and intimidating him would have been an entirely appropriate response. If you want to suggest you know which kind of drunk this particular fellow was, please do detail either whom you knew among the witnesses, your own presence at the bar in question, or verifiable proof of your psychic abilities. Short of that, your assertion of knowledge as to what kind of drunk this man was is specious and should be regarded as such — as should all of your commentary which follows.

    Now, as it happens, I know rather more about the entire situation than any of you commenters. From what I know, Krissy’s reaction was both appropriate and admirable, and she was right to do it. And in fact she rocks because she handled the situation in a smart and appropriate manner, which in this case was to put her arm into the neck of this asshole and tell him to behave.

    You’re free to disagree, but as you’re fundamentally ignorant of the particulars of the situation, your opinion doesn’t really amount to much in this particular case, and indeed your entire analysis strikes me as the entirely fatuous blatheration of someone who hasn’t the slightest idea what he or she is talking about as regards this situation. Your opinion of what people who rock do in this situation is thus entirely discountable, and I will do just that. I appreciate your enthusaism, but basically, you’re entirely, utterly and absolutely wrong in this case.

    Now, to be fair, I’ve not given a full account of the event here; there are lots of interesting details I chose to leave out in my retelling, for various reasons of my own. But that’s my business; suffice to say that I would not speak glowingly of my wife handling this situation as she did if I did not feel that all things considered she handled it in the way it needed to be handled. All the other interpretations of Krissy should have handled it are like the blind men’s interpretations of the elephant — ridiculous because none of them are able to take in the whole animal.

  32. Axiom (yeah, I geddit) Oh Pullease!

    You’ve pushed and pulled and stretched the situation to the point where merely standing up for oneself is worth no praise at all but instead what Krissy should have done was to use the opportunity to “make the world a better place” by educating this misguided victim, counseling him on the appropriate way to go about getting his needs met?!

    Is that what you are saying?

    Yuck.

  33. specifically in order to hook up with men there, or at the very least get their egos stroked through interaction with the men there;

    Don’t flatter yourself, buddyjack. Many of us don’t give a flying rat’s ass about you, we just want a margarita and some conversation—with each other.

    and also know that very often a ‘no’ from the women there really just means ‘try harder’.

    Not to anyone I know. Welcome to the 21st Century!

  34. I guess every one here now understands and accepts Cynthia McKinney’s reaction to being inappropriately touched by the male officer at the Capitol.

  35. ” and also know that very often a ‘no’ from the women there really just means ‘try harder’.”

    Naaaah, actually, it really tends to mean ‘no’, especially in a time where women are in charge of their agency and its repercussions. And frankly, those few women who subscribe to the “‘no’ means make me a better offer” stratagem are giving you a big red flag that means “STAY AWAY! EMOTIONAL MINE FIELD AHEAD!”

  36. WRONG. Completely wrong.

    What you’re advocating is the same stupidity that afflicts the world over. There were numerous options available other than a violent response, and your proclamation that this was the right thing to do in the situation is completely out of line.

    Quite simply, two wrongs don’t make a right.

    The only reason your wife doesn’t deserve to be beaten with an ugly stick is because God already beat us to the job.

    Your wife might think she’s a hard a$$, but she’s nowhere near it. She was lucky the dude was just a drunken buffoon. I recommend against perpetuating your misconception.

    Next time, I hope the guy has a gun.

  37. Heh. Well done Krissy.

    I’m curious about the reactions of the other people in the bar. If there was a smattering of applause then good on ‘em. If there was only a nervous silence I wouldn’t visit the place again.

  38. Jesus, what’s with some of these comments?

    Yeah, kick his ass! Break his fingers! Bring that bat down hard!

    Huh?

    Hey now, it’s all well that the missus gave the guy a reality check after he got up in her shit but let’s not get out of hand here. I was half expecting someone to say she shoulda taken the guy out back and ass raped him with a nightstick while pissing in his mouth.

    It’s good to see a woman not roll over. It’s sad to see people turn into savage fucking morons as a way of praise.

  39. Itchy Brother:

    Do you seriously not comprehend the difference between an obnoxious drunk who’s already been told to bug off, and a uniformed police officer attempting to restrain someone in the performance of his duties?

  40. Anonymous:

    “There were numerous options available other than a violent response, and your proclamation that this was the right thing to do in the situation is completely out of line.”

    Since you weren’t there, you haven’t the slightest idea whether this was true or not, so your opinion on the matter counts for nothing.

    So why don’t you take that opinion, and your wishes for my wife to be assaulted by a man with gun, and shove them square up your ass, you chickenshit loser who doesn’t even have the balls to sign his name to his nasty, misogynist and pathetic little comment.

    Martin Wisse:

    Yes, I know Dr. Helen’s linked here. I like Dr. Helen quite a bit, but to the extent that there are commenters here piously lecturing me on the propriety of my wife defending herself from drunken gropers, you can assume they come from there. I don’t blame Dr. Helen for some of her readers being twits.

  41. Odd to read all these comments from men who accuse Krissy of assault and battery for bracing a man who’s verbally harassed her for hours and then grabbed her privates. I wonder how they react when some drunken man in a bar cops a feel on their privates.

    I bet these are the same men who believe a woman wasn’t really raped unless she’s also murdered in her defense of herself like St. Maria Goretti.

  42. Interesting idea about the runoff election. While Bush would have still won in 2004 since he had over 50% it would have forced a runoff in 92 and 96 as Clinton never had over 50%.

  43. Uh, Ed, are you in the right comment thread?

    Joyful Alternative:

    “Odd to read all these comments from men who accuse Krissy of assault and battery for bracing a man who’s verbally harassed her for hours and then grabbed her privates.”

    Well, the man grabbed her, but not in the privates.

  44. Wha?:

    Yeah, how horrible she occasionally does things on her own, with her own set of friends, just like I do. And how horrible that our communication with each other is sufficiently full of trust that she can tell me about some jackass assaulting her, and of her defending herself, without me flying into a rage.

    Yeah, that clearly makes us the worst couple ever.

  45. You’re confusing “taking the opportunity to mock an entirely idiotic statement” with “defensive.”

  46. And with two simple one-liners, it devolves into personal insults. So much for the “I know how to argue, I have a PhD!” bit.

    Settle down, Beavis! It’s not good for your heart to get that riled up in the morning.

  47. Wha?

    “And with two simple one-liners, it devolves into personal insults. So much for the ‘I know how to argue, I have a PhD!’ bit.”

    There’s a difference between saying your statement is idiotic and that you’re an idiot. You apparently don’t know the difference, but I do.

    But, as I do like to oblige:

    Get off my site, you asshole.

  48. P.S. (I didn’t make a statement – I posed a question that you felt insinuated something – ok, gotta go, got a drinking date with a married chick)

  49. Wha?

    “Now THAT was a personal insult! ‘Bye. Hope you feel better soon.”

    Thanks! Indeed, I feel fine.

    “got a drinking date with a married chick”

    Heh. And you wonder why I picked up an insinuation.

  50. Now you’re getting it. Glad to see you’re not bursting veins anymore. I was just being a smartass – sorry to rattle your cage; I honestly thought you’d get a little larf out of it, but I’m warped, so I guess that explains that.
    So, ummm…Nice weather we’re having here,huh…

  51. John, you still on the premises? Got an anecdote I’m dyin’ to share, but it’s long and in “preview” the paragraph breaks don’t show up, so it comes off like a really daunting read.

  52. I’ve never seen a thread with such a perfectly balanced ratio of people I’d like to hang out with and people I couldn’t relate to if I had a steam-driven relatin’ machine.

    I apologize in advance for the filiblogster but y’all got me nostalgic.

    Halloween 1999: My then-girlfriend and I go to a club as a zombified prom couple, full-on face-falling-off Tom Savini FX, but you could still tell she was good-looking underneath.

    At one point in the evening we were moving in different circles, and unbeknownst to me, she was being relentlesly hit upon by some wasted meathead.

    Little later, we’re dancing. Said meathead, who I didn’t know the backstory of at this point, decides that a fluffy pop tune was made for moshing. Y’know those post-frat jerks that use moshing as a cover for bullying, going after one or two targets with their elbows and then being all “what, you can’t handle the pit?” Guy starts pulling that shit with me, so I do a leg-sweep on him. He dwarfs me physically so the crowd doesn’t recognize this as the pussified move on my part that it clearly is.

    Homeboy gets up and rushes me like a steer, but when he’s about three inches from my face my girl–tall for a girl but not imposing–grabs him by the collar, swings him in a quarter arc, slams him up against the wall, and pins his throat with her forearm.

    Her, dead serious but with a giggly lilt: “You. Need to CALM. DOWN.”

    Me, watching my manhood packing up the U-Haul: “I’ll handle it, babe.”

    Her: “Handle what? We’re cool.” To him: “We’re cool, right?”

    He just nodded. He was sweaty so I can’t swear to this, but I’d like to believe that was a tear I saw.

    Dunno if he came alone but he sure left that way. At the EXACT MOMENT she released him, a slow song came on; as he slinked away she took my hand, and the crowd formed a circle around us for a spotlight dance. Total John Hughes moment, applause and everything. She let me lead, by the way, in accordance with testicle-restoration outreach bylaws.

    After that song, we bellied up to the bar, and the bartender refused our money. I assumed it was because of the dust-up and said something about my girlfriend’s future as a bouncer-for-hire.

    Bartender: “What are you talking about? You won the couples’ costume contest. Drinks are on the house all night.”

    Blank stares on our part.

    “You didn’t hear the announcement? That’s why the crowd cleared the floor for you.”

    So we just sat there drinking for a while, me basking in reflected asskickingness. I generally eschew public displays but man oh MAN did we ever make out in front of everybody when “Thriller” came on.

    She’s married now. He’s a wonderful man and he’s given her a life that I never could. I hate him more than all the drunken, moshing meatheads in the world combined.

  53. Oh, man, Roy Edroso is picking up on Helen Reynolds picking up on this:

    http://alicublog.blogspot.com/2006_09_10_alicublog_archive.html#115793083395497934

    “Dr. Mrs. Ole Perfesser is outraged:

    This regressive behavior is typical of the violent youth I see who have so little impulse control that they beat someone up for “dissing them.” I would hope a grown woman of Krissy’s obvious intelligence would have more sense than that. But no. She decides that a man in an open public place just trying to touch her warranted shoving him against a wall and putting her hand to his throat.

    I guess what Krissy should have done is pulled a gun on the guy. The good Doctor could have helped her out with the hardware.”

    And what the hell is this about “she went in a bar without you?” I’m married, and when I go to a bar, I’m there to meet friends and drink, not to hook up. I know that others don’t share my priorities, but I expect them to respect mine. Why doesn’t a woman warrant the same consideration?

  54. Wow, I’m really surprised by some of these comments.

    Personally, I say Yay for Krissy. It sounds like she can handle herself, and more importantly, knows when she should.

    There’s no reason she should have to put with assholes. And in response to the commenter that mentioned the “ugly stick”, I suggest that get his eyes checked.

  55. Paul, I suspect that particular commenter may well be, as they say, “no prize his own damn self.” The only thing I’d criticize about that shot is, it gives the impression that she needs a weapon to school motherfuckers when clearly she does not.

    And John, between my ign’ant false starts and taking up of space, please feel free to disappear me along with an admonishment to get my own blog. And tell the li’l lady I said thanks for pointing me down memory lane.

  56. That’s me above, obviously. Christ, I suck at this. Now I’m officially requesting you drop all evidence of my existence down the memory hole.

  57. Hey, John: You’re a real tough guy aren’t you?..At least you talk like one.
    /wise prick
    Why don’t you get control of your ol’ lady and keep her outta the bars, asshole?

  58. Nice.

    So if a lady doesn’t defend herself, she is just asking for it. And if she does defend herself, she’s “committed a battery. It wasn’t self defense and she’s fortunate she wasn’t arrested.”

    Not sure where y’all do your socializing, but in my neck of the woods, the cops would be scraping that drunk dude up off the parking lot.

    -GFO

  59. Crap. Well, can’t say as it gives a false impression.

    But since I’m still skulking around, may I just say that you, Anonymous–if that is your real name–have chilled me to my very core. Certainly the day for it.

  60. Pipe:

    “Why don’t you get control of your ol’ lady and keep her outta the bars, asshole?”

    Why would I want to do that? That’s how we met.

    Incidentally, I’m betting “Pipe” is an ironic nickname. Don’t worry, I won’t ask for confirmation on that.

  61. THANK YOU KRISSY!!

    If this guy learns his lesson that women aren’t to be touched without their consent, the world is a little bit safer.

    You are my hero.

  62. What’s the point of this story? That your wife got one drunk on one night to back down. Was she bigger than him? Was she stronger than him? Does she have some sort of martial arts training.

    Some may remember an episode years ago on, I think it was, “Wide World of Sports” where they were going to show how a small woman could defend herself against a much larger man because of her advanced karate training. After a few ineffective kicks she lost her temper and was flailing wildly. The guy hauled off and kicked her hard in the stomach. End of embarrassing scene.
    so my point is, Is this going to keep the next drunk the nest time from doing the same thing?
    This time maybe she was lucky.

  63. JM:

    “This time maybe she was lucky.”

    Possibly. It may also be that this time she correctly assessed the situation, and the next time (if there is a next time, as Krissy doesn’t generally go out of her way to look for trouble), she may decide the most prudent course of action is something different.

    In general folks should entertain the notion that Krissy has a brain, it works marvelously well, and that the course of action she followed was well-considered and took in the context of the situation in which she found herself.

  64. “Is this going to keep the next drunk the nest time from doing the same thing?
    This time maybe she was lucky.”

    — This is my point, John. Keep her outta the bars, fer Chrissakes. I don’t agree with you about her having lots of smarts. . . and she *is* a woman, man. WTF is wrong with you???

  65. I’m sorry, did that quote include the phrase “for JUST trying to touch her”? (emphasis mine)

    That is astounding. What a horrible world in which a woman is presumed to be on show every time she is in public and cannot expect to have autonomous control of her body.

  66. Pipe:

    “Keep her outta the bars, fer Chrissakes.”

    You know Pipe, I wish I could show you, in a visual and concrete sense, the immensity of my willingness to ignore your advice on how I should attempt to administer my wife’s life.

    As for not agreeing about her smarts, as it happens, I think it’s clear you’re an antedivulian moron, so your assessment of her smarts is even less relevant to me than your advice on running my wife’s life.

    You go now, Pipe. Thanks for sharing.

  67. OK, not to get off the bandwagon here, but may I ask whether THIS part of the comment is literally true: “She basically ignored him all night.”?

    So does that mean that she never bothered to say “I’m not interested, please go away”? And btw, I’m *not* asking this as some sort of justification for rampant jackassery. I’m making the point that before we all go around high-fiving each other and forming a mutual admiration society, is this the way we’d tell our kids to handle the situation?

    Dammit. Now I sound just like that idiot character from OMW.

  68. Okay, but. . .

    Dude, I didn’t say anything about “running” your wife’s life. You are her husband. You are supposed to take care of her. Is that “antedivulian” (sic)?
    I’m glad you’re not married to any of my daughters.

  69. Tim:

    He was told a number of times to leave her and her friends be, and they went about trying to have a good time despite him. “Ignoring” in this case means “trying to ignore.”

  70. Pipe:

    “Dude, I didn’t say anything about ‘running’ your wife’s life.”

    I see. Then how else do you suggest I “keep her out of bars”? Call me crazy, but to me this assumes that I can say to her “you stay out of bars, woman!” and she will grovel and whine and say, “yes, master,” or something like that. In fact, my wife doesn’t do any of those things. She says to me “I’m going out tonight with some friends,” and I say “Fine, have a good time.” And sometimes, I’m the one who goes out with friends, and she’s the one to tell me to have a good time.

    Beside this, why should I have to keep her out of bars? She and her friends decided that they wanted to get a drink, and they should be able to sit and have a drink without getting harrassed by some drunken fool, or to have their decision to go to a bar second-guessed by some fly-by internet commenter. The bar Krissy went to was your basic neighborhood bar; it’s not as if she went to the rapist-biker bar down on the edge of town. But even if she had gone to the rapist-biker bar at the edge of town, she still should have been able to drink her drink in peace with her friends.

    As for “supposed to take of her” — Bah. We are supposed to take care of each other, and forbidding her to enter bars to my mind doesn’t come under that particular little rubric.

    I am also glad I am not married to one of your daughters, Pipe, because I suspect I’d have to spend a lot of time convincing her she doesn’t need my permission to step out the door and enjoy some time with her friends.

  71. Great job working over the touchy-feely barfly, Mrs. Scalzi. You kick ass. I know that’s redundant, but still. *thumbs up*

  72. Pipe, go fuck yourself.

    Now, you might say that “go fuck yourself” is completely devoid of substance or wit, and while you’d be right in the strictest sense, two things:

    1) A thoughtful and clever smackdown is for those who’ve earned it.

    2) Thanks to your choice of avatars you actually CAN. No heir to Perelman I, but again I would direct you to 1).

    Sorry, John. I spent the whole weekend watching Lieberman shills get their heads handed to them on pro-Lamont threads, and it’s like when you play Tony Hawk for 8 hours nonstop and then you go outside and think “I bet I could do a trick off that bench.”

  73. John, though I shall remain a fan, I promise to never again darken your cyberdoor with my inability to work an intertubamaputer.

  74. Scalzi (‘Cause I think there was a jerk named “John” somewhere upthread)

    I don’t know any of the Insta-people personally, but from what I’ve read online I’m no fan of theirs. But I think Dr. Helen had a point, based on the facts you initially posted.

    I’m, willing to believe that the information you’re not telling us does make Krissy’s response appropriate. But that changes the post from “Here’s this cool story” to “There’s this cool story that I’m not going tell you about.” Not up to the Whatever quality I expect for my blog-reading dollar. I want my money back!

  75. Jon Marcus:

    “But that changes the post from ‘Here’s this cool story’ to ‘There’s this cool story that I’m not going tell you about.’ Not up to the Whatever quality I expect for my blog-reading dollar. I want my money back!”

    You may indeed get back all the money you’ve paid for the whatever. Just send a self-addressed stamped envelope and a non-refundable $35 processing fee. Cash only, please.

    The original story was short because a) I was heading out the door and b) I thought I was hitting the highlights of the event. It’s possible I misjudged what were the relevant parts to communicate.

  76. I don’t try to run my daughters’ lives — why, they’d laugh if they heard you saying that.
    But, while my daughters do go to bars with friends, they don’t go to bars and get into brawls with other drunks.
    If they did, I’d expect their husbands/boyfriends to watch out for them somehow — not cheer them on!
    I know you, like Emily, wish it were a world in which a woman can go anywhere and do anything a man can. But it ain’t.

    And for the anonymous guy or girl who told me to go eff myself: Now that you have cooled down, wanna try a thoughtful and clever smackdown?… Wanna defend some guy telling his wife, “You go, girl!” after she got into a bar fight? Ha, ha, be my guest.

  77. What the hell is wrong with some of these commentators? Low self-esteem? Misogyny? The hell?

    The instant that guy touched her against her consent, it was assault. You don’t need to know anything else about this story other than someone was touched without consenting to it and they reacted in self-defense.

    It’s not about the sex of either person.

  78. It’s interesting. We all make assumptions based on our view of the world and our experiences. When I read the post, I assumed that Krissy had gone through all the obvious stages of expressing disinterest through body language, verbal communication and that this guy had way, way crossed the line. Because when I go out without my husband, that’s how I handle it, though thankfully I’ve not had anyone grab me at a bar. When I do, I’d love to know how to kick ass like that. Talking is all well and good, but you can’t really reason with drunk assholes.

    Reading the other interpretations of this, leave me totally boggled. I mean, I wouldn’t want to live the life that would lead to the world views of some of the posters.

  79. So, to summarize my understanding:

    1.) Krissy is cool enough to stand up for herself.

    2.) John thinks she’s cool, and blogs about it.

    3.) Half the peanut gallery says “Hey, way cool!” and half the peanut gallery criticizes the way Krissy and/or John live their lives as described in John’s blog.

    4.) This affects Krissy and John not at all.

    5.) It’s time for lunch.

    And all is as it should be.

  80. But, while my daughters do go to bars with friends, they don’t go to bars and get into brawls with other drunks.
    Are you assuming that this was the reason why Krissy Scalzi went to the bar in the first place?

    If they did, I’d expect their husbands/boyfriends to watch out for them somehow — not cheer them on!
    Unfortunately, your expectations aren’t shared by everyone, as it’s been made clear to you already.

    I know you, like Emily, wish it were a world in which a woman can go anywhere and do anything a man can. But it ain’t.
    Maybe not, but what happened with Krissy Scalzi wasn’t a wish, it was pretty realistic.

    It’s not John Scalzi that’s talking in terms of “what should be” and “what’s correct” – that would be you, and in those terms, what occurred in the bar is completely different from what you wished could have happened. Get over it already.

  81. I had no idea there were this many weinies reading your blog, John. What appears to many of us to be a pretty good story and an admirable action on the part of your wife has got a lot of panties twisted. The world is a strange place.

    I am a long-time martial artist with extensive experience and teaching credentials. Her actions sound just-about-perfect.

  82. Macaroni:

    “I am a long-time martial artist with extensive experience and teaching credentials. Her actions sound just-about-perfect.”

    I’d agree.

    Pipe:

    “If they did, I’d expect their husbands/boyfriends to watch out for them somehow — not cheer them on!”

    Sadly, my “Krissy sense” wasn’t tingling when it happened, and I was home with my daughter, so I had neither the knowledge nor the opportunity to handle my wife’s problem. Fortunately, she managed just fine.

    I cheer her on because she rather astutely read the situation and acted correctly. She used her muscles because that’s what her brain told her was necessary.

    Also, to be clear, anyone who thinks Krissy should rely on me for defense in a potential physical altercation really just doesn’t know us. My wife is substantially more physically imposing than I am, and also substantially stronger. And I’m not exactly a wimp, so that should tell you something. Krissy doesn’t need me to defend her. Especially when I’m not actually there.

  83. Oh, well…
    We all have opinions.
    I hope Krissy is careful, that’s all. I think she was lucky that time.
    All my best to you John. And sorry for calling you an a-hole earlier.
    –Pipe

  84. Pipe:

    “I hope Krissy is careful, that’s all. I think she was lucky that time.”

    Indeed, this may be true. I do trust that she was careful.

    “All my best to you John. And sorry for calling you an a-hole earlier.”

    No worries; once we drilled down there was some good stuff to discuss. Thanks for that. You’re welcome any time.

  85. First the trolls are upset and say that us liberals are too damn weak to defend or fight for ourselves. And then the trolls are upset because we do defend and fight for ourselves. I wish they would make up their minds.

  86. Count me in with the “Krissy rocks” camp, because, while it’s always been evident before, this incident merely emphasizes the obvious.

    Those idiots who insinuate that Krissy got what was coming to her because she dared to venture into a bar without the supervision of her husband (and that her response was outta line) would do well to realize that these things don’t happen just to women who are “asking for it”.

    To use my own experience as an illustration, was I “asking for it” when, as a sixteen year old walking home from school in broad daylight, holding a stack of textbooks so it was obvious I wasn’t an adult (I tended to look older than my years back then), a man rode up on a bicycle, stopped in front of me and proceeded to grope everything he could grope? I was dressed in a long-sleeved turtleneck under a knee length sundress – maybe it was my clothing that screamed, “Assault Me.”

    Was I outta line for pushing him away, knocking him off of his bicycle onto the cement and running home as fast as I could, especially since he got right back on his bike and followed me out onto a busy street, trying the same shit? Thank heavens I was close to home at the time.

    Man, what a teasing butch hussy I was back then, just asking to be assaulted by walking down the street.

    My only regret is that I didn’t injure him and that I didn’t report it to anyone, not even my family.

    Krissy’s actions were completely right. And as for the trolls, come and tell me to my face that a woman practicing self-defense is wrong. You’ll see what violence really is.

  87. She would probably have had a nicer evening if she’d done that when he first started…

    Probably, but if a slow escalation has the visiting meatheads all het up, imagine how they’d react if she’d brought the pain early on!

  88. This thread boggles me.

    Are people really this terrified of a woman who stands up for herself? Do we really need Dr. Internet to pathologize her from the comfort of a Barca-lounger in another state? On the basis of a blog post?

    People suck.

  89. Now, not to blow it out of proportion, but if this keeps up, we’re going to have a Lifetime Movie of the Week with Mickey Rourke and Tori Spelling and a high-speed, gun-blazing shoot-out through the backwater of Ohio’s Amish community.

  90. Dan:

    Now, not to blow it out of proportion, but if this keeps up, we’re going to have a Lifetime Movie of the Week with Mickey Rourke and Tori Spelling and a high-speed, gun-blazing shoot-out through the backwater of Ohio’s Amish community.

    Finally, a Lifetime movie I might want to see. Who will play the intrepid husband, Campbell Award winner John Scalzi? And will the diadem have any lines?

  91. …we’re going to have a Lifetime Movie of the Week with Mickey Rourke and Tori Spelling…

    Oo! I got titles.

    Mother, May I Play With Blunt Objects?
    Not Without My Baseball Bat
    Confessions of a Woman Who’s Had It Up To
    Here With This Drunken Jackhole

  92. The picture is mis-captioned. It should read: This is an American Woman.
    Seen the marriage statistics lately?
    No wonder the foreign-bride businesses are booming. What man in possession of his own mind would want that?

  93. Baron Waste, just because you apparently cannot make time with any woman who can speak your own language, and therefore knows what sort of jackassery comes out of your head, doesn’t mean the rest of us suffer from the same problem.

  94. What’s the point of this story? That your wife got one drunk on one night to back down. Was she bigger than him? Was she stronger than him? Does she have some sort of martial arts training.

    None of that should matter. I, or Krissy, or any other woman, no matter size, physical condition, or martial arts abilities should be able to have a drink, or two, or three in any bar without someone attempting to invade the conversation or our personal space or to touch our persons without our consent.

    And honestly, when someone does invade our space and touch us, then we are no less justified in using force to repel or defend ourselves than any man would be in similar circumstances.

    I mean, guys, if some drunk dude kept trying to get in on your perfectly normal Saturday-night conversation, and grabbed at you when you’d told him to leave you alone, repeatedly, what exactly would you do differently?

    Would you allow this ill-mannered individual to drive you and your friends to another table? Another part of the bar? Another watering hole?

    Would you allow him to grab you?

    Would you compassionately and gently engage him in conversation, because you assume that it’s your job to minister to every lonley dude in the bar?

    Would you look at his hand on your person in frozen disbelief and then run crying into the bathroom?

    I’m trying to think of other possible responses that involve no more force than John describes Krissy employing, and drawing a blank here.

    (And, lest anyone be wondering, I admire Krissy’s response: she asserted her space and her right to enjoy her Saturday night without unwanted company and she didn’t break anything or anyone)

  95. Strike that last – that was a base, mean thing for me to say about someone I don’t know. I do apologize.

  96. Indeed? Then you may wish to look to your own comments, for I at least have the grace to acknowledge when I don’t know what I’m talking about.

    I could write elegies about the lovely, graceful, feminine women all around the world who were not born under the black noonday of militant American feminism – women who would look at the image heading this column with the same horror, pity and laughter that her own grandparents’ generation would feel – but I will content myself by pointing out the main fallacy in your “response”: Obviously you have to speak your wife’s language as well or better than she speaks yours (whether it’s the same language or not!) or you’ll never know what she’s really thinking – you’ll never really know her.

    If you had thought before you dashed off that little jab of yours, you’d have realized this commmon sense.

  97. Of course Chrissy was 100% correct, with or without more details to the story. If he touched her, she was justified. Because if Chrissy doesn’t defend herself, then the terrorists truly have won.

  98. Baron Waste:

    “I at least have the grace to acknowledge when I don’t know what I’m talking about.”

    Which is good, because apparently you don’t, and often. Among the things you don’t know is how my wife’s grandparents, as members of their generation or otherwise, would feel about anything. Unlike you, I’ve known Krissy’s grandparents (the grandmothers, at the very least), and I would suggest to you that they would laugh in your face if you were to say they should look upon that picture with horror. And then they would probably tell you that you were a rude and vulgar man for insulting their granddaughter and making assumptions about them without basis. And it would be difficult to say they would not be correct.

    Perhaps you like living in a world where all the women are meek and subservient and defenseless or whatever fatuous paradigm of femininity that you appear to have floating about in your brain, based on your comments here. However, I don’t live there, nor does my wife, nor does my daughter, and for the sake of all three of us, I’m glad that by and large nor does the rest of the United States.

  99. I was just passing through and I have to congratulate your wife for 1) standing up for herself and 2) not killing the man. I did martial arts for a little, and among other things they taught us at the lower level is, “If you’re not skilled enough at holds, then aim for the kill.” Your wife didn’t kill him, he (hopefully) learned a valuable lesson, and I’m just sorry that so many of the other commenters see this is somehow a degredation of feminity, because damnit! That was awesome what your wife did.

  100. Perhaps you like living in a world where all the women are meek and subservient and defenseless or whatever fatuous paradigm of femininity that you appear to have floating about in your brain

    Nope – wrong again:

    … Feminists of course say that femininity cannot be distinguished from subservience. But it ain’t so. The Mexicanas I know are not subservient. They work harder and bitch less than we do. They are not weak. They do not need support groups, Depacote, Paxil, Welbutrin, or classes in self-esteem (which idea they find puzzling or ridiculous). They are self-sufficient adults.

    There is for the Mexicana a difference of centrality. Her focus is on her home, her man, and her children. She sees her job as a way to support her family instead of, as happens northward, the other way around. Her home is more important to her than her office. Making partner at Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe is not her reason for living…

    For gringas, Mexican women are tough competition. The embittered single American women in my town do not understand why, believing that men only want young Mexican bodies. Everything, they assume, must be sex.

    Yeah. Sure.

    Now, young and beautiful has its charm. Men do not, as a rule, seek out the aged. But—and I know many of these men well—what draws them is the warmth and womanliness of the Mexicana. In Mexico you don’t marry one of the guys. You don’t marry a child-support bomb waiting to explode without visitation. You don’t marry a hundred pounds of irrational anger looking for an excuse. You marry a woman. The difference… my God, the difference…

    =\\=\\=\\=\\=\\=

    … Ukrainian women seem to simply appreciate and respect men more. Not in a subservient way, but as a complement to a man. That is the sincere desire for most of them. American women pre-feminism were like this and also never as subservient as the media likes to portray them today. Most were very happy being wives and mothers until that route became demonized by the intelligentsia. They were told they were unhappy and became that way.

    Ukrainian women smile often, around me at least, and seem sincerely touched when given a compliment. After life in America again for a year, it was very refreshing to be in Ukraine, like water in the desert… I was never given the cold shoulder or given this look that said “how dare you consider dating me!”

    Unfortunately, that seems to be the tone for being a man in America. It was when I lived in Syracuse and when I grew up in Washington DC. In Germany as well as Ukraine, I have always had an easy time meeting women. When they are far prettier and elegant than the women back home who looked down on you, it becomes an easy choice quickly…

    =\\=\\=\\=\\=\\=

    This is all, of course, off the main topic; but as you cannot seem to resist personal attacks that are as out of place as they are off target – this, despite your comments about ad hominem attacks! – I felt I should give you some idea of what you are talking about, lest you remain entirely bereft.

  101. Baron Waste: “the black noonday of militant American feminism”

    Oh. My. I’ve been chuckling for about the last five minutes at this wonderful example of overblown rhetoric.

  102. My, what a bunch of folderol.

    Krissy: My compliments on handling the situation.

    John: My compliments on handling the subsequent situation here.

    In general the comments against her actions are about what I expect; people who are, strangely, threatened/appalled/offended that a woman stuck up for herself, absent a man (and the people who have implied you ought to have been there/not allowed her out, so you could protect her, well I’ve met people like that, but can’t really comprehend the mindset).

    From what you’ve said (and from what I inferred from general comments in the past) I never read anything into it other than appropriate response to inappropriate behavior, and had there been no hullabaloo, I’d not have thought it worth a comment (though to rebut someone else, I’d expect lots of people, myself perhaps among them, to comment on this sort of thing, irrespective of gender).

  103. I think you certainly have a point when you say that you know what happened then, and that others don’t. Your initial description was a bit off though. There is a big difference between “touch” and “grab”. There are also a lot of different types of grab.

    Anyway, it sounds like this fellow should have gone away a bit earlier. I wasn’t there, and Krissy’s actions did defuse the situation. Beyond that, if I unambiguously told someone not to touch me, and they did, I would not hesitate to teach them some listening skills, if I felt it warranted.

    I do think you should take one criticism, if it can be called that, seriously. Even if Krissy’s armbar to the throat was right as rain, it was a dangerous thing to do. I was a bit of a brawler in my youth, and I bear the scars (and a limp), and always will. I do believe that I was right in every instance- it did not save me from harm.

    Be careful- it is amusing to make posters of your wife with a baseball bat, but the fact that she can kick your ass is not meaningful. I would take that bat away from her as I would take a rattle from a child- well, I don’t think I would have to as I don’t generally play grabass with people who don’t want me to.

    When you put an arm to someone’s throat you have started something, and the end of it might be quite dark. I am not talking about right and wrong, but about the real and the fantastic. The real does not care a whit about right and wrong, but it will grind you up if you’re unlucky.

  104. Baron Waste:

    Ironically, Krissy is matrilineal line is Mexican. She’s hard-working, family-oriented, and cares quite well for her man — all the things you are waxing so poetically about — and yet she’s also thoroughly her own woman, which is something that you apparently have a problem with.

    All of this appears to go back to the evident issue that you have a problem with American women. There’s not a damn thing wrong with American femininity, other than it’s not to your liking. That’s your problem, and what you apparently fail to realize is that American women are not problematic merely because you have a problem with American women.

    “This is all, of course, off the main topic; but as you cannot seem to resist personal attacks”

    You mean to say I can’t resist pointing out that I think your reasoning is idiotic, narrow-minded and misogynist. I can see why you might take that personally, since apparently you’re under the impression that you’re an enlightened celebrator of women. However, I don’t really see much of that, and I’m not inclined to suggest that I do, or that I think you are.

    As for personal attacks, I’ll note that I say in my comment preface that the proprietor (that’s me) feels perfectly free to respond to posts in the manner which they are given. You started the insults by implictly suggesting I was out of my mind to marry my wife, and implicitly suggesting that my wife was not worth marrying. That was a fairly asshole thing to suggest, Baron Waste, even if it was economical by insulting both me and my wife at one go. So I felt entirely comfortable thumping on your sorry, American-woman-despising ass.

    Moreover, in my opinion every post you’ve made here continues to implicitly criticize my wife for not being these things you apparently think women should be, as an extension of your original thesis. And perhaps that fact that I feel you’ve never stopped insulting my wife for being who she is, even though as a point of fact you have no idea who she is, makes me less inclined to treat you or your ideas with the dignity and respect you seem to feel you and they are entitled to. It’s nice that you backed up one specific insult to my wife, for which you were duly thanked by me. However, the original insult to my wife (and incidentally, to me) remains and persists over your entire commentary. I suppose that may make me a little less concerned with your feelings.

    You tell me, Baron Waste, since you’re a big fan of men defending their women when the woman’s honor has been insulted. If some fellow comes around to your place, insults your wife and then spends several long paragraphs continuing to insult her, shouldn’t this fellow be treated like inconsiderate jackassed neanderthal woman-fearing dickhead he so clearly appears to be?

    All things considered, sir, you have been treated rather better than you deserve. The fact you appear to feel that you have not is, frankly, appalling.

  105. Thegraymauser:

    “I do think you should take one criticism, if it can be called that, seriously. Even if Krissy’s armbar to the throat was right as rain, it was a dangerous thing to do.”

    Indeed, duly noted. I’ll pass the comment along to her.

  106. Baron Waste,

    I’m curious to know what has led you to hold such strong beliefs regarding American women.

    Would you care to share any details?

  107. What’s the point of this story? That your wife got one drunk on one night to back down. Was she bigger than him? Was she stronger than him? Does she have some sort of martial arts training.

    None of that should matter. I, or Krissy, or any other woman, no matter size, physical condition, or martial arts abilities should be able to have a drink, or two, or three in any bar without someone attempting to invade the conversation or our personal space or to touch our persons without our consent.

    And honestly, when someone does invade our space and touch us, then we are no less justified in using force to repel or defend ourselves than any man would be in similar circumstances.

    I mean, guys, if some drunk dude kept trying to get in on your perfectly normal Saturday-night conversation, and grabbed at you when you’d told him to leave you alone, repeatedly, what exactly would you do differently?

    Would you allow this ill-mannered individual to drive you and your friends to another table? Another part of the bar? Another watering hole?

    Would you allow him to grab you?

    Would you compassionately and gently engage him in conversation, because you assume that it’s your job to minister to every lonley dude in the bar?

    Would you look at his hand on your person in frozen disbelief and then run crying into the bathroom?

    I’m trying to think of other possible responses that involve no more force than John describes Krissy employing, and drawing a blank here.

    (And, lest anyone be wondering, I admire Krissy’s response: she asserted her space and her right to enjoy her Saturday night without unwanted company and she didn’t break anything or anyone)

  108. The picture is mis-captioned. It should read:
    This is an American Woman.
    Seen the marriage statistics lately?

    No wonder the foreign-bride businesses are booming. What man in possession of his own mind would want that?

    Coming from the subset of the American population that might be defined as “male American SF/Fantasy geeks who grew up in the 1980s,” I’d point out that our list of sex symbols included Sarah Connor (played by Linda Hamilton) and Ellen Ripley (played by Sigourney Weaver). (Indeed, friends of mine even gave their firstborn daughter the middle name Ripley.)

    You might argue that we nerds are not in possession of our own minds, although that seems silly. (You might also note that this blog is the property of a science-fiction writer, and infer that some or all of the usual visitors, correspondents and lurkers are SF/Fantasy geeks of some nationality, age or gender.)

    (Also, one might extend the archetype presented by these two women to cover almost every heroine in almost every James Cameron movie—apparently the gentleman shares our idea of what makes for an attractive, interesting woman.)

    The main difference between the way one of our fictional heroines supra handled this situation and the way Krissy Scalzi handled it is that the fictional characters would have drawn blood. A broken nose, most likely. One might therefore conclude that the real Mrs. Scalzi showed admirable restraint. But that really wasn’t the point I wanted to make: the real point was that there are many millions of men (and probably women) who have just cause to be jealous of John Scalzi’s domestic situation. Who would want a strong, intelligent, independent, attractive wife who apparently is willing to put up with (or shares) her husband’s interest in stories about spaceships and robots? Who indeed?

    ‘Nuff said.

  109. CLARIFICATION: part of Baron Whathisname’s post that I quoted should have been italicized: “No wonder the foreign-bride businesses are booming. What man in possession of his own mind would want that?” were his words from his earlier post. Which is probably clear. I’m being paranoid.

  110. “You don’t know if he was pathetically lonely or desperate; unless you were there you don’t know anything about the particulars of this drunk other than what I’ve told you.”

    “Since you weren’t there, you haven’t the slightest idea whether this was true or not, so your opinion on the matter counts for nothing.”

    John, you weren’t there either. However, when I originally read the story, I got the impression that you in fact were there witnessing all this, which was why I asked you on Dr. Helen’s blog why you didn’t simply step in and say “leave my wife alone” to the drunk. Your reply over there implied that I was being some sort of troglodyte.

    Now that I know that Krissy was there without you, I have to say that she was VERY lucky. If this drunk had had a couple more drinks in him, or if he had been some sort of misogynistic boor, this could have ended in tragedy.

    Your protestations about what a woman should be able to do would surely ring hollow if this had gone badly, as it so easily could have. Nine times out of ten, she would be all right after doing the forearm-to-the-neck persuasion. That tenth time however, you would have ended up visiting Krissy in the hospital. Somehow I think that her being in the right would provide you with no comfort.

    The fact is, in a physical altercation a woman is simply no match for a man. Thank your lucky stars that this obnoxious drunk backed down.

  111. Ed Minchau:

    “Your reply over there implied that I was being some sort of troglodyte.”

    Well, Mr. Minchau, weren’t you? Did you not make the assumption that my wife needed me to intervene on her behalf? She did not and she does not. Even if I had been there, and events proceeded as they had (which included this fellow being told several times to take a hike), I would be more likely to follow my wife’s lead in dealing with the issue. She is a strong, capable and intelligent woman, and I trust her judgment. If she wanted or needed me to deal with it, quite clearly I would. But I know my wife, rather better than you do, and I suspect she would have dealt with it herself, with me as a ready and willing assistant.

    Now, perhaps it’s your opinion that in this matter, if I were there, I should have taken the lead, but honestly, I couldn’t care less what you think about it. You’re not me, you’re not married to my wife, and you haven’t the slightest clue as to the dynamic of our relationship. You don’t get a vote as to how it functions.

    “The fact is, in a physical altercation a woman is simply no match for a man.”

    Ah, this is such bullshit. My wife is tremendously strong and more than capable of handling herself physically. My ex-girlfriend from college has a second-degree black belt in karate. I have another woman friend who was Special Forces. Any three of these women I would wager would be as capable as most men in a physical situation. Any three of them, I can confidently state, can probably kick my ass without much problem, and by height, weight and strength I am pretty much exactly the average American male.

    You might say that the average woman is no match in a physical altercation with the average male, and you may be right. But in all cases? Bullshit. There are lots of women who are strong, there are lots of women who know how to defend themselves, and there are lots of women who have the will to dominate a physical situation. Lots of women are some combination of all three.

    The problem here with all this patronizing “oh, your wife is lucky” talk from you and others is that it generally underestimates my wife’s intelligence, which I find annoying. Krissy is very smart, and determined what the best course of action was in this particular event. It’s possible my wife was lucky; it’s rather more likely that she was intelligent and acted with thought and intent and from the knowledge that she was acting appropriately.

  112. The fact is, in a physical altercation a woman is simply no match for a man. Thank your lucky stars that this obnoxious drunk backed down.

    The huh?

    Mr. Minchau, I call overgeneralization.

    I may not be a match for every man, but as a woman of average strength and no unusual fightin’ skillz, I can quite successfully gauge when to stand up for my space and when I’m over my head.

    You may be justified in saying that an average woman is rarely a match for an average man in a physical altercation.

    In this instance, Krissy’s action disproves your assertaion. Krissy is a woman. She convinced a man to leave her alone. She was, therefore, a “match” for said man, in a physical altercation.

    I have been known to come out on top in the odd tussle against a man. So I too disprove your blanket assertion.

    And what do you mean “if” the drunk had been a misogynistic boor? From John’s report, he bothered Krissy, refused to take no for an answer, refused to go away, and grabbed her. I don’t know the fellow, but I’m betting he wouldn’t have grabbed a man. This kind of disrespectful act constitutes misogyny. Creating a space in which women might be justified in feeling they are unsafe constitutes misogyny. Harrassing a woman because she’s a woman in a bar constitutes misogyny. Any anti-social action perpetrated against a woman that the perpetrator would not perpetrate against a man, all other factors being equivalent, constitutes misogyny. And grabbing other people and being a nuisance, especially after repeated requests to go away, is certainy boorish.

  113. Ed –

    I’ve knocked out grown men twice my size. You’d be surprised what a woman can do with a little training, and some self-confidence.

    Trust me, I’m dangerous when provoked.

  114. Good grief all you feminist cheerleaders. Keep in mind that the guy was instantly terrified for legal reasons that he would have to defend himself physically with a large number of witnesses. If he had knocked out a few of her teeth for putting her forearm against his trachea, he would have done prison time. He knew it, and most importantly, she knew it.
    She also knew that she would have had everyone else in the bar immediately on her side if the guy took a swing, and he would have probably been hurt badly by the other men there.
    More importantly, he knew it.
    Don’t see the bravery. Just a chick who watches too much Xena and Buffy and took advantage of a situation to feel powerful.

  115. Really, Redneck Joe? And you’ve spoken to the man in question, right? So you know exactly what happened and why?

    No? Hmmm. Interesting.

    You know, what I really like is that so many people have come to this thread, pulled a steaming pile of crap straight out of their ass, held it up with pride and said “Hey! Look! A fact!” Really, it just makes me tingle.

  116. You sure do know a lot about what went through the heads of people you barely know anything about in a situation that you have minimal details of, don’t you?

  117. Well, it’s nice to see that you’re delighted to sit in a cloud of your own ignorance and call it “common sense,” Redneck Joe. When you actually have the ability to speak to something that you have even the slightest idea about, you do let me know. Until then, you get filed away as yet another person who feels uniquely qualified to talk out of his ass — i.e., what you have to say stinks and really isn’t worth listening to.

  118. I’m outta here. I never read this blog before. Just dropped in for a quick read after being linked from Vox Day’s site.
    Best wishes. Later.

  119. You started the insults by implictly suggesting I was out of my mind to marry my wife, and implicitly suggesting that my wife was not worth marrying

    Ah, so that’s what hit a nerve. Yes, in retrospect you couldn’t help but see it that way.

    I don’t know your wife. I don’t know the drunk, either. I’m commenting on the situation described, merely, and the one time I overstepped that and made a personal remark I did indeed back off.

    As I ought to do entirely; for all that she is physically stronger than you (a frank observation that surprised me) you nonetheless can and will rise up to defend your wife at need. Despite decades of social counter-conditioning, it seems American manhood has not been neutered after all – and none of your affairs are any business of mine.

    In short, sir, I will apologize to you and to your wife for any perceived insults; none were intended – and bid you good day.

  120. I think this story is likely a gross exaggeration.

    Women that respond like that, regardless of cause, are going to get their face punched in by 99 men in 100. Please don’t get all Helen Ready “I am woman, hear me roar”. Women that think they are tough are just silly.

  121. Irwin Fletcher:

    You’re free to think what you want, Mr. Fletcher, although what you think and what happened are two separate things. But I wouldn’t want you to bother your beautiful mind about it.

    Let me guess, you came from Vox’s site as well?

  122. Hey, Irwin, are those flickr photos yours?!

    I mean many people like their computers and all but to put a photo on flickr is, well, lame.

    But please, continue with your lecture. We all appreciate the learned viewpoints about women from a 22 year old guy from Wales who has no job. Oh, and is unmarried. Big surprise, that last one.

  123. “Don’t see the bravery. Just a chick who watches too much Xena and Buffy and took advantage of a situation to feel powerful.”

    Ah…so when men defend themselves its because they’ve been watching He-Man and Power Rangers?

  124. >Good grief all you feminist cheerleaders. Keep in mind that the guy was instantly terrified for legal reasons that he would have to defend himself physically with a large number of witnesses. If he had knocked out a few of her teeth for putting her forearm against his trachea, he would have done prison time. He knew it, and most importantly, she knew it.
    She also knew that she would have had everyone else in the bar immediately on her side if the guy took a swing, and he would have probably been hurt badly by the other men there.
    More importantly, he knew it.
    Don’t see the bravery. Just a chick who watches too much Xena and Buffy and took advantage of a situation to feel powerful.

    And the reason why she had the law and every single person in the bar on her side?
    Because she was in the right to do what she did.
    So his response, the drunken apology, was perfectly proportionate to her response, the arm against the throat, which was in turn perfectly proportionate to his response of groping her, which was way, way, way out of line considering her response of ignoring him and then telling him to go away to his response of hitting on her which was a response to her good looks.
    Everything that she did was perfectly proportionate to what he did; everything he did would have been good responses if she hadn’t given him multiple “go away” cues, and were very very bad responses with those cues being there.
    He didn’t get it when she ignored him. He didn’t get it when she told him to go away, she wasn’t interested. Do you really think that he would have gotten it with any other response other than physically restraining him? Honestly?

  125. I don’t know about the steaming pile out of Redneck’s ass, but all the warrior princesses here have definitely got me atingle.

  126. I can’t believe some of the crap I’ve been reading here, people calling out John’s wife for sticking up for herself.

    Women who think they’re tough are actually LESS LIKELY to get into trouble because assholes tend to leave them alone. This is a fact.

    Women – and men – who act like victims will become victims. Any competent self-defense or martial arts instructor will tell you this.

    John, I’d marry your wife anyday. You both rock, and don’t let any of the rednecks tell you otherwise.

    Hopefully Athena is growing up with the same sense of self-confidence. Personally, I’d feel pretty good if any daughter of mine grew up knowing how to squash a man’s scrotum to pulp if and when she needed to.

  127. sweet fucking christ, the amount of open misogyny in the comments here is fucking staggering.
    john, there’s not a damn thing wrong with what your wife did and it’s simply a shame that she was put into that position in the first place by some sexist piece of shit.
    (and is it just me, or is there a disturbing amount of men commenting here that seem really excited about the idea of violence against women?)
    kudos to your wife, and kudos to you for supporting her.

  128. Anonymous:

    “you think its bad her read over at Vox…the King of Idiots!”

    You know, I’m content to let Vox do his own thing in his own space.

  129. Lovely story! I am impressed by the appropriate use of just enough force as a suitable reply under the circumstances. Given how much trouble this can give even seasoned, trained police officers, it is certainly to be admired in a man or a woman, but most especially in one’s own spouse.

    If I ever have the chance, I’d be honored if your wife would let me buy her a round.

  130. What I said is a pretty common viewpoint in the parallel thread (Dr Helen). I still happened to have this window open after reading it. Before I closed it I realized that I had signed off on this thread before noticing your parting shot. You really don’t handle disagreement well with all of the ass and fecal stuff in your responses.
    The Xena and Buffy comment was obviously figurative.
    In the rest of my post, there is nothing that is out of an “ass,” or “steaming crap.”
    Again I did not have to be there to make the general statement I made. It applies to any situation where a woman would try to physically humiliate an annoying man in a bar.
    I don’t care enough about this PC argument to read any more, but I also liked the people in the other post who point out that the story conveniently changed from “tried to touch” to “grabbed.” And yes I saw your evasive explanation of that in the other thread.
    What a surprise.
    Get in all the vulgar last words you want. I won’t be reading another one of these threads. Yeah, that’s what you said last time, Redneck Joe, blah, blah. I know.
    I prefer a litle more balance in a culture war.
    And it is funny that the main criticism of my post is that I wasn’t there and am trying to talk about something I know nothing about. But of course all the reflexive girl power posts are from people who were there.

  131. Anonymous (aka Redneck Joe):

    “You really don’t handle disagreement well with all of the ass and fecal stuff in your responses.”

    I handle disagreement fine. But when you talk out of your ass, I’m not going to pretend you’re not just shoveling shit.

    What you can’t handle is the fact I have absolutely no respect for you trying to peddle your ignorance of the situation as common sense. Now, you’re trying to suggest you were making some sort of “general statement.” In fact your statement wasn’t “general”; you were talking about the specific incident as if you had knowledge of what happened. You don’t, you never did, and the fact you’re trying to backtrack into a claim of a “general statement” won’t fly. So it appears you don’t know what you’re saying, on more than one level.

    Take your ignorance elsewhere. It’s getting boring.

  132. First off Baron Wasteland has been one of the few pleasant surprises in this latest (to use the recently popular and way overused word) kerfuffle. It is not easy to change your stance when confronted with new information and I respect him for that.

    Other than that the only ‘fun’ part is to see what happens to obnoxious people when they get outside of their comfort zone. It seems like it is usually a variant of:

    – Obnoxious person uses his usual tactic of making an insulting, ignorant statement.
    – He gets called on it.
    – He tries to defend the indefensible.
    – He makes some lame attempt to save face.
    – Finally he goes away.

    It is really very predictable.

  133. This very morning, I was acosted by a guy on my way to work. Yes, he got more than a little belligerent when I refused to play his game of “I know you, yeah, I got your phone number. I got it from you last year.” All the while stepping closer and closer to me. And me getting angrier by the minute and getting a good hold on my bag just in case I was going to swing at him.

    Because, you know what, in situations like this, there’s no such thing as an ‘adult’ response. If there’s going to be an escalation, then I have to be ready to deal with it and sometimes running away is not even an option given that he was less than a foot away and could easily reach out and grab.

    As a woman I have every right to do what I have to do to keep myself, my person, safe and if that means someone gets beat down as an object lesson then so be it. I have to be ready to defend myself because I can’t count on someone else to do it for me.

    Some of you who are complaining about Krissy’s behavior: try going through a day being verbally acosted, being told that you’re not being nice because you didn’t smile, didn’t respond to bull that someone threw at you. Try having guys roll up on you physically because they feel that they can and that they will get away with it. In my case, I was as tall and a physical match for the person who decided that they had to get in my face. That didn’t stop him. Loudly asking him to back off of me didn’t stop him. Me telling him I was not even remotely interested in what he had to say didn’t do it either. Finally, he left me alone and that’s only after he popped off usual “bitch, why’d you have to be so mean?” salvo.

    If anything, I’m glad Krissy had the wherewithall to take care of herself. A lot of other women would suck up and take it, feel embarrassed like it was their fault, or get angry at themselves for doing nothing.

    Enough is enough.

  134. “Your reply over there implied that I was being some sort of troglodyte.”

    Well, Mr. Minchau, weren’t you? Did you not make the assumption that my wife needed me to intervene on her behalf?

    No, I made the (incorrect) assumption that you were actually there witnessing all of this going on. If on the other hand he is present, then I don’t see how it is unreasonable for a man to tell a drunk to stop bothering his wife, before it escalates to groping and physical violence.

    The problem here with all this patronizing “oh, your wife is lucky” talk from you and others is that it generally underestimates my wife’s intelligence, which I find annoying.

    Your wife’s intelligence is not in question here. Her ability to defend herself physically, against every man to whom she tries this forearm-on-throat technique, is.

    The fact is, there are some truly dangerous men in the world – including some who aren’t averse to hitting women. Would your annoyance give you comfort if this drunk had turned out to be one of those men, and had put your wife in the hospital, or the morgue? (and yes, a single punch can kill – it’s usually a fluke when it happens, but it does happen)

    In this instance Krissy convinced him to back down. He still had enough judgement left to do so (although he was decidedly lacking in judgement for grabbing your wife inappropriately in the first place). What if he had had a few more drinks under his belt? What if his judgement was that much more impaired, and he had responded to your wife’s forearm-on-throat attack with a punch of his own rather than considering the consequences?

    I have worked in bars before. I have seen a very similar situation go very badly for the woman involved.

    John, I want you to know that I am not trying to be confrontational here with you; I just want you to consider that Krissy put herself into a very dangerous position here. If she is going to get into physical altercations with drunken men in the future, she better take a page from La Gringa’s book and make sure she knocks the guy out. Either that, or find a way to extricate herself from such a situation – the better part of valor, ya know?

  135. Well, Ed, I do in fact appreciate the concern, so thanks. I don’t want to appear to minimize the risk of a physical altercation, either.

    What I do want to communicate is my faith that my wife would not have put herself into a physical situation that she did not feel confident she could control; she’d had a good amount of time to read this fellow (during the time she and her friends were trying to brush him off), so I think she made the determination based on observation of his capabilities. She doesn’t do the forearm-to-neck maneuver on a regular basis, to be sure, and I don’t think it would be the first thing she’d do in any subsequent, similar encounter (or the second).

    In any event, her read of the situation was correct in this case. I suspect that should there be a future and similar event, she will also use due deliberation before embarking on any course of action, whatever it may be.

  136. I’m coming by late in the game, but I just want to add my admiration for Krissy’s entirely appropriate response, and for yours, John. You’re always a pleasure to read, but especially when you’re telling people off. :)

  137. All right, I’m closing this thread to comments. Reasons:

    1. It’s pretty damn long, with a representative sample of viewpoints;

    2. As long as it’s open it’ll be distracting to me because, after all, it involves my wife, which is no good because

    3. I have a book I’m supposed to be finishing.

    I may open it up again in the somewhat near future, i.e., after I feel I’ve made sufficient progress on my book.

    Thanks to everyone who participated.

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