<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Big Idea: Lewis Shiner</title>
	<atom:link href="http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/</link>
	<description>I FORGET WHAT EIGHT WAS FOR</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 23:58:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anders</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anders]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 03:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I finished Lew&#039;s book this weekend, and it&#039;s one of the best books I&#039;ve read in years. The narrative is superb, and I found myself stealing away from all my daily tasks just to read the book. I have lived and traveled in areas with trains and other public transportation, and currently live in Texas, where a car is vital. Within urban areas subways and trains are great (try to find parking downtown in a major city), though crowded and on a schedule that may not always fit your own. The issue about cars and public transportation aside, this book&#039;s story covers a lot of areas. The way government and business cooperate to muscle out landowners for highways or other &quot;public good&quot; projects continue to this day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I finished Lew&#8217;s book this weekend, and it&#8217;s one of the best books I&#8217;ve read in years. The narrative is superb, and I found myself stealing away from all my daily tasks just to read the book. I have lived and traveled in areas with trains and other public transportation, and currently live in Texas, where a car is vital. Within urban areas subways and trains are great (try to find parking downtown in a major city), though crowded and on a schedule that may not always fit your own. The issue about cars and public transportation aside, this book&#8217;s story covers a lot of areas. The way government and business cooperate to muscle out landowners for highways or other &#8220;public good&#8221; projects continue to this day.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RES</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RES]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Folk would do well to remember that much &quot;public transportation&quot; carries external costs as well. When in college my brother had an apartment alongside the train tracks. Let&#039;s just say he didn&#039;t store a lot of things on wall shelves, eh?

And those tracks tended not to traverse the &quot;better&quot; neighborhoods, did they? No, they were conveniently nearby. Let&#039;s not forget that the toffs have the option of taxis and limos (how you think those folks on the Today Show get there?)

As for commuting by car, audio books are equally suitable for that and tend to make the trip far more productive. Why, I&#039;ve recently finished LotR and will be staring on McCullough&#039;s Truman soon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folk would do well to remember that much &#8220;public transportation&#8221; carries external costs as well. When in college my brother had an apartment alongside the train tracks. Let&#8217;s just say he didn&#8217;t store a lot of things on wall shelves, eh?</p>
<p>And those tracks tended not to traverse the &#8220;better&#8221; neighborhoods, did they? No, they were conveniently nearby. Let&#8217;s not forget that the toffs have the option of taxis and limos (how you think those folks on the Today Show get there?)</p>
<p>As for commuting by car, audio books are equally suitable for that and tend to make the trip far more productive. Why, I&#8217;ve recently finished LotR and will be staring on McCullough&#8217;s Truman soon.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RES</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RES]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 05:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;These are the days of $4 a gallon gas here in the US, a fact which does not generate much sympathy from most other people in the world (who saw the back end of $4 gas a long time ago) &lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yust a minute dere, feller! Dee $4 a gallon gas dat Youropeens bin buyin&#039; (actually, more like $5 or $6 -- you have to translate liters to gallons and figure exchange rates) costed dee same as ours (in America.)

Strip away the gasoline taxes and the prices were the same last time I looked -- admittedly a decade or so ago, last time folks were comparing Eurogas and American. But the Euros have been taxing gas at a far higher rate, making their retail, at the pump price, much higher. What the heck - didja think Eurogas was so much more expensive to refine or import from the M.E.?

The big difference has been that taxes on American gasoline have been dedicated to highway construction and maintenance (at least until the Clinton Administration started picking that particular pocket) while Eurogas went into the general fund, enriching bureaucrats (in America the payola was limiting to politicians&#039; friends in the highway construction business.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>These are the days of $4 a gallon gas here in the US, a fact which does not generate much sympathy from most other people in the world (who saw the back end of $4 gas a long time ago) </p></blockquote>
<p>Yust a minute dere, feller! Dee $4 a gallon gas dat Youropeens bin buyin&#8217; (actually, more like $5 or $6 &#8212; you have to translate liters to gallons and figure exchange rates) costed dee same as ours (in America.)</p>
<p>Strip away the gasoline taxes and the prices were the same last time I looked &#8212; admittedly a decade or so ago, last time folks were comparing Eurogas and American. But the Euros have been taxing gas at a far higher rate, making their retail, at the pump price, much higher. What the heck &#8211; didja think Eurogas was so much more expensive to refine or import from the M.E.?</p>
<p>The big difference has been that taxes on American gasoline have been dedicated to highway construction and maintenance (at least until the Clinton Administration started picking that particular pocket) while Eurogas went into the general fund, enriching bureaucrats (in America the payola was limiting to politicians&#8217; friends in the highway construction business.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Cane</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33498</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Cane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33498</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m glad to see someone else brought up Robert Moses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_moses

As someone who witnessed the opening of the Verrazzano Narrows Bridge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verrazano-Narrows_Bridge

I can tell you that it wasn&#039;t just minorities who were displaced, unless you are using the term to mean people who are summarily crushed under the plans of their government.

There are still people in Brooklyn who bemoan its construction and the huge bifurcation it created in Brooklyn neighborhoods.  There was even talk after its opening of an expansion that would have allegedly put where *I* was living in the path of new demolition.  (I don&#039;t know if the rumor was true or just scare talk, but it never happened.)

We at least have the ability to sit back and reflect on these things as well as criticize them.  Think of all the people in China who have been uprooted due to Olympics construction, as well as all the new high-rise buildings.  They have to take it and shut up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to see someone else brought up Robert Moses.<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_moses" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_moses</a></p>
<p>As someone who witnessed the opening of the Verrazzano Narrows Bridge:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verrazano-Narrows_Bridge" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verrazano-Narrows_Bridge</a></p>
<p>I can tell you that it wasn&#8217;t just minorities who were displaced, unless you are using the term to mean people who are summarily crushed under the plans of their government.</p>
<p>There are still people in Brooklyn who bemoan its construction and the huge bifurcation it created in Brooklyn neighborhoods.  There was even talk after its opening of an expansion that would have allegedly put where *I* was living in the path of new demolition.  (I don&#8217;t know if the rumor was true or just scare talk, but it never happened.)</p>
<p>We at least have the ability to sit back and reflect on these things as well as criticize them.  Think of all the people in China who have been uprooted due to Olympics construction, as well as all the new high-rise buildings.  They have to take it and shut up.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Metasilk</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33500</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Metasilk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A slight digression:
It seems to me that &lt;em&gt;mass&lt;/em&gt; transit and &lt;em&gt;public&lt;/em&gt; transit are not synonymous. Overlapping, sure.

I live in a East Coast rural area -- 20 minute drive to a grocery store. It&#039;s less dense than some rural areas of England (where there was sufficiently-frequent bus transport -- at least when I was travelling) and much more dense than some rural areas of western and central US. I think public transport if becoming much more viable -- give us $5/gallon gas and I think I&#039;ll see more up here. Mass transit though -- hardly. Not enough people.

Funding is tricky. How should they spend/distribute our taxes? To the best of my knowledge, oil companies (yeah, Exxon &amp; crew), interstate highways, and Amtrak are &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; subsidized by (receive money from)  the Federal Government (assuming a state &quot;behaves&quot; itself. I think I recall some noise about yanking Fed Highways funds if Vermont didn&#039;t comply with every provision of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://ulitave.livejournal.com/499110.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;No Child Left Behind&lt;/a&gt; act). As far as I know, the local (in my state) city buses and inter-town buses are subsidized by the state (more, yet different, taxes). At least one local bus is grant-funded and the ride is free; others sell tickets. They all run on petroleum and/or biodiesel. Our &lt;a href=&quot;http://frontporchforum.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Front Porch Forum&lt;/a&gt; has regular rideshare/carpool/save you a trip posts.

Just a bit more to factor in.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A slight digression:<br />
It seems to me that <em>mass</em> transit and <em>public</em> transit are not synonymous. Overlapping, sure.</p>
<p>I live in a East Coast rural area &#8212; 20 minute drive to a grocery store. It&#8217;s less dense than some rural areas of England (where there was sufficiently-frequent bus transport &#8212; at least when I was travelling) and much more dense than some rural areas of western and central US. I think public transport if becoming much more viable &#8212; give us $5/gallon gas and I think I&#8217;ll see more up here. Mass transit though &#8212; hardly. Not enough people.</p>
<p>Funding is tricky. How should they spend/distribute our taxes? To the best of my knowledge, oil companies (yeah, Exxon &amp; crew), interstate highways, and Amtrak are <em>all</em> subsidized by (receive money from)  the Federal Government (assuming a state &#8220;behaves&#8221; itself. I think I recall some noise about yanking Fed Highways funds if Vermont didn&#8217;t comply with every provision of the <a href="http://ulitave.livejournal.com/499110.html" rel="nofollow">No Child Left Behind</a> act). As far as I know, the local (in my state) city buses and inter-town buses are subsidized by the state (more, yet different, taxes). At least one local bus is grant-funded and the ride is free; others sell tickets. They all run on petroleum and/or biodiesel. Our <a href="http://frontporchforum.com/" rel="nofollow">Front Porch Forum</a> has regular rideshare/carpool/save you a trip posts.</p>
<p>Just a bit more to factor in.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Davis</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33502</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher Davis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 15:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33502</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Skar (#4): &lt;i&gt;I find it a little hard to believe though that they were created to alleviate traffic congestion and to stick it to poor minorities as Shiner seems to suggest.&lt;/i&gt;

Was the latter the actual intent? No, I don&#039;t think it was. Was it a fairly foreseeable effect? I think so.

Boston has a particularly interesting example in the Southwest Expressway (I-95). The 1948 &lt;cite&gt;Master Highway Plan for Metropolitan Boston&lt;/cite&gt;:&lt;blockquote&gt;Because of the heavy concentration of population within the entire area traversed, selection of a suitable route was difficult. However, by studying a number of locations one was found where, by utilizing existing highways and vacant areas, and by &lt;b&gt;traversing sections where property values were lowest&lt;/b&gt;, it was possible to find a route that could be developed at a reasonable cost. (emphasis added)&lt;/blockquote&gt;The plan was cancelled after the &quot;bad&quot; neighborhoods had already had a three-mile long right-of-way bulldozed; it was later used for commuter rail and rapid transit, with a linear park put on top.

Of course, it was cancelled because the demolition was starting to get to the &quot;good&quot; neighborhoods with actual political power....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skar (#4): <i>I find it a little hard to believe though that they were created to alleviate traffic congestion and to stick it to poor minorities as Shiner seems to suggest.</i></p>
<p>Was the latter the actual intent? No, I don&#8217;t think it was. Was it a fairly foreseeable effect? I think so.</p>
<p>Boston has a particularly interesting example in the Southwest Expressway (I-95). The 1948 <cite>Master Highway Plan for Metropolitan Boston</cite>:<br />
<blockquote>Because of the heavy concentration of population within the entire area traversed, selection of a suitable route was difficult. However, by studying a number of locations one was found where, by utilizing existing highways and vacant areas, and by <b>traversing sections where property values were lowest</b>, it was possible to find a route that could be developed at a reasonable cost. (emphasis added)</p></blockquote>
<p>The plan was cancelled after the &#8220;bad&#8221; neighborhoods had already had a three-mile long right-of-way bulldozed; it was later used for commuter rail and rapid transit, with a linear park put on top.</p>
<p>Of course, it was cancelled because the demolition was starting to get to the &#8220;good&#8221; neighborhoods with actual political power&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Davis Nicoll</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Davis Nicoll]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Soviet troops, who were expected to launch an ICBM nuclear attack&lt;/i&gt;

Bombers, not ICBMs. Both the US and SU developed working intercontintental rockets within 4 months of each other in 1957 and the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956 was passed the year before that.

Ike&#039;s motivation had less to do with Soviet nukes than a the 1919 Transcontinental Convey, which took two months to cross the US and which suffered a 7% casualty rate. The Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways lets the US move its military assets around the US quickly and reasonably efficiently.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Soviet troops, who were expected to launch an ICBM nuclear attack</i></p>
<p>Bombers, not ICBMs. Both the US and SU developed working intercontintental rockets within 4 months of each other in 1957 and the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956 was passed the year before that.</p>
<p>Ike&#8217;s motivation had less to do with Soviet nukes than a the 1919 Transcontinental Convey, which took two months to cross the US and which suffered a 7% casualty rate. The Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways lets the US move its military assets around the US quickly and reasonably efficiently.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Captain Button</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33496</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Captain Button]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 04:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[LS @ 23
&lt;i&gt;But the real problem here is the idea of a rush hour, which we could surely find a way to dispense with once we’ve solved the public transportation issue.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;d think it would be easier to solve the rush hour one first.

ObSF here is &quot;Chronopolis&quot; by JG Ballard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LS @ 23<br />
<i>But the real problem here is the idea of a rush hour, which we could surely find a way to dispense with once we’ve solved the public transportation issue.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;d think it would be easier to solve the rush hour one first.</p>
<p>ObSF here is &#8220;Chronopolis&#8221; by JG Ballard.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: SFC SKI</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SFC SKI]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll have to read this book to see how he fleshes out his ideas.  I don&#039;t agree with some of his assertions, but it is a very interesting idea for an alternate history.

Cheap gas made for a lot of decisions that might not otherwise have been made, no doubt.

I lived, worked, and travelled in Europe, and I really appreciated the ability to use public transportation in lieu of a car, assuming I lived close enough to a rail or bus line that didn&#039;t demend I leave 2 hours  for travel time.   I doubt any of the public transportation efforts there sprang from any idea to support the community rather than the individual.
Europeans might complain about the price of fuel, but they drive to work about as much as Americans do, from what I have observed.  I have been in hellacious rush hour jams, and their August vacation season sees roads across the continent packed.  Since they have moved away from the factory oriented shifts, the number of busses and trains have decreased.  Also, as more Europeans can afford to move out of cities, they do.  Don&#039;t kid yourselves that suburban sprawl is solely the problem of Americans.
I do wish I had reliable train service from southern Virginia to DC, I&#039;d probably go there more often.  I do prefer to take the train when I can.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll have to read this book to see how he fleshes out his ideas.  I don&#8217;t agree with some of his assertions, but it is a very interesting idea for an alternate history.</p>
<p>Cheap gas made for a lot of decisions that might not otherwise have been made, no doubt.</p>
<p>I lived, worked, and travelled in Europe, and I really appreciated the ability to use public transportation in lieu of a car, assuming I lived close enough to a rail or bus line that didn&#8217;t demend I leave 2 hours  for travel time.   I doubt any of the public transportation efforts there sprang from any idea to support the community rather than the individual.<br />
Europeans might complain about the price of fuel, but they drive to work about as much as Americans do, from what I have observed.  I have been in hellacious rush hour jams, and their August vacation season sees roads across the continent packed.  Since they have moved away from the factory oriented shifts, the number of busses and trains have decreased.  Also, as more Europeans can afford to move out of cities, they do.  Don&#8217;t kid yourselves that suburban sprawl is solely the problem of Americans.<br />
I do wish I had reliable train service from southern Virginia to DC, I&#8217;d probably go there more often.  I do prefer to take the train when I can.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rembrant</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/06/13/the-big-idea-lewis-shiner/#comment-33497</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rembrant]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 01:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=875#comment-33497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dwight D. Eisenhower had a lot to do with the creation of the interstate highway system. In 1919 and 1920 the military sent two convoys from Washington DC to San Francisco t see how long it would take. It took forever. Then in WWII he saw the autobahn. When he became President he went to work creating the interstate highway system.
To try and second guess the impacts at this point may be entertaining but it is pretty pointless. File this with what if the American Revolution had failed and what if the South had won the Civil War and what if Hitler hadn&#039;t been such a military putz.
Would there be a middle class if it wasn&#039;t for the jobs created by the auto industry?
I have to laugh at people who live in the city and say they don&#039;t need a car and can&#039;t understand why anyone would need one. Not everyone wants to live packed together like sardines. Which is the best way for mass transit to work. You need masses of people for a mass transit system to work.
I live and work in Northern San Diego CA. I have a 15 minute commute. If I were to take mass transit it would take me an hour to get there. They just spent $480 million dollars on a light rail system and it is useless unless you live and work along it&#039;s route. Well I live along it route but I don&#039;t work along its route. There is a critical mass population that is needed for mass transit to work. There has to be enough traffic jams to make mass transit attractive. High gas prices helps.
The funny thing is that I work at Aptera. A company making an electric car. It won&#039;t do much about traffic jams but it will save a lot of gas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dwight D. Eisenhower had a lot to do with the creation of the interstate highway system. In 1919 and 1920 the military sent two convoys from Washington DC to San Francisco t see how long it would take. It took forever. Then in WWII he saw the autobahn. When he became President he went to work creating the interstate highway system.<br />
To try and second guess the impacts at this point may be entertaining but it is pretty pointless. File this with what if the American Revolution had failed and what if the South had won the Civil War and what if Hitler hadn&#8217;t been such a military putz.<br />
Would there be a middle class if it wasn&#8217;t for the jobs created by the auto industry?<br />
I have to laugh at people who live in the city and say they don&#8217;t need a car and can&#8217;t understand why anyone would need one. Not everyone wants to live packed together like sardines. Which is the best way for mass transit to work. You need masses of people for a mass transit system to work.<br />
I live and work in Northern San Diego CA. I have a 15 minute commute. If I were to take mass transit it would take me an hour to get there. They just spent $480 million dollars on a light rail system and it is useless unless you live and work along it&#8217;s route. Well I live along it route but I don&#8217;t work along its route. There is a critical mass population that is needed for mass transit to work. There has to be enough traffic jams to make mass transit attractive. High gas prices helps.<br />
The funny thing is that I work at Aptera. A company making an electric car. It won&#8217;t do much about traffic jams but it will save a lot of gas.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

