If Obama governs as a fiscal conservative (unlikely) he’ll win them over for the Democratic party. If not, the swing voters will eventually bring the Republicans out of the wilderness.

I feel like there are at least some people out there that believe the same-sex marriage thing involves their churches and not marriage certificates. I feel like that these people may be swayed.

I have no proof of the matter, and much proof to the contrary. People like that are against as much as they can get away with. As for the “extremist right” you’re talking about here, I was thinking more the Southern Baptist Convention and the Mormon Church. Those are both fairly large, well funded groups that have spent millions to overturn LGBT rights, and prevent progress on even the most minor issues of civil partnerships. It’s nice to be able to think of the “extremist right” as a small group of loons, but the behavior I’m talking about is form a large group of well funded, well organized people who have a stranglehold on the GOP nationwide. And it’s not just same an anti sex marriage agenda they’re pushing. It’s far ranging policy influence.

I wasn’t talking about the extremist right (i.e. the people that protest that “God hates fags” etc.). I am talking about people who are influenced by the extremist right’s propoganda without realizing it.

Bizarrely, Fred Phelps (the “God hates fags” wackaloon) ran in Democratic Party Primaries. AFAIK he’s still a Democrat. Which underscores your point that we should be careful generalizing about people opposed to same-sex marriage. (While there are others on the extremist right expressing similar sentiments re. gays, “God hates Fags/America/The World/…” is the calling card of the Phelps family cult).

No problem, it’s hard to have a discussion via comment thread. I tried to separate the legal and religious parts of the issue with imaginary words. There was no intended separation of legal rights between mixed and same sex marriages.

I wasn’t talking about the extremist right (i.e. the people that protest that “God hates fags” etc.). I am talking about people who are influenced by the extremist right’s propoganda without realizing it.

I feel like there are at least some people out there that believe the same-sex marriage thing involves their churches and not marriage certificates. I feel like that these people may be swayed.

Sorry for getting your intent wrong. With all the invented names, it’s hard to keep track of what you were saying.

I know some people are unmoveable. However, I doubt that everyone falls into that category and that some people are voting due to ignorance of the real issues rather than stupidity. Now some people are hopeless causes and will always hate gays, minorities, religious groups. But I think some people (not the extremist right) are capable of rational thought. Maybe I am giving too much credit to humanity. Which makes me sad.

Presumably, if Jesus had a spare $40 million, he’d actually have fed the hungry instead of ruined people’s marriages because they happened to have been the same gender.

First of all your first quote isn’t even a quote. I didn’t say that.

What I did say is “Elections are no longer about who is the candidate you want to vote for. Unless you abstain, or vote third party (which is the same as abstaining, let’s not kid ourselves), you are forced to choose not between you like more, but who you hate or fear least. My vote for Bush was not a vote for Bush but a vote against Gore and against Kerry.”

I don’t deny that at the time, I thought that Bush would be better than Gore. I also don’t deny that during the 2004 election I thought that Kerry would abandon Iraq in an unsafe way. I voted for Bush both times. Also noted that I didn’t really like either candidate.

Just because I voted for him then DOES NOT mean I still think Gore or Kerry would have been worse. It’s pretty obvious that the state the country is in that it would have been hard to be worse. It’s called hindsight and it’s something you don’t have when you are making a decision in the present.

If I could vote with some type of ability to go 4 years into the future for each candidate and see what the country would be like I could.

And stop calling it a God from the Gap argument. It’s not. I wasn’t even making an argument other than saying that you can’t know with certainty what would have happened. John, you were a philosophy major,weren’t you? Care to clarify?

You have been attacking me for no reason other than the fact that I said I voted for Bush in 2000 and 2004 (and did so reluctantly). I had the information I did at the time, no more.

Post 44: Also not a quote. You did, however, leave out the part where you resorted to unintelligent vulgarity

Post 61: Explain to me how Gore being a better President Bush is a indisputable fact other than your very strongly held opinion

Post 82: God in the gap. It’s not a god in the gap argument.

My conjecture was that in 2000, I thought that Bush was better than Gore. That was my opinion. Not fact

Your conjecture is that in 2008, it is now a fact that Gore would have been better than Bush.

I start with the conjecture that at the time, I believed one path into the future would have been better. And as I said in Post 15, it was choosing which path I thought would be less worse.

Greg -”Say what? Then why did you get a free pass on “Bush better than Gore” conjecture, and then turn into the “conjecture hall monitor” when anyone else disagreed with you?”

I am treating conjecture as conjecture and that you don’t know it with certainty. You are treating conjecture as fact and that somehow you can know the contents of an infinite number of multiverses.

Then we get into the whole Christians/Atheists argument where I was proving a point that the stereotyping of Christians as amoral people based on the idea of a forgiving god was just as ridiculous as the stereotyping of atheists as amoral people because they don’t believe in a higher power.

“You then can’t even remember stating anywhere in this thread even a single time of sayign Bush was better than Gore. So I point out your very first post on this thread which said exactly that.”

No, I said that AT THE TIME I thought Bush was the best choice between two unfavorable candidates, in my opinion. A lot of people thought the same thing. That’s why Bush won.

Greg – “And then rather than admit (1) you really did say Bush was better than Gore or (2) you had not in fact been sayign all along that Gore was better than Bush or (3) responding to anything I actually said based on anything you actually said, Instead of any of those options, you (4) complain that I “have it out for you”.”

1) I said that, AT THE TIME, I believed this. Not that I still did.
2) I didn’t clarify my current opinion one way or the other. You argued from the assumption that I blindly support Bush.
3) At that point I started ignoring you and started discussing same-sex marriage with people that were willing to have a rational conversation with me.
4) Then you continue your attacks toward me into a completely different line of conversation. Which implies that your problem is with me is somehow personal.

“I’m sorry, but that’s a false analogy. There are no civil unions in the US that grant rights close to what you can get by full marriage. Groups opposed to same sex marriage are provably opposed to civil unions that aren’t even close.”

I wasn’t trying to imply that there were. I was saying the opposite. That there should be ONE legal document applicable for two people regardless of same/different sex.

Josh – “That is provably not true. The religious right is opposed to granting lesser rights in the form of civil unions that don’t even come close to full on marriage. You’re imagining these people are being reasonable. They’re not.”

I know some people are unmoveable. However, I doubt that everyone falls into that category and that some people are voting due to ignorance of the real issues rather than stupidity. Now some people are hopeless causes and will always hate gays, minorities, religious groups. But I think some people (not the extremist right) are capable of rational thought. Maybe I am giving too much credit to humanity. Which makes me sad.