Don’t worry, here’s a new entry for more conversations along some of these themes, guest-posted by Mary Anne Mohanraj. Enjoy.

– outing people
– harassing people in real life
– etc.

I called out specific white folks who did cross the line from insults to damaging action. The mere insults were flying so freely by the time I entered the discussion that it seemed pointless to even try to track them.

Or donate to The Carl Brandon Society which is an awards society inspired by the Tiptree awards, also at Wiscon.

I hope the fruit that has been borne of this discussions will lead to greater things.

I, likewise, am done.

Kudos to John for an interesting and elightening and voluminous thread, well-moderated.

Now you’re putting words in my mouth. You’ve certainly participated in this discussion–and most lucidly–but somewhere way upthread you indicated you hadn’t even been aware of the broader discussion until Scalzi linked to it. That’s all I meant by saying you’re a bystander. So am I.

Yeah, I don’t think I ever demanded anyone apologize to me.

No, you’ve declared that you want someone to say they’ve crossed a line into clearly unacceptable behavior. I have no idea why you want to hear someone else affirm your judgment of the discussion, but it seems that no one here will do so. For myself, the reason I won’t do so is that I don’t believe I have the standing make that judgment, and I don’t believe you do either.

And again, yes, thanks, John, for hosting, and thanks everyone–Greg included–for the discussion.

–SMQ

What I said was that, it “can come across as non-inclusive of the other side.” I didn’t say that you were not being inclusive. Your indignation is registered, but I don’t think your argument is with me.

I’m not going to be an apologist for pyros ostensibly on “my” side; I’m not really in a position to apologize for anything but my own actions. Inconsistently, I don’t deal with absolutes when it comes to other people’s actions, but I do for my own. If it makes you feel better, I do not feel that painting an entire race as “racist,” or placing blame on an innocent bystander for all the so-called sins of his nation or his people or his gender or whatever is called for. Specific to that case, I am in agreement. This doesn’t mean I can’t see the causes that lead to the actions, nor do I see anything in your writing that leads me to think you don’t either. Explanation is not an excuse, however, and I think that might be where there’s been disconnect.

I have seen several POC posters cracking down on comments on their blogs that were the scorch-and-burn type that you mention, saying that they were not helpful and that they were out of line. If there is an apology needed there, I don’t think they’re responsible for making it. My read from your comments is that you don’t feel you should have to apologize for racist comments that other white writers have made, nor do I think you should have to. Are we keeping points now about which side has apologized more? That sounds about as useful as the karmic points you’re referring to above.

That aside: Ostensibly there’re people paying me for doing actual work, and … I should probably do that. Ahem.

By the by, Greg: samoas. Made from real girl scouts.

Yeah, I don’t think I ever demanded anyone apologize to me.

I’m not saying that there are no lines, or that none have been crossed; I’m saying that it’s the participants in the discussion that get to draw the lines, not the bystanders.

Ah, so, the mob gets to draw the lines. Nice turn of the phrase. I’m white, so I’m not participating, you know, unless of course, I’m guilty of white privilege and not participating enough. And as the FAQ on white privilege says, if you’ve got privilege, the best thing you can do? Listen to the mob. It’s all a perfectly hermetically sealed system of rules that always brings it back to the same conclusion: the mob is right.

Good one you.

That would also explain why the mob never has to apologize for the actions of any of its members.

John, I’m really, really sorry. I know I made extra work for you keeping an eye on this thread. And you’re a better man than me for how you’ve dealt with it and this whole mess.

I’m done.

I’ve enjoyed the discussion. It has made me perhaps more aware of white privilege, and definitely more aware of how others see it. Everyone (it seems to me) brings a whole freight-car of baggage to any encounter, and it’s almost a miracle that we have as much peacefulness as we do. Even after you’ve shoveled away a whole trainload, there is still more there.