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	<title>Comments on: Why New Novelists Are Kinda Old, or, Hey, Publishing is Slow</title>
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		<title>By: Cam Snow</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-183942</link>
		<dc:creator>Cam Snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 14:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m 31, and I recently &quot;finished&quot; my first novel, which I&#039;m currently pimping out to every agent and editor under the sun.  I looked in the document properties and realized that I started it in 2002...  
What happened? 

In 2000 I wrote a 300 page long spy thriller that was complete poop (as most spy thrillers are).  I dropped it an never thought about it again... so maybe I should say I&#039;m 31 and I just finished my second.

Then in 2002 I started writing another one and I got about 40k words in, and life intervened (wrote a thesis, a dissertation, 25 published academic articles, etc, started working full time, etc).  I was cleaning out my hard drive and was about to delete it, and wanted to read what I had written.  I really liked it and decided to make a run at finishing it.  I did, and it ended up at 85k words.  I then used my Nanowrimo month to EDIT the thing... I killed 10k words of fluff.

Now I&#039;m simul-writing novels 3 and 4, but I&#039;m really focusing on one of them at the expense of the other.  I&#039;m 1/2 way through and hoping that this one might be the one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m 31, and I recently &#8220;finished&#8221; my first novel, which I&#8217;m currently pimping out to every agent and editor under the sun.  I looked in the document properties and realized that I started it in 2002&#8230;<br />
What happened? </p>
<p>In 2000 I wrote a 300 page long spy thriller that was complete poop (as most spy thrillers are).  I dropped it an never thought about it again&#8230; so maybe I should say I&#8217;m 31 and I just finished my second.</p>
<p>Then in 2002 I started writing another one and I got about 40k words in, and life intervened (wrote a thesis, a dissertation, 25 published academic articles, etc, started working full time, etc).  I was cleaning out my hard drive and was about to delete it, and wanted to read what I had written.  I really liked it and decided to make a run at finishing it.  I did, and it ended up at 85k words.  I then used my Nanowrimo month to EDIT the thing&#8230; I killed 10k words of fluff.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m simul-writing novels 3 and 4, but I&#8217;m really focusing on one of them at the expense of the other.  I&#8217;m 1/2 way through and hoping that this one might be the one.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-183919</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-183919</guid>
		<description>How coincidental. I am 28 and basically at the same spot on your timeline. NaNoWriMo was the spur that got me to writing. Who knows? Maybe in 9 years I&#039;ll be famous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How coincidental. I am 28 and basically at the same spot on your timeline. NaNoWriMo was the spur that got me to writing. Who knows? Maybe in 9 years I&#8217;ll be famous.</p>
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		<title>By: Rekky</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-182096</link>
		<dc:creator>Rekky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 17:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-182096</guid>
		<description>Quite an intriguing entry you have here, and a frightening one I may add as well. So the cruelty displayed by the world of novel writing is truly brutal it seems. As I read this, I couldn&#039;t help but feel an impuissance I&#039;ve been experiencing grow ever stronger in myself. I probably shouldn&#039;t be so unassured by such a plight. I&#039;m 15 years old though, unexperienced child and such, so I can&#039;t help but feel helpless.

Anyway, in spite of that, it seems that I am only on the first stage to being a novel writer, according to you. In four days of writing, I&#039;ve only managed some three thousand words of fiction. It took quite a while, and for most of the part I did absolutely nothing but stare at text for ages, just trying to find suitable words to continue it. Even the writing itself seems somewhat awkward.

An excerpt, for an example:

&#039;The air was cool. The breeze that drifted lightly into our clubroom from its open window was refreshing, poise. From the past rain, dews suspended gently, but nobody would see them. Though I could not smell them, I could feel the humidity in the atmosphere being slightly heavier than usual. The ambience could in all likehood encourage lively and briskness.&#039;

I suppose I&#039;ll keep on writing, but I thought I&#039;d just add this little comment. Thanks though for writing this up. It will prepare me mentally for the foreboding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite an intriguing entry you have here, and a frightening one I may add as well. So the cruelty displayed by the world of novel writing is truly brutal it seems. As I read this, I couldn&#8217;t help but feel an impuissance I&#8217;ve been experiencing grow ever stronger in myself. I probably shouldn&#8217;t be so unassured by such a plight. I&#8217;m 15 years old though, unexperienced child and such, so I can&#8217;t help but feel helpless.</p>
<p>Anyway, in spite of that, it seems that I am only on the first stage to being a novel writer, according to you. In four days of writing, I&#8217;ve only managed some three thousand words of fiction. It took quite a while, and for most of the part I did absolutely nothing but stare at text for ages, just trying to find suitable words to continue it. Even the writing itself seems somewhat awkward.</p>
<p>An excerpt, for an example:</p>
<p>&#8216;The air was cool. The breeze that drifted lightly into our clubroom from its open window was refreshing, poise. From the past rain, dews suspended gently, but nobody would see them. Though I could not smell them, I could feel the humidity in the atmosphere being slightly heavier than usual. The ambience could in all likehood encourage lively and briskness.&#8217;</p>
<p>I suppose I&#8217;ll keep on writing, but I thought I&#8217;d just add this little comment. Thanks though for writing this up. It will prepare me mentally for the foreboding.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirsten Imani Kasai</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-171108</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirsten Imani Kasai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-171108</guid>
		<description>Wonderful post and discussion! There&#039;s a terrific article in the New Yorker on this subject &quot;Late Bloomers: Why do we equate genius with precocity?&quot;
http://tinyurl.com/3mrrmx

My career follows a similar path to many of the other writers who offered their data. 
Began writing stories as a child (1978)
Began seriously writing as a teen (1984)
Published poetry &amp; short stories (1993 - 2007)
wrote my first novel at age 28
(self-published it in 2006, at age 36)
began second novel at 35-ish
secured an agent and sold second (&amp; third unwritten novel) to Del Rey at age 37
&quot;Ice Song&quot; hits stores in 2009 (39!)
My second novel is scheduled for publication in 2011. I&#039;m hopeful that they&#039;ll squeeze it in while I&#039;m still 40.

Another aspect of the writing life no one has yet mentioned is the time one takes to scrape together your ambition/desire after receiving many, many rejections and then mustering the courage to brave the publishing markets again. It takes an immense amount of fortitude to keep going. I suspect that most of us work in cycles, between fallow periods of withdrawal and creative regeneration. Stories have their own gestational timeframes and can&#039;t be hurried. Much of our writing time is spent brooding over eggs that may or may not hatch, but what a delight when they do!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful post and discussion! There&#8217;s a terrific article in the New Yorker on this subject &#8220;Late Bloomers: Why do we equate genius with precocity?&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://tinyurl.com/3mrrmx" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/3mrrmx</a></p>
<p>My career follows a similar path to many of the other writers who offered their data.<br />
Began writing stories as a child (1978)<br />
Began seriously writing as a teen (1984)<br />
Published poetry &amp; short stories (1993 &#8211; 2007)<br />
wrote my first novel at age 28<br />
(self-published it in 2006, at age 36)<br />
began second novel at 35-ish<br />
secured an agent and sold second (&amp; third unwritten novel) to Del Rey at age 37<br />
&#8220;Ice Song&#8221; hits stores in 2009 (39!)<br />
My second novel is scheduled for publication in 2011. I&#8217;m hopeful that they&#8217;ll squeeze it in while I&#8217;m still 40.</p>
<p>Another aspect of the writing life no one has yet mentioned is the time one takes to scrape together your ambition/desire after receiving many, many rejections and then mustering the courage to brave the publishing markets again. It takes an immense amount of fortitude to keep going. I suspect that most of us work in cycles, between fallow periods of withdrawal and creative regeneration. Stories have their own gestational timeframes and can&#8217;t be hurried. Much of our writing time is spent brooding over eggs that may or may not hatch, but what a delight when they do!</p>
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		<title>By: shuabparvez</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-165804</link>
		<dc:creator>shuabparvez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-165804</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this. So true. I&#039;m 34 and still unpublished and hoping for my &quot;debut&quot; novel. I have of course written five novels during this time! If anyone would care to look at my shallow prose, see below (my blog stat counter is looking v depressing at the moment!)

http://shuabparvez.wordpress.com/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this. So true. I&#8217;m 34 and still unpublished and hoping for my &#8220;debut&#8221; novel. I have of course written five novels during this time! If anyone would care to look at my shallow prose, see below (my blog stat counter is looking v depressing at the moment!)</p>
<p><a href="http://shuabparvez.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://shuabparvez.wordpress.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Roisin</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-162557</link>
		<dc:creator>Roisin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:39:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-162557</guid>
		<description>Arrived here from http://ianthealy.blogspot.com

Lots of people have suggested that it takes about 10,000 hours of effort to get really good at something - whether it&#039;s playing an instrument, or painting, or computer programming. 

The thing of it is, most professional musicians started playing when they were five or even younger, and were doing hours of practice a day while still in single digits. Most writers, on the other hand, don&#039;t start seriously working at their writing until they&#039;re out of high school, at least. 

Your points about &#039;working up&#039; to a novel and comparing novel writing to marathon running are good. I certainly found at the very beginning that writing lots of very short pieces developed my nuts-and-bolts, sentence structure and dialogue skills. Moving on to short stories builds your plotting and characterisation skills. Writing a novel is another thng entirely - there&#039;s so much big-picture stuff to keep track of, and at the same time you&#039;re employing the same nuts-and-bolts skills you learnt back when your stories were 500 word sketches. 

Takes a long time for all that to get into muscle memory, so you can devote most of your attention to plodding along with your novel and not dropping any of your plot threads. 

*glares at second novel*. My first was, indeed, a bit of a monstrous thing. I suspect most of them are. 

In summary, and in case of tl;dr: Yes, yes, and yes. I wonder, though, about those who start really early - who get those dire first novels out of their systems in their early teens. Are there so few writers who do this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrived here from <a href="http://ianthealy.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://ianthealy.blogspot.com</a></p>
<p>Lots of people have suggested that it takes about 10,000 hours of effort to get really good at something &#8211; whether it&#8217;s playing an instrument, or painting, or computer programming. </p>
<p>The thing of it is, most professional musicians started playing when they were five or even younger, and were doing hours of practice a day while still in single digits. Most writers, on the other hand, don&#8217;t start seriously working at their writing until they&#8217;re out of high school, at least. </p>
<p>Your points about &#8216;working up&#8217; to a novel and comparing novel writing to marathon running are good. I certainly found at the very beginning that writing lots of very short pieces developed my nuts-and-bolts, sentence structure and dialogue skills. Moving on to short stories builds your plotting and characterisation skills. Writing a novel is another thng entirely &#8211; there&#8217;s so much big-picture stuff to keep track of, and at the same time you&#8217;re employing the same nuts-and-bolts skills you learnt back when your stories were 500 word sketches. </p>
<p>Takes a long time for all that to get into muscle memory, so you can devote most of your attention to plodding along with your novel and not dropping any of your plot threads. </p>
<p>*glares at second novel*. My first was, indeed, a bit of a monstrous thing. I suspect most of them are. </p>
<p>In summary, and in case of tl;dr: Yes, yes, and yes. I wonder, though, about those who start really early &#8211; who get those dire first novels out of their systems in their early teens. Are there so few writers who do this?</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-157415</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-157415</guid>
		<description>Read the book The Creative Age to get better insight on this topic. According to the neuroscientist who wrote that book, the brain becomes more well-equipt for creativity as we age because of accumulated life experience. When fame and creative success comes too soon, I think it can actually remove an artist from the important element of life experience, which may be why so many young artists are &quot;one hit wonders.&quot; Youthfulness is an advantage in areas like music and acting because we like a good looking body in front of our eyes when watching a performer. In the case of writing, looking young and pretty is no advantage, so the work is more likely to be judged on artistic merit alone. Also, verbal ability consistently improves through life, up until the 80s, unlike mind-body coordination, which declines and may effect physical performance ability, like that required in music and dance. Many visual artists and writers seem to do their best work in their 50s. Piccaso, for example, painted some of his most famous, innovative work in his late 50s, even though he had been considered a prodigy as a child. Shakespeare&#039;s best works were written in his 40s and 50s in a day when that was quite an advanced age. Frankly, our culture would be greatly enriched if we would get rid of our youth-centered thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read the book The Creative Age to get better insight on this topic. According to the neuroscientist who wrote that book, the brain becomes more well-equipt for creativity as we age because of accumulated life experience. When fame and creative success comes too soon, I think it can actually remove an artist from the important element of life experience, which may be why so many young artists are &#8220;one hit wonders.&#8221; Youthfulness is an advantage in areas like music and acting because we like a good looking body in front of our eyes when watching a performer. In the case of writing, looking young and pretty is no advantage, so the work is more likely to be judged on artistic merit alone. Also, verbal ability consistently improves through life, up until the 80s, unlike mind-body coordination, which declines and may effect physical performance ability, like that required in music and dance. Many visual artists and writers seem to do their best work in their 50s. Piccaso, for example, painted some of his most famous, innovative work in his late 50s, even though he had been considered a prodigy as a child. Shakespeare&#8217;s best works were written in his 40s and 50s in a day when that was quite an advanced age. Frankly, our culture would be greatly enriched if we would get rid of our youth-centered thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: D. D. Tannenbaum</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-154162</link>
		<dc:creator>D. D. Tannenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 15:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-154162</guid>
		<description>John,

As usual, you take a very sad and depressing topic and turn it into a very light-hearted commentary. As someone who stared writing late in life (50), I can appreciate that I may be collecting Social Security before I publish a novel! Thanks for all of your good works, and may the Gods of Bacon watch over you and yours...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>As usual, you take a very sad and depressing topic and turn it into a very light-hearted commentary. As someone who stared writing late in life (50), I can appreciate that I may be collecting Social Security before I publish a novel! Thanks for all of your good works, and may the Gods of Bacon watch over you and yours&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ec</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-154159</link>
		<dc:creator>ec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-154159</guid>
		<description>Another author timeline.

I&#039;ve always written--poetry, essays, long letters--but it didn&#039;t occur to me to try to write professionally until my first son was born. So....

1986-1989.  Starting at the age of 29, I wrote 4 novel-length ms, all of which have been whacked with shovels and buried behind the shed.  

1989.  Proposal for ELFSHADOW, first published book, accepted.  Wrote and revised book.

1991.  ELFSHADOW published at age 35.

2009.  Working on book #21.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another author timeline.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always written&#8211;poetry, essays, long letters&#8211;but it didn&#8217;t occur to me to try to write professionally until my first son was born. So&#8230;.</p>
<p>1986-1989.  Starting at the age of 29, I wrote 4 novel-length ms, all of which have been whacked with shovels and buried behind the shed.  </p>
<p>1989.  Proposal for ELFSHADOW, first published book, accepted.  Wrote and revised book.</p>
<p>1991.  ELFSHADOW published at age 35.</p>
<p>2009.  Working on book #21.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Latham</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/24/why-new-novelists-are-kinda-old/#comment-154158</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Latham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7778#comment-154158</guid>
		<description>Great advice. I&#039;m, uh, 62, and I&#039;ve been writing since about age 20. Sold my first story while a Marine in a foxhole in Vietnam when my partner bet me ten bucks that I couldn&#039;t write something he liked in 30 minutes. I decided then that I would be a writer because it seemed easy. Bad mistake. Forty-two years later, I&#039;m still at it while I worked and raised five kids in the process. I&#039;ve had a bad agent, a good agent, and plenty of rejection. I made every mistake along the way, including once writing to the CEO of Putnam (looked his address up at the library) demanding someone read my first novel. He arranged it, after writing to me and asking how I got his address, and then I got the manuscript back with tire marks where a truck ran over it. I believe they did it on purpose.
I was set to be published by Bantam after going in through the slush pile, and lost my spot to an established writer because they only had one opening at the time and I was unknown. I&#039;ve made it to the final marketing meeting several times with the majors, but something always happened. So I was published by a small publisher in San Diego, Clocktower Books. I&#039;ve done almost every kind of writing and editing over the years. I currently work as an editor for an editing agency in Washington. Most writers today don&#039;t want to take the time to do it right. You wouldn&#039;t believe some of the manuscripts I see. So I can understand this column all the way because I&#039;ve lived it. Unless a writer drops from heaven, it will take years to get a break. There are rare exceptions, but very few considering how many people think they are writers. The writing world is a nightmare for most people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great advice. I&#8217;m, uh, 62, and I&#8217;ve been writing since about age 20. Sold my first story while a Marine in a foxhole in Vietnam when my partner bet me ten bucks that I couldn&#8217;t write something he liked in 30 minutes. I decided then that I would be a writer because it seemed easy. Bad mistake. Forty-two years later, I&#8217;m still at it while I worked and raised five kids in the process. I&#8217;ve had a bad agent, a good agent, and plenty of rejection. I made every mistake along the way, including once writing to the CEO of Putnam (looked his address up at the library) demanding someone read my first novel. He arranged it, after writing to me and asking how I got his address, and then I got the manuscript back with tire marks where a truck ran over it. I believe they did it on purpose.<br />
I was set to be published by Bantam after going in through the slush pile, and lost my spot to an established writer because they only had one opening at the time and I was unknown. I&#8217;ve made it to the final marketing meeting several times with the majors, but something always happened. So I was published by a small publisher in San Diego, Clocktower Books. I&#8217;ve done almost every kind of writing and editing over the years. I currently work as an editor for an editing agency in Washington. Most writers today don&#8217;t want to take the time to do it right. You wouldn&#8217;t believe some of the manuscripts I see. So I can understand this column all the way because I&#8217;ve lived it. Unless a writer drops from heaven, it will take years to get a break. There are rare exceptions, but very few considering how many people think they are writers. The writing world is a nightmare for most people.</p>
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