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	<title>Comments on: Somehow I Think the New York Times Would Be Deeply Disappointed In This Conversation</title>
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	<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/</link>
	<description>DEVISING A SYSTEM FOR REMEMBERING EVERYTHING</description>
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		<title>By: Another Andrew</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153100</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153100</guid>
		<description>Stever Burnap@76: the English, like North Americans, normally hanged witches. The Scots burned them, as did many continental Europeans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stever Burnap@76: the English, like North Americans, normally hanged witches. The Scots burned them, as did many continental Europeans.</p>
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		<title>By: LauraB</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153064</link>
		<dc:creator>LauraB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153064</guid>
		<description>The last time I got hit on at a gay bar, I got weirded out, but only because I am a straight woman and the person hitting on me was a dude.  It was all very confusing... for a few seconds I seriously thought I had gone to the wrong bar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last time I got hit on at a gay bar, I got weirded out, but only because I am a straight woman and the person hitting on me was a dude.  It was all very confusing&#8230; for a few seconds I seriously thought I had gone to the wrong bar.</p>
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		<title>By: Xopher</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153061</link>
		<dc:creator>Xopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 23:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153061</guid>
		<description>Steve, I&#039;m guessing Salem1692&#039;s comment was just a drive-by trolling, which is why I didn&#039;t bother answering him* seriously. Note that 1692 somehow counts as &quot;the late 1690s.&quot;  Ur doin it rong, Salem.

*almost certainly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I&#8217;m guessing Salem1692&#8217;s comment was just a drive-by trolling, which is why I didn&#8217;t bother answering him* seriously. Note that 1692 somehow counts as &#8220;the late 1690s.&#8221;  Ur doin it rong, Salem.</p>
<p>*almost certainly</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Burnap</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153053</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Burnap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153053</guid>
		<description>salem1692@56: Get your facts straight.  It was the English who burned witches.  No one has, to my knowledge, ever been burned at the stake by a North American government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>salem1692@56: Get your facts straight.  It was the English who burned witches.  No one has, to my knowledge, ever been burned at the stake by a North American government.</p>
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		<title>By: georgmi</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153050</link>
		<dc:creator>georgmi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153050</guid>
		<description>I was hit on by a gay friend once.  It took me weeks to figure out that that is what had happened.  &quot;Oh, &lt;i&gt;that&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; what he meant by that...&quot;

Turns out I was apparently getting hit on by a lot of straight women at the time as well, with similar results, though it took years instead of weeks to realize it.  Seems I was convinced that I wasn&#039;t attractive, so I discounted the possibility of flirting before it even made its way to the conscious part of my brain.

Now that I know that I am hot screaming sex on a stick, I have to chalk up people &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; hitting on me to either shyness or a feeling on their part that they could never measure up to me, though I think they should not sell themselves so short.  But since I&#039;m married, it could never go anywhere anyway, so I just have to make sure to let them down easily and gently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was hit on by a gay friend once.  It took me weeks to figure out that that is what had happened.  &#8220;Oh, <i>that&#8217;s</i> what he meant by that&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Turns out I was apparently getting hit on by a lot of straight women at the time as well, with similar results, though it took years instead of weeks to realize it.  Seems I was convinced that I wasn&#8217;t attractive, so I discounted the possibility of flirting before it even made its way to the conscious part of my brain.</p>
<p>Now that I know that I am hot screaming sex on a stick, I have to chalk up people <i>not</i> hitting on me to either shyness or a feeling on their part that they could never measure up to me, though I think they should not sell themselves so short.  But since I&#8217;m married, it could never go anywhere anyway, so I just have to make sure to let them down easily and gently.</p>
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		<title>By: Xopher</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153047</link>
		<dc:creator>Xopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 20:15:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153047</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Tal 11:&lt;/strong&gt; Yes, yes!  Many of us have noticed the correlation between homophobia and misogyny.  This is one pretty good theory.  Another is that a deep commitment to rigid sex/gender roles gives rise to both.

&lt;strong&gt;Warren 21:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;the disappointment straight men express upon discovering that attractive woman celebrities they have no chance of ever meeting happen to be lesbians, as if that development made any bit of difference to their prospects with those women whatsoever&lt;/em&gt;

The lack of men in general to grok the concept that people they find attractive are radically unavailable also explains why there&#039;s a gay rumor about every attractive male celebrity&#8212;even Eminem, whose homophobia is so extreme that it&#039;s become a joke.  Tom Cruise is the best-known example, though he pretty well destroyed himself with his Scientology wackiness.  It doesn&#039;t matter who the guy is, if he&#039;s hot (either physically OR professionally, but especially both), some silly queen will conclude that he HAS to be gay, because all the best people are, you know. 

I&#039;ve had the experience of admiring the looks of some young man, to have a friend say &quot;he&#039;s straight!&quot; as if that made some difference.  Honestly, if I think something&#039;s on the Moon and you tell me no, it&#039;s on Mars, that doesn&#039;t make a whole lot of difference: I&#039;m not going to attempt to visit it, either way. I don&#039;t find it tremendously more likely that a hot young gay man will find me attractive than that a hot young straight man will, actually.  I can tell the straight ones because they&#039;ll talk to me, whereas I&#039;m invisible to the gay ones.

My point is that gay men are no better about this than straight men.  And when it comes to the feeling part, I&#039;m no better than anyone else: I remember how I felt, watching Demetri Martin for the first time, when he got to the part where he said &quot;but I&#039;m not gay.&quot;  Since Demetri Martin is just exactly my favorite kind of guy (his humor is exactly, precisely the kind I find funniest (except for his fart jokes)), and his physical appearance is far from repellent too, that wacky y-chromosome part of me was going &quot;OH DAMMIT.&quot;  Silly, huh?

And clever name, btw.

&lt;strong&gt;Salem1692 56:&lt;/strong&gt; What color is the sky on your planet?  And what do they call people with IQs over 80...when they visit?

&lt;strong&gt;Glen 70:&lt;/strong&gt; Pics or it didn&#039;t happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Tal 11:</strong> Yes, yes!  Many of us have noticed the correlation between homophobia and misogyny.  This is one pretty good theory.  Another is that a deep commitment to rigid sex/gender roles gives rise to both.</p>
<p><strong>Warren 21:</strong> <em>the disappointment straight men express upon discovering that attractive woman celebrities they have no chance of ever meeting happen to be lesbians, as if that development made any bit of difference to their prospects with those women whatsoever</em></p>
<p>The lack of men in general to grok the concept that people they find attractive are radically unavailable also explains why there&#8217;s a gay rumor about every attractive male celebrity&mdash;even Eminem, whose homophobia is so extreme that it&#8217;s become a joke.  Tom Cruise is the best-known example, though he pretty well destroyed himself with his Scientology wackiness.  It doesn&#8217;t matter who the guy is, if he&#8217;s hot (either physically OR professionally, but especially both), some silly queen will conclude that he HAS to be gay, because all the best people are, you know. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had the experience of admiring the looks of some young man, to have a friend say &#8220;he&#8217;s straight!&#8221; as if that made some difference.  Honestly, if I think something&#8217;s on the Moon and you tell me no, it&#8217;s on Mars, that doesn&#8217;t make a whole lot of difference: I&#8217;m not going to attempt to visit it, either way. I don&#8217;t find it tremendously more likely that a hot young gay man will find me attractive than that a hot young straight man will, actually.  I can tell the straight ones because they&#8217;ll talk to me, whereas I&#8217;m invisible to the gay ones.</p>
<p>My point is that gay men are no better about this than straight men.  And when it comes to the feeling part, I&#8217;m no better than anyone else: I remember how I felt, watching Demetri Martin for the first time, when he got to the part where he said &#8220;but I&#8217;m not gay.&#8221;  Since Demetri Martin is just exactly my favorite kind of guy (his humor is exactly, precisely the kind I find funniest (except for his fart jokes)), and his physical appearance is far from repellent too, that wacky y-chromosome part of me was going &#8220;OH DAMMIT.&#8221;  Silly, huh?</p>
<p>And clever name, btw.</p>
<p><strong>Salem1692 56:</strong> What color is the sky on your planet?  And what do they call people with IQs over 80&#8230;when they visit?</p>
<p><strong>Glen 70:</strong> Pics or it didn&#8217;t happen.</p>
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		<title>By: aphrael</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153040</link>
		<dc:creator>aphrael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:19:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153040</guid>
		<description>Greg: i regularly develop crushes on my coworkers and classmates. But ... I&#039;m married, so those crushes can&#039;t go anywhere. Which means I rarely disclose them, because ... what&#039;s the point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg: i regularly develop crushes on my coworkers and classmates. But &#8230; I&#8217;m married, so those crushes can&#8217;t go anywhere. Which means I rarely disclose them, because &#8230; what&#8217;s the point?</p>
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		<title>By: Glen Murie</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153037</link>
		<dc:creator>Glen Murie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153037</guid>
		<description>Nothing personal, but you&#039;re not devastatingly handsome. It&#039;s not a bad thing mind you, I&#039;m straight and for about twenty years of my life I got hit on by gay men a lot.

Apparently, I have a nice butt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing personal, but you&#8217;re not devastatingly handsome. It&#8217;s not a bad thing mind you, I&#8217;m straight and for about twenty years of my life I got hit on by gay men a lot.</p>
<p>Apparently, I have a nice butt.</p>
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		<title>By: Mycroft W</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153035</link>
		<dc:creator>Mycroft W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153035</guid>
		<description>Men hit on women, and &quot;have to&quot; be obnoxious and cavalier about it, for the same reasons market research operators (maybe more accurately telemarketing operators) have to - it&#039;s a numbers game, and most of the numbers are labelled &quot;no.&quot;  At least, that&#039;s the common way of looking at it, and a lot of the guys that are uncomfortable with the idea of being around gays operate that way.

In that worldview, women - and only women - get hit on.  Which is good, because they&#039;re pretty obnoxious about it.  They don&#039;t mind the thought of women giving them the same treatment, mostly because in their mind it wouldn&#039;t get to the obnoxious point, because they&#039;ll say &quot;Yes&quot; (for some reason, in their fantasies, only women they&#039;d be attracted to (to be fair, that would be a large majority) would do that).  But a guy...

And oh yeah, these are probably the sort of men who can work with women and sleep with women.  But any other kind of relationship doesn&#039;t make sense to them, except as it could lead into the latter.  So, of course, all guys are like that.

Ask one of theis sort if they would enjoy being in a communal co-ed shower; whether they would look at the women; stare; ask for dates; whatever.  Now realize that they think all of that *does* apply whenever Teh Gay shows up, and maybe, just maybe, what&#039;s good for the goose is a little different when the gander is being gandered...

Of course, as one of those people who needs to be more selfish and more assertive in my sexual world to get up to &quot;unobnoxiously normal - you probably can&#039;t push hard enough to be selfish or obnoxious&quot; (as all my partners, and other women I have as friends, have said) I don&#039;t get it.  But I did come to a bridge game with my (&lt;5&#039;, terminally cute, blonde, female) partner one day, and said &quot;I think I get it better now.  I don&#039;t mind getting hit on - in fact I quite like it.  It should happen more often, really.  I don&#039;t mind getting hit on by guys; I&#039;ll probably say no, but you never know.  Slime, on the other hand? Ew.&quot;

So.  Projection.  Yeah.  My answer?  &quot;if someone propositions you and you don&#039;t feel like it, say &#039;no.&#039;  Straight, gay, ugly, married, looking for a kink you don&#039;t do, whatever.&quot;  Yeah, gay guys are going to hit on you, per capita, more than straight women.  It&#039;s the way society works, and the fear factor of getting it wrong with a violent backlash is more than balanced by &quot;guys make passes, women receive them.&quot;  But what does that have to do with anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Men hit on women, and &#8220;have to&#8221; be obnoxious and cavalier about it, for the same reasons market research operators (maybe more accurately telemarketing operators) have to &#8211; it&#8217;s a numbers game, and most of the numbers are labelled &#8220;no.&#8221;  At least, that&#8217;s the common way of looking at it, and a lot of the guys that are uncomfortable with the idea of being around gays operate that way.</p>
<p>In that worldview, women &#8211; and only women &#8211; get hit on.  Which is good, because they&#8217;re pretty obnoxious about it.  They don&#8217;t mind the thought of women giving them the same treatment, mostly because in their mind it wouldn&#8217;t get to the obnoxious point, because they&#8217;ll say &#8220;Yes&#8221; (for some reason, in their fantasies, only women they&#8217;d be attracted to (to be fair, that would be a large majority) would do that).  But a guy&#8230;</p>
<p>And oh yeah, these are probably the sort of men who can work with women and sleep with women.  But any other kind of relationship doesn&#8217;t make sense to them, except as it could lead into the latter.  So, of course, all guys are like that.</p>
<p>Ask one of theis sort if they would enjoy being in a communal co-ed shower; whether they would look at the women; stare; ask for dates; whatever.  Now realize that they think all of that *does* apply whenever Teh Gay shows up, and maybe, just maybe, what&#8217;s good for the goose is a little different when the gander is being gandered&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course, as one of those people who needs to be more selfish and more assertive in my sexual world to get up to &#8220;unobnoxiously normal &#8211; you probably can&#8217;t push hard enough to be selfish or obnoxious&#8221; (as all my partners, and other women I have as friends, have said) I don&#8217;t get it.  But I did come to a bridge game with my (&lt;5&#039;, terminally cute, blonde, female) partner one day, and said &quot;I think I get it better now.  I don&#039;t mind getting hit on &#8211; in fact I quite like it.  It should happen more often, really.  I don&#039;t mind getting hit on by guys; I&#039;ll probably say no, but you never know.  Slime, on the other hand? Ew.&quot;</p>
<p>So.  Projection.  Yeah.  My answer?  &quot;if someone propositions you and you don&#039;t feel like it, say &#039;no.&#039;  Straight, gay, ugly, married, looking for a kink you don&#039;t do, whatever.&quot;  Yeah, gay guys are going to hit on you, per capita, more than straight women.  It&#039;s the way society works, and the fear factor of getting it wrong with a violent backlash is more than balanced by &quot;guys make passes, women receive them.&quot;  But what does that have to do with anything?</p>
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		<title>By: Network Geek</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/06/30/somehow-i-think-the-new-york-times-would-be-deeply-disappointed-in-this-conversation/#comment-153034</link>
		<dc:creator>Network Geek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=7851#comment-153034</guid>
		<description>Yeah, well, it&#039;s been said enough times, but, I think it bears repeating...
I&#039;m a middle-aged, professional computer geek who&#039;s started to gain a little weight and lose a little hair, so I&#039;d be pretty damn flattered if *anyone* hit on me these days.  Hell, I think twice before I shoo a dog off me.

I have a couple of gay friends who I tell more and understand me better than my ex-wife ever did or heard.  They know I&#039;m straight and if they&#039;re attracted to me at all, they&#039;ve never let on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, well, it&#8217;s been said enough times, but, I think it bears repeating&#8230;<br />
I&#8217;m a middle-aged, professional computer geek who&#8217;s started to gain a little weight and lose a little hair, so I&#8217;d be pretty damn flattered if *anyone* hit on me these days.  Hell, I think twice before I shoo a dog off me.</p>
<p>I have a couple of gay friends who I tell more and understand me better than my ex-wife ever did or heard.  They know I&#8217;m straight and if they&#8217;re attracted to me at all, they&#8217;ve never let on.</p>
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