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	<title>Comments on: The Big Idea: Sarah A. Hoyt</title>
	<atom:link href="http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/</link>
	<description>I FORGET WHAT EIGHT WAS FOR</description>
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		<title>By: B. Durbin</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B. Durbin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 23:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We&#039;ll forgive you, Ms. Hoyt, as long as you keep writing more books.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ll forgive you, Ms. Hoyt, as long as you keep writing more books.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Hoyt</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185119</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah Hoyt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 20:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185119</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ack -- pardon horrible grammar in comment above.  I&#039;m normally not that bad.  I rarely make my copyeditors cry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ack &#8212; pardon horrible grammar in comment above.  I&#8217;m normally not that bad.  I rarely make my copyeditors cry.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Hoyt</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185118</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah Hoyt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 20:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with John that covers are not the topic.  However, it is interesting that nine times out of ten the buying decision revolves around a cover -- which no writer but the very successful ones have a say on.  The other time the decision to first pick up a book is based on the title, which houses often change.

Since I became a writer and acquainted with the publishing process, I have tried to ignore those cues and read the beginning of the book and back blurb before deciding.

Still, I must admit that I can&#039;t avoid my eye seeking out attractive covers, as I walk a bookstore.  I think that&#039;s why so many covers feature the (attractive) human form/face and why there is a filk called &quot;There is a bimbo on the cover of my book.&quot;  Humans focus on other humans, so it makes perfect marketing sense.  Blame the ape-brain.

And for the record, our sub-genre has NOTHING to blush for.  The only time I&#039;ve been embarrassed by the cover of a book I was reading was while coming back from the annual Romance Writers of America conference, reading one of the freebies.

The freebie is a good historical, with depth of characterization and no more than the obligatory romance sex (I read everything, but romance perhaps a little less than the rest.)  As usual, I had my nose in the book while boarding, till I got to my seat and put the book open face down on the seat (yes, I know, my husband hates it when I do that to books) while I put my suitcase up on the overhead compartment.  As I closed the lid and looked at my seat companions -- a middle aged lady and a young gentleman -- they were both staring from me to the book cover.  

This was when I realized that instead of the normal dragon, spaceship or even somewhat demure sf/f &quot;bimbo&quot; the book I was reading had as a cover... a regency lady straddling a regency gentleman, their clothes pulled &quot;just so&quot; that you KNEW what they were doing and the mind kind of filled the naughty bits in where the eye couldn&#039;t see them.

I cringed in my seat for two hours and I bought a kindle before I traveled again. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with John that covers are not the topic.  However, it is interesting that nine times out of ten the buying decision revolves around a cover &#8212; which no writer but the very successful ones have a say on.  The other time the decision to first pick up a book is based on the title, which houses often change.</p>
<p>Since I became a writer and acquainted with the publishing process, I have tried to ignore those cues and read the beginning of the book and back blurb before deciding.</p>
<p>Still, I must admit that I can&#8217;t avoid my eye seeking out attractive covers, as I walk a bookstore.  I think that&#8217;s why so many covers feature the (attractive) human form/face and why there is a filk called &#8220;There is a bimbo on the cover of my book.&#8221;  Humans focus on other humans, so it makes perfect marketing sense.  Blame the ape-brain.</p>
<p>And for the record, our sub-genre has NOTHING to blush for.  The only time I&#8217;ve been embarrassed by the cover of a book I was reading was while coming back from the annual Romance Writers of America conference, reading one of the freebies.</p>
<p>The freebie is a good historical, with depth of characterization and no more than the obligatory romance sex (I read everything, but romance perhaps a little less than the rest.)  As usual, I had my nose in the book while boarding, till I got to my seat and put the book open face down on the seat (yes, I know, my husband hates it when I do that to books) while I put my suitcase up on the overhead compartment.  As I closed the lid and looked at my seat companions &#8212; a middle aged lady and a young gentleman &#8212; they were both staring from me to the book cover.  </p>
<p>This was when I realized that instead of the normal dragon, spaceship or even somewhat demure sf/f &#8220;bimbo&#8221; the book I was reading had as a cover&#8230; a regency lady straddling a regency gentleman, their clothes pulled &#8220;just so&#8221; that you KNEW what they were doing and the mind kind of filled the naughty bits in where the eye couldn&#8217;t see them.</p>
<p>I cringed in my seat for two hours and I bought a kindle before I traveled again. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amanda]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Josh, glad you recognize sarcasm.  And I will apologize for naming you and then commenting on something several others had said.  When I did it, I thought you had said something similar as well.  However, addressing your comment about the font screaming Baen, what&#039;s wrong with that?  It is part of their branding and, with this cover in particular, the title stands out and isn&#039;t lost in the illustration.  It works.  To see what I mean, check out Lucienne Diver&#039;s blog where she mentions those books by her clients being released this month and look at their covers.  I suggest that DST stands out not only because of the font used, but also because the cover art is eye-catching.  Here&#039;s that link -- 

http://varkat.livejournal.com/136206.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh, glad you recognize sarcasm.  And I will apologize for naming you and then commenting on something several others had said.  When I did it, I thought you had said something similar as well.  However, addressing your comment about the font screaming Baen, what&#8217;s wrong with that?  It is part of their branding and, with this cover in particular, the title stands out and isn&#8217;t lost in the illustration.  It works.  To see what I mean, check out Lucienne Diver&#8217;s blog where she mentions those books by her clients being released this month and look at their covers.  I suggest that DST stands out not only because of the font used, but also because the cover art is eye-catching.  Here&#8217;s that link &#8212; </p>
<p><a href="http://varkat.livejournal.com/136206.html" rel="nofollow">http://varkat.livejournal.com/136206.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: John Scalzi</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185109</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Scalzi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185109</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Are we really going to get into it regarding Baen and other SF/F covers? It&#039;s really its own discussion, and I&#039;d really prefer to keep the focus on the novel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are we really going to get into it regarding Baen and other SF/F covers? It&#8217;s really its own discussion, and I&#8217;d really prefer to keep the focus on the novel.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Jasper</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185107</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh Jasper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amanda - &lt;i&gt;I know that in the past Baen, like so many other publishers, had cheesy covers and the like, but painting today’s covers with the same brush is like saying all science fiction is the same as it was in the days of the pulp magazines.&lt;/i&gt;
 
If you can point out where I implied that, I&#039;d be fascinated.

&lt;i&gt;...and finally because there will be someone who buys it because it does have a half naked woman on it. Welcome to marketing 101.&lt;/i&gt;

Welcome to sarcasm 101.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amanda &#8211; <i>I know that in the past Baen, like so many other publishers, had cheesy covers and the like, but painting today’s covers with the same brush is like saying all science fiction is the same as it was in the days of the pulp magazines.</i></p>
<p>If you can point out where I implied that, I&#8217;d be fascinated.</p>
<p><i>&#8230;and finally because there will be someone who buys it because it does have a half naked woman on it. Welcome to marketing 101.</i></p>
<p>Welcome to sarcasm 101.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Hoyt</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185106</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah Hoyt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay.  I am a woman in case this is not obvious.  I&#039;d have NOTICED undue treatment of women&#039;s bodies.  Most Baen books don&#039;t sexualize women in their covers.  Heck, most Baen books don&#039;t sexualize anyone in their covers.  The typical Baen book has &quot;scene from the novel&quot; illustrated on cover, which no other house does. (Or does as much)

http://www.amazon.com/Slanted-Jack-Mark-Van-Name/dp/1416591621/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1262974012&amp;sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Stormy-Red-Sky-David-Drake/dp/1416591591/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1262974051&amp;sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gentleman-Takes-Chance-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1439133255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1262974087&amp;sr=1-1

Leaving that aside and admitting that there is the occasional naked-woman cover on Baen books-- really?  You&#039;re going to argue that Baen is the only one that uses women&#039;s bodies to sell books?

I am given to understand I&#039;m stepping into the middle of some very odd ax grinding which -- to be honest -- I don&#039;t even understand, but this is specious reasoning.  Almost every house uses women&#039;s bodies to sell books, even when they&#039;re appealing mostly to women.  (And again color me confused.  I&#039;d rather have half-naked man on cover, say one of Valejo&#039;s early works.)

And some houses use that, like this: 

 http://www.amazon.com/Swallowing-Darkness-Meredith-Gentry-Novels/dp/0345495942/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1262973580&amp;sr=8-3

But then there&#039;s this:  http://www.amazon.com/Kitty-Midnight-Hour-Norville-Book/dp/0446616419/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1262973642&amp;sr=1-3

And this:  http://www.amazon.com/Speak-Devil-Morgan-Kingsley-Exorcist/dp/0440244935/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1262973676&amp;sr=1-1

Because you know, nothing to dress in to hunt creatures of the night like tight, sexy dom-like outfits.  No sexualizing of women&#039;s bodies there!

And what is the alternative, really?  Would you like me -- mid forties, forty pounds over weight and looking like someone&#039;s mom -- on a cover?  Heck, I wouldn&#039;t.  Or do you want scene from the novel?  Most of those are not particularly attractive. Which is WHY people sneer at &quot;Baen covers&quot; -- and it&#039;s no use telling me they don&#039;t, I&#039;ve heard it.  FROM people in the industry, like booksellers.

The target audience I&#039;m aiming for is Heinlein&#039;s &quot;People willing to spend their beer/chocolate money to buy a book.&quot;  IF my book can make them think, so much the better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay.  I am a woman in case this is not obvious.  I&#8217;d have NOTICED undue treatment of women&#8217;s bodies.  Most Baen books don&#8217;t sexualize women in their covers.  Heck, most Baen books don&#8217;t sexualize anyone in their covers.  The typical Baen book has &#8220;scene from the novel&#8221; illustrated on cover, which no other house does. (Or does as much)</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Slanted-Jack-Mark-Van-Name/dp/1416591621/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262974012&#038;sr=1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Slanted-Jack-Mark-Van-Name/dp/1416591621/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262974012&#038;sr=1-1</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Stormy-Red-Sky-David-Drake/dp/1416591591/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262974051&#038;sr=1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Stormy-Red-Sky-David-Drake/dp/1416591591/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262974051&#038;sr=1-1</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Gentleman-Takes-Chance-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1439133255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262974087&#038;sr=1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Gentleman-Takes-Chance-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1439133255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262974087&#038;sr=1-1</a></p>
<p>Leaving that aside and admitting that there is the occasional naked-woman cover on Baen books&#8211; really?  You&#8217;re going to argue that Baen is the only one that uses women&#8217;s bodies to sell books?</p>
<p>I am given to understand I&#8217;m stepping into the middle of some very odd ax grinding which &#8212; to be honest &#8212; I don&#8217;t even understand, but this is specious reasoning.  Almost every house uses women&#8217;s bodies to sell books, even when they&#8217;re appealing mostly to women.  (And again color me confused.  I&#8217;d rather have half-naked man on cover, say one of Valejo&#8217;s early works.)</p>
<p>And some houses use that, like this: </p>
<p> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Swallowing-Darkness-Meredith-Gentry-Novels/dp/0345495942/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262973580&#038;sr=8-3" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Swallowing-Darkness-Meredith-Gentry-Novels/dp/0345495942/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262973580&#038;sr=8-3</a></p>
<p>But then there&#8217;s this:  <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Kitty-Midnight-Hour-Norville-Book/dp/0446616419/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262973642&#038;sr=1-3" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Kitty-Midnight-Hour-Norville-Book/dp/0446616419/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262973642&#038;sr=1-3</a></p>
<p>And this:  <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Speak-Devil-Morgan-Kingsley-Exorcist/dp/0440244935/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262973676&#038;sr=1-1" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Speak-Devil-Morgan-Kingsley-Exorcist/dp/0440244935/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1262973676&#038;sr=1-1</a></p>
<p>Because you know, nothing to dress in to hunt creatures of the night like tight, sexy dom-like outfits.  No sexualizing of women&#8217;s bodies there!</p>
<p>And what is the alternative, really?  Would you like me &#8212; mid forties, forty pounds over weight and looking like someone&#8217;s mom &#8212; on a cover?  Heck, I wouldn&#8217;t.  Or do you want scene from the novel?  Most of those are not particularly attractive. Which is WHY people sneer at &#8220;Baen covers&#8221; &#8212; and it&#8217;s no use telling me they don&#8217;t, I&#8217;ve heard it.  FROM people in the industry, like booksellers.</p>
<p>The target audience I&#8217;m aiming for is Heinlein&#8217;s &#8220;People willing to spend their beer/chocolate money to buy a book.&#8221;  IF my book can make them think, so much the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Amanda</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Amanda]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Josh Jasper, yeah, Baen covers are good at selling to Baen&#039;s target audience.  Let&#039;s see, I&#039;m not exactly young.  I&#039;m female.  I&#039;m an avid reader.  I like SF/F when done well...yep, that&#039;s Baen&#039;s target audience -- readers.

Seriously, the cover art is eye catching and, if you read the first couple of pages of the book, you can see that the cover actually does have something to do with the plot.  I know that in the past Baen, like so many other publishers, had cheesy covers and the like, but painting today&#039;s covers with the same brush is like saying all science fiction is the same as it was in the days of the pulp magazines.

It is a truth that many readers buy a book based on its cover.  This cover will get people to pick the book up and make an impulse buy.  First, because it does scream &quot;urban fantasy&quot;.  Second, because it also screams &quot;SF&quot; and finally because there will be someone who buys it because it does have a half naked woman on it.  Welcome to marketing 101.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh Jasper, yeah, Baen covers are good at selling to Baen&#8217;s target audience.  Let&#8217;s see, I&#8217;m not exactly young.  I&#8217;m female.  I&#8217;m an avid reader.  I like SF/F when done well&#8230;yep, that&#8217;s Baen&#8217;s target audience &#8212; readers.</p>
<p>Seriously, the cover art is eye catching and, if you read the first couple of pages of the book, you can see that the cover actually does have something to do with the plot.  I know that in the past Baen, like so many other publishers, had cheesy covers and the like, but painting today&#8217;s covers with the same brush is like saying all science fiction is the same as it was in the days of the pulp magazines.</p>
<p>It is a truth that many readers buy a book based on its cover.  This cover will get people to pick the book up and make an impulse buy.  First, because it does scream &#8220;urban fantasy&#8221;.  Second, because it also screams &#8220;SF&#8221; and finally because there will be someone who buys it because it does have a half naked woman on it.  Welcome to marketing 101.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh Jasper</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185099</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh Jasper]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185099</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[FrancisT - Thank you for pointing out that book covers where women are sexualized are good at selling books to Baen&#039;s target audience.  I never would have figured that out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FrancisT &#8211; Thank you for pointing out that book covers where women are sexualized are good at selling books to Baen&#8217;s target audience.  I never would have figured that out.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Kidd</title>
		<link>http://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/01/07/the-big-idea-sarah-a-hoyt/#comment-185098</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoffrey Kidd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 17:33:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whatever.scalzi.com/?p=9626#comment-185098</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, I suspect &quot;branding&quot; has less to do with Baen&#039;s popularity than the fact that, unlike other publishers, they actually *listen* to their readers and talk to us. As far as I can tell, most of the other publishers have very nice sites for fluff and puff and &quot;Oh, here&#039;s one coming up!&quot;

But, just TRY to find &quot;feedback&quot; or &quot;contact us&quot; on, say, Harper Collins or Simon and Schuster. And DON&#039;T get me started on Tor&#039;s &quot;We&#039;ll give you eBooks when the Ninth Circle of Hell melts&quot; attitude.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I suspect &#8220;branding&#8221; has less to do with Baen&#8217;s popularity than the fact that, unlike other publishers, they actually *listen* to their readers and talk to us. As far as I can tell, most of the other publishers have very nice sites for fluff and puff and &#8220;Oh, here&#8217;s one coming up!&#8221;</p>
<p>But, just TRY to find &#8220;feedback&#8221; or &#8220;contact us&#8221; on, say, Harper Collins or Simon and Schuster. And DON&#8217;T get me started on Tor&#8217;s &#8220;We&#8217;ll give you eBooks when the Ninth Circle of Hell melts&#8221; attitude.</p>
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