Oh, SNAP

Spotted in various places on the Internet, in response to Governor Palin’s “community organizer” jab at Obama:

“Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.”

And oddly enough, Palin’s GOP role is to try to do to Obama what Pontius Pilate did to Jesus.

Mind you, look how that eventually turned out for Jesus. And also for Pontius Pilate.

170 Comments on “Oh, SNAP”

  1. And no, out here in the real world, Obama does not actually equal Jesus. Also, out here in the real world, one does not actually have international relations experience because one’s state happens to be next to Russia, either.

  2. Well……if the GOP team wins, I will be on my knees every day praying for John McCain’s health!

  3. If Jesus had spent his entire professional career as a “community organizer” they’d have something. But since Jesus spent the vast majority of his adult life as a carpenter, the comparison falls a bit flat.

  4. The story sure has changed in a hurry, from “she’s a hapless rube” to “she’s a ruthless assassin”. Guess that speech has a few people kinda spooked.

    That’s okay, we needed to have a designated Hate-Target in the McCain administration; she can take over that role from Cheney. Just don’t overdo it–word is, she’s a better shot than Cheney is.

    (I wonder if it’s too soon to talk about “Palin Derangement Syndrom”? Hm… looking at Kos, I’m thinking the answer is ‘nope’.)

  5. That must explain why Bush had so much foreign experience: Texas borders Mexico.

    Of course, Governor Palin has the advantage of being next to two countries: Canada and Russia. Clearly, she has twice the foreign policy experience as Bush did in 2000.

  6. The idea that Palin’s experience is anywhere near Obama’s rests upon a few carefully constructed lies.

    1. Obama’s primary experience before the US Senate is as a community organizer.
    Truth: Obama’s primary experience is as the state senator of the 13th district of Illinois, a district with a larger population than the entire state of Alaska.

    2. Governor Palin has competently made executive decisions, Obama has not.
    Truth: She took a debtless town and left it $20 million in debt(or roughly $4,000 per citizen) and in the midst of an big eminent domain dispute. The Alaskan economy she has supposedly managed well is the only state in the union with reverse taxation, due to oil revenues and the fact that 40% of their economy is government pork.

    Obama has, it is true, has never been an executive of a business or government. He was the director of the Developing Communities Project and Project Vote, which registered 150,000 new voters. I would say this is the equivalent of PTA board in terms of experience. He has, however, run one of the most competent and innovative campaigns in history for about two years, a half-billion dollar startup that took down the most formidable machine in politics. That has to count for something.

    3. Obama has no accomplishments.
    Truth: Bullshit. He has an impressive government reform record in the US Senate and the Illinois state senate. He wrote and passed the first ethics reform bill in Illinois in 25 years. He co-wrote and passed Obama-Feingold, the most sweeping ethics reform bill since Watergate. He co-wrote and passed Coburn-Obama, which set up an online searchable database tracking every dollar of government spending, including earmarks. Additionally, he wrote and helped pass a bill giving healthcare coverage to 150,000 Illinoisans. He wrote the first anti-racial profiling bill of its kind. He helped reform a death penalty system that sent dozens of innocent men to death row. He sent millions of dollars in aid to Congo and worked on a bill that would lock down loose conventional and nuclear weapons in the former Soviet Union. He helped pass the largest budget increase in the history of the VA.

    What has Palin ever done that matches up? Why is she obstructing the investigation into TrooperGate instead of hauling her behind back to Alaska to give her state mandated deposition to Investigator Branchflower? She gave a nice speech, but if she doesn’t submit to testifying under oath soon this could get really bad for the McCain campaign.

  7. John, the mere fact that the very first comment is from you, disclaiming the fact that Obamaniacs have actually publicy compared their candidate to Jesus speaks of Kook-Aid, again.

    And Palin’s international experience has nothing to do with Russia, but with some sort of oil pipeline deal she negotiated with Canada, which isn’t a big deal, but is one more international deal that Obama – or McCain, or Biden – have negotiated.

    In the end, though, it looks like Palin was the most brilliant choice possible for McCain. The yammering ‘tards keep yammering about how she was chosen to appeal to disaffected Hillary supporters (and it won’t work), when, in fact, she was chosen to appeal to religious conservative Republicans. And she does. And every time some sin that’s only a sin to conveservatives comes out -like a 17 year old daughter being pregnant – it just makes her that much more one of them when she handles it well – like the teenage boy stepping up and taking responsibility, and marriage plans and him being welcomed in to the family. Hell, a lot of conservative Republicans will be grateful she’s willing to breed at all. Some will breath a sigh of relief that she’s interested in *men*.

    And the more solidly she’s one of them, the conservative religious right, the more McCain can pander to the undecided middle. And the more the left wingnuts spout shrill, hysterical, and usually *bad* lies, the more the middle is turned off by how insane Democrats seem to be (yeah, it’s a tiny minority, but they’re the ones getting the press right now), and the more likely they are to vote for an increasingly moderate Republican. Especially when Obama’s lack of experience shows more and more in his unawareness of how much damage those wingnuts are doing to his campaign, much less stepping on them to shut them up.

    But then, I’ve been saying for a while that McCain won the White House when Hillary lost the nomination. Not that she could have won either.

  8. I love the proximity-equals-expertise meme. I live near a hospital, so I’m a brain surgeon.

    It just amazes me that people buy this BS. To paraphrase an old George S. Kaufman line, “I know you were born yesterday, but what time yesterday?”

  9. “And Palin’s international experience has nothing to do with Russia, but with some sort of oil pipeline deal she negotiated with Canada, which isn’t a big deal, but is one more international deal that Obama – or McCain, or Biden – have negotiated.”

    Did she actually negotiate with Canada? Or just Canadian companies?

  10. “when, in fact, she was chosen to appeal to religious conservative Republicans.”

    No, no, no, no, no, Terry. Religious conservative republicans HATE women, especially women who have jobs outside the home and get pregnant before they’re married. HATE, hate, hate, hate, hate.
    They’re haters, Terry. When are you going to get that?
    Just like they’re against Obama ’cause he doesn’t look like all the presidents on the dollar bills they love so much. He’s black, Terry. That’s why they don’t like him. If you don’t understand the enemy Terry, you can never defeat him. (snigger)

  11. Abe:

    2. Governor Palin has competently made executive decisions, Obama has not.
    Truth: She took a debtless town and left it $20 million in debt(or roughly $4,000 per citizen) and in the midst of an big eminent domain dispute. The Alaskan economy she has supposedly managed well is the only state in the union with reverse taxation, due to oil revenues and the fact that 40% of their economy is government pork.

    That’s a lot more complicated than you (and the other liberal bloggers) make it out to be. A whole lot more complicated. The debt was for the construction of a sports complex that has been quite successful. The debt is half paid off after four years of operation, and is significantly ahead of schedule on its payment plan. Purely as a business decision, it was clearly an excellent idea. And it is very unclear excatly how the city came to build it on land it apparently did not actually own, but it seems likely to me that someone other than the mayor – maybe the city’s attorney – screwed that up. Real estate isn’t always simple.

    While it is entirely possible that Palin is partially responsible for a mess, it seems very, very likely that the responsibility is shared among many. In any event, the continual parroting of the “she left the town in debt” line, with no details, has reach the point of dishonesty. The facts aren’t hard to find.

  12. So, now the Big O is running for Vice President? Because, you know, it’s now “Our number 1 is better than your number 2” kind of thing – which seems to be obvious. I’d say they are about the same -woefully underprepared for what will happen if their ticket wins. The downside is much larger with the O, however.

  13. I hate for my first comment here to be a religious one, but oh well: The most straightforward interpretation of the standard Christian gospels paint Pilate as innocent of everything except not standing up to a crowd. His fate remains a mystery.

    Granted, there’s other stories and ways to interpret him as guilty and manipulative. I’m just pointing out the line, while funny, isn’t actually that well-rooted: Pilate being firmly established as the villain of the story is just a western tradition.

  14. Jon H:

    My understanding is that she was personally involved, probably dealing with her counterpart on the Canadian side. It seems pretty certain that company executives were involved on both sides, too, and quite likely they did most of actual work. Nevertheless, that’s more international experience than Obama, McCain or Biden have.

    Skar:

    You’re still a moron, and, I imagine, always will be. Virtually all of the public criticism of Palin comes from liberals, not from conservatives, much less religious ultra-conservatives. If they’re not criticizing her, and the left is, doesn’t that suggest that, perhaps, they’re rather happier with her than the left? Or maybe not, you not being the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, and all.

    The thing is, there’s plenty about Palin the left could legitimately criticize her for, starting with some very conservative, religious based beliefs. But they’re not criticizing for any of that. Instead, they seem to prefer retarded lies, like the dumbass stuff about her faking a pregnancy. I swear, KOS Daily must be working directly for McCain, to have come up with something that makes the left look that stupid.

    You’re a member there, aren’t you Skar?

  15. Jesus wasn’t really a community organizer. Nor was Pontius Pilate really a governor. Pilate was a prefect, which was more akin to a military governor, like MacArthur in Japan or Jay Garner in Iraq.

    And Jesus didn’t really organize people so much as wander around and talk at them.

  16. JReynolds:

    That must explain why Bush had so much foreign experience: Texas borders Mexico.

    Not entirely accurate. Texas also borders the USA, so they have equal foreign experience.

    If *anything* disproves the “‘executive experience’ as a Governor is a good thing” argument, it’s W. Yikes.

  17. Skar @ 3
    Eleanor Rosaveldt, MLK, Ghandi and the founders of AA were also community organizers. And Jesus didn’t get the press for his carpentry. The obsession of the right-wing evangelicals with the old testament and near-total distain for the messages in the new does fit in with this line of theirs, however.

    Andrew @ 4
    While I’ve never claimed “she’s a hapless rube” her background shows plenty of training to be an attack dog politician. This is a woman who has graduated from Newt’s state and local speech training and patronage school and Pat Buchanan’s pitchfork brigades, a woman who was head of Ted Steven’s 527 and who had 10% of her total campaign funding in her Asst. Gov. run paid for by Steven’s Vesco corp. buddies. I’ve never said she was hapless, just that while she has become an effective campaigning and PR spinning politician; I can see that as an actual functioning elected official, she has shown herself to be a terrible choice.

  18. I’ve just listened to a little of Palin’s speech. She says, “Ixperts.” Am I the only one that thinks she sounds like Lina Lamont after elocution lessons?

  19. Nargel says: ‘Sarah Palin is Nehemiah Scudder with a sex change.’

    Well, sign me up to be one of the Prophet’s “consecrated virgins”, then!

  20. This claim that Obama’s campaign experience makes him more qualified to be president of the United States of America is truly cringe-worthy. A simple reductio ad absurdum should suffice to demonstrate – use your imagination.

    Does anyone really think that the skills required to win the presidency are the same as those required to be an effective president? If so, I’d like you to meet George W. Bush.

  21. I think Palin is proof that the Republican party is in bed with big oil, considering the occupation of her husband…

  22. Andrew S:

    Oh, please, please, please attack Sarah Palin for talking funny. If at all possible, please do it on the nightly news.

    Don’t worry. I’m certain somebody will, in fact, do just that. And it won’t be the stupidest thing the liberal pundits do that day, either. I’ll be you dinner on it.

  23. Terry Austin:

    “John, the mere fact that the very first comment is from you, disclaiming the fact that Obamaniacs have actually publicy compared their candidate to Jesus speaks of Kook-Aid, again.”

    Well, no. It speaks of “Someone here will be stupid enough to say ‘so, you’re comparing Obama to Jesus then, are you?'” so I thought I’d get out front of that.

    But of course I’d like to thank everyone for living up to my expectations.

    Personally I thought it was just a clever retort.

  24. Some folk have heralded Sarah Palin as being a Heinlein character.

    Red-headed, smart, charismatic, shoots guns a bunch.

    I agree. She is a Heinlein character.

    I look at the bible in her hand and see Nehemiah Scudder in high heels.

  25. Man, right wing nuts really like snide remarks don’t they? I guess when your nominee, policy and party all are bankrupt, you have no choice, isn’t that true, Terry Austin?

  26. emeraldciteon:

    I think Palin is proof that the Republican party is in bed with big oil, considering the occupation of her husband…

    Actually, she has a strong reputation of standing firm against big oil companies when their interests and the public’s do not coincide. Like promoting a bill that increases oil taxes when oil prices go up, and restarting negotiations on a pipeline that had stalled because her predecessor was too weak to insist on guarantees that construction would actually happen once the oil companies collected their “incentives.” Or forcing Exxon Mobile to start drilling in a spot – outside the wildlife reserve – where they’ve had a license for decades, les they lose said license.

    The Wall Street Journal paints a convincing picture of a governor who is more intersted in protecting the public’s interests than in either cooperating with big oil, or punishing it.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122005404357685123.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news

    (And that note at the bottom about the “ethics violations” is complete BS. Even the legislature has noted, on the record, that they haven’t bothered to issue any subpeonas because she has been so cooperative. And at the time the incident occured, said brother in law had threatened to murder her father if he paid for a divorce attorney for his own daughter.)

  27. John:

    Methinks the Lady doth protest too much.

    Chris:

    I prefer being snide to spreading other people’s lies.

  28. Terry Austin:

    Who you callin’ a lady?!?!

    Although I do look ravishing in a corset.

    Hmmm. Forget I wrote that.

  29. I’ll assume you meant that to read “morally bankrupt”, or “politically bankrupt”, because that sounds head-scratchingly odd the way you wrote it, Chris.

    It’s always so amusing to watch people claim the moral high ground in political poo-flinging fights. If Republicans have a monopoly on snide comments, Democrats owe them several bajillion dollars in rent, because their little silver top hat has been visiting our square quite consistently.

    Ok, that analogy was a bit stretched.

  30. John:

    That’s no lady, that’s my wife?

    In any event, you’d look your very best with bacon taped to your side.

    And the only way I’ll ever get the mental image of you in a corset out of my head is with a Makita and a very large drill bit.

  31. Augist:

    It’s always so amusing to watch people claim the moral high ground in political poo-flinging fights.

    Boy, you got that right. And over the running mate that doesn’t matter. The most brilliant aspect of McCain’s choice for running mate is that now everybody is talking about his VP instead of the Democratic candidate. Just brilliant.

    And for the record, you know that old cliche about not wrestling with a pig, cuz you’ll get dirty and the pig will enjoy it? Well, I’m the pig. Oink.

    (And for the record, despite how it sounds here, I’m not a big fan of McCain, either. I dislike him less, because he’s only batshit crazy once in a while, but Obama is arrogant and inexperienced all the time, but it’s a thin, thin margin.)

  32. For a second, I thought you wrote “with an Akita and a very large drill bit”. I love this blog for its weirdness, but that would have been truly odd.

  33. #29 & #31
    When they start going on about her accent, lookout. They’ll everyone from north of Iowa (with similar accents) suddenly taking her side…

    Besides, the only reason we talk like that is because we have to give speeches at -30 f. I kinda freezes the lips and cheeks…makes those smiley sounding long vowels hard to pronounce. :)

    30# emeraldcite
    Actually, she’s in bed with a union steel worker…whose local happens to have a lot of guys working for BP.

    #All
    Jesus wasn’t a community organizer at all…according to his own words in Matthew 10:34-36

    34″Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
    ‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law –
    36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

    So whichever one you want to compare to Jesus, they must be the divisive one…not the organizer.

    And Pilate, he wanted to let him go, but was too scared of the political backlash. (John 18:28-19:16)

    Just food for thought.

  34. Terry Austin:

    On that note, should you need the services of an Akita, I know where one could be had.

  35. John, that’s *M*akita, and I can borrow one from work for free, should I decide that I simply can’t live with the image of you in a corset till my dying day.

    Now, about the bacon taped to your side. I say shirtless, taped directly to your chest hair, cuz what’s good for the cat is good for the human, after all.

  36. 49# Terry Austinon 04 Sep 2008 at 7:49 pm
    Now, about the bacon taped to your side. I say shirtless, taped directly to your chest hair, cuz what’s good for the cat is good for the human, after all.

    You guys do that in the lower 48 too? That’s one of the most sure fire tactics for bear hunting! See, we Alaskans aren’t all that different. ;)

  37. Ah, like how you headed off the obvious conclusions jumpers there at the pass at #1, JS. Obama ain’t the 2nd coming people want him to be and he’s got one hell of a job ahead of him before he makes flying rainbow unicorns of joy fly out into our bank accounts and gas tanks.

    Sarah Palin is the devil, though.

  38. andrew@29

    Sure, andrew, glad to. I’ve thought all along that Mccain knew everything he needed to before he picked Palin. I don’t think anything that has happened has been a surprise. I think they hoped to draw out exactly the kind of vicious misogynistic criticism that they’ve gotten so far, criticism that even misogynists won’t be able to excuse and I think that the pendulum will swing because of it. Palin will get far more gentle handling than Clinton ever did.

    That said, a lot was riding on whether or not Palin came across well at the convention. And all the articles I’ve read in main-stream places seem to think that she did. So I listened to part of the speech and I am stunned to find that she sounds like someone right out of a high school debate club. God, was she bad. These are the “fighting words?” This is “Sarah Barracuda?”

    Yes. she sounds like Lina Lamont– an idiot who was coached to nth degree and still had to be replaced in the end by a voiceover.

    I have always thought that Obama wasn’t running for President so much as he was following a script written by Aaron Sorkin and that the press has been complicit from the beginning in making everyone feel good (why it’s like watching a movie!) because it makes for good ratings. And now, with Sarah Palin, I see the same thing. People are more interested in the “arc” than in any reality.

  39. Mind you, look how that eventually turned out for Jesus. And also for Pontius Pilate.

    What .. that the former was executed for being an offense to good order. The latter retired to a villa in Rome, dandled grandchildren over his knee and died in bed a wealthy man.

  40. I’m quite sure scotch tape would not stick to my chest hair, and I do not intent to level up to duct tape, so there will be no bacon taping to the human. Today. Without significant monies involved.

    Brian Dunbar:

    Existentially, man. Look what happened to them existentially.

    Darn literalists!

  41. John, you’re a coward when it comes to pain. Which is to say, you’re smarter than my shoes. I could get you a discount on acetone, which will take that duct tape right off, even stuck to hair.

    Of course, then your chest hair would be soacked with a mildly toxic, very flammable liquid that will leave nasty chemical burns in your skin, but at least the cat would be avenged.

    I do have to say, my favorite thing ab out the bacon cat picture is the look on his face. It seems to say, “I think my human is broken. Again.”

  42. As an European citizen that (unfortunately) is going to see the politics of his country and continent heavily influenced by the next President of the USA, the more I read about Palin the more I’m worried that she could become President.
    The gas line built because “God wanted it”, the war in Iraq because “God wanted it”, it’s really scary to think that a religious fanatic with ties to the dominionists could be in control of the most powerful country of this world.

  43. Existenially? I didn’t realize there was a Secretary of Existentialism in the cabinet.

  44. Terry Austin:

    “John, you’re a coward when it comes to pain.”

    I prefer to think of it as “selective to its introduction in my everyday life.”

    Anyway, I ate one of those damned bacon beans today. I’ve been punished enough on the altar of bacon for one day.

  45. The more I think about politics, the more important it seems to be to just vote your conscience, put your shoulder to the wind and try to just do well by doing good despite all the hurtling donkey-shite being flung around the place for no discernable reason.

    Gee, though, it’d be great if someone was up for election who’s whole platform was:

    “The Constitution? I love it. Bill of Rights? Yeah, I’m so a fan. I’ll uphold ’em! That would be the oath I swear, and stuff, so yeah – I’ll just do that. Where’s my VETO stamp? I need 200 red ink pads. And a wrist rest. And some ibuprofen.”

  46. Wait, was Jesus really a community organizer? From what I read those guys he was with really weren’t that organized. I mean, remember that whole “Bread and Fishes” faux pas?

  47. Stop it, MarkHB. My wife hates it when I get that wistful look in my eyes and drool all over the keyboard.

  48. And all he’d do is scrawl under the big, red VETO is…

    “This law is not supported in any way by the Constitution of the United States, nor it’s Bill of Rights.”

    Then sign under that.

    Hence the ibuprofen.

  49. Terry Austin wrote: “The debt was for the construction of a sports complex that has been quite successful.”

    Nope. It’s a money pit.

  50. The fact that her state is right next to Russia doesn’t count for anything. But Russia and Alaska have the same number of letters, and I think that does matter.

  51. Personally, I think the far right is threatened by community organizers. We see what is disturbingly WRONG with this country up close.

    I volunteer, along with my DH & children (note–NOT PAID TO DO THIS) for an organization that provides those in need with food, clothes, basic medical screening, and help connecting to community resources in Minneapolis—— just across the river from the RNC.

    I must be an awful person for feeding hungry children and helping their (usually) working-poor, USA-born, English-speaking parents find the resources to keep them all off the streets, fed, clothed and provided wiht access to medical care.

    My mother must be even worse–she teaches literacy to adults–and all of her students so far were born in the USA, and work at least two jobs.

    Oh, and we help register voters and drive people to the polls on election day, commies that we are.

    OMG, what planet did Palin fall off of to think that community organizing has no value and takes no skill? Let me tell you, it is hard work and a tremendous amount of organization goes into it.

    Thank goodness for all of the community organizers out there who keep neighborhoods going when needed services are not provided by the local government.

    (steps off soap box)

  52. Terry Austin wrote: “My understanding is that she was personally involved, probably dealing with her counterpart on the Canadian side.”

    So that would be a provincial official, not a top-level government official.

  53. He or she or it. I don’t have an issue with a man or woman, black white orange puce or heliotrope in the big chair, as long as they just sit there going….

    “Unconstitutional”.

    *thump*
    *scribble*

    “Unconstitutional”.

    *thump*
    *scribble*

    Rinse, repeat.

    I think we need about 142 terms of that to clean out the backlog of crap that’s in violation of both those documents. Then we should be good to do the partisan crap again for a few years.

    Or leave the Oval empty. That works, too.

  54. I don’t know why people are so against Palin, I think she will really bring reform and change. C’mon, she is an evangelical Christian from a large State with massive oil reserves, that believes God wants us in Iraq. What a refreshing and maverick viewpoint that counters all those D.C. elitists.

  55. “C’mon, she is an evangelical Christian”

    Let’s not give mere evangelicals a bad name. She’s a kooky dominionist Christian.

  56. Actually she’s a kooky dominionist Christian who wants to ban books and is prepared to fire librarians who disagree with that.

  57. *sobs into his beer*

    Thank you, Sarah Frakkin’ Palin, for turning my repatriation into a bible-flailing nightmare.

    Here’s to you, Colonel Tigh – and a third term for Bush!

    *glug, glug, glug*

  58. Will people stop defending librarians and THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

    Are librarians community organizers or organizers for the community?

  59. August wrote: “Does anyone really think that the skills required to win the presidency are the same as those required to be an effective president? If so, I’d like you to meet George W. Bush.”

    I don’t think anyone would credit the assertion that George W. Bush’s role in his own campaigns was anything like that of Obama’s.

    Bush can’t seem to function without a Cheney or Rove pulling his strings. He couldn’t even be allowed to testify about 9/11 on his own. The dude is a dependent child of advanced years. He can’t even command a freaking Segway competently.

    So, no, the two are not comparable.

  60. Terry Austin (and his various killfile-evading personae) has been in my Usenet killfile for years. Is there a way to killfile him here?

  61. No. He hasn’t done anything here that merits me killfiling him. If you don’t want to read him, skip over his posts.

  62. Jon H @ 68
    ;-) I just e mailed that link to a dozen people.
    And Palin says she wants to do for the rest of the country what she did for Wassilla and Alaska.

  63. There would be a lot of people banned if it was. And some of the banned would probably be mightily surprised.

  64. A kooky “End Times” Dominionist Christian, who’s pastor told his congregation that if they voted Kerry or criticized Bush they were going to hell, that Jesus supported war, and that Alaska was going to be a refuge during the coming Armageddon.

    And then, of course, there’s her involvement with a state secession movement.

    And she’s an anti-gay bigot.

    Yeah, she’s a real sterling example of what the GOP is all about.

  65. Jon Hon:

    Nope. It’s a money pit.

    Then how is it that they’re making extra payments, and the loan is half paid off in four years?

    As for Zora, well, I love you too, sweetie. But TINU (This Is Not Usenet).

    (And the one who’d be the most surprised at being banned might well be John himself, since Scott Adams was very wise when he came up with the Dilbert Principle.)

  66. Josh Jasperon:

    And she’s an anti-gay bigot.

    Who vetoed a bill that would have denied benefits to same sex partners, on the theory that it would be bad to enact laws that are obviously unconstitutional.

    Perhaps it’s a bit more complicated than you’d like to admit.

  67. Terry Austin:

    Indeed I would be very surprised to be banned on a site I administer. That would take some doing.

  68. Terry@20:
    “You’re still a moron, … aren’t you Skar?”
    Terry, the internet being what it is, you missed the sarcasm. I thought I’d made it clear with the “(snigger)” but obviously not. I am in complete agreement with you up until post 20, I haven’t read past that at this point but I expect that I’ll agree with most of what you have to say past that point too. My apologies if I misled you into thinking that I actually hold any of the views I espoused in post 15.

  69. Terry:

    I’m trying to figure out if you thought Skar’s very obvious sarcasm in #15 was serious, or if you were in on the joke and just making it look like you thought he was serious.

  70. After the many abuses of office, whether Mayor or Governator, and the consistent secretive government operations (claims of state executive privilage, fer gahd’s sake!), I would agree that 4 more years (at best) of what we’ve gotten is the Palin Improvement to the McCain ticket.

  71. Urgh. I reloaded the page before posting, even!

    Hi there, Skar. Nice seeing you again at Worldcon.

  72. Actually, John, if WordPress is anything like any of the CMS systems I’ve dealt with, it is probably disturbingly easy to ban yourself. Whether you intend to or not. Always have a backup administrator account ready, just in case. I was just commenting that at some time or other, everyone is an idiot (the Dilbert Principle).

    As for Skar, I don’t actually read much of his stuff, because when I did, it was all proof that he is an idiot. Him, I’m quite willing to dismiss out of hand for that reason. Whether he agrees with me or not.

  73. Terry@94
    Wow. If I remembered seeing you post before I might have some idea of why you have such a low opinion of me. Clue? Please?

  74. Given that in US politics there appears to be no high ground anymore it still amuses one to read the positively infantile ways that the party’s various attention whores go about their business. Let’s just hope that the eventual winner of the beauty contest manages to remember a little bit about the reason that constitutional government exists in the first place.

  75. Terry, you’re wrong. “We have no more judicial options. We may disagree with the rationale behind the ruling, but our responsibility is to proceed forward with the law and follow the Constitution.” -Sarah Palin

    She’s pro Alaska, and follows it’s constitution. I’ll give her that.

    But wait, there’s more…

    “I disagree with the recent court decision because I feel as though Alaskans spoke on this issue with its overwhelming support for a Constitutional Amendment in 1998 which defined marriage as between a man and woman. But the Supreme Court has spoken and the state will abide.” – Sarah Palin

    Anti gay bigot. No more complicated than that.

  76. Why does everyone concentrate on the community organizer job? he held that for 3 years right out of college then moved on.

    From this site http://obamasresume.org/

    Organizing and other work experience
    *
    1983-1984 Writer/Researcher for Business International Corporation. Helped companies understand overseas markets in the “Financing Foreign Operations” service and wrote for the “Business International Money Report”
    *
    1984-1985 Community Organizer for New York Public Interest Research Group (PIRG), promoting personal, community, and government reform at City College in Harlem.
    *
    1985-1988 Director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland on Chicago’s South Side. While director grew the DCP staff from 1 to 13 and their budget from $70,000 to $400,000.
    *
    1992 Led Chicago’s Project Vote! push. This effort resulted in a record number of voter registrations, over 600,000 in Chicago. 1)
    *
    Teaching
    *
    1993-2004 Visiting Law and Government Fellow, then Senior Lecturer, in Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School. Taught courses on the due process and equal protection areas of constitutional law, on voting rights, and on racism and law. Helped develop a casebook on voting rights.
    *
    Law Practice
    *
    1993-2002 Worked as an associate attorney with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Represented non-profits and private individuals in urban development projects, voting rights cases, and wrongful firings. Filed major suit that forced the state of Illinois to enforce the Motor Voter Law and successfully argued a wrongful firing case before the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals.
    *
    Illinois Senate 1996-2004
    *
    United States Senate 2004-present

  77. JimF:

    “Why does everyone concentrate on the community organizer job?”

    Because those were the talking points they were given, obviously.

  78. I thought Palin’s remark was funny as hell.

    Sure, it insults everyone who is, or knows and is proud of, a Community Organizer.

    But then, I suspect Palin knew this. It wasn’t like she was aiming for the Community Organizer contingent. She was aiming for everyone who thinks Community Organizer is code for Professional Protest Organizer.

  79. Josh Jasperon:

    Terry, you’re wrong

    Everything else you said agreed with me. She is personally very opposed to gay marriage. But she vetoed a bill that would have violated the state’s constitution, even so. I didn’t say she wasn’t morally opposed to gay marriage (which, BTW, isn’t necessarily the same thing as being an anti-gay bigot). I said she vetoed a bill she personally was in favor of because it would be constitutional. You said, explicitly, She’s pro Alaska, and follows it’s constitution. I’ll give her that.

    That is exactly what I said.

    Where do you actually disagree? It is more complicated than “she’s an anti-gay bigot.” It is very obvious, and you agree, that she has higher priorities than that, starting with obeying the state’s constitution even when it means doing things she doesn’t want to do. To reduce her to “an anti-gay bigot” and nothing more when you agree that she will suppress her personal feelings in the interests of governing well and constitutionally seems rather dishonest, to tell you the truth.

    And there are, BTW, a lot of people who oppose gay marriage without being anti-gay bigots. We have a *lot* of them here in California. I know quite a few, in fact, including some very religious Catholics. Their stance is considerably more complicated than could be reduced to one sound byte phrase. I have yet to see anything, one way or the other, to indicate Palin’s feelings on anything other than domestic partnership benefits being denied by law. I suspect she is personally offended by practicing gays – that would be consistent with what her reilgious beliefs seem to be. But I’ve seen nothing to support that whatsoever.

    Once again, there are lots of things about her that the left could legitimately criticize, but they seem to prefer to keep pounding the dead horse of bad lies, instead.

  80. There certainly seems to be a split in the country. Some think that “community organizer” is a proud and noble profession that should not be insulted. Others think “community organizer” ranks somewhere around “tv evangelist” on the scale of occupations that funnel money from the well-meaning to the unethical.

    I personally was surprised to see how many people fall into the first category, as I’ve always been in the second.

  81. Terry @ 102
    The fact that Palin consistantly spouts bad lies, reiterates them and stands by them seems to be a legitimate thing to criticize. ;)

    Anny Mouse @ 89
    In part, that is likely to be due to the republican rhetorical fondness for shifting the goal posts.

  82. I just found this on cnn.com:

    ” (CNN) — Aides to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin improperly obtained her former brother-in-law’s state police personnel files and cited information from those records to raise complaints about the officer, the head of Alaska’s state police union said Thursday.

    “It’s apparent to us that the governor or someone on her staff had direct access to his personnel file, as well as his workers’ comp file, and those are protected,” said John Cyr, executive director of the Alaska Public Safety Employees Association. ”

    WOW, there’s her high-minded ethics hard at work.

  83. Terry
    I remember you now. You’re no longer posting as taustin I see. LOL.

    Whew, for a second there I was feeling bad that I had elicited such venom from you.
    (chortle)

  84. Why is the focus on his job as a “community organizer”?

    You don’t really want them to start talking about him being a lawyer, do you?

    You thought the community organizer jokes are bad…

  85. The thing is, there’s plenty about Palin the left could legitimately criticize her for, starting with some very conservative, religious based beliefs. But they’re not criticizing for any of that. Instead, they seem to prefer retarded lies, like the dumbass stuff about her faking a pregnancy.

    I admit it, I don’t read any of the Daily Kos diaries. But the place I mostly saw the fake-pregnancy rumor was LiveJournal, and the places I saw posts about Troopergate and her mayoral record and religious fundamentalism were big-name political blogs like TPM. So I guess LiveJournal is “the left” and TPM isn’t.

  86. And there are, BTW, a lot of people who oppose gay marriage without being anti-gay bigots. We have a *lot* of them here in California

    …and they’re anti-gay bigots. Not the nasty, “let’s go cruising for fags to beat up” variety, but bigots nonetheless. Most people, including many very religious Catholics, are perfectly fine with the fact that civil marriage law does not fully reflect their faith’s definitions and strictures regarding marriages. Therefore, there is no reason for these formerly laissez-faire folks to get up in arms about same-sex marriage unless they simply don’t want gays to marry. And if you insist an entire group of people be legally designated Less Special Than Us, then yes, you’re a bigot.

    Cassie – the not-so-pretty hate machine is way ahead of you on that one.

  87. It’s really a high-school level tit-for-tat exchange; the Obama-ites emphasized that she was a small-town mayor, the McCain-ites responded by pointing out that O’s first public job was as a community organizer. Or maybe the other way around, I’m not sure who started it (and don’t really care, they are, by now, both wrong.)

    Today Obama was complaining about it, so I suspect that there will be more of it on both sides. Just because they’re professional politicians doesn’t mean they can’t be petty.

    ob link

  88. htom @ 112
    He wasn’t complaining, simply pointing out in response to a question comparing palin and him that he is running against McCain not Palin.

  89. Matt McIrvinon:

    I admit it, I don’t read any of the Daily Kos diaries. But the place I mostly saw the fake-pregnancy rumor was LiveJournal

    LiveJournal got it, ultimtaely, from Daily Kos, who are the oens who made it up. If they reported it as anything other than a retarded lie – now well, well proven to be not only not what happened, but impossible to have happened – then they are certainly not legitimate journalists.

    mythagoon:

    …and they’re anti-gay bigots

    For values of “anti-gay bigots” that equate to “anybody who I dont’ like.” Which makes the term meaingless. It isn’t gays they are designated Less Special Than Us, if anything, it’s heteros. But what they designate as special is the word “marriage.” It’s silly to claim that all aspects of a religious belief system – all aspects, every single one – must be equally held in all respects. There certainly are people who oppose gay marriage because they are anti-gay bigots, but there are others, and again, we have lots of them here, and I know a few, who believe that marriage, as a sacrament, is different, more important, than less venerated parts of their religion. They have their share of obstinant cluelessness, as they willfully ignore that the word has specific meaning legally, and focus entirely and only on the religious meaning. But that doesn’t make them anti-gay bigots, except in the most meaningless, anti-religion bigot sort of way (is some bigotry OK, but not all?).

  90. How DailyKos came to stand in for “The Left” is a tremendous mystery to many of us, who tend to view the great Cheeto site as a largish frat house with occassional moments of insight, usually lost in the next round of frat-boy swill.

    Where Palin stands on things is of minimal importance to me because I would vote for John McCain approximately the same time I would voluntarily chop off my own left hand. That Palin strikes me as a worse choice for President than McCain is merely the headwind that drops the ball behind the kicker rather than having it fall thirty yards short.

  91. The historical Jesus was a political agitator fighting the war to free Judea from tyranny. Crucifixion was the Roman punishment for sedition and not the Jewish punishment for blasphemy which was stoning.
    The Jesus of faith has been incarnated in many forms since the days of the historical Jesus, mostly for political and not spiritual purposes.
    The spiritual Jesus is available for those willing to find him. As he is known to have said: Seek and you shall find.
    There’s nothing in any of that in common with a ‘community organizer’.

  92. Nargel @ 117:

    Aerospace engineering and nuclear weapons design, two great hobbies that … well, can either get a whole city launched to Mars faster than anyone else can fry bacon, or get me in more trouble with Homeland Security in the same timespan than anyone here can reasonably imagine. Possibly both.

  93. Terry, lecturing LGBT people on who is or isn’t an anti-gay bigot because *you* think it’s somehow “more complicated” is rather pompous and egotistical.

    I’ll take my definition of anti-gay bigot from actual queer activists, not you. Unlike you, they actually have credentials and an understanding of the issues.

    If being called anti-gay bigots upsets your Catholic anti-same-sex-marriage friends, all I can say, with as much irony as I can muster, is that they’re a bunch of total sissies who think that their version of a religious ritual needs to be rammed down everyone’s throat as The Only One True Way.

    I’ll call that anti-gay bigotry because that’s what it is. If they contented themselves to deciding what went on on their church, I wouldn’t care one bit. It’s trying to regulate how the law sees things outside of the church that I call bigotry. Because it is. They may use polite language, and be otherwise decent people but it’s still bigotry, and they’re still bigots.

    And the groups who’re the target of that bigotry know what it looks like. Not you.

  94. Yeah yeah, we all know, Barack is the chosen one, walks on water, is going to bring us ALL together and we’ll sing Kum Ba Yah, have the UN fix all the international problems, and we’ll be friends with everyone in the world.

  95. Am I the only one who finds it hard to take any posts about Jesus seriously from someone who posts as ‘Judas’?

    Who is historical Jesus? Is there an apocryphal Jesus, too?

    Also, how is a guy who rounds up a dozen dudes and then travels around, meeting the common folk and organizing them and establishing a ministry in which he meets with prominent community leaders and businessman and prompts them sometimes radical social change against an entrenched system while at the same time establishing medical, educational and legal support systems for the poor and disenfranchised in any way NOT a community organizer?

  96. Barack’s not the chosen one, but if the Republican’s keep up their pretty poor performance thus far, he will be the elected one.

    Seriously, Sarah Palin? If Palin is such a big threat, why the press moratorium on interviews? What about her recent secessionist ties? What about her “Alaska First” policy? None of this is ancient history, but somehow the Republicans keep neglecting to mention it.

  97. Community Activist used to be a noble position. Now it’s just a way for the people who ran for city council and lost to keep their names in the paper between elections. I look at the community activists in my community and they break out into two groups: the ones who are actually doing good: building parks, running neighborhood watches, running basketball programs after school. And then there’s the high-level ones that talk about doing good: the “Anti crime” and “anti guns” and “anti drugs” ones that get all the news time and don’t really appear to have actual community impact.

    Al Capone was a community activist. In Chicago. Just sayin.

  98. Jesus Christ consistently choose being good over being Right.

    We find it much more satisfying to be Right – and the Righteous are willing to commit just about any evil to prove it. Most all wars are fought between Righteous. (I believe that GWB is having us fight in Iraq – not for the oil – but because of his Righteous hatred of Sadaam).

    Jesus also said “Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me”.

    The Religious Right should not be in bed with Big Business. But usually conservativeness isn’t about religion at all.

    Power corrupts – and the people in Washington work for their buddies, and wealthy people work for their buddies, and everybody thinks their kind is the natural kind for everybody. That’s why the Republicans think Clinton supporters would go to a Barbie type Beauty Queen.

  99. i just came here to say “Jesus was a community organizer. Pontius Pilate was a governor.” is so going on a t-shirt.

  100. I’m getting severe cognitive dissonance here contrasting Palin’s socio-political outlook with her, well…babelicious qualities ;) As comedian Jimmy Kimmel has already said,

    “She’s not bad looking. She looks like one of those women in the Van Halen videos who takes off her glasses, shakes out her hair, and then all of a sudden, she’s in high heels and a bikini. All of a sudden, I’m FOR drilling in Alaska.”

    Yeah, mmmmm…”drilling” in Alaska ;) As long as she didn’t start talking. Please God, no.

  101. I don’t mind community organizers. I mind community organizers who sole purpose in organizing communities is to demand free and unearned taxpayer money through subsidies and transfer payments. (TANSTAAFL!)

  102. So, you mean like Dick Cheney, and his sweetheart deals for Enron and Halliburton?

    There is such a thing as a free lunch. if you’re a major corporation with ties to the Bush White House.

  103. David H- if by some chance you and I are on the same side, I’m ashamed of that fact.

    Seriously. Grow the hell up. Sexism isn’t funny any more than racism is.

  104. @ Josh:

    Yeah, pretty much like Cheney. Strip away all the “OMG EEEEEVIL CORPORATIONS” rhetoric (corporations are just another kind of organized community anyway) and you’ll find it’s all rent-seeking – extracting unearned wealth through manipulating the organs of government.

    But even then, the lunches aren’t free. They’re just paid for on an annual basis, every April 15th.

  105. “What about her recent secessionist ties? ”

    Follow the link:

    Note the correction at the bottom of the article.

  106. Josh Jasperon:

    I’ll take my definition of anti-gay bigot from actual queer activists, not you.

    And I’ll take the words of the people who oppose gay marriage as to why, over the claims of people who have a political, and usually, financial interesting in making you agree with them.

    If you’re not willing to question

  107. Josh Jasperon:

    I’ll take my definition of anti-gay bigot from actual queer activists, not you.

    And I’ll take the words of the people who oppose gay marriage as to why, over the claims of people who have a political, and usually, financial interesting in making you agree with them.

    If you’re not willing to question your sources, then you’re a stooge.

  108. David Neal @ 127,
    When you have the shirts, please let me know where I can get one. I know several churches full of people who will buy one.

    One has a group that has “Christian Left” tee shirts, with a rainbow cross on the left side. They wear them while doing community service.

  109. ::rolls eyes::

    Oh noes! Iz offended da humorless libruhls! Well, me and Jimmy Kimmel…

    (if it’s any consolation, I’m also frequently embarrassed at some of the people who’re on my side politically – the “everything is so fsck-ing serious” types being some of the worst :P )

  110. Palin did nail Obama on his weak spot with that community organizer crack, yet another Jesus analogy.

  111. You know, this thread is beginning to drift into stereotypical partisan sniping mode, and I believe we as a group are better than that. So if you don’t mind, try to a behave a little better toward each other and keep your arguments grounded in issues. Otherwise I’ll have to get annoyed.

  112. “Terry”, if you’re going to switch identities because Scalzi booted you last time you crapped all over a thread, you’re going to have to resist outing yourself. Surely you can come up with a more clever retort than ‘mythagoon’. Again.

    If marriage is a sacrament, then why is it OK for the government to violate that sacrament sometimes, but not other times? I’m not trying to single out Catholics here, so I’ll pick on my own faith. If I, as a Jew, have no problem with the government allowing interfaith marriages, permitting Jewish women to file for divorce from their husbands, or any other marriage practice that is the opposite of what Jewish law says, then I reveal myself as a complete assjack if I suddenly decide that one particular violation–civil same-sex marriage–is against the tenets of my faith and therefore ought to be forbidden.

    As for bigotry, not everybody who’s an anti-gay bigot is going to say they hate queers; not everybody is going to attribute their discomfort or opposition to bigotry. Think of how much opposition there was to interracial marriage forty years ago. Think of how many people would insist they were not bigots, but they were “worried about the children” or “not personally against it, but it’s a bad idea”.

  113. To mythago’s excellent response, I can only add: It’s religion for Christssake (heh). It’s easy to get all het up about something when you think you have a hotline to God – reason has little to do with it.

    So Woo Hoo! to the Founding Fathers for separation of Church & State, even tho’ it’s derided & ignored by modern “Christian Conservatives.”

    (and I say this as a regular, church-going member of a mainline denomination here in the U.S.)

  114. Community Activist used to be a noble position. Now it’s just a way for the people who ran for city council and lost to keep their names in the paper between elections.

    Yep, I remember the good old days when if you wanted to be a community activist, you had to hike five miles uphill in the snow to get to your community! And we had to make our activism ourself by chipping it out of flint with our bare hands! You kids today don’t know the meaning of “community activist”, so get off my lawn!

    One would think that many self-styled conservatives would approve of ‘community activists’, who are working for nongoverment entities and therefore don’t rely on taxpayer funding for their salaries.

  115. Mythago @ 144, that would be reality based thinking. They might also have considered that many of the people in their base could be described as such. The number of 180’s conservative commentators have done in the past week boggles the mind. They must have burned their corpus callosums and salted the fissure.

  116. mythagoon:
    “Terry”, if you’re going to switch identities because Scalzi booted you last time you crapped all over a thread, you’re going to have to resist outing yourself. Surely you can come up with a more clever retort than ‘mythagoon’. Again.

    If you have any evidence that John has ever booted me for any reason, please feel free to show it. Otherwise, an apology would be appropriate, if you’re honest enough to do so. Either way, you’re useless.

  117. Terry:

    In fact, I’ve not booted you before. That said, please behave yourself better in dealing with others, because I’m willing to do it for the first time if you don’t. Start by not acting like a third grader (i.e., by not making fun of people’s names). Thanks.

  118. Heh. Your temper hasn’t improved either.

    PrivateIron, I’m sure they’ve considered it, but it’s a dogwhistle. For “community activist” read “one of those uppity Al Sharpton type Negros.”

  119. Like I said in my post, there are many community activists who do great things, and some who are just there to get publicity between paid gigs. Looking at the position of what Obama’s community activism was probably in the latter category unfortunately.

    I’m really looking forward to the VP debates though. “Well, if Biden’s mean to her, he looks like a douche, and if he loses then he lost to a girl”. It’s like trying, as a white male, to vote in the democratic primary. “So, am I a racist or a sexist today?”

  120. John, I do not recall intentionally made fun of anyone’s name. If it looked like I did, please point it out to me so that I can avoid accidentally doing so in the future.

    Also, I find it distasteful that someone untruthfully claimed I had been banned. Thank for clarifying that.

    And there’s been plenty of childish behavior in this mess from nearly everyone. I’ve now been singled out. I assure you that things been been said to and about me that I find every bit as offensive as anything I’ve said, but I didn’t whine that someone should be banned over it.

    Please don’t let Whatever turn in to a urine stained sandbox for the children. You’re better than that, even if very few of the rest of us are.

  121. Terry Austin:

    “John, I do not recall intentionally made fun of anyone’s name.”

    Come now, Terry. Please refer to your post previous to your last. Start with the first word.

    You were singled out because you were acting foolishly and and you were the most recent to do so, and you did so after I made a general call for people to behave themselves. Try not to act surprised about it.

    That said, I have every faith you will act with intelligence and decorum moving forward, because you’re just awesome like that. Right?

  122. John Scalzi
    Terry Austin:

    “John, I do not recall intentionally made fun of anyone’s name.”

    Come now, Terry. Please refer to your post previous to your last. Start with the first word.

    That was untinentional. Copy a post, and past it in to the reply box, and Windows manages to delete the white space between the name and the “on” immediately after it. I didn’t notice. My apolgoies to mythago, even while I chuckle at the irony of it.

    You were singled out because you were acting foolishly and and you were the most recent to do so, and you did so after I made a general call for people to behave themselves. Try not to act surprised about it.

    The very next post after your plea was mythago accusing me of nymshifting to avoid a ban. An accusation you a) knew for certain to be untrue, and b) did not correct. I will grant you that it was posted very shortly after yours post, but it is still an ugly, and untrue accusation that you did not correct until I challenged it.

    So, please, try not to act surprised that I felt a little singled out, since moderators take sides on web forums isn’t exactly uncommon.

    That said, I have every faith you will act with intelligence and decorum moving forward, because you’re just awesome like that. Right?

    Indeed, I am, as are you for correcting the untrue accusation (which I’m still not quite sure where it came from).

  123. Terry Austin:

    “An accusation you a) knew for certain to be untrue, and b) did not correct.”

    I knew no such thing and I will thank you not to pretend you have access to my brain, there, Terry. Quite obviously I assumed you were being a bit of an ass, which is why I told you stop. If you say it was a mistake, well, then, fine, because it means it won’t happen again. Everyone’s happy.

  124. John:
    Terry Austin:

    “An accusation you a) knew for certain to be untrue, and b) did not correct.”

    I knew no such thing and I will thank you not to pretend you have access to my brain, there, Terry.

    You don’t ban folks much, if at all. I jumped to the apparently unfounded conclusion that you would remember those you have. My apologies.

    (Also, since I’m still posting under the same name, it’s pretty obviously untrue, anyway. But perhaps not as obviously as I thought.)

    Quite obviously I assumed you were being a bit of an ass, which is why I told you stop. If you say it was a mistake, well, then, fine, because it means it won’t happen again. Everyone’s happy.

    I won’t guarantee it won’t happen again, as I am quite prone to being an idiot on a regular basis. And it can’t happen again intentionally until it has happened intentionally.

  125. I don’t mind people occasionally being an idiot; I do it from time to time myself. I just don’t them to make a habit of it, is all.

    Anyway, that’s settled. Moving on.

  126. Terry, I think it’s called making fun of people’s names when, @146, you’re calling mythago “mythagoon.”

    Maybe you see it differently?

  127. Paolo: Perhaps you should read the rest of the comments, and reconsider if you really wanted to say that.

  128. Actually, Jesus very likely looked like a Hebrew (otherwise known as a Jew), since that is what ethnicity he was.

  129. I think it’s cool that recently, a Republican State Senator told me that as a social worker, working for a non-profit, I was doing a better job than the government could do in helping the homeless. So put that in your pipe Palin, and smoke it!

  130. Terry Austin – If marriage is a religious institution, why don’t they try to pass an amendment stating atheists can’t get married?

    If marriage is merely to procreate, why don’t they try to stop old people from getting married?

    These are the main objections, other than moral, that people have to gay marriage. Since they are completely bogus, the only one left is moral.

    If one thinks it is moral to keep one group from doing something, in this case get married, that they themselves can do, simply because of skin color or sexual orientation, that is called bigotry. If it involves color, it is racism. If it involves age, it is ageism. If it involves the fact that they are gay, it is homophobia or anti-gay bigotry.

    It really is no more complex than that.

    In other words, you are wrong that people against gay marriage are not anti-gay bigots. They are, and if you oppose gay marriage, so are you.

  131. Late to the party (as usual), but I thought The Great Scalzi’s original post was:

    a. a great turn of phrase;
    b. a wee bit off base theologically;
    c. certainly wrong historically; and
    d. failed to make a point.

    Seriously, you’re a great writer who can mix much better metaphors than that. Besides, if Palin continues her attacks on Obama, all we’re really seeing is a VP candidate acting in a the traditional role pre-election. Just because she’s been effective doesn’t mean she ought to be belittled.

    Nor should Obama be belittled for his service as a “community organizer” as the Republicans have done. Getting folks to vote is crucial (just one of his roles during that time). We live in a country where fewer than 30% of voters decide what 100% of the country does, and that’s just wrong. Obama has served his community, his state, and his country well. I think that’s what John McCain was saying in his acceptance speech. The real discussion should be about the quality and length of that service, and the quality of his ideas and ideals in comparison to his opponent. I just wish we could focus on that rationally instead of barking at each other.

  132. StevieB @ 167
    The origional phrase wasn’t by John, was funny and was on point.

    On “Getting folks to vote is crucial” :

    The republican party is on record as saying ‘the fewer votes cast, the better their chances of winning’. Having had in the recent past republican operatives go to jail for vote caging and signing worthless pledges not to do it again, we have historicly high levels of caging and pre-election chicanery this time around already.

    It takes two sides in agreement to have peaceful and fair elections, it only takes one side to resort to election fraud. We do not currently have rule of law, we have rule by crooks instead.

  133. @168 Anon. – Hey, I like our host’s view (as I understand it): political parties have become evil institutions. Sorry in advance if I misunderstand or misquote you there John! The highest good for the NATION is for citizens to learn to BE citizens, get educated on issues, and vote their conscience. I don’t really give a damn about which party has dominance in the election cycle. And if we’re going to throw rocks about chicanery and election fraud, let’s at least be honest enough to agree that it’s institutional on both sides of the aisle and arguably in all the third-parties that attempt to elect candidates every year.

    If you don’t believe we have the rule of law, I suggest you spend some time abroad, especially in places where the governments really DON’T have the rule of law. Hyperbole and exaggeration make great copy, but seriously, that’s out in center field (to avoid unfortunate political association).