An Incomplete Guide to Not Creeping

The last couple of months have been a really interesting time for geekdom, as its had its face rubbed in the fact that there are a lot of creepy assbags among its number, and that geekdom is not always the most welcoming of places for women. Along that line, this e-mail from a con-going guy popped into my queue a few days ago:

Any tips on how not to be a creeper? I try not to be, but I don’t know that I’m the best judge of that.

Let’s define our terms here. Let’s say that for this particular conversation, a “creeper” is someone whose behavior towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe. A creeper may be of any gender and may creep on any gender, but let’s acknowledge that a whole lot of the time it’s guys creeping on women. Creeping can happen any place and in any community or grouping of people, but in geekdom we see a lot of it at conventions and other large gatherings.

Let me also note that the reason I stress this is an incomplete guide is because a) there’s no way to cover every contingency and b) I’m writing this from the point of view of someone who doesn’t get creeped on very much (it almost never happens to me) and when it does happen I am usually in a position, by way of my gender, age, personal temperament and contextual notability, to do something about it. Other people who are creeped on — particularly women — aren’t necessarily in the same position. So the advice I give you here is informed by my point of view, not theirs, and as such is almost certainly incomplete (but hopefully not wrong). This is just a start, in other words, and others will have different and probably better perspectives on the subject.

That said, these are the rules that I use when I meet people, particularly women, for the first time and/or to whom I find myself attracted in one way or another. Because, yeah, I do meet a lot of people and/or I do find many of the people I know in a casual way to be attractive in one way or another. The very last thing I want is for them to feel that I am a creepy assbag. These are the things I do to avoid coming across as one.

Bear in mind that following these recommendations will not make you a good guy. They will just hopefully make you be not so much of a creeper. These are preventative measures, in other words, and should be viewed as such.

Fair enough? Okay, then. Let’s start with some biggies.

1. Acknowledge that you are responsible for your own actions. You are (probably) a fully-functioning adult. You probably are able to do all sorts of things on your own — things which require the use of personal judgement. Among those things: How you relate to, and interact with, other human beings, including those who you have some interest in or desire for. Now, it’s possible you may also be socially awkward, or have trouble reading other people’s emotions or intentions, or whatever. This is your own problem to solve, not anyone else’s. It is not an excuse or justification to creep on other people. If you or other people use it that way, you’ve failed basic human decency.

2. Acknowledge that you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you. Which is to say that you may be trying your hardest to be interesting and engaging and fun to be around — and still come off as a creeper to someone else. Yes, that sucks for you. But you know what? It sucks for them even harder, because you’re creeping them out and making them profoundly unhappy and uncomfortable. It may not seem fair that “creep” is their assessment of you, but: Surprise! It doesn’t matter, and if you try to argue with them (or anyone else) that you’re in fact not being a creep and the problem is with them not you, then you go from “creep” to “complete assbag.” Sometimes people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you. It’s just the way it is.

3. Acknowledge that no one’s required to inform you that you’re creeping (or help you to not be a creeper). It’s nice when people let you know when you’re going wrong and how. But you know what? That’s not their job. It’s especially not their job at a convention or some other social gathering, where the reason they are there is to hang out with friends and have fun, and not to give some dude an intensive course in how not to make other people intensely uncomfortable with his presence. If you are creeping on other people, they have a perfect right to ignore you, avoid you and shut you out — and not tell you why. Again: you are (probably) a fully-functioning adult. This is something you need to be able to handle on your own.

Shorter version of above: It’s on you not to be a creeper and to be aware of how other people respond to you.

Also extremely important:

4. Acknowledge that other people do not exist just for your amusement/interest/desire/use. Yes, I know. You know that. But oddly enough, there’s a difference between knowing it, and actually believing it — or understanding what it means in a larger social context. People go to conventions and social gatherings to meet other people, but not necessarily (or even remotely likely) for the purpose of meeting you. The woman who is wearing a steampunky corset to a convention is almost certainly wearing it in part to enjoy being seen in it and to have people enjoy seeing her in it — but she’s also almost certainly not wearing it for you. You are not the person she has been waiting for, the reason she’s there, or the purpose for her attendance. When you act like you are, or that she has (or should have) nothing else to do than be the object of your amusement/interest/desire/use, the likelihood that you will come across a complete creeper rises exponentially. It’s not an insult for someone else not to want to play that role for you. It’s not what they’re there for.

So those are some overarching things to incorporate into your thinking. Here are some practical things.

5. Don’t touch. Seriously, man. You’re not eight, with the need to run your fingers over everything, nor do you lack voluntary control of your muscles. Keep your hands, arms, legs and everything else to yourself. This is not actually difficult. Here’s an idea: That person you want to touch? Put them in charge of the whole touch experience. That is, let them initiate any physical contact and let them set the pace of that contact when or if they do — and accept that that there’s a very excellent chance no touch is forthcoming. Do that when you meet them for the first time. Do that after you’ve met them 25 times. Do it just as a general rule. Also, friendly tip: If you do touch someone and they say “don’t touch me,” or otherwise make it clear that touching was not something you should have done, the correct response is: “I apologize. I am sorry I made you uncomfortable.” Then back the hell off, possibly to the next state over.

6. Give them space. Hey: Hold your arm straight out in front of your body. Where your fingertips are? That’s a nice minimum distance for someone you’re meeting or don’t know particularly well (it’s also not a bad distance for people you do know). Getting inside that space generally makes people uncomfortable, and why make people uncomfortable? That’s creepy. Also creepy: Sneaking up behind people and getting in close to them, or otherwise getting into their personal space without them being aware of it. If you’re in a crowded room and you need to scrunch in, back up when the option becomes available; don’t take it as an opportunity to linger inside that personal zone. Speaking of which:

7. Don’t box people in. Trapping people in a corner or making it difficult for them to leave without you having the option to block them makes you an assbag. Here’s a hint: If you are actually interesting to other people, you don’t need to box them into a corner.

8. That amusing sexual innuendo? So not amusing. If you can’t make a conversation without trying to shoehorn suggestive or sexually-related topics into the mix, then you know what? You can’t make conversation. Consider also the possibility the playing the sexual innuendo card early and often signals to others in big flashing neon letters that you’re likely a tiresome person who brings nothing else to table. This is another time where an excellent strategy is to let the other person be in charge of bringing sexual innuendo to the conversational table, and managing the frequency of its appearance therein.

9. Someone wants to leave? Don’t go with them. Which is to say, if they bow out of a conversation with you, say goodbye and let them go. If they leave the room, don’t take that as your cue to follow them from a distance and show up wherever it is they are as if it just happens you are showing up in the same place. Related to this, if you spend any amount of time positioning yourself to be where that person you are interested in will be, or will walk by, for the purpose of “just happening” to be there when they are, you’re probably being creepy as hell. Likewise, if you attach yourself to a group just to be near that person. Dude, it’s obvious, and it’s squicky.

10. Someone doesn’t want you around? Go away. Here are some subtle hints: When you come by they don’t make eye contact with you. When they are in a group the group contracts or turns away from you. If you interject in the conversation people avoid following up on what you’ve said. One of the friends of the person you are interested in interposes themselves between you and that person. And so on. When stuff like that happens, guess what? You’re not wanted. When that happens, here’s what you do: Go away. Grumble to yourself (and only to yourself) all you like about their discourteousness or whatever. Do it away from them. Remember that you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you. Remember that they’re not obliged to inform you about why they don’t want you around. Although, for God’s sake, if they do tell you they don’t want you around, listen to them.

Again: Not a complete instruction set on how not to be a creeper. But a reasonable start, I think.

Update, 8/10: A tangential personal note.

680 Comments on “An Incomplete Guide to Not Creeping”

  1. Damn it. I should have put a trigger warning on that entry because there are some descriptions of harassment that might be triggering to others. Apologies.

  2. As a woman who has been creeped on (and has ceased going to certain otherwise enjoyable, regular social functions because I knew the creeper would be there), I applaud you, Mr. Scalzi. That is not only an excellent start to a How Not To Be A Creeper list, but also an excellent list, period. Especially #5. Sheesh.

  3. Regarding the personal space issue in #5, be aware that it varies among cultures. When I worked on student exchange programs with students from the former Soviet Union in the 90s, we always incorporated a discussion of personal space into orientations as, very generally speaking, acceptable “interpersonal distance” is/was closer in those students’ home cultures.

  4. Thank you. I’m still having to make a conscious effort to remember to think of those things. Thanks for writing this piece, it’s good to see this from a man’s perspective as well.

  5. Dave S:

    It’s reasonably safe to assume the large majority of people who are reading this have similar personal space boundaries, as 95% of my readers are in North America, Australia/NZ and Britain,

  6. An excellent primer for those who care to better their human interactivity! As a woman who has experienced creeping I’ve sometimes attempted to diffuse the situation with the unhelpful old saw, “I’m sorry. It’s me, not you.” After several (thousand) intermediate epiphanies I had a fully blown affirmation assert itself: “It is USELESS to seek validation from the perpetrator of the violation.” Relating this back to your suggestions, just because a says s/he’s sorry it doesn’t mean you’re off the hook. S/he is being a) polite b) feeling unhappy at having to deal with the whole mess c) feeling unhappy at causing even an assbag distress d) other e) all of the above.

    Will check out Captain Awkward link after this sentence. :)

  7. I’m thinking of printing this off and handing out to people before I interact with them at cons. Especially #4, #8, and #9. Especially especially #5. Yeah, I know you think laying your hand on my shoulder isn’t creepy or weird. Guess what? It still is. Even when I’ve known you for my entire life (acutally, more so then, because one of the few things worse than being creeped on by a guy – being creeped on by a guy who you consider a father-figure).

  8. This is clear and useful, and obviously necessary. But it’s also sad. #10 especially reminds me of how often being at a con feels like being in a highschool lunchroom.

  9. I think this would be a good addition to every Con program: Basic Rules on How to Act Toward Your Fellow Con Attendees.

    And I think most, if not all, of your suggestions work both ways. I have seen ladies be creepy to guys who were attractive and not socially awkward where the whole situation turned into a mess.

  10. Only thing I would add to that awesome post, John, is that once you’ve violated someone’s creepmeter, you’ve lost the right to be emotionally fulfilled by having your apology acknowledge or accepted. Apologizing should be simple (as in your point 5) and honest, but you should be prepared to have lost the chance to make it. Further attempts to apologize are “nice to have”, not mandatory, and trying to create them is just extending the creeperism.

  11. one thing to remember: never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity/incompetence/bad social skiils.

    ie: some guys may be nice but totally clueless. I see that the above guide is to help people gain more clue, but what if the person doesn’t know they need more?

    granted; once a person is told explicity to go away, and then they do not, that is a real problem. but there are a lot of people in geekdom with poor social skills.

  12. I wonder behavioral litmus test might be to ask “Is this something you would do or say to your mother? If not, you shouldn’t do it to a stranger or an acquaintance.” Clearly that won’t cover personal space issues if one comes from a touchy-feely family, but it might make people stop and think, maybe? Or am I being naïve and simplistic, and assuming that these creepers are able to be appropriate with their moms?

  13. On #5: my mother told me the correct response is to say “excuse me”, or “pardon me,” or “sorry.” In a pinch, “oops” may have to serve.

    I can’t imagine being on an embassy ship en route to an interstellar diplomatic conference and, having mistakenly touched the untouchable Forshan attaché, saying “I am sorry (that) I made you uncomfortable.” People don’t say this; we shouldn’t expect them to.

    Broadly speaking, a conference can’t hope to make everyone comfortable all the time. When we’re at a conference we’re not at home, we’re not comfortable, were not safe. We’re in a new and temporary space to which we’ve journeyed, often at considerable expense, in order to meet with famous and important people and to discuss things that matter to us all. http://www.markbernstein.org/Aug12/OnConferences.html

  14. Know what else is creepy? When someone you don’t even know orders you, in front of a group, to “Smile!” I used to wonder why I got this a lot, when I wasn’t looking or acting particularly frowny, and then I realized it’s a game that certain creepy, aggressive guys play with women who are quiet. It’s a total dominance play, meant to put you on the spot, and meant to make them feel powerful in front of whoever they’re trying to feel powerful in front of. Creeps.

  15. I shouldn’t have to put this, but I’m a woman (at least, that’s how people read me) who sometimes gets bothered by creepers, and I’d like to say that I’d go so far as to say that most creepers probably AREN’T fully functioning adults, but rather are partially or mostly functioning folks w/ mental disabilities/mental illnesses/neuro non-typical of some sort who genuinely can’t tell when they’re being creepy. Perhaps we shouldn’t be so quick to judge & attribute to malice or douchebaggery what may well be something the person struggles with. Maybe it’s partially our place to try to be patient (but always firm about our needs) with people with mental issues… we’d be patient with someone with different mental issues or someone with a physical issue or with a developmental issue. That being said, if you do have social issues (I know I do… I try very hard not to be a creeper meself) then it IS good to be aware of them & to try to work on them. (However, if you also have anxiety issues, this can make you go from blissfully unaware to someone who has a fear of social situations because they’re terrified that everything they do will be wrong somehow.) So work needs to be done on both sides, perhaps, both the creepers need to work on their behavior & we need to work on the way we respond to creepers so that we treat them with basic human respect (even though they aren’t giving it to us… be the better person) but also make our needs clear.

    That’s a great practical list. I’d also put in #10 that if someone’s making short, pat, gruff or abrupt 1 word or sentence answers, especially if they’re not making a hell of a lot of eye contact with you and ESPECIALLY especially if they were previously chatting with you normally and making a decent amount of eye contact, there’s a good chance they want you gone. I use this one all the time and you’d be surprised how many folks that I’m not interested in talking to do NOT pick up on it.

  16. NPD (Narcissistic personality disorder) may be the root cause, in some instances, of what you describe as creepy behavior. Narcissists tend to lack empathy, have low self esteem, and are dismissive of the abilities of other people; and those are just some of the less obnoxious traits.

  17. “Creep” is the symantic female equivalent of calling someone a “slut”.

    [Additional massively derailing nonsense deleted — Ian, please see my comment below. Other folks, don’t bother responding to this — JS]

  18. Only thing I would add to that awesome post, John, is that once you’ve violated someone’s creepmeter, you’ve lost the right to be emotionally fulfilled by having your apology acknowledge or accepted. Apologizing should be simple (as in your point 5) and honest, but you should be prepared to have lost the chance to make it. Further attempts to apologize are “nice to have”, not mandatory, and trying to create them is just extending the creeperism.

    YES to all of this! Apologies should be about the person to whom the apology is directed toward, not the person who wishes to make the apology. If someone does not wish to hear your apology or does not respond the way that you wish them to, it is not their responsibility to make you feel better by giving you the response you want. No one is under any obligation to receive or accept an apology attempt, even when it’s a sincere one, and in those cases, the best apology you can make is by respecting the wishes of the person you have wronged and just going away.

  19. Who doesn’t benefit from getting more clue?

    I think I you believe you never performed a social error, ever misread body language, or would never do it again – well there’s the problem.

    I think knowing what impairs your ability to be non creepy is important. If alcohol brings out your creepy – don’t drink.

    I worry I’ve been creepy on occasion because esp after panels I turn into a vulnerable limpet who feels a need to attach to whoever seems friendliest and nicest. I’m sure that’s generally fine, but there have been times when I’ve thought afterwards ‘was that creepy?’ did i know that person well enough to trail after them like a los puppy? Enough of a worry and a panel debriefing need for me that I think I’ll try to formally organize spending time with people immediately after panels. Mitigating creeper possibilities and giving my brain the support it needs.

  20. Mark Bernstein:

    “On #5: my mother told me the correct response is to say ‘excuse me’, or ‘pardon me,’ or ‘sorry.’ In a pinch, ‘oops’ may have to serve.”

    I find it doubtful that’s what your mother told you to say when you are intentionally going out of your way to touch someone, as it is this sort of touch that is being described here, as I think is sufficiently obvious in the context of the entry. And if that is what your mother told you to say when you’re touching someone intentionally and they tell you not to touch them further, then your mother is wrong.

    Ian Ironwood:

    “‘Creep’ is the symantic female equivalent of calling someone a ‘slut’.”

    It most certainly is not, and I made it sufficiently clear that anyone of any gender can be a creeper. You are either positing a definition which has no relation to reality, or intentionally trying to derail the conversation, or both.

  21. I want to wallpaper my daughter’s high school with this article and for good measure, put one on the windshield of every car in the parking lot.

  22. When it comes to personal space, the other factor to consider is that it’s the creepee’s personal space that’s important, not the creeper’s – and so it’s better to err on the side of distance, so even though some cultures have shorter personal distances, basing it on a culture that allows more personal space makes more sense. After all, a person from a culture with a smaller personal space will probably not be bothered as much that strangers are too far away than someone from another culture will be if they are too close.

  23. Judy – my sentiments exactly. Seems like a lot of these activities could be someone thinking they are attempting flirtation. If so, they are failing, badly.

  24. I disagree somewhat with point #3. If someone’s bothering me, and I say “Please stop, you’re making me uncomfortable,” and they ask “Why?” it might be useful to explain. It’s possible they’re asking me that question because they’re just that much of a douchebag that they get off on listening me recount the reasons. But I think it’s just as likely that they really are clueless but wanting to learn from their mistake. Okay, so maybe I’m not “obligated” to explain the reason(s) for my discomfort. But if a guy (or girl, for that matter) is always shunned in social situations for some aspect of his (or her) behavior, yet nobody ever explains to him *why* his behavior is unacceptable, how will he learn (assuming he wants to)?

  25. Jill: Actually, I am pretty comfortable attributing all creeper behavior to malice, unless it’s coming from someone I know well enough to have seen them having the same social skills issues in other settings (including, and this is important, with people who are not in their preferred romantic demographic).

    Creepy behavior all comes down to a demonstrated willingness to violate boundaries. I generally assume everyone who demonstrates that willingness is a potential threat and avoid them as much as possible. There’s not a downside to this, as far as I can see: if someone is a threat, and I avoid them, then yay! I have successfully stayed out of danger. If they really are well-intentioned and willing to respect my autonomy, and just so socially clueless that they give the exact opposite impression, and I mis-categorize them as a threat and avoid them, then I’ve… successfully avoided spending time with people who make me feel uncomfortable.

    …those both look like win conditions to me. I’m really entirely okay with restricting my social interactions to people who don’t make me feel nervous and threatened.

  26. @jill:

    malice intended or not, I don’t think the victim of creeping should ever need to worry about whether or not the creeper is “creepy” or “clueless”. If they’re clueless it will hopefully give them a clue. If they’re creepy, going easy on them gives them the very validation that makes them dangerous.

  27. “Creep” is the symantic female equivalent of calling someone a “slut”. If a woman doesn’t like a man’s sexual presentation, he’s a “creep”. If a man doesn’t like a woman’s sexual presentation, she’s a “slut”.

    Nope. I have had women be creepy to me less frequently than men, but I have had women do it to me (and I am a woman). Creepy behavior is creepy behavior no matter who is doing it, as John said at the beginning of the article. When I say someone or something is “creeping me out”, I mean just exactly that — their behavior toward me (or, in one instance, toward a friend of mine) is sending that crawling sensation along my nerves. Is making me feel threatened. They could be the hottest person on the face of the earth, the person who hits all of my physical attraction buttons, and if their behavior is the sort of creepy John is speaking out against in this post, I won’t want anything to do with them.

    And it doesn’t have anything to do with social awkwardness or inexperience/difficulty with reading social cues — there have been several excellent posts about this (I think Jim Hines had one, but I can’t get to my masterpost list from work). My friend’s autistic four-year-old daughter knew enough to ask me if she could hug me the first time we met.

  28. Mr. Scalzi, may I quote you as follows in a chapter that I drafted today?
    Batshit Crazy
    by
    Jonathan Vos Post
    Incomplete Draft jjj of 9 August 2012, 350 pp., 94,700 words, adds 650 word Ch. 57 “FIAWOL”

    57.0 FIAWOL

    “You said that FIAWOL was a science fiction fan acronym for ‘Fandom Is A Way of Life.’ Isn’t it part of Braggart’s problem that he’s too loony to fit into fandom?”
    “Fandom makes great claims of tolerance and inclusivity, but it does have its own ways of dealing with creeps. As John Scalzi said in his ‘Whatever’ blog on 9 August 2012:
    ‘The last couple of months have been a really interesting time for geekdom, as its had its face rubbed in the fact that there are a lot of creepy assbags among its number, and that geekdom is not always the most welcoming of places for women. Along that line, this e-mail from a con-going guy popped into my queue a few days ago:
    “Any tips on how not to be a creeper? I try not to be, but I don’t know that I’m the best judge of that.”
    ‘Let’s define our terms here. Let’s say that for this particular conversation, a “creeper” is someone whose behavior towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe. A creeper may be of any gender and may creep on any gender, but let’s acknowledge that a whole lot of the time it’s guys creeping on women. Creeping can happen any place and in any community or grouping of people, but in geekdom we see a lot of it at conventions and other large gatherings.’”
    “However, as I see it, me, not SFWA President Scalzi, you are correct that Braggart would not fit in geeky fandom, because of his lack of paracosm. He just doesn’t ‘get’ science fiction, Fantasy, or Horror literature, film, or television. How can the lack of cognitive ability to process ‘escapist literature’ actually make him worse at coping with mundane reality? In a nutshell, you become what you read.”
    “In the sense of ‘you are what you eat” combined with Francis Bacon’s epigram: ‘Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested’?”
    “Pretty much, doctor. Psychologists Geoff Kaufman and Lisa Libby, at Ohio State University, assigned 78 heterosexual males to read one of a trio of fictional stories, of which two had a homosexual protagonist, and one a heterosexual protagonist. In test instrument later administered, the readers reported no difficulties in identifying with the ‘straight’ character. Interestingly, their ability to identify with the ‘gay’ protagonist depended up[on when that character’s sexual identity was disclosed. For example, if the character was introduced in the opening paragraph as gay, they did not as strongly connect with that character as when the orientation was revealed near the story’s end. Even more importantly, those heterosexual males who showed the strongest engagement with the gay character used fewer stereotypes when describing the character to the researchers. Further, those heterosexual males who connected with the fictive gay character self-reported consistently more positive attitudes towards homosexuality as such. ‘Readers can emerge from a reading experience seeing the world, other people, and themselves quite differently,’ concluded Dr. Kaufman. So prose has power. Critical thinking can be influenced. One hopes that such power is harnessed for the good of humankind.”
    “So you feel that Braggart is doomed, there in Ho Chi Minh City, to be spiteful to you by email, because he resents your being not only a fan, but an actual published author?”
    “Yes, doctor. You’d be shocked by what some fans have done to each other, and to authors of great repute.”
    “Not really,” my shrink said, quoting Terence. “Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.” Which is to say: ‘I am a human being, I consider nothing that is human alien to me.’”
    “Alien is,” I said, before going back onto the streets of Bangkok, “as alien does.”

  29. Ian –

    Calling a woman a “slut” and calling a man “creep” are not equivalent terms.

    The former is meant to shame a woman for embracing and enjoying being sexual, behavior that is not inherently negative. Both men and women share equal capacity for sexual enjoyment and expression and it’s unfair to shame only women for engaging in either in order to control their sexuality.

    By contrast, the latter refers to men engaging in behavior that *is* negative – ignoring nonverbal or verbal cues that a person is uncomfortable or doesn’t wish to engage with you, inappropriate touching, all the things John laid out clearly in his post, and which one should be ashamed of engaging in. Men are not naturally prone to these sort of behaviors* – they are not inherent attributes of men and shaming *anyone* who engages in such behavior is a fair method of social control. The only reason it would be unfair to shame men (or anyone) who engages in creepy behavior would be if that behavior were something they had no control over, and I don’t know about you, but I’m not about to subscribe to the belief that men should get a pass for creepy behavior because they can’t help it, they’re just naturally creeps.

    *Obviously creepy behavior isn’t limited to men only, but the social reactions to and treatment of men who are subjected to creepy behavior by women is disproportionate to the social reactions to and treatment of women who are subjected to creepy behavior by men. In the case of the former, the concerns of men regarding creepy behavior by women is almost always taken more seriously and men are less likely to have their concerns brushed off or suffer as many social consequences if they become victims. Women complaining of creepy behavior by men, however, are more likely to be told they are “overreacting” or “being hysterical,” that they should “just ignore it because he’s harmless.” And if they are so unfortunate as to become victims, are often subjected to a litany of victim-blaming: “Why didn’t you report it sooner?” “You should have been more firm with him and told him to go away.” “You liked the attention before and now you’ve changed your mind.”

    This stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum outside of cultural context, folks.

  30. “Don’t stare, don’t touch, don’t crowd, don’t corner” has worked pretty well for me over the years.

    Later on I figured out a version of #4 above: don’t come at other people with intent that ignores their agency. Don’t have preconceived notions of how you would like an encounter with another person to go, because it assumes they owe you a favorable response. Don’t blame the other person if they don’t follow your ideal script, because it is your fault for dehumanizing people by assigning them a role without their permission or input. Sometimes it doesn’t “go the way you want it to” but why would you really get to decide for someone else how they should react to you?

    You can avoid being a creeper but not having a goal that you are creeping towards. It is OK to have interactions with other people and let them take the lead, let them guide how things go, enjoy the moment and don’t put any pressure on it to be anything else but what it is. In my experience, I’ve found that once I stopped trying to make things happen, to FORCE things to happen, lots of good things started happening. I started feeling more comfortable in social situations, because I took the pressure off of myself. I found that other people were more comfortable around me, because I wasn’t on “high alert” and I wasn’t obviously trying to get things from other people. And NO, it didn’t magically make me a “chick magnet” and it wasn’t a great way to meet and hook up with women. What it did was make it OK for me to not make “hook up with women” my goal in life, and I made a bunch of great friends and I was happier and healthier overall.

  31. John, personal distance varies even within North America. I’ve found it’s smaller in New York than in Michigan, where I grew up. It also varies to some extent by ethnicity and economic class, but those differences are subtler.

    Note that if someone leans close in, especially if they tilt their head to one side, this isn’t necessarily an invitation of any kind; they could just be hard of hearing, like me. If YOU’RE hard of hearing and need to get closer than normal personal distance in order to hear, say “I’m sorry, I’m a little hard of hearing” before leaning in. And that head-tilt is a good distancer to remind them that you’re not looking down their cleavage! (If you are, cut it the fuck out. They’ll know.)

    My only actual (mild) criticism of this writeup is that your rules work for men interacting with women they’re attracted to (and old gay men like me interacting with young men they’re attracted to). But frex two gay men about the same age and so on would stand there waiting for each other to initiate touching, which could (could!) be a bad thing. But you’re nearly always right, even among gay men, in waiting for the other person to initiate touch. (I’m only mentioning it because there were times in my young, cute days when I and someone else kept that tension going for a really long time and when one of us finally initiated touching…well, let’s just say it was like someone pushed the fast-forward button. Come to think of it, that was kind of fun.)

    One other thing: sexual innuendo is also a slightly more acceptable form of humor at a gay party. Note that “at a gay party” != “among gay men at a straight party.”

    I guess a rule of thumb might be: If it’s obvious you’re attracted to them, tone it down. It’s more fun if they have to figure it out and aren’t quite sure anyway. This also makes it easy for them to pretend they don’t notice.

  32. @Ellen, YES! I also second the recommendation of the Captain Awkward link. It does a good job of explicating how excusing creeper behavior on the basis of “but he’s a good guy, really” perpetuates creating safe spaces for creepers and unsafe spaces for women. (Yes, it can go the other way. The vast majority is men creeping on women.)

    It would be great if clueless or skill-less creepers were given a clue by someone. That, however, is not my job, and it’s not my job to further perpetuate my discomfort to make someone else, sometimes someone I don’t even know, comfortable. Why is it more important to make creepers feel comfortable than it is to make women feel comfortable?

  33. It is not incumbent on the victim to educate the victimizer. The victim’s priority is simple: stopping the behavior before it escalates to a higher level of threat. If they’re the better kind of person who can do that *and* toss in some personal education, good on them, but that’s above-and-beyond kind of behavior. To expect that from everyone put into an uncomfortable creeper situation is the equivalent of saying, “You must assume good intentions.”

    No. Assuming good intentions for bad behavior leads to very, very bad places. Far better for socially awkward people to get rebuffed and have their feelings hurt than for someone to get raped or abused. Let the unintentional creepers’ friends do the educating, or let the creepers finally figure out they have shitty friends who are part of the problem and get new ones who actually will reinforce good behavior.

  34. A resounding “Yes!” to #5 and #6. I’ve heard the excuse that certain places (like cons) are crowded and so you pretty much have to touch and/or stand very close to someone. However, most women will notice and appreciate the difference between “I’m using this crush of people as an excuse to get closer to you” and “I’m trying to respect your personal space but I’m being bumped around a lot.” Similarly, if it’s loud and you’re having trouble hearing someone, it’s less threatening to lean your head down rather than moving your whole body closer. John, I’m glad you brought up the issue of sneaking up behind someone – that’s a predator behavior. Try to approach from the front or the side so the person you’re trying to talk to can see you coming. If the only way to approach them is from behind, say hello as you get close to their space so they’re not surprised by a man suddenly looming over them.

  35. Xopher: if you’re attracted to someone, the best course of action is to tell them, in a manner that gives them the option of responding back how they honestly feel, and then honoring their response.

  36. @Xopher: I was around a man who was mildly hard of hearing last weekend at crowded convention parties, and also he was obviously heterosexual, and I was trying to identify what about his body language made him so obviously Not Hitting On Me Just Trying To Hear. And then it hit me that he pulled his hips/lower body away whenever he had to lean his head forward to try to hear. Pro tip for those interested. This probably did not raise his Looking Like A Cool Dude quotient, but he wasn’t there to look like a cool dude, he was there to have a conversation and hear what I had to say as a person. Go figure.

  37. Devin, nothing could be further from the truth. I conclude from your ability to make that statement that you did not grow up gay in America (unless you are from a large city and were born in 1991 or later).

    These days if I’m attracted to someone I do everything I possibly can to conceal the fact. Flirting would mean letting them figure it out if they’re interested; since I can now safely assume that they won’t be, I just conceal it entirely to avoid any chance of making them uncomfortable.

    I have been crept on by women, btw. One woman in the SCA seemed to think it was her prerogative to squeeze the ass of any man she felt like conferring such attentions on. One of the differences between women and men in our society: when I told her not to do it any more, she never did it again. (There was  a bit of attitude given about being a “spoilsport,” but she kept her hands off me.)

  38. In regards to the personal space thing… I once had a friend define that space as their hula hoop. So imagine a person with a hula hoop around their waist (http://goo.gl/bp3QZ) and do not pass that invisible boundary so as not to be “in their hula hoop”.

  39. Mris, yeah, that’s what I mean by “leaning in.” It’s not at ALL the same as just moving closer! There are various gestures to accomplish this, but you point out the crucial fact: the crotch is kept well back. :-)

  40. I like #5. There’s some awkwardness at times when someone sort of does the “…hug?” gesture while standing carefully back so that it’s not too threatening, or working out if it’s polite to offer a hug, or outright asking… but dear god I will take that awkwardness any day over the times when I’ve been hugged by creepy people I didn’t want to be hugged by, and didn’t feel like I could say no without making a scene.

  41. This is why nerd culture sucks. It rakes 10 steps to explain how to treat people decently and takes a tour through 19th century ideas about feminine power. Eventually the destination is some hyperliberal distopia where nobody gets laid. How about just treating women as equals and quit complexing up the whole situation by pretending they need some dude to write up a rulebook to help out clueless losers that haven’t figured out what equality means.

  42. Good list. I would only slightly disagree with the idea that joining a group to meet someone is creepy – sometimes your looking for an “in” and that’s the opportunity that presents itself. However, if you’re asked to leave, then get thee gone

  43. Roland, I bet you also think we should just stop talking about race and treat everyone the same.

    Also, it’s ‘dystopia’. ‘Dis-‘ means “not” or “negating.” ‘Dys-‘ means “bad.” The word ‘dystopia’ comes from a misunderstanding of ‘Utopia’ (“noplace”) as *’eutopia’ (“good place”).

  44. Another thing to keep in mind. If the person you are trying to approach is in a closed circle facing each other, chances are they do not want to engage with you or talk to anyone who isn’t in that circle. Trying to force yourself into the group is not acceptable behavior.

  45. @Jennifer – I agree that in an ideal world we could help the creeper understand the error of their ways. However, in practice, I don’t think it’s possible. I made the mistake (one time) of trying to explain – to a guy who admitted he was clueless about girls – ‘how things work.’ Most of you can probably see how ambiguous a situation THAT leads to. Yeah. Never again.

  46. Xopher: no, I didn’t grow up gay (although you wouldn’t know that from all the accusations I got because I wasn’t masculine enough), and I did grow up homophobic. The incident that led to my atttitude changing was precisely because a wonderful man politely let me know he was interested and asked if it was reciprocated. My reaction was the problem — not his proposal — and eventually I was self-honest enough to figure out and cope with the implications of that.

    I understand what you’re trying to say, though, and I suspect we might be talking past each other at this point. I’m less interested in how the “telling them” happens — verbal, cultural behaviors, whatever — and more interested in the honesty and respect for the other person as a free agent.

  47. Roland Martinez:

    “Eventually the destination is some hyperliberal distopia where nobody gets laid.”

    This is in the running for the most stupidly tiresome thing someone’s said on a thread in a while.

    Also, news flash for Mr. Martinez: Just because I focused on geek culture does not mean it is only geek culture that could benefit from it.

    Now, go run off and be tiresome elsewhere, Mr. Martinez.

  48. Oh, and Xopher? If I met you, I would be made far more uncomfortable finding out that you had to suppress attraction rather than just let me know and have us work through whatever relatively minor discomfort might result.

  49. You know, could we maybe not have people jumping in to defend creepers as people who don’t know any better in a thread explaining how to not be creepy? I mean, we’ve fought this battle a dozen times, but saying that people don’t know any better defeats the point of this post.

  50. I appreciate your point of view, Devin, but for gay men who grew up in the 1970s, like me, it’s a matter of personal safety. Yes, that means I don’t trust straight men not to assault me (or just verbally abuse me) if I express attraction, no matter how politely I express it.

    If we became friends I would tell you eventually. I’m talking about the initial encounter (in the con suite or whatever).

  51. @ Devin L. Ganger: Very well said. And particularly appropriate when the target is a woman, given that women are socialized to be polite, more’s the pity. I have friends who are cops, and if I’ve heard them say it once, I’ve heard it a hundred times: if more women would trust their instincts when they feel that something or someone is off, there would be fewer female crime victims. Caveat: at least among my cop friends, this is said not as blaming the victim but as an indictment of the fact that our society routely socializes women out of taking their gut responses seriously for fear of being “rude”.

    John, this is well said. On a personal note, my oldest son has some social challenges. He is definitely awkward and sometimes makes people uncomfortable even though he has no intention of doing so. My husband and I have tried very hard to impress upon him exactly the sorts of things that you said, that he was the one who had to be aware of his presentation. When he was a teenager, he was pretty angry with us – why was it HIS responsibility to make sure that other people were comfortable?! Fortunately, he outgrew that, but I fear that a lot of the people who could really stand to take this to heart are probably stuck with that teen mindset.

  52. I love that people continue to try to use the “my culture has a different definition of personal space” as an excuse for begin rude. No one cares. When you are back home or among you own, you are culturally allowed to do what is normative. When you are at a con in Chicago, it is reasonable to expect visitors to understand that they are visitors and will need to change their behavior to the accepted norms of that gathering.

    Your culture ends when it enters my personal space. No one cares that you are uneducated, unintended or malicious. Get out of my space.

  53. I would like to point out that not all creeper behavior even comes up because of some kind of sexual intent. I am a very introverted 30-something who is chubby and looks younger than she actually is. This somehow makes me very huggable. Men, women, and small children love to hug me. Old people love to hug me. Strangers at streetcar stops have been known to randomly try to hug me. Nine out of ten times, this results in me physically recoiling and giving the awkward “Please get this over with as soon as possible and out of my space” hug/pat. Even if it’s totally nonsexual and nonthreatening and the other person knows it, you still don’t have the right to invade someone else’s space, and if that means awkwardly standing around not hugging, then so be it.

  54. I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response here. One
    thing that really resonated with me was how you spelled out ways to
    interpret other people’s nonverbal signals to stop: stop engaging,
    pursuing, or interacting. It’s made me realize that, as a woman, one
    of the main reasons I fear “creepers” is their inability to recognize
    such signals. Although I know some people are just not very socially
    apt, your response me understand that I fear their inability to
    understand the limits and “no.” If they can’t understand this kind of
    “no,” my fear must be, how will they understand if I actually say the
    words? Will they not? And does this obliviousness actually mean they
    have no concern for me, again, making them more likely to hurt me
    physically? That was a pretty interesting discovery for me, and I
    wonder if sharing it, while acknowledging it is not entirely rational,
    might help people understand why it is so important not to complain to
    a subject of your attentions who does not want to receive them about
    their lack of interest, or why it is important to walk away when you
    realize they are not interested. I do think the people who are
    genuinely socially awkward are often genuinely confused about what
    this is not okay. And then, of course, there are the actually threatening people, who just don’t care. And I don’t have a way to tell those two apart, so I’m not going to take the risk of making the wrong decision.

  55. I’m a nerd girl so I find myself at conventions, D&D games and SCA events so I get to meet a wide variety of people. Most of the ‘creeper’ type people I have met turned out to mostly be socially awkward but I have met the whole range from harmless to having to have the cops intervene to protect my safety.

    For the harmless ones it seems they just need to pay a little more attention to other peoples body language and verbal cues. I try to be kind but firm about what is unacceptable if they cross a line. If they seem to respect my limits I have no problem continuing to be friends with them.

    For the other, they don’t believe they have a problem and the best you can do is avoid them.

    I do have sympathy for those awkward types (I’m pretty awkward too) as it can sometimes be hard to judge as everyone seems to have a different senses of humor, bubbles of personal space and desire to be touched.

    Some of it also seems to come down to someone I don’t know being overly familiar with me before I get to know them. I suspect trust has something to do with this as an older friend who I trust can give me a hug but someone who is a stranger better not touch me!

  56. I’ve been a victim of “creeping” at cons before – every con I’ve ever attended, in fact, from my early teens onward, which is why I rarely if ever attend anymore. I was fortunate enough to be a part of the convention staff at the most recent convention where I suffered from unwanted attention, and was able to direct the con’s security to the individual in question.

    It’s unfortunate for *all* people that we need a set of guidelines to illustrate how not to be a creeper, but this is a very good start and certainly something worthy of consideration. It doesn’t matter where you are or what you’re doing. These rules apply every bit as much to public transportation, crowded stores, and airports as they do to geeks at cons.

  57. @CableFlame…yes, there are many non neurotypical types within fandom. NO it is NOT my job to give them extra space to behave in a socially unacceptable manner. If they can afford to show up at worldcon ($200+ for membership, $700+ for room, $300+ for flights, $150+ for food + whatever for spending) and they can make it there on their own…getting to the airport, making it through security, making their flight, finding their way to the hotel, etc they should know how to behave in society…if they CANNOT do these things without a carer, then that carer had damn well better be keeping a close eye on their charge.

    I can’t even begin to explain how difficult and exhausting it is to negotiate polite society when you can’t discern people’s reactions to you. It takes a LOT of work to not be seen as a person no one wants to be around. Does it mean I’m quieter and may not make as many connections as others? Yeah, totally…that’s why I volunteer in Ops at Worldcons, I can run the radio system and interact with just a few people at a time and have made some amazing friends among those who volunteer at cons.

    My work requires that I interact with a lot of people and I have to work to make sure my behavior/comments/etc are appropriate for the situation…going to a con does not negate those rules.

  58. I posted this in full on another thread, but it’s directly relevant here, and gives some specifics of incidents that happened to me (or in which I happened to someone else):

    “When I was in college, sometimes I gave boys the wrong idea. Part of this was that I was at the U of C, a notoriously hyper-geeky school. I suspect many of the boys I interacted with hadn’t spent a lot of time with girls before; they hadn’t had much of a chance to learn how to interpret social cues.

    Specifically, what happened, more than once, was that I would be friendly, I would smile, I would happily chat with them. I liked these boys fine, as people, as friends. I wasn’t interested in them romantically, and I didn’t say or do anything that I meant as flirting. And I certainly wasn’t the prettiest girl around, or the most attractively / seductively dressed. I think I lived in grubby jeans and baggy t-shirts back then. But nonetheless more than a few of those boys interpreted my smiles and cheerful chatter as flirtatious.

    Sometimes their responses were awkward, inappropriate. A few tried to kiss me, entirely out of the blue, as far as I could tell. When I, flustered, avoided the kiss, they stopped, and tried to apologize. It was messy and terribly awkward, but it also wasn’t the end of the world. None of those boys were persistent in their attempts to gain my affections — we clarified the misunderstanding, and moved on. We stayed friends….”

    More here: http://www.mamohanraj.com/journal/show-entry.php?Entry_ID=6831

  59. Roland Martinez missed what is probably one of the most important aspects of this conversation: no one has any bit of a right to “get laid.” Period, end of discussion. People have an absolute right to not be bothered by Roland Martinez while he’s trying to get laid, and Roland Martinez has zero right to bother other people with his libido.

  60. “6. Give them space. Hey: Hold your arm straight out in front of your body. Where your fingertips are? That’s a nice minimum distance for someone you’re meeting or don’t know particularly well (it’s also not a bad distance for people you do know).”

    Protip: Don’t do this when actually engaged in a conversation. You’ll probably end up touching the person, and will likely come off as creepy regardless. If you do hold your arm out, your best chance is to play it off as zombie cosplay. Moaning is contra-indicated, however.

  61. YES @ christy. Women should not ‘assume good intentions’ for creepy men. Women should trust their instincts and get out of any situation where they feel unsafe. Probably he wouldn’t have hurt you. Probably you’re hurting his feelings instead. That DOESN’T MAKE IT WRONG to do what it takes to stop the behaviour and protect yourself. Unless you are his parent, teacher, or therapist, you do NOT owe him free education on how to not be a creep.

    But if you still think you do, then consider that your rejection is, in itself, an education.

  62. My personal favorite rule of personal interaction: Pay attention to body language, especially hands. People will tell you exactly how they feel by the way they sit/stand (Stiff & a little apart? They want to get away.) & how they use their hands (gestures are good). The more relaxed the posture & gestures, the more comfortable they are.

    I would add that if you hold the power position in the interaction (and guys, this is almost always you if your communication partner is female), always err on the side of formality. Always. No exceptions. Pretend the other person is your boss – keep your distance, ask permission, watch your language. Your comm partner will tell you what is ok, & what is not.

  63. It’s weird, where as a feminist I think that I am, end of day, responsible for my own space and my own welfare and well-being.

    It doesn’t change how unbelievably, utterly, completely a relief it is when I find evidence that the community of men is, and can be, self-policing.

  64. Part of my gig as a worker bee in the video games industry is talking to strangers. I *initiate* contact. And I have (repeatedly) had people take that to mean: “This guy thinks I’m fascinating/interesting/attractive/smexy! I’m going to hang out with him!”
    I’m printing Number 9 on a t-shirt.
    Either that, or: “I just wanted to know your thoughts on the game… not go out for dinner & drinks.”

  65. I’ve been having lots of conversations about creepyness lately, and posting various links over in LJ land. Thank you for this contribution.

  66. Why would you assume I act that way Joe? The rules are simple. Treat women as equals. Realize that any kind of sex or inuendo of sex is inappropriate in most relationships and most places. Ask permission before you engage in any kind of touching. Realize you have a right and responsibility to speak up when anyone makes you uncomfortable. Support laws and policies that make harrassment consequential where power cannot be equalized. You don’t have to run up the word count to make those points. Xopher, a genuine thanks for the spelling tip.

  67. @wendylbolm: That must be difficult for you – I spent a long time thinking my need to hug people I like was more important than their need to feel comfortable, and I regret it. Now I always ask and only if the person seems open to it. One suggestion for you is, when you see someone coming in for a hug, swiftly put your hand up between you and the hugger and say loudly with a smile, “Sorry, I’m not a hugger.” Hopefully this will stop some of the unsolicited hugs in public. Good luck!

  68. It seems like good advice to me. And I agree particularly with sentiment that we ought not be defending creepers. That is pretty clear from points 1-3 and elsewhere. If you’re creeping, you need to own it.

    That said, as someone who has at times been socially awkward, I do think it would be humane to add: if you detect that your company is not wanted, it is normal to feel disappointed and sad. Rejection is never fun. And while it is something you need to deal with on your own, rejection by itself does not necessarily mean you are a bad or undesirable person. It may mean you made some mistakes that you should genuinely regret and try to learn from. It may also mean that fate was simply ungenerous. Or both. Acknowledge your hurt without indulging in self pity. Tell yourself to be honest, to do your best, and move on. The future holds endless opportunity. Don’t miss out by getting stuck on something that didn’t happen the way you hoped.

  69. There’s a book titled “The Gift of Fear”. It was recommended to me by a cop friend. I, in turn, recommend it to women, men, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri — anyone who gets creeped on but is pressured to “be nice” or “be understanding”.

    And yes — if you can get to the con by yourself, you are a functioning human being. You have no excuse to be creepy, and you do have an obligation not to be. If you cannot manage minimum social behavior, you’re going to need to go out with a carer. Perhaps in addition to “Kid-In-Tow” memberships, Worldcon could sell “Creeper-In-Tow” ones?

    Remember, creepers, some people carry pepper spray. Some people know martial arts. And some people carry guns. Pretty much everyone knows how to give a kick to the family jewels.

    (Not that I’m encouraging violence against the socially dysfunctional, but the creepers who are motivated by narcissism might only be teachable through self-preservation.)

  70. As far as whether a victim of a creeper is responsible to for telling the person to go away or stop doing something, I think they are. Not immediately, but once the subtle social cues are ignored. Because not doing so is ridiculous. It’s part of the ingrained social rules (particularly for women) that we don’t say nasty things to someone’s face. That directly telling someone they are doing something wrong is rude and therefore a social death sentence.

    But in the end, these are merely social norms. And there are situations where breaking them, and telling someone to go away is only assertive self defense. It makes you feel in control and it gives a clear guideline for the socially stupid. And in the event that it doesn’t work, following up with complaints to authorities should also never be considered an awkward, socially demeaning thing to do.

    We can defend the position that it’s not the victim’s responsibility by saying it just makes the victim even more uncomfortable, but being temporarily uncomfortable is not the end of the world. Taking control and acting assertive is far more likely to deter future bad behavior than just being passive. It also makes the victim feel less victimized and if everyone did it, we would have a culture in which creeping couldn’t thrive. In the end, the only thing you can control is your ability to react to someone else’s behavior.

  71. itsathought2:

    “Because not doing so is ridiculous.”

    Actually, it’s not. I would agree it’s useful to be told. But it’s not the harassee’s obligation, and placing an obligation on the person being harassed means that we’re back to giving the harasser a pass as long as he’s not directly confronted. And, you know. That’s crap.

  72. As to personal space and genre writers, I recall hearing from a mutual friend that Mickey Spillane owned two homes, one for him, one for his wife, about a block apart. They took turns sleeping over at each other’s pads, and could each have parties with friends who did not necessarily get along with the spouse or friends of the spouse.

  73. I’d also add, about the recent unpleasantness: trying to bug the person into accepting your apology, or trying to apologize when someone clearly doesn’t want to talk to you — that’s also creepy. If someone’s said they don’t want to talk to you, then silence and distance is the only acceptable form of apology. Remember, it’s not about making yourself feel better.

  74. Thank you. At times I’ve wanted to have “these are not my eyes” printed on a T shirt, but never had as it might well have made things worse. I hate being stared at, some (thankfully not many) blokes seem to think we don’t notice where they are staring. We do. Yes, I accept that a few men are very socially awkward, but that’s not the same as being creepy, that’s just being awkward. Creepy is being creepy, just stop it!

  75. Actually, it’s not. I would agree it’s useful to be told. But it’s not the harassee’s obligation, and placing an obligation on the person being harassed means that we’re back to giving the harasser a pass as long as he’s not directly confronted. And, you know. That’s crap.

    Not to mention that odds are good — not 100%, but good — that the harasser’s already been told, by multiple people, and is choosing not to listen.

    Which is also crap.

  76. In addition to +1ng John on the ‘placing obligations on the harassee’ is balls (not a direct quote), I would say, to me, it is more than social norms that I, as a woman, do not tell people directly to “go away” if I am feeling uncomfortable. Because, if I’m uncomfortable, it can mean I don’t trust them to respect any boundaries as per my comment above – and if that proves true, I am more likely to be hurt in some way, perhaps seriously, through direct confrontation at odds with social expectations of women. I don’t see that as my accepting those norms, but as my approach to risk mitigation. Everyone’s MMV, but I think it’s not an uncommon idea, though it may be an unconscious one.

  77. Well written. Especially #2 which I often find to be the thing that creeps have problems understanding. I have linked to this in two places so far, because I think that it needs to be read by more people. It needed saying and you said it well!

  78. Given that the article above maintains that we are not responsible for each others well being it would be more useful to start with advice that is aimed at the well being of the creeper rather than those that they creep out. The article starts with the assumption that the person reading it (a male heterosexual) is a creeper and tells them what they should not do. The advice is so extreme that anyone who needs it has serious basic social problems probably with people generally as well as women.

    It would be useful to give advice on how to charm (or at least not repel) people.

    Such as:
    -picking up unspoken social cues.
    -importance of hygiene.
    -learning to listen to women. Having female friends who are not potential sex partners so that you become comfortable around women.
    -striking the balance between being ingratiating and rude when dealing with people generally and women in particular. I have seen guys be too polite around women in a way that makes them uneasy.
    -don’t be yourself 100%. Not with people you don’t know well anyway.
    -learning to lie socially.

    Any other suggestions ?

  79. Xopher – this is somewhat a case of topic drift, but my experience as a gay man who grew up in the 80s – and who didn’t come out until 2001 – seems to be very different from yours; it would never occur to me that i needed to hide the fact that i’m attracted to someone.

  80. Any men out there who are grumping about being picked on should keep in mind that I read this list and winced in recognition a few times myself. Particularly Improbable Joe’s addendum, which deserves reiteration:

    Later on I figured out a version of #4 above: don’t come at other people with intent that ignores their agency. Don’t have preconceived notions of how you would like an encounter with another person to go, because it assumes they owe you a favorable response. Don’t blame the other person if they don’t follow your ideal script, because it is your fault for dehumanizing people by assigning them a role without their permission or input. Sometimes it doesn’t “go the way you want it to” but why would you really get to decide for someone else how they should react to you?

  81. Horace:

    “Given that the article above maintains that we are not responsible for each others well being”

    Actually, it says that we’re responsible for our own actions, which is an entirely different thing.

    Beyond that, I’m not obliged to write the article you appear to think I should be writing. If you want that article written, by all means write it yourself.

  82. I can only think of one thing to add to this list off the top of my head, but it’s late and I’m tired. If you feel the need to say “but I won’t do anything bad to you” in response to someone declining your offer for company, that is a warning sign that at some level you recognise you are being creepy. Just stop and let them go. There are other fish in the sea. Someone said this to me once in this situation and it didn’t make me feel less creeped out because they were a complete stranger to me and whether or not they had good intentions, they would have denied having bad intentions, so the statement didn’t tell me anything useful.

  83. I like this, and you’re spot on, but in the end I think it’s mostly futile. IMO, if you are (like the guy you quote) worried about being a creep… you’re probably not a creep. Most of what you talk about is common courtesy, stuff that we learned in kindergarten, and it doesn’t seem to be much of a problem for these dudes outside of this specific environment. Most of the guys who creep on people are, well, I won’t say they don’t give a shit, but I think they’re just invested in willful ignorance. There are a million and one dubious contextual excuses you can make for yourself in any given situation. The only solution is a zero-tolerance policy. One that’s actually enforced.

    The only point I’d take issue with is #2 – you’re not a creep if someone just doesn’t feel like talking to you. That’s personal preference, context, etc., and you’ve done nothing wrong by approaching someone and finding yourself incompatible for whatever reason. You become a creep when you insist upon imposing yourself on this non-receptive person. That’s sort of another thing, for people asking how they can know they’re acting creepy without a signal- and I do understand that complaint- so IMO, you should only pursue a conversation if the other person responds with enthusiastic participation and actively positive body language. I think it can be safely assumed that a neutral or guarded response isn’t an invitation to keep trying, it’s a sign that you should probably go away. And then you’re not a creep!

    Yeah, it’s possible that someone could be playing coy, or whatever. But that’s stupid, and it’s their problem, not yours.

  84. John,

    In response to your two points:

    1-“Acknowledge that no one’s required to inform you that you’re creeping (or help you to not be a creeper)” I read that as “You have a problem. It is your problem and it no one elses responsibility to solve it”

    2-Write what you want but given that you want to change creepers behaviour I think that it would be more useful to appeal to their own self interest, particularly in the light of point one.

    Perhaps your article is more useful in helping creepees discuss what happened to them. A different if useful goal.

  85. @Horace:

    >The advice is so extreme that anyone who needs it has serious basic social problems probably with people generally as well as women

    Nope. The creeping addressed here isn’t extreme; it’s common as dirt and women have been talking about it and comparing notes for ages, quite publicly. If you think the behavior described beyond the pale, you’re not paying much attention — and you don’t *have* to pay attention, since men are rarely on the receiving end of a creeper’s behavior.

    It’s tempting to pathologize creepers, because it makes it sound like creepy, predatory behavioris an uncommon rarity, which is flat-out wrong.

  86. Arlette,

    do you think that most men creep some of the time or is it a problem of a few men continually behaving this way ?

  87. Horace:

    “I read that as ‘You have a problem. It is your problem and it no one elses responsibility to solve it'”

    Which in itself is still not the same as “we are not responsible for others’ well-being,” however.

  88. Waxley… I completely disagree. As a woman whose personal space has been both violently and subtly violated, in various situations, having these basic things put out in public serves many purposes including to validate to me that my basic sense of what my physical space rights are is, in fact, both fair and defensible.

    Not in terms of women, and my world.
    But men, and a man’s world.

    For a man to say to other men “this is how we must behave” in this way is powerful. Men reading it will check themselves, because John is a figure of respect. For me, it is validation as I said that I do not have to take the burden of this defense on for myself, even though I choose to.

    It means the society of men, as I said, will maintain their own codes, ethics and look out for each other’s behavior in this matter, so that I may (and will), but am not forced to.

    Also? Walk a day in any woman’s shoes and you will see how often innocent ignorance makes for discomfort and how often you ignore it at your own expense to be nice, polite, compassionate or just because it’s the path of least resistance.

    No, from my perspective it’s both useful and necessary.

  89. “4. Acknowledge that other people do not exist just for your amusement/interest/desire/use.”

    Thank you for considering this. I go to cons/shows/etc. because I like stuff, some of that stuff guys like too… I know, its crazy!

    Its extremely frustrating to have interactions (aka. normal discourse between fellow human beings), misconstrued as flirting just because we are of the opposite sex. I understand its a let down when you’re into someone that way, and they aren’t into you, but you can’t blame them for speaking to you. If I find someone thats passionate about something cool, I want to talk about it! Its not an all signs point toward my vagina just because we’ve talked about the handheld weaponry on Firefly for half an hour. I know it can be complicated navigating the world of social situations sometimes, but I wish more guys looked at interaction with women with the same regard as their friends, or just other humans, and if something else ends up sparking for each other, thats a hell of a bonus, right?

    But its also about being respectful both ways. If a guy I’m talking to starts hinting around to romantic interest, and the feeling is not mutual, I immediately drop hints (subtle towards not so subtle), because it is a crappy thing to lead someone on. But once you’re in that situation and have gotten the hint the feeling isn’t mutual, the proper response is to either bow out of the interaction if thats what your goal is, or continue just enjoying the conversation. NOT to assume she’s some evil succubus who has tricked you with her feminine wiles while you could of been out actually scoring with a chick. We just like stuff man, sometimes that stuff isn’t your penis… and we shouldn’t have to apologize for that.

  90. Waxley… I completely disagree.

    Okay, that’s totally fair. I misspoke a little bit- I wasn’t trying to insinuate that this discussion shouldn’t be had, or anything like that. It should be. I was just expressing some general frustration in that I think a lot of the guys who are the problem are just going to continue their self-justifications, and we need to accept that, and also accept that there are always going to be a few bad apples who need to be dealt with more forcefully. Posts like this make it harder for them, and bring to light the problem to the rest of the community, and make people/women feel more welcome, and all that. And that’s completely awesome. I’m just saying it’s not sufficient, which I’m sure everyone agrees with.

  91. Waxley:

    “I’m just saying it’s not sufficient, which I’m sure everyone agrees with.”

    As noted, this is meant to be a start.

  92. I like this a lot.

    I think I rarely come across as creepy, but I wouldn’t say “never.” Most of the time these rules are pretty nearly instinctive for me (and most women, I’d say), having been drilled into me practically from birth. Our socialization process for girls includes a lot of Making Other People Comfortable. That totally has good and bad sides.

    I’m a lesbian who looks like a lesbian, and I had a fairly recent experience in which I was unintentionally creepy. I met a bunch of people that day, including a young, pretty straight girl. I was not even vaguely interested in the young pretty straight girl as anything but a pleasant, casual acquaintance. She approached me at one point and we chatted a while. She was obviously shy, and I like shy people. No problem there. Later, we were at a drag show / dance event. We were in the same group of people and I was dancing near her (with a group of other people). When I smiled at her, she smiled back wanly and shifted her eyes away. When I (goofing off with everyone in the group) tossed her my hat, she played with it a while before handing it on, but seemed uncomfortable.

    It stung. Seriously. I wasn’t getting in her space or demanding her attention or checking her out. She’s very very far from my type, but even if she was, I don’t spend a lot of time checking out straight women. I had to kind of sit on my reactions, though; because whatever it was I intended (friendly! Nothing more!) that clearly wasn’t what she was perceiving. And there was nothing I could do to fix that. So I backed way off, was visibly silly with some other people who didn’t mind in hopes that she’d notice I wasn’t hitting on them any more than I’d been hitting on her. And that was that.

    Later she sat down next to me. I mean, there were no other chairs available, but I was concentrating so hard on not making her uncomfortable that I hadn’t even noticed she was walking over until she asked if the seat was taken. I still didn’t talk to her except when she initiated, though. At that point I was trying to figure out how to stay friendly and approachable but non-threatening. I didn’t want to come across as icy and distant, because that can also be threatening.

    My point, I guess, is that even those of us who are reasonably socially adept can be seen as creepers, even if we don’t think we’re doing anything wrong, and even though it kind of sucks and feels like shit it’s still our responsibility to quit making someone feel uncomfortable. I walked away from there feeling odd and kind of crappy, questioning what I could have done differently; but with any luck, she didn’t. I mean, she friended me on Facebook later, so my back-the-hell-off probably worked. :)

  93. Improbably Joe — “You can avoid being a creeper but not having a goal that you are creeping towards” is one of the best lines I have read in a *long* time. (And I read good stuff!)

  94. Seems to me it’d be easier if folks just assumed that in the vast majority of public spaces, people are not there to get hit on. People who do want to get hit on will go to spaces or events built around that sort of thing. Everyone else should be considered off limits.

    This doesn’t preclude friendly conversation over topics of mutual interest. You simply treat everyone the same way you would someone you’re not attracted to. If you can’t honestly say the behavior in question would be the same for someone of a gender you don’t sleep with, then don’t do it.

  95. Various thoughts.

    1. That piece was triggery… our SF group had one of those guys. He’d be hounded out of various bits of fandom. While I was away on business he shacked up with my ex. (generally, my friends tell me I was lucky, I believe them)

    2. I am loathe to blame too much on Aspergers Syndrome because I have a few friends who are fairly well along the spectrum and they are strange but not creeps. Creeping requires a much better developed sense of emotional affect and they know damn well what they’re doing

    3. Being British, personal space can and should include the room to swing a cat, reverse a bus and possible park an aircraft in. I used to work with a person who believed that 3-4cm was acceptable. It was not.

    4. Being good at “picking up women” and being a creep are not the same things. I have friends who, shall we say, are very good in that department and generally speaking have good relationships with all their exes even if the liaison was, shall we say, limited to a few nights. One of the reasons they were so successful was because they weren’t creeps. I don’t know what they had but I suspect Bill Clinton had it too. Married female friends would explain to me that they had something they just liked and if they were single they would act on it. Another feature was they didn’t hit on married female friends.

    That said, I strongly suspect that if you don’t know that you’re in category 4 very early in your life, then you are almost certainly not, and behaving like you are is going to be creepy.

  96. I think if I were going to boil it down to one piece of advice, I would say that if you find yourself having to trick, distract, or ignore the signals of the person you’re trying to woo, you’re creeping. There’s nothing wrong with being attracted, and there’s nothing wrong with showing you’re attracted per se, but it shouldn’t have to involve extensive subterfuge and slight of hand. Lurking while the person ignores you, having to initiate touch by sneaking up or doing that hoary old yawn-and-stretch move, having to fail to notice the overly-polite laugh at your jokes or the fact that the person seems to be scanning the room instead of looking at you in order to continue the conversation… those are red flags. When the other person is interested, you don’t have to do that stuff. If you do, they aren’t, and you aren’t going to change that by trying to sneak in under the radar. All you’re going to do is make it plain that you don’t actually care what the other person thinks. You’d be far better off with a cheerful, direct, “Want to grab a bite with me?”. If you get a no, even an indirect one, say, “Sure, no problem,” and move on. It’s sexy to be confident enough to ask, and it’s also sexy to have enough going on that a single no obviously doesn’t ruin your whole year. Sneaking and trickery? Not sexy, and also increasingly slimy and evil as you up the deception levels.

  97. Let’s face it, geeky guys tend to the creepy. Oh, they don’t mean to, but “geeky” is highly correlated to “Creepy”, due to the former groups bad social skills. Which is why “geek” has such a bad connotation even among adults.

    Having said that I can’t wonder if this guide wasn’t caused by increased incidents where girls (and guys) felt uncomfortable. The increased number of incidents is probably highly correlated to the increased interest by non-“geek” or quasi-“geek” girls going to the events which formerly were almost exclusively geek. Which means they’re encountering geek culture and clashing with it.

    Which brings up a saying “When in Rome do as the Romans do”. Well, that’s not the best phrase to use here. Maybe it’s more “When in Saudi Arabia, and a woman, understand that the denizens of that country are going to freak out if you don’t cover your hair and dress modestly”. Now, are they wrong if they stone you to death (as does happen often)? Sure. Could you avoid a rock to the head by being a little more sensitive to their culture? Yup.

    So, what I really advocating here is a compromise. If you feel uncomfortable by a creepy geek, please pull him/her aside and let him/her know. Trust me, if you do it in that way 8-1/2 times out of ten he’ll blush and say “I’m sorry” end of creeping.

  98. Hi John Scalzi,

    If I am not responsible for helping you with your problems then you are not responsible for helping me with mine. How does that differ from we are not responsible for each others well being ?

    My impression is that most heterosexual men can act creepily occasionally but there is a socially inept minority who are like this continually. This is only based on what women have told me and what I have seen of my own behaviour and that of other men, perhaps there is a lot that women don’t normally say.

    By creepy I mean someone who makes women uncomfortable and is unsuccessful. There are plenty of men who are successful with women and completely amoral. A different problem though ?

  99. Actually, I just realized a non-hitting-on situation that requires non-creeper behavior: women who think other women are open to physical contact or other intimacy just because it’s not sexual.

    I am a huge cuddle slur with the people I know and love. Strangers, however, do not get to touch me.

    Also: for the love of FSM, please stop talking to me in bathrooms. I’m there to do some personal business, not chitchat about the damned weather.

  100. Scorpius:

    “Let’s face it, geeky guys tend to the creepy.”

    Meh. I’d say geeky guys tend toward awkward, but awkward isn’t the same as creepy. I spend a lot of time with geeky guys and most of them don’t press my “creepy” buttons (note, mind you, that as noted I have a different perspective of geeky guys than women do — but then, so would you, Scorpius).

    I don’t think the rest of your post is accurate, either. Many of the recent high-profile cases of creeperism are not about “non-geek” women entering the geekosphere; Genevieve Valentine, whose harassment precipitated the Readercon incident, has been part of the science fiction community for some time. It’s more the case that women and others in geekdom have gotten to the point where they don’t feel obliged to tolerate creeps any further. They are the Romans, they’re just pissed at the other Romans who are creepers.

    Again, it’s nice when people go out of their way to let someone else know they’re being creepy, and I think it’s probably a mitzvah when they do. But it’s not obligatory, and there shouldn’t be even a hint of censure if they don’t.

    Horace:

    “If I am not responsible for helping you with your problems then you are not responsible for helping me with mine.”

    Actually, from a logical point point of view, that doesn’t necessarily follow.

    Which is me busting your chops, but reinforces the fact that you are continuing to make inferences which are not in evidence.

  101. I wanted to add something about the other cultures and personal space issue. What an earlier commenter here said about many cultures/countries having different standards is true. I’m Canadian, I’ve heard it said we generally have the biggest desired personal space area going. I live in Korea where, because of a combination of culture and population density, expected personal space is much smaller. This is something someone in my situation has to learn to deal with, to a degree.

    HOWEVER, all of the rules in this post still apply. It is nobody’s responsibility to parse out why someone is violating their personal space or making them feel uncomfortable. Despite cultural differences everyone is capable of realizing when they’ve made someone uncomfortable and backing off. Rules 5 and 6 might get violated because of cultural differences but if all the other advice here is in play then it should really only happen once, maybe twice. After that, the person from the different culture who accidentally creeped should realize there’s a problem, figure out what it is and avoid doing it in the future. And if the 1st or 2nd occasion causes an opportunity for a specific friendship or social interaction to be lost forever? Too bad, so sad. Life isn’t perfect and there are a lot of people in the world. They don’t all need to like you.

    Finally – it must be said that the differences in personal space and acceptability of touching in other cultures are often used by men in those cultures as cover for deliberate creeping and worse. I’m not saying any culture/country is better or worse about these issues but there are bad people in every culture and they always use whatever cover and excuse is available to them to get away with their behavior. Sure, some innocent meaning folks might get burned when crossing cultures, but no woman (or man) should have to give up their right to be comfortable and safe to play cultural ambassador or teacher.

  102. Diera,

    I think the problem is educating guys about indirect cues. That is why I mentioned polite lies, learning to give them as an excuse to get out when you are not interested or start to realize that the person is not interested in you, trains you to hear them.

    What you say about being direct about your sexual intentions contradicts all my instincts about behaviour around women. I have always looked for indirect positive cues before trying anything. Which is a bit worrying actually, perhaps some women have found me creepy ?

  103. @Xopher

    I think there are definitely different social norms and rules among gay people or in gay/straight interactions (kinda like I mentioned above). I’m very careful not to creep on straight women. I mean, I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but my gayness can make straight women uncomfortable all by itself, and I know that. And like you, I’m nearly always nervous around straight (cis) men who aren’t well-known to me. The violence risk is somewhat different (trigger ahead): you’d be more likely to be killed for appearing to show interest, and I’d be more likely to be raped for not doing so. Either way though, straight men are likely to be read as potential threats.

    I was a child in the 80s and came out in the 90s, so it’s not just generational. I’m glad there are gay people out there now who aren’t walking around with that extra burden of fear, though. Someday maybe the “gay panic” defense will be seen as the ridiculous thing it is and we’ll be as safe as anyone else…

    In lesbian spaces I’ve been in, well, we’re notoriously handsy – but with one fairly nasty recent exception, every woman I’ve ever been around has responded well and quickly to being asked to back off. Asking if one can touch is common. Asking for a hug isn’t “can I have a hug?” most of the time, it’s “would you like a hug?” or “do you do hugs?” Those put the other person’s comfort front and center, not one’s own. I like this. Sexual conversation is common but tends toward the matter-of-fact (lube and toy comparisons, kink disclosures). The points in the guide would still be good starting points, but some of them are probably less necessary. And the bit about initiating things – always leaving it to others – would totally backfire. I think in that context would it would be better to talk about how to express interest nonthreateningly, giving the person in question ample space and comfort to reject you without it being a huge deal. And knowing when it’s okay to do that. It’s a good skill for anyone to have, really. :)

  104. Thanks for this. May I add (based on a set of events in another community) that elevators at night are not good places to test how friendly someone might be. So, for example, following a woman who has not given you her room key or other just as blatant signal of her desire for more contact out of a bar and into an elevator — especially if there are no other occupants — and then focusing attention on her is probably going to make her feel uneasy.

  105. Scorpius,
    I think an important point you, and others, are missing in this conversation is that just because many cases of creeping might be driven by awkwardness doesn’t mean all are, and the times when it is deliberate predatory behavior its a dangerous situation for the target. You can’t expect a woman (or man) to decide whether this stranger bothering them is safe or not – because that’s how the predators hide. It’s that attitude they count on and exploit. I’m not saying no one should take your advice, but John’s right. The choice of how to deal with the situation lies with the victim (intentional or not) and they are not obligated to play guidance counselor for the benefit of strangers.

  106. Scorpius:

    “Trust me, if you do it in that way 8-1/2 times out of ten he’ll blush and say “I’m sorry” end of creeping.”

    What do you envision happens the other fifteen percent of seemingly awkward social encounters when he doesn’t blush?

  107. awkward isn’t the same as creepy

    YES! As I said, I have good ‘aspie’ friends and creeping isn’t really a part of the problem.

    Other thoughts have occurred reading to the bottom.

    Sexual Innuendo and Double Entendre – this can be regional. The British have entire very mainstream humour based on this and yet manage to also be quite stand offish and repressed about things. It’s not an immediate clue, but if combined with invasion of personal space and eye contact gets ‘wrong’ really quickly. Also: Flirting does not involve sexual overtones… in fact if it does you’re probably doing it wrong.

    Somebody linked to a piece on LJ recently which struck home. Treat people like you would treat an unfamiliar dog. I came to dog owning late, having been bitten as a kid. I learned a lot getting used to living with a relatively self aware mammal in the house. You don’t go up and touch a dog. Never. They don’t like it. Fortunately, being dogs, they are allowed to put their hair up, their tail down and bite you. You stand close to them, you speak softly, you reach and if they are interested they say hello.

    Treat female people better than you would treat a stray dog. Please.

  108. Other Bill:

    “What do you envision happens the other fifteen percent of seemingly awkward social encounters when he doesn’t blush?”

    Well, you know, if only 15% of uncomfortable encounters end in assault, we lose all right to complain! ;)

  109. (types… types…) thinks better of it, hits CTL-X and waits for John to wield the mallet.

    Get HELP dude.

  110. Let’s face it, geeky guys tend to the creepy. Oh, they don’t mean to, but “geeky” is highly correlated to “Creepy”, due to the former groups bad social skills. Which is why “geek” has such a bad connotation even among adults.

    I think there’s a difference between awkward and creepy. I think most women over a certain age can tell the difference. One can be irritating, but it is not in any way threatening. The other feels dangerous.

    For instance, a twenty-minute monologue about Kingdom Hearts when you have no interest at all in Kingdom Hearts can be a trial. It is twenty minutes of a hyper-focused person’s incredible monomania about a video game. It is an obvious attempt to share an enthusiasm decoupled from an ability to accurately pinpoint an audience who cares.

    But…it is not creepy. It might be twenty minutes of a day we’d like back, but it’s not creepy. In most cases, it’s clear that the person is, in fact, socially clueless, and we’re kind of trapped in place because we don’t actually want to kick a puppy in the face, in part by telling them that the object of their incredible delight is not, in fact, delightful to us.

    Most of the overt geek behaviour at conventions falls into this category. Since people are picking up the whole “socially awkward” and “neuro-atypical” threads, I want to make clear that yes, IMHO, many people at conventions are these things. But the vast majority of awkward interaction is not also creepy. We’ll hide in the bathroom because we want to get away without being a crushing, normative blow. Should we have to? No. But almost all of my friends – male or female – have done this. We don’t actually want to hurt a total stranger’s feelings.

  111. “That’s actually almost entirely off point.” — unless one or more of Mickey Spillane’s friends creeped out his wife, or vice versa — which is possible, but I lack evidence. My point being that authors who earn enough money can construct de-creeped environments, which I apologize for failing to convey. The rules and recommendations in this fine thread exist because person A and person B meet in a con environment structured by person C. Unlike what Facebook would have you believe, a friend of a friend is not necessarily a friend. “Friend” is a nontransitive relationship. After all, my wife is my relative (by marriage)( but my wife’s relatives are not my relatives; they are my in-laws, which is a different kind of link. Non commutativity is at work in the pathologies being guarded against here: A is attracted to B most assuredly does NOT mean that B is attracted to A. The noncommutativity and nontransitivity are being presented here in a geeky way, for asocial people who grasp Math batter than they intuit social dynamics.

  112. Awww, I had a good response to the most recent troll!

    Actually, it kind of stands by itself. If you’re a man, and you think it’s ridiculous that you’re read as creepy for doing innocent things, and you blame the women in question and not, say, the fact that so many of us are raped and sexually assaulted by men? Well, then, you probably are creepy, even when you’re doing innocent things. You certainly aren’t thinking in a way that respects other people’s different life experiences and their agency.

    If it comes down to “poor me! I can’t even talk to a woman without her thinking I’m awful!” then you’re probably at least a little bit awful and should refer to the post above to figure out how not to be. You could start by remembering that strangers don’t owe you attention and affection.

  113. Following on from the excellent points Michelle made. My friends with Aspergers are not awkward. They will unintentionally monopolise the conversation (Formula 1 anybody? Lap by lap explanation of what Hamiliton did wrong?) They will get upset if they are interrupted and go straight back to a point that they had been making 20 minutes before about obscure TV from the 1970s without noticing that the conversation has moved on quite significantly.

    They are not creepy when they are doing this. The two things are not the same.

  114. Quoting Xilon, for Scalzi

    >The choice of how to deal with the situation lies with the victim
    >(intentional or not) and they are not obligated to play guidance
    >counselor for the benefit of strangers.

    John,

    The above is what I mean by “If I am not responsible for helping you
    with your problems then you are not responsible for helping me with mine.”

    Perhaps we are talking past each other ? I define a creep as someone who
    puts the victim into this situation unintentionally, not as a predator.

  115. For most women of my generation, bringing sex into the conversation when you are a total stranger is creepy. It just is. There is way too much ego and way to much overt aggression associated with sex. I know that many people don’t mind if a stranger point blank asks them if they’re interested in sex, but frankly, I consider it creepy. Even if you are polite and you go away immediately when I say No. Because: what the hell?

    Women are conditioned not to say No. It starts in childhood. It continues beyond that. No is a b*tch word. We’re not expected to say No, flat out – that’s mean. We’re expected to find socially acceptable ways of saying No. Most of us don’t learn how to say No in a reasonable way until we’ve gone through No in a f*ck off and die, a**hole way first. When you drop something like that on my head out of the blue, failing to notice that I am wearing a wedding ring, you are doing two things. First: you are immediately turning the interaction into a gendered one, a sexualized one–which is definitively not why I go to conventions–and second, you are putting me in the position where I have to say No.

    Honestly, to be comfortable with No as a statement of preference requires more comfort with the person to whom we’re saying it, not less.

    Because of the differences in socialization, most women will say No in a variety of ways. Most of them will be subverbal. They will – by the lights of many creeps – “lie”. But think about it: women don’t feel like they have the power in a sexualized interaction like that – so they are trying to say “nice doggy, nice doggy” when they make excuses or change the subject. They are saying No in a way that is socially acceptable and hoping the “nice doggy” works to prevent you from becoming a frothing rabid danger. When they are out in public among people they do not know well, they are all on Best Behaviour. Mostly. So it is even less likely that No is the comfortable response.

    Because I am old and cranky, I will say flat out No, and probably despise you for the rest of your life unless you miraculously save one of my children from a fatal accident later in our history. If you fail to take that bald, flat No, I will probably say a lot more. Because in the end, I don’t really care if I raise a big stink and suck all the fun out of the room; at that point, I’m not having fun, and I’m willing to share.

  116. Thank you for spelling this out, especially #4. I’m tired of seeing men be utterly astonished that any woman they take a shine to is not, in fact, obligated to worship them or give them any attention at all, just because they are breathing

  117. tessuraea: Indeed. Indeed. And, honestly, how many socially awkward encounters does one have in their life? That fit this issue? Ten, twelve? I mean, I’m SWM, so my guesstimate might be low.

  118. Horace @10:12pm: If you didn’t see it, Anna Leckie posted this in the earlier thread on Readercon/harassment, on the topic of men and indirect cues: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/mythcommunication-its-not-that-they-dont-understand-they-just-dont-like-the-answer/

    Shorter version: Communications researchers suggest that both men and women use indirect communication and cues all the time, in all sorts of interactions, and understand them just fine; a subset of people ignore those cues (at least some of the time).

  119. Other Bill:

    tessuraea: Indeed. Indeed. And, honestly, how many socially awkward encounters does one have in their life? That fit this issue? Ten, twelve? I mean, I’m SWM, so my guesstimate might be low.

    You’re off by a couple of orders of magnitude. You’re being sarcastic, right?

    (Even as an obvious dyke I get creepy-man-ick about once a month, and I don’t spend a ton of time around unfamiliar straight men.)

  120. And, honestly, how many socially awkward encounters does one have in their life? That fit this issue? Ten, twelve? I mean, I’m SWM, so my guesstimate might be low.

    Dude, it is way low.

  121. Horace:

    “I define a creep as someone who puts the victim into this situation unintentionally, not as a predator.”

    This, however, is not how I defined it in the entry. Moreover, I believe your definition is limiting and, perhaps unintentionally, attempts to minimize the fact that many of the people (particularly men) who make others (particularly women) feel unsafe do so because those others are unsafe around them.

    You seem to keep wanting this entry to do something other than what it does. What I am not seeing is why it should, or whether what you appear to want it to do has better value than what it does do.

  122. [Deleted for responding to a deleted comment. Wendy Whipple, it’s not you, I just believe that not feeding the troll anything is the way to go, especially after I’ve deleted their comment. If you want to repost the gist of your comment without addressing it to said deleted troll, go for it — JS]

  123. tariqata,

    Couldn’t get to the paper but I read the blog post. I don’t think that the paper applies to creepiness,
    it seems to be about rape.

    I read that blog as saying that most men can understand muted nos, so in the case of
    rape the problem is not misscommunication.

    >It is also clear that the men can hear both ‘little hints’ and ‘softened’
    >refusals as refusals.

    In the case of creepiness I think that we are talking about the minority of men who do not hear these hints as soon as they should, although they do eventually, as these men do not commit rape.

  124. Yes…I still remember the con when someone who really, REALLY should have known better snuck up behind me while I was attending a friend’s reading and decided to hug me from behind. I was thisclose to elbowing him in the gut, but I was raised to be polite so I simply recoiled forward and broke his clutch. He then decided to stand right next to my table when I was doing a signing and hover. That? Was creepy.

    The other problem is, I suspect some of these guys (not all, granted, but a certain percentage) get off on being creepy. If they can’t get admiration, respect, or attention from their targets, they’ll settle for disgust and, in some extreme cases, fear.

  125. Hi John,

    as you were responding to someone’s request for advice (see below) I took your definition of
    a creeper as someone (usually heterosexual male) who unintentionally makes a woman
    uncomfortable.

    I think that it is useful to separate the case of the guy who asked you for advice from
    someone who is a sexual predator.

    will drop by tomorrow.

    >>Any tips on how not to be a creeper? I try not to be,
    >>but I don’t know that I’m the best judge of that.

    >Let’s define our terms here. Let’s say that for this particular
    >conversation, a “creeper” is someone whose behavior
    >towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable
    >at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe.

  126. Jeez. After reading this comment thread, I have a better sense of why I’ve not been motivated to go to any fan event since the (January 1975) Star Trek convention in New York City.

  127. Horace:

    “I took your definition of a creeper as someone (usually heterosexual male) who unintentionally makes a woman uncomfortable.”

    And yet you copy in your last comment what I actually did write, which neither specified lack of intentionality nor women as the sole targets for creeping.

    It’s useful to assume that the definition of the thing I am discussing is actually defined by the words I use. Otherwise you are likely to have poor results.

  128. Horace,
    No. We are talking about people who make others feel uncomfortable or unsafe. They very well might be rapists. Or perhaps they’re *just* going to settle for sexual assault. Or perhaps not. The point is the person feeling unsafe has no way to know for sure. Again it has to be pointed out that the true predators use the attitudes of folks like you to hide.
    “Oh, he’s just trying to flirt.”
    “Oh, he’s just awkward,”
    “Oh, he didn’t mean anything by it.”
    “Oh he didn’t hear the hints as soon as he should have,”
    That’s sexual predator camouflage. Not every bit of too-old food is going to make you sick if you eat it, that doesn’t mean you should take the chance. Put another way: Sorry socially inept guys, but the predators have ruined it for you and your feelings aren’t more important than the safety and well-being of others.

  129. I’m probably a bit of an Aspie, though I lack a formal diagnosis. I’m horrified of being perceived as a creep, to the point that I’m deeply reluctant to talk to women if I don’t already know them, and that’s going to be particularly true at cons, moving forward. Sometimes women feel the need to send me a “go away” vibe, and I try to pick up on it as quickly as possible; I think it’s likely that I’m sometimes getting false positives. In general, it’s my impression that being asked out by undesirable men, and I tend to count myself among their number, is sufficiently traumatic to women that I pretty much never bother asking.

  130. I know lots of nerdy/geeky guys that are quite well-adjusted and fun, not creepy at all. They like women and respect them, and are liked and respected in turn. The key there is RESPECT. When they treat us like people, we treat them like people, and everyone is happy.

  131. “Let’s face it, geeky guys tend to the creepy.”

    Several people have already said that ‘awkward’ is not the same as ‘creepy’, and I have something to add to that. My brother is one of those awkward-but-not-creepy types. He doesn’t pick up conversation nuances easily, he has absolutely no idea when someone is flirting with him, he is equally bemused if someone is being aggressive toward him. He simply doesn’t pick up a lot of social cues.

    But he’s not creepy. And people like him. Lots. People acknowledge that he is awkward, but ‘he’s such a nice guy. You can count on him. He’s a good friend.’ Etc.

    Here’s why he’s not creepy: while he is definitely trying to figure out how to engage with other people in conversation, and he is trying to make friends, and he is not especially adept at either of those things, no one is weirded out because behind his awkward attempts at being friendly there is absolutely no sexual undertone. He is never trying to be friendly with the hope of getting into someone’s pants. And I think that’s the major difference between awkward and creepy. Awkward guys just aren’t sure how this whole social interaction thing works, and they’re like to figure it out so that other people will like them. Creepy guys aren’t sure how the social interaction thing works either, but they want to figure it out specifically for the purpose of getting laid. This is their primary motivation.

    And it shows. It always shows. I would argue that it shows even if you’re not the kind of creeper who invades personal space or explicitly talks sex all the time. Creepy guys are creepy even if the conversation they’re having would be completely mundane if transcribed. They’re creepy because I can tell every word out of their mouths is an attempt to have sex with me – and I can sense that.

    I think that human beings have a pretty good gauge for when someone is trying to have sex with them. Body language, hormones, sexual energy in the air – whatever, we’re good at picking up on it. And when someone opposite us is solely motivated to interact with us because they want to have sex, and they keep pushing that attempt forward too quickly and too aggressively, I think pretty much everyone finds that creepy.

    (I just spent five minutes trying to figure out why, if that’s the case, people occasionally spot one another across the room and happily interact with the sole intention of hooking up with one another, and I think that the difference is that casual hook-ups can see that their subtle vibe is being picked up and reciprocated by another person – which is to say, they are good at social cues – and they escalate that vibe according to the other person’s interest. A creepy dude cannot tell whether his subtle vibes are being picked up, and he pursues the contact regardless. I think that’s the difference, but I’d be interested in what other people have to say about that difference. It’s a little more vague than the creepy/awkward difference, to me.)

  132. Scalzi/Xilon,

    someone wrote to John asking how not to be a creeper.

    To me this indicates that being a creeper is a question of social inability that can be cured with advice rather than a case of a predator. Now John is saying that a creeper is defined by whether or not he makes women or men feel uncomfortable. So a creeper can be someone lacking in social skills or a predator who gives off bad vibes. But a predator who is more accomplished and does not give off bad vibes is not a creeper.

    I would say that a creeper is someone who makes women uncomfortable by not picking up obvious cues that there attention is unwelcome and so who continually pesters women (or any sexual target). If they do this and rape, I would call them a predator or rapist. Being creepy seems trivial compared to sexual assault.

    All I can say to this is that I think my definition is more useful than yours John, although perhaps I have misunderstood you.

    which leads me to your point Xilon,

    Women may have no way of distinguishing between creepers (i.e. socially inept men, in the sense of the word as I use it above) and rapists. I think that this reinforces my first post. If non-rapist, socially inept men can be mistaken for rapists by acting like creepers they have to learn to take care of their own interests by learning some social skills so that they don’t creep women out and get mistaken for rapists.

    I think that I have made too many posts in too little time already and I need to sleep, Good night all.

  133. I don’t know, John. In my rather extensive experience with “creepers,” they know exactly what they are doing and know the rules before they break them. I think here you may be reinforcing the myth of the well-intentioned but clueless creeper and giving ammunition to people who make excuses for them. These are good rules, but the people who break them do so because they don’t believe the rules apply to them, not because they simply don’t understand. I’ve had my boundaries pushed by men (and women) over the years, and can’t think of a single one that did so accidentally. Every single one relished the thrill of rulebreaking until they were shut down. I also just want to go on record here and say that the creeper quotient at a typical frat party is astronomical compared to sci fi conventions. Nerds are orders of magnitude less creepy than mundane men. (And that’s how they would say it, too, “orders of magnitude,” because nerds are awesome that way.) Science fiction conventions don’t have a special problem with creepy dudes hitting on women. They are just rather inept at dealing with it. All this talk of banning people from con membership doesn’t make me half as safe as it would to see guy stopped stone cold in his tracks at 2 AM and thrown out of the event immediately.

  134. Horace,

    It’s really tough. I’m female and heterosexual and although I have been the initiator a number of times, I have done so with relative confidence that I am at least not likely to scare or upset the person I’ve been approaching. I have a great deal of sympathy for people with my lack of social skills who also have the responsibility not to be frightening.

    I think… and I’m feeling my way here, and of course keep in mind that I am not all women… that there are different layers of being direct or indirect. My recommendation, “Want to join me for a bite to eat?” isn’t THAT direct, It’s not “I would like to have sexual intercourse with you, how do you feel about that?”, but it is direct about there being interest, even if it’s only for a meal. It’s not just latching onto the group I’m standing with and kind of accompanying us to lunch without being asked, as if I’m not going to notice. It allows me to say no, but it does it in the face-saving way that indirectness is intended for, because all I’ve said no to is lunch, after all. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with looking for indirect positive cues, but the guys who fall into the creeper category aren’t actually doing that, they’re taking advantage of the lack of direct negative cues which is an entirely different thing. Providing the other person with an easy opportunity to give you a mild but direct negative, like turning down a lunch offer, means you’re not content to operate in a vacuum because at least it’s not a no. It means you’re really hoping for an enthusiastic yes, and if you don’t get one, you’re fine to move on and find another lunch partner, which bespeaks a degree of respect for both yourself and the other person that’s attractive. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

    Once I was at a big event with two guys who had each expressed some interest in me. There was a meal being served, and I took a seat at a table with multiple seats available. I noticed one of the guys sort of hovering around me in my peripheral vision, maybe trying to catch my eye and see if I motioned him to a seat, I don’t know? I remember thinking something like, “Oh, c’mon now, it’s not eighth grade here.” At about that moment, the other person saw me sitting by myself, gave me a friendly smile, and walked right over to me and asked if the seat next to me was taken. Reader, I married him.

  135. Awkward guys just aren’t sure how this whole social interaction thing works, and they’re like to figure it out so that other people will like them. Creepy guys aren’t sure how the social interaction thing works either, but they want to figure it out specifically for the purpose of getting laid. This is their primary motivation.

    I think this about nails the distinction between “awkward” and “creepy” – someone who is awkward is likely going to be so regardless of whether or not one is interacting with anyone, regardless of gender. Awkward people are generally trying to find a balance between their comfort and the comfort levels of others so that everyone is happy. Someone who is creepy, however, is going to come off that way because the creep in question is specifically targeting a particular person or kind of person. Creeps prioritize their wants over the comfort levels of others and aren’t going to care if they’re making others uncomfortable because hey, it’s all about THEM.

  136. Horace:

    “All I can say to this is that I think my definition is more useful than yours John”

    It’s not, outside of the special case of you wanting to define it in a particular way in order to make a point you want to make, which is not the same point I wanted to make, by all indications.

    Again: You’re entirely free to write your own piece using your own definition, for your own aims. But complaining that the piece I’ve written doesn’t address the points you think it should make using a definition I didn’t use and don’t particularly agree with, doesn’t seem to be an especially fruitful course of action.

    Catherine Shafer:

    “I think here you may be reinforcing the myth of the well-intentioned but clueless creeper and giving ammunition to people who make excuses for them.”

    Well, except for the part where I say, “Now, it’s possible you may also be socially awkward, or have trouble reading other people’s emotions or intentions, or whatever. This is your own problem to solve, not anyone else’s. It is not an excuse or justification to creep on other people. If you or other people use it that way, you’ve failed basic human decency.” Which pretty explicitly is the opposite of that.

  137. From the perspective of the “object,” the difference between some guy who’s creepy because he doesn’t understand that you’re not comfortable and some guy who’s creepy because he gets off on your discomfort isn’t particularly clear. That first guy isn’t overly likely to commit assault. The second guy is.

    It’s so not my job to judge whether someone is actually planning to assault me just because he’s acting like he doesn’t respect my boundaries. So I’m going to go with John’s definition here. Creepy behavior can be unintentional and well-meaning or intentionally predatory or anywhere in between. Creating distinctions that can’t be distinguished in the moment? That’s not helpful. I’d go so far as to say it’s actually harmful.

  138. Horace, I re-posted the link because I think it’s relevant to the broader discussion about ‘creeping’ as well; the article explores how people say ‘no’ in different situations.

    Your comments seem to suggest that you see ‘creeping’ as a communication problem – not a misinterpretation, but a slowness to perceive indirect or subtle cues that indicate a rejection of contact (“In the case of creepiness I think that we are talking about the minority of men who do not hear these hints as soon as they should“). The point made in that article is that most people *do* perceive and understand these kinds of cues, and as many commenters have already noted, ‘creeping’ behaviours, like unasked-for touching or persistent attempts to initiate contact with someone who is signalling that they don’t want that contact, don’t seem to reflect how ‘socially awkward’ people tend to act in social settings (it certainly hasn’t been my experience, anyway, for what that’s worth).

    This is also anecdotal, but at least in the experience that I had with a ‘creeper’, it was really, really obvious that he heard and understood that I was telling him I didn’t want to engage, because his response was to try to *argue* with my statements.

  139. I’m horrified of being perceived as a creep, to the point that I’m deeply reluctant to talk to women if I don’t already know them, and that’s going to be particularly true at cons, moving forward.

    This.

    I’m terrified of presenting creeper behaviours without knowing I am doing so, and I’m actually a little scared of saying so because of the large number of people in this thread who’ve said that every creepy behaviour is the deliberate manifestation of malice by a creeper.

  140. Tessuraea:

    “Creepy behavior can be unintentional and well-meaning or intentionally predatory or anywhere in between.”

    This is what I was trying to say before with my woefully ambiguous sarcasm. Given that this is a frequent and regular encounter for women, even if only 15% (if only?!) of the instances are at the behest of the genuinely creepy, those numbers stack up so quickly it’s alarming. And, given the risk/reward for teaching in the moment, I can’t imagine a realistic point of view founded on the person being creeped on being transformed into the heroic selfless teacher of the clueless/sexual assaulters.

    This is a very real danger that is notoriously passively enabled in our culture. I think that anything that makes people more…informed…or put more thinking into what is a reasonable expectation of the parcipants in this scenario is good. It makes it harder to passively enable this creeping behavior.

  141. Since creeper behavior is in the eye of the beholder, anyone can be an unwitting creeper, and the only absolutely certain way of avoiding being perceived as a creep is to avoid all social contact. John’s tips may help, but they can’t be 100% effective.

  142. 49th,

    It’s not that every creepy behavior is the deliberate manifestation of malice by a creeper, its just that the person feeling creeped out can’t be expected to distinguish. I’m sure plenty of people talk to women very successfully every day at these cons and everywhere else without making them feel creeped out. Listen to what some of the women in this thread are saying: It’s creepy when they think you’re hunting them for sex. Talk to women to talk to them, not to try and pick them up, then you probably won’t have any problem at all. If you absolutely must try to gauge your chances with a women don’t be persistent. I’m sure even polite hitting on or flirtation will be quickly forgotten/forgiven if you don’t persist when it’s obvious it’s unwelcome. And if things are going all downhill? Follow rules 5-10 above and go about the rest of your day.

  143. Being female and a RPG player throughout high school (back when “RPG” meant face to face around a table, and very little else), I carefully cultivated a number of “i’m just one of the guys” body language / behavior patterns and speech stylings, specifically to be able to deal with any number of clueless gamer boys without ever giving them any ideas about me at all. Oddly enough, that means that the creepers I occasionally got latched onto were almost never remotely sexual, but they wanted to talk to the gamer person because I “would obviously like to hear (and will understand) everything about their gaming character/experience/world ever.”

    However, when it does turn into being hit on (or when I am hit on by another woman), I found that most of the time IF THE PERSON ISN’T a real predator, or you’re not sure, and you don’t want to hurt their feelings, a phrase like “I really appreciate the compliment, but I’m honestly not looking right now.” (or, for women, “…but it’s just not my thing”) In a friendly and neutral *but very definite* tone will end it, but not be hurtful. That is one way to sort out many of those who just don’t get it from those who are just going to push.

    If someone is genuinely interested in me as a person and wants to pursue, a right answer for him would then be “Maybe we can chat again sometime.” which leaves the door open for interaction away from the convention/gaming table/etc., under less chaotic and pressurized circumstances – but at the same time does not include any pressure.

    As to your article – very very good. Don’t underestimate the power of providing a rules structure (again, “hangs with gamers” here) that is very clear. It may not be 100% useful for 100% of the people – but the folks who WANT to learn, and NEED to learn, need a guide to learn from.

  144. I’m genderfluid, bio-male. I’m told I’m attractive as a female. That’d be nice, I’m not especially fond of mirrors, so I don’t tend to judge my own appearance (also, fear of being vain, has I). But the attractiveness statement does get reenforced by the creeping I am targeted by (We’ll ignore the outright violence as that’s [sort of] entirely a different subject). No, you’ve no right to touch me, no right to corner me, no right to even attempt to monopolize my time, attention, or interest. I’ll direct these as I please. NOTHING anyone says, at any time, for any reason, acts as justification. EVER. If you want to create a justification, please kindly ____ off in any direction away from me. Into traffic would be nice. Try not to get it by someone without good insurance.

    If you’ve got aspergers, I’m sorry. I’ve spent plenty of time around this, I’m adept at handling it, you’ll be treated with respect, but dealt with regardless. I am not your keeper, and don’t have time to be anyway. I wish you the best, but I’m not gonna coddle you. Speak respectfully and clearly, yes, but you’ll live if I just walk away when nothing I try works. If what I try works, awesome. Maybe we can even be friends. That’d be keen. But I’ve done my bit for Ghu and Country, and still am. Not even a disease can entitle a person to my time. (Fully aware most would never say they are around here, but I’ve encountered this as an excuse for untenable behavior before, and it’s just not my duty.)

    Maybe I’ve seen too much violence, maybe I’m just not as good at being still at heart as I’d like. Regardless, I reject any attempt to excuse behavior of a capable adult. And anyone who can argue why they -totally- aren’t and there’s a special reason for them, probably is fully capable, and trying to cover their ass.

    I think I and many others have simply had ENOUGH. That is, to say, any of this crap. When you act as if you have claim over another person, or force your self into their time, you’re being awful and irritating. At best. This shouldn’t be a discussion or a debate or even a question. This is MY space, MY person, MY worth. You’ve no acceptable clause to breach that. You have every right to be annoyed if I blow you off. Be my guest. Seeing as I’ll be walking away, you certainly won’t be upsetting me. But I have every right to disengage from a person I don’t know at any time. With or without warning.

    I can FEEL someone getting ready to ype about how rude that is.

    Pop those keys off your keyboard right now and suck on ’em. “Rude” and “Infringing on my person” are completely different ballgames, and one is an acceptable response to the other, but not the other way around. When I encounter a creeper, I don’t start rude, but I will finish that way if need be. Then I’ll probably treat myself to something unhealthy and enjoy my event. Because my behavior means I do not lack for mutually respectful social partners. That, perhaps, says something.

  145. The responses of “since I cannot achieve PERFECTION in lack of creepiness I must eschew all human contact” with the secondary implication of “as you awful people clearly want me to” makes me wonder if people respond like that to all other advice on ways to reduce the chance of erring in some manner.

    “These tips on vocabulary memorization won’t implant all of the words of French into my brain permanently and without error. I guess I’d better give up on learning foreign languages.”

    “Defensive driving? It’d still be possible for me to have an accident! I’ll just stay at home. In the dark. Forever.”

    “All this information on how to make a better smoothie could still result in me offering a smoothie to someone who’s lactose intolerant. You must want me to stop all contact with beverages and die of dehydration.”

    This is a starter guide. It gives some useful guidelines. Many of them are good, useful guidelines. But there is no guide on heaven or earth for interaction with other human beings that will provide completely one hundred percent positive successful interactions under all circumstances. If there were, we’d all be using the damn thing. Until then… good advice is a useful thing.

  146. Are other men out there really so worried they’re going to come off as creepers? Seriously people…

    I can’t help but thinking what’s really being said here is “I want to get laid and go on dates and have pretty girls pay attention to me, but I don’t know how!”

    And what’s being said back is: “Maybe you need to find a better reason to engage with other people than your sex drive and ego.”

    But the people in the first group just can’t seem to understand that perspective.

  147. This might not be the most salient comment (I only read the first half of the comments), but I found it interesting the #4 links strongly with Kant’s assertion (in his Ethics) that we should treat people always as an end unto themselves and never as a mere means. This statement works well with the other ‘rules’ as well. Always focus on the agency of the person you are interested in.

    As a woman who had had numerous creepy run-ins, both of the innocent unaware sort and the overtly excercising power over another person sort, I think it is fair to say that these two things feel distinctly different. The first will most often inspire unease, agitation, discomfort but the latter frequently causes fear and anxiety.

    Yashar Ali wrote a post on The Current Conscience that links to these ideas as well; he’s writing specifically about undermining feelings in the context of a relationship, but I find it applicable across genders and across social contexts.

    http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-“crazy”/

  148. Thank you, John Scalzi!

    I’m a not-so-geek-culture woman who married a dyed-in-the-wool geek man. Seriously, the man could run a game of D&D in his sleep. And quite possibly has. Because of this, I have been around his geeky friends, most of whom are nice, but there always seems to be That Guy. ALWAYS. In our case, he’d been part of the group for several years, and decided that because his friends were pairing off and getting married, that gave him the right to hit on his friends’ wives. Until I came along, the wives and girlfriends just put up with him, because they were told by the rest of the group, “Oh, that’s just the way he is, he’s harmless and doesn’t mean anything by it.”

    That worked out until I came along. The other women wouldn’t say anything because the guys wouldn’t back them up or didn’t care, or didn’t think that Assbag McCreeper was a threat. When he tried it on with me, and by that I mean when he decided to corner me in my kitchen (dude….there are SHARP OBJECTS IN HERE) and grope me, he didn’t get the reaction he’d come to expect, which was fear, and an unwillingness to say or do anything. No, he got me reaching behind me, grabbing a kitchen knife, and yelling for my husband to come get this asshole away from me. I held up my knife and told him to get the fuck out of my house, or I would kill him. Assbag decided that he was going to tell me I couldn’t talk to him that way, he’d been part of the group longer than me, and he told my husband to control his woman. My husband looked at him in utter disgust, and said, “Dude, you should probably run while you have the chance. I won’t ‘control’ her, and I’m not going to hold her back.” That was the point where the other guys finally figured out that yes, he was a creeper, and that he was getting particularly bold….and needed to no longer be a part of the group.

    The point is, until these creepers are told, by the men around them, that their behavior is unacceptable, they will continue on as they have been. It’s easy for them to ignore what we women say, after all, we’re not really human, we exist solely as sex objects for their gratification, and if we resist, that just makes it more fun. I don’t believe at all that it’s due to being on the autism spectrum, or because they’re socially awkward, or any of that nonsense with nine out of ten creepers. No, it’s due to never being told to knock that shit off, because here in Polite Society Land, women are actually people, and yes, they do have the right to tell you to fuck off. Until the men are willing to say, “This is socially unacceptable behavior, and it’s not okay to dehumanize someone because they are not the same gender as you are, and thus subject them to verbal harassment, and unwanted physical touching leading up to and including sexual assault,” this will continue to be the norm.

  149. tessuraea says: August 9, 2012 at 9:37 pm (* story about accindentily maybe being a little creepy*)
    There is this strange place, where your identical action will be perceived differently by different strangers. Some will not even notice, some will be put off, some will jump right in.

    I have noticed with some people who have had bag events in the their past are more likely to be put off. This leads to the the whole trigger thing. (I lived with a PTSD sufferer recently and got to learn way too much on the subject.) Triggers create an almost impossible situation for the rest of us. You tossed a hat. Which might have set off a trigger. But there is no way in the universe to prevent all of them. So what are we to do?

    For people who have been victims, even accidently entering their space can trigger.
    It is easy enough to back off when warned off. But other things become impossible to control. Other than leaving when asked. Which is the easiest thing in the world to do.

    A Mediated Life says: August 9, 2012 at 9:54 pm
    “People who do want to get hit on will go to spaces or events built around that sort of thing. Everyone else should be considered off limits.”

    Except that the problem with this is that the list of acceptable is different for everyone. From an early age, we met and dated people at school, friends of friends and then work. In the olden days, there were singles mixers.

    So wouldnt it be easier to list the places where hitting on was forbidden? Church, funerals and bathrooms?

    tessuraea says: August 9, 2012 at 10:38 pm
    Actually, it kind of stands by itself. If you’re a man, and you think it’s ridiculous that you’re read as creepy for doing innocent things, and you blame the women in question and not, say, the fact that so many of us are raped and sexually assaulted by men? Well, then, you probably are creepy.

    This, this and more THIS! If you really think that you should defend what you have done, then you are already wrong.

    to Sclazi’s replies:
    It is amazing and amusing watching your verbal kung fu in action.

  150. Hey, if you’re worried about being a creeper, and willing to admit it, there are two things that are most likely to me: Either you A: Aren’t a creeper, just a bit awkward, and I was too! Then I spent a LOT of time awkwardly socializing, apologizing a LOT, and LEARNED*. Now I’m not awkward! Success isn’t guaranteed, but the above bullet points (bullet paragraphs?) are a great starting point and I wish you great luck! Hopefully, you’ll find people less aggravated by harassment than I -_-;; OR B: You’re a creeper who wants to play the innocent victim of society pity card. In which case, You bore me.

    If the answer is A: Then DON’T FEEL BAD! There’s hope and there’s Fendom, and combined, life can be awesome! <3

    *Socialize with non-geeks. About non-sci-fi/fantasy things, if you can! You'll broaden your scope and learn much about how society works outside our magical realm (I say that without sarcasm-I ADORE Sci-Fi/Fantasy with a great loving passion!)

  151. IMHO, creep/creeper/creepy cover way too much ground to be useful: Jared Loughner has been described as creepy. “He was creepy” might just mean you felt his otherwise inoffensive attention was unwanted, or it could mean he said he wanted to build furniture out of bones while staring at your arm.

    This I think leads to an increased fear or anxiety of stumbling into the creep zone, because that is such a vague term that covers a huge range of misbehavior.

    Maybe when discussing creeps we need a scale with gradations, DEFCREEP 1 (older guy innocuously flirts with woman who isn’t interested, but doesn’t persist) through DEFCREEP 9 (bone-chair)

  152. If someone’s bothering me, and I say “Please stop, you’re making me uncomfortable,” and they ask “Why?” it might be useful to explain.

    @Jennifer Davis Ewing: But you DID just explain. “Because it’s making me uncomfortable” is an explanation. I am baffled by the idea that it’s not OK to just tell somebody that you don’t like what they’re doing and you would like them to stop, but must then set aside whatever you were doing to offer them an explanation (justification, let’s face it) for why you did not find their conduct thrilling.

    “How else are they going to learn”? Well, hey, you know, even creepers have friends, and social circles, and access to the Internet, which is full of places (like, say, Captain Awkward) where one can seek advice and input on why strangers are reacting to one’s perfectly well-meant random hair-petting with “Please stop, you’re making me uncomfortable.”

    Re the whole “socially awkward guys are nerds can’t help but seem creepy” bullshit: It is bullshit. Ditto “oh, but what about Aspies”, which has already been deconstructed at a link posted above in this thread, and written by someone who is an Aspie. People who are socially awkward have trouble making small talk. They may find it difficult to avoid talking about the Mars landing well past the point where everybody is glazed. They may spend the entire party standing in a corner, terrified that nobody will like them. What they are not is, so stupid and oblivious that they are incapable of understanding “no” or “please stop” or “do not give lingering caresses to strangers”.

    Also, as has been noted until we are blue in the face, creepers who touch and lean in and corner know perfectly goddamn well what they are doing. The whole point of uninvited hugs and touches is to push past someone’s boundaries in a way that is difficult for them to stop. (That’s why PUA how-tos suggest this technique, after all.) The goal of physically boxing someone in is to make it difficult for them to remove themselves from your presence.

  153. Particularly in the milieu of sci fi conventions/fantasy events/ any sort of role-playing opportunities, you find a lot of people who haven’t matured socially – people who want to live in fantasy and who want things to be like books.

    May I very clearly point out – these events do not CAUSE this behavior. They ATTRACT people who are looking for what they perceive as an outlet.

    What Jeff says about the disconnect in communication between the “wannagetlaids” and the “lets have a conversations” is a clear step up the maturity ladder. wannagetlaids (regardless of their age) are basically teens who can’t (or choose not to) think past their hormones. You can’t FORCE them to. You can sometimes encourage them to, or show them by example the benefits of taking that step. A lot of them stubbornly refuse to “grow up”.

    Still not an excuse.

  154. I want to add a note, as a person who has attended conventions for over 20 years as a party goer, a fan, a cosplayer, a sales person, and a professional: The person behind the booth is not the merchandise.

    Just because there is an attractive person hanging around at a booth in the exhibit hall does not mean they were hired for the sole purpose of you awkwardly staring at them and making sexual innuendos and/or criticizing their appearance*. Chances are, they are working at that booth, doing retail or product demonstrations, and your uncomfortable attempts at flirting are taking away their time and attention from that work. They are polite as they can be with you *because they are in a public position, attempting to do business*. If you want them to call you after the show, leave a card; don’t expect anything though. “Industry types” often have busy schedules during conventions; they’re unlikely to go to dinner with a stranger out of the blue when they have VIP passes to several parties, a meeting with people who could help their career, and two long-lost classmates in town. Who knows, you MIGHT rate an ice cream cone or something if they aren’t monogamously married; stranger things have happened. But don’t fritter away the time they or their bosses spent getting them there to sell product in; that kind of entitlement is not a turn on to anyone, no matter how flattering you think your attention is.

    [Further, never guess a person’s profession or involvement in something by their appearance; that “cute chick in the costume” or “hot guy with strange hair” might be just a sales person but they also might be the company’s art director, a writer, the owner, etc; assuming someone is stupid, vacuous, or just there for your pleasure because they are “attractive”/”interesting” is godawfully shallow]

    *Don’t ask me, I’ve never clearly understood the desire to insult a complete stranger to their face.

  155. Listen to what some of the women in this thread are saying: It’s creepy when they think you’re hunting them for sex, even when you’re not and have abandoned trying.

    Added phrase for context. This isn’t “It goes badly when I hit on women at cons and I wish it didn’t”, Jeff, and to paraphrase the host, it feels like you’re giving me an answer to the post you wish I’d written and not the one I actually did. The one I actually did write is “I have, whether it is rational or not, a paralyzing fear that I might come off as predatory and sexual and unwelcome, and as such am trying to abandon flirting altogether and treat everyone as a potential platonic friend and nobody as a potential romantic interest. It scares me that sometimes this still isn’t enough and I don’t know what to do about it.” Please don’t decide on my behalf that I’m just a horndog who won’t admit he’s only in it for the poontang.

  156. katyisbutthurt says: August 10, 2012 at 12:21 am
    The point is, until these creepers are told, by the men around them, that their behavior is unacceptable, they will continue on as they have been.

    I have been moving more and more in this direction the last couple of years. Tacit acceptance allows these people to continue. We would step in to stop an adult from beating a child, but we wont step in to stop an adult from verbally assaulting someone? Yes, there are lines and it is dangerous out there. But it is pretty easy to ask the victim: “Are you ok?” and “Do you need some help?”

  157. @Jeff Xilon: No, I think it’s plain old selfish dramatic tantrums. I mean, we’ve all seen (or, er, been) moody teenagers doing this, right? Dad says hey, you know it’s garbage-collection night, could you please take a break from the Diablo III marathon and take the trash out – “GOD, DAD, WHY DO I ALWAYS HAVE TO DO ALL THE WORK AROUND HERE, YOU NEVER WANT ME TO HAVE ANY FUN” *stomp stomp stomp*. Or mom explains that, sorry, you’re only fifteen and it’s really not okay for you to go to that unsupervised party with college boys and probably alcohol and nobody’s parents are home, “MOM why do you want to ruin my social life and you think I’m a child, so maybe I just won’t ever leave the house again in my whole life” *doorslam*.

    Same damn thing: if you suggest that I behave in a reasonable way that takes anyone else’s needs into account, I’m going to turn up the drama setting to eleven, pretend that you asked me to do something horrible and unfair, and cry to the uncaring heavens that I might as well never get within ten ells of doing anything like what I want to do, ever ever.

    This is a little understandable in teenagers, who are after all in beta-stress-test mode for adulthood. In actual adults, it’s just bullshit.

  158. Excellent piece, John.

    As the mother of a (now adult) autistic man, with more than two decades of experience with people on the spectrum and with other developmental neuro-non-typical stuff…these people are instantly recognizable if you’re familiar with either. Creepers are different. If it is a diagnosable condition, it’s not autism or Asperger’s or Down Syndrome. Socially awkward (the person who wants to tell you endlessly every detail of a book he read, or list every tiny error in something you wrote) is not the same as creeper, and the true socially awkward–though perhaps being clingy with a group–will go away sad (but go away) if told “No, we have reservations for dinner, for this many and no more. Sorry.” The creeper is like the person who I found waiting outside my hotel room at one convention, the one who came up behind people and put his hands over their eyes. The creeper gets too close, intrudes on conversations when not invited, won’t go away, pouts and whines if corrected, shows every sign of being a control-freak.

    At any rate, thanks for this blog post. Well said.

  159. “Please don’t decide on my behalf that I’m just a horndog who won’t admit he’s only in it for the poontang.”

    This.

  160. The one I actually did write is “I have, whether it is rational or not, a paralyzing fear that I might come off as predatory and sexual and unwelcome, and as such am trying to abandon flirting altogether and treat everyone as a potential platonic friend and nobody as a potential romantic interest. It scares me that sometimes this still isn’t enough and I don’t know what to do about it.”

    @49th: You kinda answered your own question there. When that fear is paralyzing, you can’t figure out anything that would help to act in a way that doesn’t make you fearful and you don’t know what to do about it, the fear is the problem.

    I don’t in any way say that as a criticism. Nor do I mean that you should just, like, stop being afraid. But I do think you need to figure out why you have this paralyzing, irrational fear. I’m guessing, and of course only you know if this is the case, that you are afraid you lack the social skills to interact in a non-creepy way, you have trouble reading signals that will tell you “This person is being creeped out”, and you are afraid there will be dire consequences if you make a mistake. Yes?

    It’s really pretty easy to avoid being non-creepy. The whole original post above was about ways to avoid creeping. If you, despite being well-intentioned, find that you have creeped someone, the remedy is very simple: apologize briefly and then leave them alone.

    If you’re still paralyzed by fear, then seriously? Talk to friends and people who know you well. They are the ones who are able to say “Takashi, you’re a great dude, but you lean in too close when you talk to women.” Or “No, it’s perfectly fine that you shook hands with her; that wasn’t creepy at all.” If your fear is friend-proof then that is time to talk to a professional (therapist, say) who can work with you on this. Running away form simple social interactions because you are terrified even basic social guidelines will fail you then, genuinely, there is a bigger problem than having Charisma as your dump stat and you should find out what that is.

  161. 49th,
    Ok, I apologize for any assumptions I made.
    I get fear, and I think your last post there had a really important conditional on your part, “[You] have, whether it is rational or not, a paralyzing fear…” Ok. Personally, I’d say that the fear is irrational. I don’t say that as an insult or put down in any way! I’ve suffered from some sevre irrational fears myself. Not this particular one, but fear is fear.
    I don’t know what anyone can say to you about that other than, if you’re really not doing anything malicious I’m sure most people will get that and if they don’t, then try to move on without worry. I really think “don’t persist” is an important definer here. If you do accidentally upset someone and immediately back off, and just let it go probably no serious harm to your image or reputation will ensue. Again, sorry for the offense and know my second post about men worried about being creepers was not directed at you in specific, but at many people in general both in this particular conversation and in the one that’s been going on in the community at large.

  162. @49th – Mythago, the original piece and Jeff have some valuable input. I’d add emphasis to the “back off” portion. If you do cause offense, don’t let your fear complicate the offense by causing you to persist in ‘fixing it’ in any way other than vacating the space.

  163. I can attest that these rules work. And it’s important to remember that they apply to non-sexual situations too. I once accidentally boxed in an agent at a Con – she said something to me, my brain went “OMG! AGENT I want to represent me” and I stood there talking to her, blocking her path out of the room. Fortunately, a lightbulb went off because she got that ‘eek’ look in her eyes and I stepped aside, saying “I just realized I’m blocking your path. I am so sorry.” Then I made sure I didn’t appear to be following her out of the room. The upside? When we met again a year later at another event she remembered me as “that woman who made the feminist comments” not “stalkery writer.” We had a very pleasant conversation and she gave me some good professional advice.

    As for Mark who said that you don’t have a right to expect to be safe at a Con – No. You have every right to expect and demand safety. Period. Where ever you are, but especially at a Con. Cons are, ideally, gatherings of like minded people who may be isolated in their likes and dislikes in their daily life. When I go to a con it’s like homecoming. We should make our fellow con-goers especially safe.

  164. I present my opinion respectfully: I don’t think using the term “creeper” or the verb “to creep,” whether a definition is offered or not, takes us in any productive direction.

    We have more useful definitions for inappropriate and undesirable behavior, including but not limited to: stalking, sexual assault, sexual harassment, (non-sexual) assault and harassment, objectification, All people have the right to not be subject to any of these things. No one has the right to never be approached by an individual he or she finds unappealing. Let me be clear that I am NOT suggesting that represents the majority of cases labeled “creeping,” and I am NOT suggesting that represents the recent high-publicity events that may have instigated this discussion. I realize this is the Internet, but I would appreciate if anyone who wants to yell at me (and there will likely be some of you) disagree with what I am actually saying and not with a straw man of their own creation.

    I believe there exists an onus on the victim of “creeping” to make clear, just once, as briefly as desired but in no uncertain terms, that the approach is unwanted. This must be done verbally (or, if the “creeper” is deaf or does not speak English, in another clear way) so that the “creeper” is made aware. No explanation is needed, nor apology. “Please go away” is sufficient, as are “Stop,” “I don’t want to talk to you,” “Leave me alone,” or any variation thereof.

    After that, any further approach may fairly be labeled as harassment, sexual or otherwise, and any touching as assaults, sexual or otherwise, which are much more clearly defined.

    I’m sorry, but I do not believe the lack of eye contact approach is sufficient, nor the turning away, nor the ignoring in favor of friends. This is discrimination, in my mind, against those without the social skills to recognize those signals. YES, those people represent a small minority of the populace, that is absolutely true. But so do people in wheelchairs, and we are still legally required to build ramps. (For the record, I think that’s a good thing).

    Don’t get me wrong – I am not denying that there are cases where it is clear to all involved that an individual absolutely DOES understand eye-rolling, or whatever other non-verbal signal. I realize that constitutes the majority of these incidents, and I am NOT defending those individuals or suggesting their targets are obligated to speak with them. I realize men (predominantly) often play on the baggage society has imposed on women (predominantly) to be agreeable and polite at all times, and I am not defending that behavior.

    What motivates my statement here is that, sometimes though perhaps not often, the individual who sees him or herself as being “creeped” may lack some social skills, and may think he or she has a right to never come in contact with any person he or she sees as unattractive or otherwise disagreeable. I refuse to find anything transgressive (and I will reiterate that I am NOT suggesting this represents anything resembling a majority of cases, so please note that in your angry reply) in one person very politely approaching another stranger to attempt a conversation, and lingering for a bit if they find the other person is occupied or has perhaps not noticed them. When I was young we called this “lurking,” but nowadays many call it “creeping.”

    The very instant it is clear and unambiguous that the lurker/creeper knows they are unwelcome (whether through their obvious reception of nonverbal signals, or a simple and clear statement to that fact), they are 100% guilty of “creeping,” though I still prefer “stalking,” as it is has a clearer shared definition.

    So that’s my take. Feel free to commence hostility – or, I suppose, you could all agree that my opinion is well considered and seems fair. Which would be a first for me on the Internet.

  165. Also, really, somebody who on being told “Please stop” stops what they’ve been doing looks genuinely embarrassed, says “Oh geez, I’m sorry,” and then quietly exits the scene? Almost certainly not a creeper.

    To bring up Hershele Ostropoler’s excellent metaphor from the other thread: If you’re stepping on my foot, and I tell you to get off my foot, you say “Sorry, my bad!” and stop stepping on my foot, then I am going to figure it was an accident. Even though my foot hurts, it’s clear you didn’t mean to step on it, and you apologized sincerely and stopped doing it. Accidents and clumsiness happen, no biggie.

    Waaaay different than the foot-stepper who continues to stand there while asking “But why do you want me to get off your foot?” or who tells me it’s my fault for having such step-on-able feet or who seems to be stepping on rather a lot of feet at this party, some feet more than once. That dude? That dude is a doucheloaf.

  166. Peter Cibulskis:

    I have noticed with some people who have had bag events in the their past are more likely to be put off. This leads to the the whole trigger thing. (I lived with a PTSD sufferer recently and got to learn way too much on the subject.) Triggers create an almost impossible situation for the rest of us. You tossed a hat. Which might have set off a trigger. But there is no way in the universe to prevent all of them. So what are we to do?

    For people who have been victims, even accidently entering their space can trigger.
    It is easy enough to back off when warned off. But other things become impossible to control. Other than leaving when asked. Which is the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Yeah, the point of telling the story was that from my perspective, I was genuinely not doing anything wrong. This woman has gay friends (I’m sorta dating one of them now, heh) and met me at an event that was lgbt-friendly. I wasn’t flirting intentionally, I was just trying to smile. The hat – well, I’d already shared it with other people. Part of the fun of wearing a fedora to something like that is getting to let other people play with it.

    So from where I stood? We’d had a conversation, which she initiated, and then she acted like my smiles were unwelcome, and I didn’t understand why. It sucked.

    But really – that doesn’t matter, and it didn’t matter in the moment, because my oh-gods-I’m-making-someone-uncomfortable-ick was WAY more of a big deal than my hey-what-the-hell-I’m-nice reaction. I would like everyone to have that same response; if someone doesn’t want to talk to you, you sit on your own feelings of “but I’m NICE!” and give them space. Period.

    Plus, and this is something all the people worried about unintentional creepy should really pay attention to: we’re friendly acquaintances now. If you pay attention to someone’s “go away” signals and actually go away, that person may actually decide hey, you didn’t mean to be pushy. If you’re genuinely a decent person, the best way to show that is to respect people’s boundaries. Sometimes, then, the people in question end up being your friends.

    Of course, if you’re just pretending to be respectful to get laid, you’re still a creep.

  167. Sorry, I know I already went on too long, but one more thing:

    I do think a statement by, let’s say, con organizers that the con is a safe space, and there is zero tolerance for any kind of harassment DOES qualify as the clear and unambiguous statement. It doesn’t always have to come from the “target.”

    That’s not to say that good-looking boy or girl at the con would NEVER appreciate you going over to hit on him or her… but if you already know you’re on thin ice, and one strike is all it takes? Just don’t do it, brah. If you simply MUST, then politely hand that person a card with your e-mail or phone number on it, say “I’d really like to speak more in another setting,” and walk directly away. Then leave that person alone for the rest of the con (and forever after!) unless they contact you.

  168. What jill said at 5:04 reminds me of another good general rule, which is that you should not assume someone’s attitude, mood, or apparent reaction to you has a whole lot to do with you.

    For instance, if someone you don’t know is grinning when they come out of a hall costume parade or off a stage, or around a corner or whatever, and happens to meet your eye, that grin should not necessarily be taken as a personal reaction to you — they are quite possibly high on the moment, or just got a promotion, or fell in love with someone else — you can’t know. Return the smile if you like, to let them know you take joy in their happiness, but try not to make assumptions that would otherwise guide you to view their expression as an invitation to touch them, make sexual innuendos, or any of those other behaviors John was talking about above. If you converse with them, and they initiate such things, yay, green light means “go”. But a shared smile alone is not an invitation. I know people who avoid smiling at strangers because of this risk, which is really a bummer when you have joy inside that wants to get out.

    Similarly, of course, if someone is glowering, they might not be reacting to you. They might have a headache, they might have just had a bad moment with someone else, etc. Don’t take it personally and decide to kvetch that they’re over-reacting to your innocent behavior — if they are having a bad moment, it is an ESPECIALLY bad time to try to make everything about you. Everything isn’t about you. Just give them space and time.

  169. You know, there’s another thing to all this. If you are innocent of any malicious intention, and the other person is upset by you, either because you’ve unknowingly set off a trigger for them or they themselves have poor social skills it still comes back to just back off. I mean, if the other person is the problem why would you want to engage further with them? There are a lot of people in the world and if you really think the problem lies with the other person then why wouldn’t you want to find someone else to spend your time with? If you display maturity and respect in your handling the situation others aren’t going to judge you badly even if the one person does. And again, if they do then perhaps these are not people you want to be spending your time on anyway.

  170. Chris:

    “I believe there exists an onus on the victim of ‘creeping’ to make clear, just once, as briefly as desired but in no uncertain terms, that the approach is unwanted.”

    And you’d be wrong about that. One, “onus” is a pretty strong word — it’s an obligation or duty. No one should be obliged to have to deal with someone who is making them uncomfortable in any way other than to have the right to avoid them. Requiring someone to confront the person who is causing them stress and possibly even fear in order to have their stress or fear officially validated is a bullshit maneuver. You may not think so, but, oddly enough, it’s not about you.

    “I refuse to find anything transgressive (and I will reiterate that I am NOT suggesting this represents anything resembling a majority of cases, so please note that in your angry reply) in one person very politely approaching another stranger to attempt a conversation, and lingering for a bit if they find the other person is occupied or has perhaps not noticed them.”

    Did you go through the previous comments here, Chris? This sort of thing has been already pretty well knocked down. Please go read through thread.

    “Feel free to commence hostility – or, I suppose, you could all agree that my opinion is well considered and seems fair.”

    Or there’s a third option, which is to tell you in a non-hostile fashion that your opinion isn’t a particularly useful one. There are other options, too, but that’s the one I’m going to go with.

    I’ll also note that the “Feel free to commence hostility” rhetorical maneuver is strictly amateur hour, and you’d be advised not to do it again here. It makes you look a little silly.

  171. In Michigan, cons do frequently have items on the program that include tips on how to be social without being creepy. Titles of such items often resemble “Flirting 101” but are sometimes more specific. If you’re going to a con and would like them to offer such a thing, contact them about it. I’ve been on such panels multiple times. Once even with John’s wife, Krissy. :)

    One of my favorite examples to use on such occasions is a member of our community named Chuck. Chuck is a hug person, which has some potential to make him creepy. Yet he is also brilliant at offering hugs without intimidating people or creeping people out. He does this in part by standing in his own space, and leaning *backward* a little when saying something like “Can I offer you a hug?” –Speaking without moving toward them, without getting in their personal space, and in a way that makes it clear it is absolutely all right if they do not share his inclination to share a hug at that particular time. And then he follows through on that and treats everyone great, whether they were pro hug or not.

    He also, now that I think about it, tends to offer hugs when *parting ways* with someone he’s been talking to, and not as part of an agenda to segue into either initial or continued contact.

  172. I agree with mythago. In my experience, it is the self-entitlement and immaturity that a creeper make. It’s not even necessarily sexual intent. I have a gamer friend that has been unsuccessfully trying to get into my pants for almost three years. He is very charismatic and open sexually and has never made me feel uncomfortable. I think that every time I have hung out with him since I met him, he has come on to me in one way or another but in a way that has never made me feel unsafe. I always turn him down, and he always shrugs and moves onto something more interesting to talk about. He goes through life with the philosophy, “Hey, if you have it, use it” but I also know that if he ever did make me feel uncomfortable, we could talk about it like adults and move on.

    I have another friend who isn’t quite in creeper territory but is stuck in a “nice guy” rut. We went on a few dates, in which he flaked out and would cancel without notice or show up up to an hour late. Then, when I casually introduced him to a friend, he decided she should give him a chance after meeting him once and proceeded to talk about her constantly with me and everyone he knows. About how she should just give him a chance, and nobody gives him a chance, and why won’t someone just date him, already? He just needs a chance to show someone how awesome he is. Even months establishing first contact, in which he never really talked to her or saw her, he still was unhappy she didn’t give him a chance. When she started seeing another friend of mine who actually talked to her like a human being and told her he was interested in her, the first friend started complaining about how our mutual friend was breaking the bro code, since he obviously saw her first, and it just isn’t fair because it’s always asshats like mutual friend (who is just as nerdy and much sweeter than the friend with problems) who get the girl.

    Entitlement has a lot to do with it. The guy who hits on me is very open in that he believes that women are awesome. All women are beautiful. Big women, thin women, nerdy women, older women, whatever. But he doesn’t come off as feeling entitled. A lot of guys I know treat gaming events like “chances to get laid” and expect to get someone to sleep with them. Preferably someone society would deem a hot chick dressed in skimpy clothing, but a sure thing like a nerdy, shy girl is guaranteed, amiriteguyz?!?!? Flirty guy goes through life thinking “Wow, that girl is awesome. We’re both adults, maybe I’ll be lucky enough to convince her to have some adult fun with me. Oh, not interested. Oh well, maybe she’ll play Munchkin for a while and we can chat about our RPG characters.” Other guy is like “That girl is fat and shy, I bet I have a chance. If I hang around long enough, she’ll get desperate enough to give me a go. Oh, it’s been a couple of weeks. Why isn’t she paying attention to me? She probably just likes assholes. Nice guys like me don’t have a chance.”

    Somehow, outgoing flirty guy got me, the most awkward girl in the world, to open up and flirt back at him, both of us understanding that nothing’s going to come of it. The other guy often complains, when I see him at games, that I never text him or call him or hang out with him any more.

    This was way longer than I intended, but in my experience creepers want what they feel should be owed to them but have little self worth so can’t actually come out and tell women what they want. If they don’t get what they want, they have to try to maintain their status with their male peers. This results in their creepy behavior, both in trying to get girls and in trying to prove their elevated status above them.

  173. I’m going to bed. This thread has the potential to sprout trolls overnight, so if it does, please take my following advice: Ignore them and leave them to me. I’ll cull them out in the morning. I thank you in advance.

  174. @mythago,

    You can totally stand on my foot anytime.

    Wait, that’s not where you were going with that, is it… ;)

  175. Peter Cibulskis at 12:22:
    Except that the problem with this is that the list of acceptable is different for everyone. From an early age, we met and dated people at school, friends of friends and then work. In the olden days, there were singles mixers.

    So wouldnt it be easier to list the places where hitting on was forbidden? Church, funerals and bathrooms?

    I believe you may be confusing the concept of “meeting people and getting to know them in a venue of mutual interest” with “hitting on total strangers for the purpose of getting it on.”

    There are very, VERY few spaces in which everyone, or nearly everyone, there is interested in hooking up for sex with someone they don’t otherwise know. Singles-oriented nightclubs, after-hours “social” events, etc. can be assumed to be places intended to facilitate hooking up like that.

    A general con floor? No. Not remotely. There may well be some people there who are on the prowl and looking for some short-term action with someone they don’t know, but the vast majority will be there for the event itself. They want to go to panels. They want to get autographs. They want to buy merch. They are not there because they’re looking to get laid.

    This is not to say that genuine relationships–short or long-term–can’t come out of those spaces, but those develop gradually, out of mutual interest in each other as people. They are people who hit it off after chatting in a line outside Hall H who then follow each other on Twitter, and two months later meet up in Fresno for a few dates. They are not people who hooked up after some leering assgasket walked up to a total stranger and said, “Nice costume. Wanna fuck?” (Seriously: When has this EVER worked? I really want to know.)

    The general rule of thumb should be this: If you’re not in a hookup-oriented space, no-one there wants to fuck you, so don’t ask. If you are in a hookup-oriented space, only a handful of people there might want to fuck you, so ask politely, and take rejection with class.

    As for what constitutes a hookup-oriented space? If there’s anything more to it than booze and dancing, chances are pretty good it’s not.

  176. Re. “Amateur Hour”: Fair enough, sir. I stand rebuked. Shouldn’t have done it, won’t do it again. Thank you for taking that third option.

    I’m not even going to go on elaborating on my point (FYI: just deleted about 500 words trying to explain my thinking) because I think what raises my concern is the one-in-a-million case: The well-meaning stranger approaching the hyper-vigilant sociophobe who responds by bringing down some hammer (legal prosecution, lifetime ban from con, etc) without warning. I’m picturing the tourist in Calgary, writing the nasty letter to the local paper because he can’t shoot the friendly strangers who dared speak to him and his wife in a public park. (Google this if you don’t know what I’m talking about – it’s a whale of a tale.)

    Some of the logic from comments may appear to head down that path, but it’s clearly not what the real concern is about. There is inarguably an epidemic of “creeping” in the society I see, and by defending that one-in-a-million case I’m imagining, I’m taking the side of the jerks. Not my intention, and I will attempt to stop doing that.

    And I do understand, by the way, that it’s not about me. Or rather, that it’s only about me exactly as much as it’s about any other individual.

  177. Catherine Shaffer:

    I think here you may be reinforcing the myth of the well-intentioned but clueless creeper and giving ammunition to people who make excuses for them. These are good rules, but the people who break them do so because they don’t believe the rules apply to them, not because they simply don’t understand.

    Ah, but how many of the rule-breakers stay in the good graces of others by relying on the pretense that they didn’t know better? Look how many times (to paraphrase) “the person being creeped-on has a duty to inform the creeper what’s wrong” has come up in this thread alone. It’s a desperate attempt to preserve deniability. By making clear, and spreading far and wide, how not to be a creep, we leave rule-breakers without that crucial defense. It’s hard to keep playing the well-intentioned clueless dude while standing ankle-deep in clues.

  178. #1 is pretty hostile. Are socially awkward people supposed to isolate themselves and hide away from the world, just so that other people don’t have to feel uncomfortable? Even if we abandon the possibility of socializing, sooner or later we have to interact with other people. If they’re creeped out, that’s too bad for them.

    The rest of the list is great advice, but the bigotry contained in #1 is really disheartening.

  179. You don’t need to be taught social cues. You don’t need to be taught how to read body language before you can do basic behavior. The “Don’ts” that Scalzi gave are stuff that we were all taught in grade school: don’t touch, don’t cuddle up to someone, don’t follow people around, don’t talk to them about sex, don’t bully, don’t pester people. Ninety percent of us learned this as older children. One hundred percent or just nearly so of adults attending a convention or event were taught this as older children. Quit blaming the autistic and those with mental challenges as an excuse for your behavior. Quit the “worry” that women particularly are being oversensitive to every little gesture of friendliness — which is a power play — and quit castigating people for not educating others as the source of the problem — which is another power play. Unless you brought your significant other with you, stop thinking that you might get laid. It’s a public event. You know how to act in public events. You went to school. You probably have a job. You probably have been to a party at least once in your life. You have had to interact with many people and not had sex with them and have had to remember the basics of don’t touch, don’t cuddle up, don’t follow, don’t talk about sex, don’t bully, don’t pester. If you are socially awkward, if you are shy, you still know these basic behaviors. Unless you have been living in a cave, you know them. Unless you have a medical problem that effects your ability to be in control of yourself at a public event, you know them. If you have a medical problem, you should avoid going to the public event until you can get assistance to be able to control yourself or have someone with you to help you. (We’ve done this dance on the Readercon threads.) But the guy who asked Scalzi the question didn’t have that. Most of us at a convention do not have that. And so you already do know what to do. So if a person is not doing those basic behaviors, then that person is a threat. Doesn’t matter if the person is nice to his mother, kind to her dog, and has many, many friends. You are a threat because nobody has time to psychoanalyze you. Follow the basic behaviors or be prepared to be considered a threat. Because you’re not a kid anymore where when you messed up, it was cute. You’re an adult who should know the minimum level of social interaction with others, and if you don’t, then be prepared to be seen as very likely dangerous, especially if you talk about sex.

  180. An explicit, concrete suggestion:
    I’m prone to enthusiasms, and not necessarily sensitive to subtle social or emotional cues (yes, John, we’ve run into each other at a couple of cons), so when I get into a conversation with a woman (oh, yeah, I’m male), I try to get by back toward the wall so that she’s between me and the door. If she chooses to walk away, it’s that much easier and explicitly unobstructed.

  181. “Are socially awkward people supposed to isolate themselves and hide away from the world, just so that other people don’t have to feel uncomfortable?”

    Are people supposed to potentially put their personal safety at risk so that ‘awkward’ people don’t get their feelings hurt?

    Did you actually read the post? It’s giving practical, realistic ways in which you DON’T have to isolate yourself or hide from the world to not scare people.

  182. Hey Mark,

    Telling socially awkward people you’re responsible for your own actions isn’t hostile or bigoted. It’s just a nice statement of reality with a side dose of respect: the respect you give someone when you say “yeah, this is your problem to solve, and I trust that you have the ability to solve it.”

    You apparently think you should take your social awkwardness into the world, and if it (say) includes your mistaken belief that the best way to make women comfortable is to firmly grab their breasts as part of an introduction, the rest of us are supposed to go ahead and be okay with that because otherwise we’re saying you can’t socialize. And that’s bigoted of us.

    In fact, it’s more that we’re saying: yeah, that’s not okay, stop doing that. Learn to socialize without breast-grabbing because you are SO SO SO wrong about the okay-ness of breast-grabbing. And it’s not our problem; it’s yours. You’re the one who thinks grabbing strangers’ breasts is appropriate. The owners of those breasts disagree and it is not their job to tell you so.

    Now, you’re going to say you’re socially awkward but you’d never grab someone’s breast while introducing yourself. Good! I’m glad. Go ahead and read the rest of John’s suggestions for what not to do, they are similarly useful and you probably already do most of them. Learning is fun.

  183. One way of thinking about it:

    Unless you’ve established some sort of positive rapport with someone, you represent a potential bodily threat by your mere physical presence. The other person literally can’t afford to discount the threat, so you’ve got an obligation to not do things that might amplify the perceived threat level.

    (Sometimes it’s hard to register that you yourself can be a threat, especially if you were the threatened one when your self-image was being formed. I’d bet that someone who was a shrimpy little kid in school but found himself on the tall and massive side as an adult would find it particularly hard to understand – it wasn’t until the past few years, when I was amiably chatting with a colleague in an elevator, that the realization came to me that I wasn’t five-foot-nothing, a hundred-and-nothing any more, and that if she hadn’t known me well, she would have been fully justified in considering me a potential physical threat, no matter what was being said.)

    Even if you know deep down that you don’t intend anything malicious, the other person doesn’t know that, and has every reason not to trust you.

  184. I’m finding it funny (read: highly fucking irritating) that there are excuses being made for the creeper, and quite a bit of victim blaming. People…..we learn in preschool to keep our hands to ourselves. Lord knows I impart that bit of wisdom EVERY DAY to my preschool students, and believe it or not, they all learn, eventually, to keep their hands to themselves. Even the boys who are interested in video games learn this. We learn by first grade that it’s not polite to touch someone without consent, it’s not funny to come up behind someone and grab them, and by middle school, we ought to have learned that it is never, ever, ever okay to attempt to sexually assault someone.

    And yet, here we are, presumably all adults, and there are some of us blaming the victim for not explaining herself when she tells the creeper to leave her alone, he’s making her uncomfortable. I ask, in all sincerity, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? Victim blaming and shaming is part of how creepers get away with that shit, because apologists will tell you, the victim, “Well, he just can’t help it, he’s socially awkward/I think he’s an Aspie/YOU led him on,” and tell the creeper, “It’s okay, man, she’s just another bitch who doesn’t think gamers are good enough for her.” Really? How about telling the creeper, “Dude, BACK OFF. She GAVE you a reason, now LEAVE HER ALONE.” Or, “Let me make this crystal clear to you, dude, if you keep this creeper shit up, then we will feel no need to invite you to other events.” Or, “Hey, someone call con security to get this guy out of here. Dude, it’s not cool to act like that at all.”

    I said it once, and I’ll say it again: Until other MEN start calling these asshats out on their behavior, it will continue. Until other men start telling the creepers among them that they are socially unacceptable and their behavior is out of line, it will continue. I shudder to think what would have happened to me had the creeper in the group not been called on his shit by my husband, or had I been too afraid to stand up to him. The guy had me cornered, and he’s considerably larger than I am, it could have ended quite badly. Had the other men in the group not finally stood up for someone else, and stopped taking up for him, well, the creeper would have been part of the group longer than I would have. And God, what would I have had to do had he been around when my daughter hit puberty? Jesus, it would have gotten UGLY, because I probably would have killed him the first time he tried to assault her.

  185. Hi all.

    A few things occur to me:

    Gentlemen, please understand something. Women, on a daily basis have to perform unconscious threat assessment (and conscious threat assessment) to a level that no matter who and what and where you are, men simply do not. We call this “existing while female.” By the time a woman is an adult, really- I promise you, we are very, very good at assessing “creepy”. Which as many have said here, is not the same as awkward.

    I also find the whole “creepy vs. awkward” discussion frustrating. See, awkward people? They know they’re awkward and go way out of their way not to cause offense. When they do and know it? They never do (whatever it was) again- going WAY out of their way to not repeat the behavior and are horrified with themselves.

    Considering the number of times that any adult woman experiences creepy behavior at the hands of (almost always) men, not just in a geek setting but in every setting, every where, every day, just by existing as a female carbon based life form, it’s really tiresome to hear the same excuses being whipped out for why the responsibility should be on women to tolerate this behavior. We are told we should be rationalizing the motives of the aggressor as “harmless”. It’s not harmless. Period. It simply isn’t. It’s a sexual power play, and I’m tired of being told I need to give it a free pass for even a nanosecond.

    Further, it’s simply not our job to have to constantly accommodate the fee-fees of people who make us feel unsafe. Even if we were to say that say 10% of the male population acts in a way that does this, can we back up for a second and do the math on that and realize how many people that *actually* represents, and make a fair extrapolation of just how often women have to deal with one form or another of this behavior? It’s *FAR* more than some of the men who have commented here believe it is. Truly.

    Besides, it’s toxic behavior- and like any other form of toxicity, it builds up until you reach a critical mass of sensitivity to it. When I was 20, i made excuses for this stuff, because i was taught (like women are) to do so. No more. and I wish I could go back and tell my 20 year old self not to tolerate it for one moment. Frankly, if I can convince even *one* 20 year old woman not to *ever* tolerate it? I will have saved her from years of crap she never should have had to take. I’m perfectly content to do that at the expense of the feelings of otherwise adult men who should, and I think in the overwhelming majority of cases do know better.

  186. @Mark: Just read the rule itself:

    1. Acknowledge that you are responsible for your own actions

    There’s nothing in the rule that is hostile. It’s basic adulthood. While compassion is a good and decent and highly commendable thing – it’s a gift. It’s not an act of indenture. It’s not emotional welfare, to which the benighted are entitled. It’s a gift.

    What this means in practice, is you don’t get to say “but you made me horny” or “but you didn’t tell me no clearly enough” or “but given what you were wearing” or “but you were so nice to that other guy, I thought you’d be open to this”. None of those things justify encroachment of boundaries.

    They may explain it – but they don’t justify it. Just because we understand someone doesn’t mean they are not in the wrong.

  187. To anyone who hasn’t read it I’d recommend Gavin de Becker’s The Gift of Fear. My GF gave it to me and it was an eye opener for me about the different world women live in when it comes to feeling unsafe. The guy who wrote it is a security expert who works with politicians and celebrities so he knows what he’s talking about

  188. See, this is why I love whatever.scalzi: at any time a comment by someone named katyisbutthurt might immediately be followed by a discussion of Kant.

    And in other phrases I never thought I’d type, I think katyisbutthurt makes an interesting point that gets to the heart of why today’s post is so excellent. With the noted exception of actual jerks/predators this post can help nearly everyone else. It likely helps the targets of creepiness feel heard and supported. It also offers great advice for the sincerely well-meaning but heretofore clueless. And, most importantly it speaks to EVERYONE ELSE.

    What’s overlooked in most of the creepee-vs.-creeper / fear-vs.-awkward death match above is that y’all are both right: neither the creepee nor the creeper is best suited to be the educator in this situation Yes, it can sometimes be hard to get a clue and yet it’s also not a stranger’s job to teach someone manners. That’s what friends and family are for. But as anyone who’s seen these situations go down (or read the great Captain Awkward linked above) can tell you, friends and family are often the biggest enablers.

    I forget which commenter above picked You’re Teachin’ It Wrong as his hill to die on, but he did have one small salient point in that this post may not convince a lot of offenders to change their ways. What he overlooked is that it may not be the only reason to write it. A lot of bystanders will read this post, most of whom are not as likely to judge their self-worth based on whether or not someone else is a creeper. That makes it much more likely that they are better positioned to hear its message. Conveniently, they’re also much better positioned to help a creeping friend or family member see the error of their ways and make a change for the better.

    That is the best part of this post; it’s written by a bystander and it speaks to bystanders. Because ultimately it’s bystanders who hold the greatest power to change the culture of creepiness.

    Excellent, excellent post, John Scalzi. Thank you so much for writing it.

    (@Jonathan.Hendry: I’m totally stealing the DEFCREEP 1 idea. From now on all my creepers will be mentally narrated by Dabney Coleman. Though I hate to break it to you, but in my experience flirty old men are usually at least a DEFCREEP 3.)

  189. On the topic of social awkwardness and Asperger’s — something very pertinent was pointed out in one of the many LJ discussions I read about the Readercon incident (I can’t find it now or I’d link to it).

    The Aspies/socially awkward people in our communities aren’t all men, and aren’t always the ones doing the boundary-crossing. Sometimes they’re the targets, too. If you’re a socially awkward woman, and a guy comes at you in a way you can’t handle, it really sucks. It sucks twice as hard if, as the approachee, the social norm is that you are expected to be the one to police and manage the interaction.

    I’ve had awkward female friends be overwhelmed by guys, either using good social engineering or serious cluelessness, and it’s a horrible place to be. If it’s exasperating and upsetting for a woman with lots of social tricks to fend someone off, imagine how it is for someone who hasn’t got those tricks, or the skillset to diagnose the problem. All they have is the overwhelming feeling of being trapped, with no way out.

    Speaking of people whose fault things are not.

    It’s something to think about, when considering the role of Asperger Syndrome and other social awkwardnesses in this context.

  190. @Wendy Withers: While I agree with you agreeing and also the non-specifically-agreeing parts of your post, Gamer Dude #1, while charismatic and not-creepy, is a doucheloaf, as you describe him. Three years? What part of ‘no’ does dude not understand– oh, right, the part that he doesn’t want to understand. If he just accepted your ‘no’ and said hey, bummer, but let me know if you ever change your mind, then he has to wait on you to actually change your mind. Whereas if he treats your ‘no’ as ‘ask me again next time you see me’, hey! Maybe he’ll wear you down, or maybe you’ll be in a emotionally rough place and less likely to say no, or you’ll figure he’s never going to stop asking you so might as well say yes, and then he gets the sexytimes he wants that you have already declined, over and over, for three groudon years.

    (It’d be one thing if you explicitly left the door open; “Sorry, I’m dating somebody. But if I’m ever single again check back with me.” Well okay then! But, as The Gift of Fear puts it, ‘no’ is a complete sentence, and a person who does not accept your ‘no’ is telling you that their desire to get into your pants trumps your opinions on the matter.)

    I know we’re a little off topic here, but creepers are not the only variety of predatory jerk. Many predatory jerks are perfectly capable of being friendly, positive in their approach to women, and so on. But ignoring “no” or treating it as the opening salvo in a negotiation? The guy may be friendly, he may be charismatic, he may be a great gaming buddy, but he is not really that much more respectful of your opinions about your sexuality than the guy who says “But why don’t you want a hug from me?!”

  191. It’s really pretty easy to avoid being non-creepy. The whole original post above was about ways to avoid creeping.

    If everyone really did find it pretty easy, none of the original post would be here, because that’s how easy it is.

  192. I’d like to reiterate the mention of Gavin deBecker’s A GIFT OF FEAR (made earlier and now probably lost in the thread). http://www.amazon.com/The-Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198

    Those who wonder why people are weirded out by creepers need only read how sociopaths manipulate the way we were raised to “be nice” “not make waves” “let him down gently” to get us into situations that are not healthy or safe.

    If a creeper makes you feel unsafe, even if you can’t figure out why or what reason you might have, you have every right in the world to just get out of the situation and never deal with whoever is making you uncomfortable again. Ever.

    @katyisbutthurt, your husband is awesome.

  193. Random thought: when I see some dude going off about how, if he’s not allowed to be creepy, he’ll never get laid, I always think, “uh, exactly how well is that approach working for you now?”

    Of course then again, I always find myself underestimating the number of messed-up women who do respond to that stuff. And I spose all it takes is one success for creeper dude to think that approach should be his lifetime m.o. and gawd-given right forevah.

  194. Gretchen Ash says (August 9, 2012 at 7:12 pm)
    I would add that if you hold the power position in the interaction (and guys, this is almost always you if your communication partner is female), always err on the side of formality.

    This is, IMO, a useful tip. One thing that I find helpful is sitting down. Mainly because that can help create a different power dynamic. The height difference it part of it, but it also says that you’re not going to be chasing anyone around, so people can choose how close to you they get. I discovered this by accident since most women are shorter than I am so I often find myself either bending down or sitting on something. If you’re at an event where the few women are being chatted up relentlessly, but all seem to mysteriously end up clustered around the one guy who’s sitting down, that’s possibly part of why.

    Also, anything else you can think of to reduce the power imbalance (naked, BTW, does not count). Listen more, talk less. Respond to what she says, rather than just waiting for her to stop talking so you can have a go.

    Other men:
    I’m horrified of being perceived as a creep, to the point that I’m deeply reluctant to talk to women if I don’t already know them

    If you wander up to a woman who’s not otherwise engaged and stop about a metre away and say “Hi, I’m Bob, how’s it going?” you’ll probably be fine. If she says “go away”, that’s pretty straightforward. The whole post above is aimed right at people like you, you know. Read it a few more times. If it helps, imagine that the woman really is a green-tentacled alien from Formaldehyde. Maybe it’s just me, but if there was an alien I’d be right up there trying to have a chat. Coz, aliens!

  195. Give them space. Hey: Hold your arm straight out in front of your body. Where your fingertips are? That’s a nice minimum distance for someone you’re meeting or don’t know particularly well (it’s also not a bad distance for people you do know).

    I encounter very few people of any gender who follow this most excellent advice. I’m usually the one backing away from someone getting up in my grille, trying not to make it look like I’m trying to get away from them for any reason they might take personally (which is true unless they’re among the sizeable majority who evidently don’t know what a toothbrush is). Generally I avoid people who don’t respect personal space. In a crowded room I make allowances, but inveterate space invaders in wide open areas are truly obnoxious.

    I think personal hygiene needs to be on the list too.

    Slut is a reference to how other people interact with other people. Creep is a reference to how other people interact with you. Only you get to determine if someone is creeping you out. Any busybody sticking their nose in other people’s affairs can determine that someone is a “slut” (i.e. doesn’t follow arbitrary sexual social mores borne from sexual insecurity, body-shame and other moronic irrational cultural baggage).

    I have been crept on by women, btw. One woman in the SCA seemed to think it was her prerogative to squeeze the ass of any man she felt like conferring such attentions on. One of the differences between women and men in our society: when I told her not to do it any more, she never did it again. (There was a bit of attitude given about being a “spoilsport,” but she kept her hands off me.)

    I tend to think a few more broken wrists would stem the tide of people who continue to do it after they’ve been told to stop. But I’d feel awful I actually broke someone’s wrist, even if I was justified.

    @ Roland Martinez

    Eventually the destination is some hyperliberal distopia where nobody gets laid.

    Respecting people’s sovereignty is libertarian, not liberal. It doesn’t matter if you come from Chicago or Jupiter. Your liberties end where mine begin.

    @ paranoyd

    Good list. I would only slightly disagree with the idea that joining a group to meet someone is creepy – sometimes your looking for an “in” and that’s the opportunity that presents itself. However, if you’re asked to leave, then get thee gone

    I agree. The rest of the list is spot on. But wandering over to a group of people in a crowd to talk to someone is practical human behavior. I’d be really surprised if John has never done this. In fact, I doubt many people at all have never done this. That said, if there is any indication, overt or otherwise, that you’re unwelcome, scram.

    @ Xopher Halftongue

    I appreciate your point of view, Devin, but for gay men who grew up in the 1970s, like me, it’s a matter of personal safety. Yes, that means I don’t trust straight men not to assault me (or just verbally abuse me) if I express attraction, no matter how politely I express it.

    Entirely understandable. That said, I personally am flattered when a guy hits on me. But I’m secure enough in my own sexuality not to need to prove it.

    @ Christy

    And particularly appropriate when the target is a woman, given that women are socialized to be polite, more’s the pity. I have friends who are cops, and if I’ve heard them say it once, I’ve heard it a hundred times: if more women would trust their instincts when they feel that something or someone is off, there would be fewer female crime victims. Caveat: at least among my cop friends, this is said not as blaming the victim but as an indictment of the fact that our society routely socializes women out of taking their gut responses seriously for fear of being “rude”.

    So very this!

    @ Peter Cibulskis

    Your culture ends when it enters my personal space. No one cares that you are uneducated, unintended or malicious. Get out of my space.

    Yup. Culture isn’t some borganism to which one is entitled to outsource responsibility for their actions. It’s nothing more or less than the net total of its constituents’ behavior. And no one’s culturally shared beliefs override the just liberties of anyone else.

    @ Kathleen

    I spent a long time thinking my need to hug people I like was more important than their need to feel comfortable, and I regret it. Now I always ask and only if the person seems open to it.

    Thank you, sincerely. If it’s not obvious by now, I have personal space issues. I don’t mind people in my personal space, as long as it’s on my terms. Coupled with the fact that I know how to apply pain without physically injuring transgressors and the knowledge that I would feel shitty if I acted on that knowledge, I always give space invaders one opportunity to take don’t do that again for an answer. If I sensed they were actually hostile, I’d dispense with the warning, but that hasn’t happened to me yet and hopefully never will. I don’t consider this an obligation. I’ll stand up for anyone’s right to kick the ass of anyone who touched them without permission, up to an including depriving the attacker of their life. But I’ll also stand up for their right to deal with it any other way they choose, and their right not to have to deal with it in the first place.

    @ socorpius

    Which brings up a saying “When in Rome do as the Romans do”. Well, that’s not the best phrase to use here. Maybe it’s more “When in Saudi Arabia, and a woman, understand that the denizens of that country are going to freak out if you don’t cover your hair and dress modestly”. Now, are they wrong if they stone you to death (as does happen often)? Sure. Could you avoid a rock to the head by being a little more sensitive to their culture? Yup.

    So, what I really advocating here is a compromise.

    No compromise with tyrants.
    No truce with kings.
    Not a penny for tribute.
    Not even one-night flings.

    @ Diera

    I think… and I’m feeling my way here, and of course keep in mind that I am not all women… that there are different layers of being direct or indirect. My recommendation, “Want to join me for a bite to eat?” isn’t THAT direct, It’s not “I would like to have sexual intercourse with you, how do you feel about that?”, but it is direct about there being interest, even if it’s only for a meal.

    One thing I always tell guys who ask me for advice on asking women out is to make sure they’re offering something and asking if the woman wants to partake, putting the ball in her court, so to speak. For example, ask if she’d like to go out with you instead of asking for her number. Or give her your card and tell her she can call you if she’d like to go out sometime.

    @ 49th

    I’m terrified of presenting creeper behaviours without knowing I am doing so, and I’m actually a little scared of saying so because of the large number of people in this thread who’ve said that every creepy behaviour is the deliberate manifestation of malice by a creeper.

    I’m missing the part where your insecurities are anyone else’s problem.

    If you can’t tell the difference between being creepy and not. Learn. Get help from your social circle and anyone else willing to help you, but learn. That’s your job as an adult.

    And if someone misconstrues your behavior toward them as other than you intended, too bad. You have no claim to their liking, understanding or associating with you in any way.

    @ GBCCm

    Since creeper behavior is in the eye of the beholder, anyone can be an unwitting creeper, and the only absolutely certain way of avoiding being perceived as a creep is to avoid all social contact. John’s tips may help, but they can’t be 100% effective.

    You’re missing the point. You have no say in whether someone is creeped out by your behavior toward them. Association is a privilege, not a right.

    @ mythago (re: Jennifer Davis Ewing)

    But you DID just explain. “Because it’s making me uncomfortable” is an explanation. I am baffled by the idea that it’s not OK to just tell somebody that you don’t like what they’re doing and you would like them to stop, but must then set aside whatever you were doing to offer them an explanation (justification, let’s face it) for why you did not find their conduct thrilling.

    To be fair, Jennifer didn’t say it wasn’t okay or that you must do so; only that she thought it was useful. Which is true insofar as it goes. It still doesn’t mean anyone should have to explain jack.

    The whole point of uninvited hugs and touches is to push past someone’s boundaries in a way that is difficult for them to stop.

    I’ve had people touch me to get a rise out of me (I described the details in a recent thread here). But I’ve also had strangers touch me without realizing they were crossing boundaries. It doesn’t make it okay, and I do tell them not to repeat the behavior, but I do not believe they were intentionally violating my boundaries.

    The goal of physically boxing someone in is to make it difficult for them to remove themselves from your presence.

    For the sake of clarity, this part I agree with you.

    @ Elizabeth Moon

    The creeper gets too close, intrudes on conversations when not invited, won’t go away, pouts and whines if corrected, shows every sign of being a control-freak.

    That’s the crux of it. Anyone who believes they have a claim to interaction with another seeks control over their target.

    @ Chris

    What motivates my statement here is that, sometimes though perhaps not often, the individual who sees him or herself as being “creeped” may lack some social skills, and may think he or she has a right to never come in contact with any person he or she sees as unattractive or otherwise disagreeable.

    John’s point, and the point of many here including me, is not that anyone should have a right never to encounter someone they dislike, but rather that they have a just right to end that association at their will for any reason or no reason however arbitrary or intolerant.

    So that’s my take. Feel free to commence hostility – or, I suppose, you could all agree that my opinion is well considered and seems fair. Which would be a first for me on the Internet.

    You must not get around much. I guess it’s my privilege to be the first person to consider your opinion fair and considered, while disagreeing with the thrust of it. Because, you know, someone can disagree with you and not be hostile, so either no one ever has, or you conflate disagreement with hostility. I’ll assume the former.

    I’m not even going to go on elaborating on my point (FYI: just deleted about 500 words trying to explain my thinking) because I think what raises my concern is the one-in-a-million case: The well-meaning stranger approaching the hyper-vigilant sociophobe who responds by bringing down some hammer (legal prosecution, lifetime ban from con, etc) without warning.

    Where in the original post or any of the comments here did anyone say retaliation was an appropriate response to someone trying to start a conversation? I’d say you’re presenting a strawman argument, but I think you’re sincere in your concerns and didn’t realize it was on the other side of the moon from what every else here was discussing.

    @ tessuraea

    If you pay attention to someone’s “go away” signals and actually go away, that person may actually decide hey, you didn’t mean to be pushy. If you’re genuinely a decent person, the best way to show that is to respect people’s boundaries. Sometimes, then, the people in question end up being your friends.

    + 1 Million
    There is nothing more attractive (romantically or platonically) than someone who treats you with respect, and nothing less attractive than someone who doesn’t.

    @ Wendy Withers

    We went on a few dates, in which he flaked out and would cancel without notice or show up up to an hour late.

    Sounds like your female friend dodged a bad date with a guy who lacks the consideration to keep simple promises. If being given a chance was really so important to him, he’d make it to the date on time. Emergencies happen, but serial tardiness is a sign of gross disrespect and demonstrates that however much the individual may claim interest, that interest isn’t enough to behave as an adult.

    Preferably someone society would deem a hot chick dressed in skimpy clothing, but a sure thing like a nerdy, shy girl is guaranteed, amiriteguyz?!?!?

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or, to be cliché, everyone’s sense of aesthetics is personal. I like strong, self-confident braniacs who dress elegantly (e.g. not skimpily), but another guy may be totally unattracted to the type of woman to whom I’m attracted.

    Flirty guy goes through life thinking “Wow, that girl is awesome. We’re both adults, maybe I’ll be lucky enough to convince her to have some adult fun with me. Oh, not interested. Oh well, maybe she’ll play Munchkin for a while and we can chat about our RPG characters.”

    That’s a pretty unflattering stereotype. I flirt with women without thinking about sex. There is a lot more to romance than sex, or even physical intimacy.

    @ Mark

    #1 is pretty hostile. Are socially awkward people supposed to isolate themselves and hide away from the world, just so that other people don’t have to feel uncomfortable? Even if we abandon the possibility of socializing, sooner or later we have to interact with other people.

    You’re supposed to learn. If you can’t learn or haven’t learned, then, when in doubt, err on the side of caution by giving people their space and leaving them alone.

    If they’re creeped out, that’s too bad for them.

    No, it’s too bad for you. One more time: You have no just claim whatsoever – zero, zip, zilch, nada, none – to the interaction or appreciation of others. End of story, get off my foot, back off, complain or seek advice, but do it with someone else.

    @ Bruce K

    Outmassing someone isn’t necessary to be a physical threat to them. The human body is fragile. One reason I don’t let people touch me without permission, and would defend myself without hesitation if I thought the intent of someone doing so was hostile, is because once someone is in physical contact with you, they could potentially inflict injury before you could act to defend yourself. If you wait for a transgression to become a violent attack, it may already be too late. That most bulky men feel unassailable is a conceit that mostly goes unchallenged because most potential attackers operate on the same assumption. Also, for better or worse, our society does not encourage the teaching of the body’s vulnerabilities.

    @ He is still Moz

    Maybe it’s just me, but if there was an alien I’d be right up there trying to have a chat. Coz, aliens!

    No, it’s not just you.

  196. I could put the title essay in a lot less words – “Watch ‘Big Bang Theory.’ Observe Howard. Don’t be like him. At all.”

  197. @mythago: Thank you for acting like there might be a question there worth answering. I’ll try.

    It can be difficult for someone who has trouble reading facial expressions or body language to navigate #10, particularly if they never did get the entire rulebook about eye contact. Double particularly if their childhood involved being socialized by their peers to break eye contact the moment it’s made.

    (What’s it like when you don’t have the rulebook? Here’s a fun game! The next time you are talking with someone, force yourself to be aware of how much eye contact you are making, and force yourself to make it happen exactly 35% of the time. Keep a running count. Don’t break the conversation. If you do break the conversation, you lose. If you do lose count, you lose. If you go above or below 35%, you lose. For the advanced game, you get to realize that this means you’re spending 65% of your time not making eye contact, and now you also have to measure the discomfort caused by where you’re looking instead, and keep a running track of that, too, and make sure to minimize the discomfort, but don’t make a pattern of where you look, because that’s weird and you lose.)

    (I’m not kidding, by the way. I’m sure that the whole eye contact thing is super easy for you, but you find it easy because you find it instinctive. Once you have to do it consciously, and you play the game for real and break off every conversation where you lose….)

    It’s really difficult to not violate #7 in some small rooms. I also wish I knew exactly why my brain can’t figure out how much space my body takes up. Put those two together and your plenty-of-room can be the other person’s barely-squeeze-past or oh-god-I’m-trapped even if you’re not in a corner. Sometimes even if you’re not near a wall. (I have been gobsmacked by people telling me that I’m bulky. No I’m not! I’m just below average height! And then the voice in the back of my head reminds me: “For a guy, 49th, you’re just below average…”)

    Which leads into #6, which I honestly have just stopped trying to figure out because I never get it right, and the only times I notice are when I’m over the line. I now just place myself about a quarter-step too far away from the other person to feel connected, because then I can be sorta kinda sure I’m not intruding in their comfort zone. Not “sure”, of course. Just that this works most of the time.

    And that leads to #5, and the fact that of all the items in the prescriptive list, that’s the one that you can violate the quickest. (Not the worst of them, I think. I think the worst to violate would be #9, which I have never had much of a problem with. I’ve learned that assuming I always get cut off because I am No Longer Welcome So Get The Hell Away may not be true, but it doesn’t hurt to act like it’s true. At worst I look cold or flighty because I don’t talk with anyone more than once in a night, depending on how cheerful I am.) I’ve similarly just stopped trying to figure out this one. If I “know” that touching someone means game over, all I have to do is keep my hands at my sides. Doesn’t matter if it’s true. At worst, I come off cold.

    Of the rest, I either already overcame them (#4 is a hell of a drug, though) or it just never occurred to me that they’d be stuff that needs to be put on a list (hi, #8!). But yeah, there are things on that list that are just Not Decipherable for some people, and figuring out how to do it is not easy, and once you think you’ve got it down doing it and still being pleasant enough company to make it relevant that you are can be incredibly tiring. There’s a reason that if the party goes until two I’m home by midnight and it’s preceded by a half hour of the slow realization there’s nothing fun here anymore.

  198. Dear John,

    I’ve noticed that little watermark hiding in the lovely green background of your replies. This is perhaps the most perfectly opportune moment to point out to the world that I find it creepy. Oh yes, it is most creepy!

  199. 49th — Without knowing you, I can’t say for sure how you come across in person, but I will say this: a vast percentage of creepiness is driven by guys objectifying women, trying to get something (usually sex) from them, and resisting/arguing back when told their behavior isn’t cool. If you’re chatting up women like they’re people instead of tits, not trying to get anything from them other than a mutually enjoyable conversation, and you apologize if somebody says you’ve gone too far, then odds are good you’ve already avoided 90% of creeper behavior.

    As I was saying in the comments on my own journal, I often think what matters the most is the attitude, not a set of physical cues to be performed — because the cues will follow the attitude. Sure, you may be making too much/not enough eye contact, or you might be standing a little too close or too far, but that’s awkward more than it’s skeevy. And when in doubt, ask. “Please tell me if I’m standing too close” may be super-awkward, but it will label you as “trying to get a clue,” and that’s something people can tolerate pretty well.

  200. I believe that telling someone clearly that their behaviour is making you uncomfortable generally immediately separates the creepers who are abusing social norms and those that aren’t paying attention. I’m of the opinion that while no one receiving unwanted attention is obliged to clearly state so, if you feel capable of doing so you should. This helps the genuinely socially awkward identify problematic behaviour, signals to everyone around that creeper behaviour isn’t acceptable, and helps overcome that horrific ingrained behaviour of tolerating unpleasantness just to be polite. While I’ve found the cathartic self-improvement of permitting myself to be impolite to increase my comfort level a lot, the real benefit is from affecting people around you. It demonstrates another way for others to deal with creepers rather than just tolerating, warns people around to be aware that further creeping behaviour from this individual is a sign of willfulness, and encourages people to step in when their friend is creeping or being creeped.

    Saying “I’m not interested” or “You are making me uncomfortable” is a social good that can help transform the problematic bits of con/geek culture. If you don’t have the energy, don’t feel safe, feel socially awkward, or any other reason you don’t want to then you shouldn’t – but if you think you can handle it your are helping out the community by doing so.

  201. I don’t mean to tone police, but could folks please be really careful NOT to casually equate harassment with mental illness, physical/intellectual disability or neurological deficits? A hell of a lot of behaviour I’d most definitely define as “creeping” is coldly rational and calculated, and I sure as heck don’t recognize “obnoxious male entitlement to make other people feel like shit for their personal gratification” as a medical condition. It really is a lifestyle choice, people.

  202. 49th:

    About Rule 7: He is Still Moz had a good suggestion: find a place to sit down. Then you’re stationary, and the other person can make their own choices about where they go in relation to that. Also, it’s easier for them to not feel boxed in if you’re immobile.

    Another solution might be to seek to be the one boxed in. Occupy the corner. Lean against a wall. Let the other person stand between you and the door.

  203. Thanks for a really helpful post, John – it’s clarified a couple of things for me.

    And Daveon: “Being British, personal space can and should include the room to swing a cat, reverse a bus and possibly park an aircraft in.” Yes!!! [punches air] (er, yes, I’m British, how did you guess??)

  204. Good lord…I’ve never gone to a con (not comfortable being geeky in public), but after all I’ve been hearing lately about the way guys act at cons, I’ll never set foot in one now, even though I’m a straight male. Who’d want to be around people like that?

  205. Brian Mac:

    If you think this sort of crap happens only at science fiction conventions, you are sorely mistaken, I have to tell you. Don’t confuse us talking about this at conventions with this not being a problem elsewhere. As noted in the entry, creeping can go on anywhere (and does).

  206. As Abi points out upthread, women are just as capable of being socially clueless as men.

    However, feminine expression of social cluelessness is often different to masculine expression of same. Women are, in Western culture, still socialised to consider the needs and comfort of the other party or parties in a conversation or social setting over their own needs or comfort. A socially clueless woman is more likely to express her social cluelessness through not knowing how to gracefully escape from a conversation with a bore. A socially clueless woman is more likely to express her social cluelessness through not knowing how to state boundaries firmly (instead of saying “don’t touch me” to someone who lays hands on her, she’s more likely to just smile nervously and try to back away). A socially clueless woman is more likely to express her social cluelessness through not being able to stand up to bullying from someone who is of a higher social rank or knowledge.

    A socially clueless woman, when confronted by the type of creep who likes to pretend to be socially clueless (when in actual fact they’re more of a social rules lawyer) is more likely to wind up being harassed, being bullied, being abused, or being raped, and not reporting it because she feels it’s her fault for not knowing what to do in order to deal with the situation gracefully.

    John has supplied above some very helpful tips for persons who want to avoid being regarded as “creepers” in social situations. If we reverse them, they’re very helpful for socially clueless women (such as myself) because they help us to have a sense of what our expectations of other people should be.

    So here’s a version of the above from the other end – what socially clueless women (and men) should be able to expect from correctly socialised persons in mixed company, and in public.

    1) We should be able to expect other people to take responsibility for their own actions, or to be properly supervised by caretakers[1] if they aren’t willing or able to do so.

    2) We should be able to define our own comfort level in a situation, rather than having someone else define it for us.

    3) We should not be required to police the behaviour of another person (or persons) in order to participate in a social environment.

    4) We should be able to participate in social environments without having to constantly consider what other people want, expect, or think, to the detriment of our own enjoyment.

    5) We should be able to expect any touch to be both consensual, and consciously solicited (for example, people should ask whether or not one wishes to receive a hug or a handshake in greeting).

    6) We should be able to expect to have personal space boundaries respected, rather than violated (and any violations of those boundaries should be considered to be both temporary and unusual).

    7) We should be able to leave a space without hindrance if we feel the need.

    8) We should be able to expect people not to make sexual suggestions or innuendos where we don’t make it clear that these are welcome.[2]

    9) We should be able to leave a space without being persistently followed, pursued or stalked.

    10) If we express a wish not to be in company with another person, this wish should be honoured both by the person concerned, and by all other persons.

    [1] This stays. If you can’t consistently behave in a civilised fashion in a public setting, you don’t need my understanding, you need a keeper.
    [2] It shouldn’t have to be said: sex, politics and religion are not appropriate topics of conversation for either short acquaintance or polite company in a public space[3].
    [3] Blogs and blog comment threads are private spaces, before any smart arse asks.

  207. @ megpie71

    Good enough to nail to the doors of churches…er, conventions. I mean that as a compliment, in case it’s not clear. Luther was a person of his times, but he was a radical and fearless reformer focused on empowering individuals.

    The only part of the list I disagree with is the thing about politics and religion being inappropriate topics as a general code of conduct. Then again, if I even suspect that a topic is making people uncomfortable, I’ll ask them and drop it if it is. Sex I just assume it would unless otherwise indicated, but then sex is kind of boring as a conversation topic, so I don’t think I’ve ever had to avoid it.

  208. Waaay back from up there:

    scorpius: “If you feel uncomfortable by a creepy geek, please pull him/her aside and let him/her know. Trust me, if you do it in that way 8-1/2 times out of ten he’ll blush and say “I’m sorry” end of creeping.”

    What might happen the 1-1/2 other times is a good part of what keeps me very very indoors a lot of the time.

  209. John:

    I can’t disagree with any of your “rules” on their own merits. Most of us learn this sort of thing early by the end of the ninth grade. I have spent a lot of time in the corporate world, too, where these same rules are reemphasized again and again. Every adult should be aware of these issues.

    Furthermore, based on what I have read about the Readercon incident, it sounds like the woman had a legitimate complaint; and that banning her antagonist from future events was (probably) the right thing to do.

    I do have a few issues with all the sound and fury that has been generated by this, however, both here and elsewhere.

    You assert that either gender can be a “creeper,” and you’re technically correct. In practice, however, sexual harassment is *almost always* a male-on-female issue. As you also state, middle-aged guys like us aren’t on the receiving end of sexual harassment very often. So despite the carefully gender-neutral language used above , the implication here is that men are sexually harassing female participants at these events in droves.

    Is this the truth? It seems that what we have here is a relatively isolated case of a socially inept oddball who behaved inappropriately. Therefore, the appropriate course is to deal with him and move on. All of this online kvetching about a “culture of rape,” etc., seems a bit overwrought.

    It would also appear that among the “proudly beta-male and feminist” wing of the sic-fi community, there is an eagerness to make more of this than it really is. Jim Hines, for example, has a permanent section of his website that is dedicated to “rape.” I’ve also come across some less-than-attractive female bloggers (I’ll refrain from mentioning names here) who have seized upon this incident to publicly complain about how much they are ogled at these events by guys whom they have no interest in, and would never have an interest here.

    In short, it seems that we have wandered a bit from the original incident into what looks suspiciously like an AGENDA. Given the undeniably left-wing tilt of the current leadership in the sic-fi community, this is not an unreasonable conjecture.

  210. Ok, I’ve read maybe half the comments and, well, to be honest, I’ve always considered myself socially awkward. I’m not very good at small talk (a lot of my conversation these days seems to be ‘fair enough’ and ‘yeah’ and other platitudes unless I’m the one expounding on a topic), and I never really feel all that comfortable in groups or crowds.

    And yet I’d never dream of touching in any way someone I did not know. Let alone hugging them.

    But I have to admit, it can be VERY easy to creep someone out without meaning to. Without actually going near them, even.

    Some years back, I would catch the bus to work. And for a while there was a pretty girl on the same route. And I checked her out a few times… lonely guy, introverted, not even confident enough to try and get up the nerve to say hi. And at some point she noticed I had been looking at her. And I could see that she looked a bit freaked out… and I knew saying hi was no longer an option.

    I don’t remember what exactly happened after that, whether I saw her on the bus again a few times, or if I just never did see her again. My hours might have changed, I might have started catching a different bus… or she could well have changed her habits to avoid a potential stalker. Which I wasn’t, but she had no way of knowing.

    Especially after the day I went looking for watch batteries at the local mall, walked into a jewellry store, and she was working behind the counter. I had the strong impression that she fled to the back room and asked her workmate to deal with me… either that, or the workmate was habitually grumpy.

    So, yeah. Even if you’re not actually a creeper, even if you’re just too shy to say hello… it can creep people out. Only thing to do is recognise it and move on. Own up to it.

    And I do not for one second believe there is anyone so socially awkward that they fail to recognise cues that indicate someone doesn’t want them around. In my experience, a truly socially awkward person will be hyper-sensitive to those cues, paranoid that they’ll do something wrong and be shunned for it.

    Touching or hugging someone without permission, especially if they’ve made it clear they’re not interested, isn’t social awkwardness. It’s wilful ignorance.

  211. Gulliver: thank you.

    The bit about politics, sex and religion being inappropriate topics of conversation could probably be further abstracted as “don’t start topics of conversation which are contentious, highly personal, likely to be misinterpreted, or likely to cause arguments”. The “politics, sex and religion” bit is just a very old set of topics which fit into those categories.

  212. Well, to all, and John.

    My BIG concern is that “social awkwardness” and totally innocent, non-stalking, not over-the-line behaviour can be viewed as “creepy” to a lot of people whose frame of reference are “normal” social interactions.

    When they come to geekdom they tend to think, and do say, “what’s wrong with these people” and get very uncomfortable.

    So, my advice to them is: be tolerant, be very tolerant. Geeks tend to be weird and if you freak out because of people acting highly socially awkward you’re going to be a pall over the geek event, disrupting everything.

    Now, not ALL geeks are socially awkward, and not all behavior is acceptable even given geekitude. But you have to go in knowing who you’re meeting.

    Just be mindful.

  213. @ megpie71

    Riffing on a previously mentioned theme, it’s as much about how you say it as what you say. I’ve had many, many conversations about politics with people I knew only slightly better than strangers (i.e. interacted with them more than once, but didn’t really know them as friends) and never run afoul, but I know this is not a universally shared experience. Ultimately I think the best policy is to simply change subjects if the person you’re talking to shows signs of distress, whatever the topic.

  214. Todd: May I assume that you are male? As a female, I know of many events like this. I personally learned many coping techniques to avoid it, so it seldom happens to me, but I see a few and hear about a LOT. Don’t pooh-pooh the existence of the issue, since that pooh-poohing is exactly what creepers depend on for their defense. It’s right up there with “oh it’s not that bad” and “you’re taking this way too seriously” for the sort of response too many people have, and which makes the whole thing SO uncomfortable for women – we fear our issues being ignored almost as much as we fear the issues themselves.

    And even one instance is too many.

  215. scorpius:

    What, like the women who attend cons, for example, who might themselves also be socially awkward?

    I resent the hell out of the fact that a lot of people seem to think that a man creeping on me automatically obligates me to educate them. Women should not have to be on-call etiquette teachers whenever they go outside. Women do not owe men anything beyond basic courtesy, and personal safety trumps basic courtesy every time. If a man is worried that he might creep, he can go to a therapist; he doesn’t need to harass women into Gently Educating Him. That’s a different face on the same concept: that women owe men something, and that men don’t have to consider what women want.

  216. Todd:

    “So despite the carefully gender-neutral language used above , the implication here is that men are sexually harassing female participants at these events in droves.”

    Well, that’s your implication, which I am not responsible for, because among other things you have explicitly chosen to disregard what I wrote in preference to your own interpretation, because apparently you’re fine with throwing out what I say when it doesn’t conveniently fit into your world view. It’s also a poor implication, as in a general sense noting that harassment is a problem does not imply that droves of men are harassers.

    But yeah, Todd, when your point boils down to “Are you really saying what I’ve decided you’re saying after choosing not to consider what you’ve actually said,” you’re gonna have a bad time.

    “Jim Hines, for example, has a permanent section of his website that is dedicated to ‘rape.'”

    You mean the Jim C. Hines who has (to paraphrase him) gone through hundreds of hours of training, become a crisis counselor, educated himself on rape and society, and written articles, stories, and a novel about the subject? He has a section on his personal Web site about rape? Really. I wonder why that might be.

    As for your condescending attempt to minimize Jim by calling him a beta male, and putting into scare quotes a phrase which if you put it into Google appears precisely nowhere, followed by standard-issue boilerplate sexism about ugly female bloggers: Dude, you should know better to bring that sort of pathetically weak sauce to this site.

    “In short, it seems that we have wandered a bit from the original incident into what looks suspiciously like an AGENDA.”

    Well, yes, Todd. When you disregard what people say in preference to what you imagine them saying because it fits your pre-established worldview, go out of your way to attempt to insult men who have gone out of their way to learn about and actively combat sexual assault, and minimize the reports of women who have been harassed by suggesting they are too ugly for men to have bothered to harass them, then of course it looks like there’s an AGENDA. Funny how that is.

    Todd, normally I would have simply deleted a comment like yours, because it’s just so appallingly dumb that it’s not worth allowing into the discourse. But I’ve decided to let your comment stand as testimony to the sort of kindergarten-level “thinking” that goes on around this subject in certain quarters of mandom. Congratulations. However, don’t bother responding, since one A+ crap post from you on this thread is rather more than enough.

  217. @Gulliver: I think you’re right. I’ve been unconsciously putting this discussion in a context other than that for which it was intended. My brain just connected this directly to the recent controversy and turned it into a list of behaviors that will get you banned, which clearly wasn’t the idea. My fault. Several of us have raised concerns about the innocuous and well-meaning person who is labeled “creeper,” but on closer reading I’m confident that’s nothing resembling what people here are discussing.

    I would point out, in response to several of the comments about the nature of “creeping” and manipulating people’s deep-seated social mores, is neither limited to sexual interactions nor to sociopaths. These behaviors are taught every day to sales trainees. Get close, hammer past your target’s defenses, don’t take no for an answer, keep them talking as long as possible, assume a position of intimacy and familiarity. It’s all based on the knowledge that most people have been taught to be deferential and polite, and that makes it difficult to say no. Teaching is not necessarily required – a lot of people intuit these things themselves, but others are taught – that’s essentially what “seduction techniques” are, and people have made a bunch of money from teaching seduction. Some humans are terrible people.

  218. John–I saw you trying to make that distinction, I did. In the end, though, I think you might be preaching to the choir. :-) I do see a lot of people in comments struggling to justify or debate the rules, though. I hope all of those people will experience a moment of clarity, stop arguing with the rules, and just follow them.

    For those who are afraid to “talk” to women they don’t know for fear of being perceived as creepy: yes, you got it. You are not entitled to just go up and “talk” to strange women. You have to do a careful dance of introductions first. You can’t skip the steps. Some of creeping comes from wanting to skip steps and get straight to the sex part as quickly as possible. Being at the convention for business purposes and NOT to hook up, and then having to deal with people who are singlemindedly trying to get laid is very upsetting.

  219. There is something that I think socially awkward guys may be misconstruing. People know there is a difference between intentionally ignoring people’s boundaries and cluelessly overstepping them without realizing it. John didn’t write this list for the the former group. They already know what they’re doing wrong, and simply don’t see it as wrong because they’re self-centered spoiled sociopaths who feel entitled to the attention, appreciation and sometimes more of others. The list is for the well-meaning but socially clueless latter group. And it’s an easy to follow list for how not to accidentally make others fear you might be one of the former. Following it is a way of letting others know you’re not a threat. It will increase your social capital, not cramp your style. As others have pointed out, most of us learn this at an early age. Some don’t, and there’s no shame in that. Some people do partial differential equations in their head at an early age, others do not. But if someone gave you an easy How To FAQ for becoming a math whiz as an adult, you wouldn’t be ashamed because you weren’t a child prodigy, you’d just be glad someone made it so simple. Don’t you want people to know you’re not a threat to their safety?

  220. Thanks, John. As per usual, when it comes to feminism, it’s nice to see a male ally who gets it. For anyone who wants further reading on the topic of “Don’t Be That Guy,” with bonus excellent, heavily-moderated comments, I recommend synecdochic’s Dreamwidth entry,

  221. Are attractive people even capable of creeping? Seems every situation described involves the overweight male with unkempt facial hair and a lack of deodorant. Horace does raise a good point that this article doesn’t really apply to the intentional creeper. Not because it isn’t good advice, but because they don’t care. Seems the hints are really only useful to the socially awkward types that just don’t know what is and is not appropriate.

  222. > now that I think about it, tends to offer hugs when *parting ways* with someone he’s been talking to

    I’m also a hug person, and I think this is critical.

    I’ll hug people I have a hugging relationship with when I see them for the first time on a day, or when saying goodbye. But I’d *never* hug someone new upon meeting them, unless they initiated it. And I’d *offer* a hug on departure to someone I didn’t already have a hugging relationship with … but I would want it to be their choice, whether to take me up on it or not.

    This strikes me as just being basic etiquette. The notion that there are people who don’t behave this way horrifies me.

  223. @ Kilroy

    Are attractive people even capable of creeping?

    Yes. Being a knock-out doesn’t entitle you to harass others.

  224. @ Gulliver: The idea of creeping involves giving unwanted attention and ignoring the clues that it is unwanted. Brad Pitt is probably not capable of being a creeper without stepping into criminal activity to make the attention unwanted.

  225. @ Kilroy

    Why do you believe everyone, or even every woman, would want Brad Pitt’s attention?

  226. @Kilroy: There’s a LOT more to welcome attention than mere physical attractiveness.

  227. Kilroy:

    “Are attractive people even capable of creeping?”

    You appear to be making the assumption that attractiveness is purely defined by physical characteristics. Conventionally good-looking people can be profoundly unattractive based on their personalities or other personal traits; people who are not conventionally good-looking can be intensely attractive for the same reasons.

    As for whether good-looking people can be creepers: Yup.

  228. If you define attractive as attractive personality, that person never creeps. If you define attractive as physically attractive, that person rarely if ever (never) gets the blow off. But physical appearance is a huge part of creeperdom and usually a prerequisite. And I’m sure Brad Pitt has a beautiful personality and is not just superficially attractive.

  229. @ Kilroy: “Are attractive people even capable of creeping?”

    Oh, hell yes. There’s a whole sub-set of creepiness that involves attractive people who think everyone wants whatever attention they want to give them.

  230. As the commenter who brought up the issue of different concepts of personal space, I should have included something along the lines of “But that’s no excuse,” because it is not. I apologize for the omission, and wish to plead incompetent.

    (closes barn door gently, resumes lurking)

  231. Kilroy:

    “But physical appearance is a huge part of creeperdom and usually a prerequisite.”

    Says who? I mean, other than you? I’ve seen my fair share of creepers, at conventions and outside of them; they’ve run the spectrum of physical attractiveness, as far as I could see. Likewise, decent humans are arrayed across the entire physical attractiveness spectrum as well.

    In any event, you’re making a category error, in assuming that people who are “attractive” — however one wishes to define that term — cannot engage in creepy behavior simply by dint of being attractive. This is entirely false. Someone can be good-looking, charming and generally a delight to be around, and also offering entirely unwanted attention to someone who wishes they would go away. If that superattractive person doesn’t go away, they’re creeping just as much as Unwashed Yeti Dude would, should UYD be engaging in the same sort of activity.

  232. Watching an actor I found amazingly hot (before that point) joke about sexual assault in an interview?

    Ayup. That was pretty damn creepy.

    Attractive people are totally capable of being creepers, and I think trying to draw the conversation towards “It’s just about whether or not someone is attractive!” is another one of those attempts to move the blame away from the people doing blame-worthy things. I’ve been hit on by unattractive men in a non-creepy manner. There is a hell of a lot more to “creepy” than “received signs of potential sexual interest from someone I’m not attracted to” or we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

  233. @Gulliver: The issue of whether an explanation is mandatory or advisory, again, misses the point that “because it makes me uncomfortable” is an explanation. The person who says this has already gone above and beyond to provide an explanation of why they politely told the other person to cut it out. The argument that the creeper can learn no other way besides on-the-spot Social Skills 101 from the creep-ee is ridiculous. (And it’s also back to thinking the #1 problem is carefully protecting the feelings of the socially awkward, rather than stopping creepers or protecting people from being creeped on.)

    Also, “Why?” is an ambiguous question. It’s not clear whether it means “Why am I making you uncomfortable?” rather than “Why should I stop?” Refusing to accept another person’s right to say ‘no’, requiring the other person to justify their ‘no’ and making oneself the judge of whether those justifications are acceptable, demanding that strangers justify their refusal to interact with oneself – creepy.

    @49th:

    1) Of course it is a real problem. Keep in mind, though, there are also people who aren’t well-meaning but anxious, who hide behind “Gosh, I just can’t possibly figure out how to behave!” when called on actual, deliberate creepitude, people who sigh dramatically and ask “Is flirting at cons not okay anymore?” at criticism of deliberate creeping. In other words, people who pretend to be like you as a cover for justifying their actions, not for changing their situation.

    2) People who are socially awkward, inexperienced or impaired benefit from clear social rules that they can apply quickly in a majority of situations. That is why Scalzi, Captain Awkward and others discuss such concrete rules. “Give the other person enough personal space” can, by itself be confusing (what’s ‘enough’?), but “Stand an arm’s length away” is very clear and easy to judge. Similarly, “don’t touch” and “see if the other person has a path to get away from you” are pretty straightforward. None of these require eye contact, reading social cues or guessing at the other person’s reaction.

    3) If you are not innately good at social stuff, you will need to devote part of your brain’s processing power to keeping an eye on these things. This is true well beyond the “creeper” issue; it’s something socially-awkward people have to deal with in everything from business meetings to waiting in line. It’s not a lot of fun, but it gets easier with time and practice.

    4) If you find yourself so anxious that you cannot, without terror, imagine interacting with others in a non-likely-to-be-creepy way, then get assistance from friends, professionals, good sources on the Internet or other people who can help you with specific problems.

    Also?

    5) Please don’t make assumptions about how good I personally am at eye contact, small talk, reading social cues or innately understanding rules of behavior. When you say that I clearly must have all these boss-level social skills you lack, you’re not just making poor assumptions; you’re putting yourself in the role of Nobody Understands Me. That is going to get in the way of your fixing the problem, and it’s going to get in the way of your positively interacting with others who have had your problem and found ways to solve it.

  234. Dont know if it’s come up yet, but there is a very simple and very important rule to remember:

    NO means NO.

    Not “yes”. Not “maybe”. Not “Chase me”. Not “Touch me”. Not “Follow me around until I lose my temper or break down crying”. It means NO

  235. +1 @Bearpaw. And in this case I’m thinking of people with attractive personalities who may or may not be good-looking.

    I keep running into That Guy who’s a really fun, smart, interesting, witty person when he’s talking to the group at large or to friends. And the moment he notices someone who makes him go “oh, shiny!” *gleam in eye*, BANG. The attractive personality is replaced by the creeper. It’s flattering for the exact amount of time it takes for the target to realize that boundaries are being ignored.

  236. @Kilroy: I would say if that someone is attractive to me personally, they’re going to get a larger degree of latitude in boundary-crossing, but it’s not infinite, and “attractive to me personally” != “a winner in People’s yearly Most Attractive Life Form In The Universe reader survey”. I can recall several specific incidents in my past where I was utterly turned off by very attractive guys because they came on way, way too hard without any regard to whether or not I seemed to be responding. People who are both very conventionally attractive AND are very socially adept do have a huge advantage and probably get more tolerance for the few mistakes they do make, but it’s a tough old world.

  237. Of course I’m just going off of my own personal experience. Isn’t everyone here? At least I haven’t seen citations to detailed case studies that lend support to anyone’s arguments. But the point has already been beaten to death. Think it is pretty well established that men are more visually stimulated than women, so I can limit the argument to attractive women are likely unable to be creepers and that attractive men need to be a lot creepier than unattractive men in order to be considered a creeper.

  238. Kiroy: – you are so off the mark. Do you imagine that all the creepees are simply playing hard to get, and simply waiting for an “attractive” person (however defined) to stick their hand down their shirt and say “how about it”?

    It’s not about the apparent desirability or otherwise of the creeper – its about the creeper insisting that their needs to talk/hug/stroke/get jiggy outweigh the needs, wishes and priorities of the creepee.

    If the most beautiful, witty and wealthy creeper in the world tries to monopolise my attention in the coffee shop where I write, even after I have told them that I am working to a 3pm deadline, they are demonstrating that they have no real interest in me or my wishes or my comfort or my safety.

  239. @Kilroy, I don’t remember which comedian originally made the crack about “women wouldn’t be complaining if it were Brad Pitt doing the same thing” (Chris Rock possibly?), but you know, to the extent that joke was ever funny, it was a lot funnier when they did it. You’re now in the position of That Guy at the party trying to repeat some joke he kind of remembers hearing in a Tosh.0 routine and mangling it so badly nobody could get why you thought it was funny.

  240. Preface: I am lazy and impatient, so I have skipped the vast majority of comments already posted. If you made my point already, thank you. If someone made a point somewhat-almost-barely similar to mine and got yelled at, please do not yell at me for their comment, and thank you.

    I think that there are two groups of people who should read this guide: the socially awkward and actual, genuine creeps. I also think it’s impossible to understate the fact that those are two different groups of people. I believe that those two distinct groups exist because I place myself firmly in the first, and want to visit violence and lecturing upon the second for all the grief they have caused others and the stigma they visit upon geekdom by pulling their stupid crap at geek events. I also think that an important difference between those two groups is that the socially awkward *want* help and want to read this guide, while the genuine creeps will refuse.

    Throughout my schooling years I was a bumbling idiot when it came to social, well, everything. I was shy, quiet, awkward, into all the weird things that you got picked on and beat up for being into, and generally just didn’t have many friends. Oh, and being the youngest of three, my folks dediced they pretty much knew what they were doing and totally phoned it in most of the time they were raising me. And did I mention that this was before the Internet was the big, almost-universally-available thing that it is today? Figuring out how to interact with other people with the optimal result of “don’t hate/hit me for being a nerd” was a messy, not-fun, long trial-and-error process.

    I mention all of that because I want to make it clear that I had a somewhat rough go of interacting with people for a while, and it would have been nice to have some sort of guide or list of pointers or maybe just somebody nice enough to sit me down and say “hey, you’re doing it all wrong, quit being a spaz and do [list] and you’ll make friends in no time.” I wanted that. I’m not going to say that I needed it, because I managed to work it out eventually, but it could have saved me a few disappointing moments here and there.

    At this point in time, I don’t really care for social interaction beyond my wife and my handful of close friends. Being happily married, I treat women in most situations exactly like men – I’m not courting and I’ve got enough friends that I don’t have to go bugging people to like me. So in any given situation I’m going to ignore most of the people around me unless I need to interact with them. At conventions, I’ll admire cosplay from afar, but I’m mainly there for swag and to maybe – just maybe – briefly meet or even get a signature from somebody really famous and really cool whose works I admire.

    Like I said, I’ve pretty much got the basics down, and my personal system of “speak only when first spoken to” with strangers is a good catch-all, but boy, younger-me sure could have used some guidance to not be a fumbling idiot. Sadly, I don’t think this is quite it. Keep reading before you react with the snarkiness and the all-caps-typing and whatnot. Maybe it’s the well-documented fact that text doesn’t carry subtlety and nuance as well as spoken word, but some of this guide came off as condescending, and I think it’s important that for the truly awkward, bumbling goofs like young-me, that we don’t speak down to them. These are the folks who genuinely want something like this guide because they really want to learn how to interact with other live, in-person human beings, and they’re probably genuinely afraid of coming off like complete jerks in addition to being awkward, and when their learning process has been like mine was, it really isn’t any fun for them, either. Maybe a gentler touch is needed, and I really don’t know if that kind of thing is out there, and I guess if it’s not then maybe somebody (maybe me, who knows) should write up a more pleasant social primer for the truly socially inept who want help.

    But I got the sense while reading this that even if it was written in response to someone asking sincerely for advice coming from the position of an awkward geek, it turned into something that was written *to* the creepy jerkwads. It’s your blog, John (may I call you John?) so I’m not saying “you shouldn’t have written it that way!” My concern is that it might have been an exercise in futility, because insomuch as I feel like it was addressed to creepy jerkfaces, I think we all know that those creepy jerkfaces aren’t going to read it. They know they’re being creepy jerkfaces and they either don’t care or they outright revel in how crappy they make other people feel. These are the same kinds of people who bullied me for years, and their most common reaction to “you shouldn’t act like that” is to say “I’ll act however I want to act” and keep right on being bullies.

    Basically, I think that we should all maybe keep in mind that socially-inept nerds are not the same as actaul creeper jerks. We can take these creeper jerks out of these geeky settings and drop them into offices, sports bars, charity functions, whatever, and they’re still going to be creeper jerks. If we want the world to take geekdom seriously as a community then I think it is on us to take our awkward young nerdlings and make sure they’re properly socialized, in much the same way as you’d make sure a puppy gets plenty of time around other dogs. If, as a community, we can provide positive guidance, then we can also eventually maintain a safe atmosphere at our gatherings and when a creeper rears its ugly head everyone (geek or not) can be sure that that creeper doesn’t represent geek culture, and that being a creeper is not a thing that geek culture is OK with. I think taking those awkward nerdlings under our wings and teaching them without punishing them for what actual creepers do is key, though, because conflating the two and presenting it as “if you don’t know how to talk to people you’re a creep” seems dreadfully counterproductive.

  241. When I was a young tube-traveller in London in the 70s, there was a spate of gropers. It was almost a given that any young or youngish woman not firmly sitting on her butt would have it fondled by some arsewipe type on the tube every time it was crowded.. There was no overt campaign, but the behaviour that killed it for some years was very simple – if you felt a hand, you reached round and lifted it up, while calling in a pleasant but LOUD voice “Groper”. At this, all the people who were quick, in the know, or could follow a lead, would clap and whistle loudly.. I have seen people (sorry, men) lie on the floor to get away from this.. I think it must have worked, because I seldom got groped after a while..

    We need to back each other up, folks, nice people need to look after the other nice people when the not-nice are in town…

  242. @ mythago

    The issue of whether an explanation is mandatory or advisory, again, misses the point that “because it makes me uncomfortable” is an explanation. The person who says this has already gone above and beyond to provide an explanation of why they politely told the other person to cut it out.

    Sorry, I took Jennifer’s meaning to be that it can be helpful (though not the least bit obligatory) to explain to a socially awkward person what they are doing that is creepy, not why it creeps the creep-ee out, which no one should ever have to explain to anyone ever because it’s none of their damn business. Perhaps I misunderstood Jennifer’s meaning and you are correct about what she meant.

    Let me put it this way: if a friend of mine is doing something that is creeping me out without meaning to, I’ll tell them what they’re doing that’s making me uncomfortable. I’d be well within my just rights to tell them to simply leave me alone, but that may not be what I want. Creep-ees should feel free to be left alone or to correct the behavior as they see fit. I don’t buy the idea that their only moral choice is to say nothing or shun the creeper completely. Those are options, but they should not be the only options a creep-ee is told they can exercise.

    @ Kilroy

    Think it is pretty well established that statistically men are more visually stimulated than women on average

    Fixed that for you.

  243. Kilroy:

    “I can limit the argument to attractive women are likely unable to be creepers”

    I have knowledge in my own personal sphere of actual humans I know that directly contradicts this argument.

    Beyond this, you appear to be making the assumption that heterosexual men are so turned around by a woman’s physical attractiveness that all other considerations fall to the wayside. This is an interesting hypothesis, and as I note, one that in my own immediate realm of experience is provably false.

    I think you’re probably better off simply not trying to correlate physical attractiveness and creeperism.

  244. Tanya: walking up to you and sticking their hand down your shirt isn’t creeping, that’s sexual battery. I don’t think that is the level of activity that this story is geared towards.

    As far as the most beautiful, witty, and wealthy guy to comes up to you in the coffee shop when you have a deadline… really?

  245. @Gulliver: Nobody has said that the creep-ee’s “only moral choice” is shunning or saying nothing (at least, if they did, I missed it). I’m a little puzzled that your take-away was the idea that it is morally wrong for someone to choose to try and explain why they don’t like something. (I do think you are misreading Jennifer’s comment, particularly given that her last sentence offers a false dilemma that puts all of the responsibility on creep-ees and none on creep-ers.)

    Re your second paragraph, you’re talking about social interactions between friends, which is different than social interactions between strangers. With a friend, you already have a social bond and willingness to interact. The context is quite different. For one thing, if you cease all interaction with them you’re ending the friendship; ceasing all interaction with a stranger is simply refusing to progress one’s acquaintance with that person beyond what it already is. Giving advice to friends is different from giving advice to strangers, particularly strangers who are behaving badly.

  246. Not all other considerations. Obviously doesn’t apply to the loyal married male. And I’m also not talking correlation, but causation. Take the Readercon situation and replacement victim with average single male and replace creeper with 8 or higher attractive female. The situation never unfolds.

  247. I am in physical therapy from the student throwing a 4-foot by 6-foot metal table onto me, in retaliation for my reporting him in writing for sexually harassing one of the young ladies in my classroom. The student-creeper would show up in class stoned, and grab her and kiss her while she shouted “No!” That was in May 2011. I am still in serious pain. I did the right thing. I would do it again.

  248. @ mythago

    Nobody has said that the creep-ee’s “only moral choice” is shunning or saying nothing (at least, if they did, I missed it). I’m a little puzzled that your take-away was the idea that it is morally wrong for someone to choose to try and explain why they don’t like something. (I do think you are misreading Jennifer’s comment, particularly given that her last sentence offers a false dilemma that puts all of the responsibility on creep-ees and none on creep-ers.)

    I think perhaps I misunderstood the gist of the discussion between Jennifer and yourself. It was twelve hours ago, during most of which I was working on math problems that have fried my brain, so I have to admit I don’t clearly remember, but sorry if I defended a position you weren’t criticizing.

    Giving advice to friends is different from giving advice to strangers, particularly strangers who are behaving badly.

    I agree. I just wanted to make sure the message wasn’t that creep-ees who choose to edify unintentional creepers are somehow enabling their behavior. If that’s not an issue, then I retract me argument.

  249. Kilroy:

    The fact that you have to keep retreating and qualifying your argument to make it viable should be a very strong indicator to you of its inherent weakness. You’ve already narrowed it to the point where it would apply only to very few people in a highly contingent circumstance. And even then, if you think a normal single dude could not find a random albeit hot woman he doesn’t know putting her arm around him and propositioning him with no previous interaction between them unsettling or creepy, you’re flat wrong. As a single man, I would have definitely found that shit creepy.

    Kilroy, inasmuch as you’ve now whittled your point down to irrelevance, this is me telling you it’s time for you to let it go, please.

  250. I like to use the analogy of selling t-shirts.
    Let’s say you are at an event, in this case, an event you paid good money to attend. There are vendor booths and if you want, you can go up to them and buy things. You might be there to spend money, you might not be. That’s great, either way.
    But let’s say you pass up the vendor booths and you are, instead, trying to listen to a speaker, or talk with some people, and someone comes up to you and starts trying to sell you t-shirts. You politely decline. They persist. They start showing you the craftsmanship, the printing, the wide range of sizes. You more firmly say no, maybe walk away. What if they start following you, maybe somewhere away from the crowd?
    Now imagine this happens repeatedly, by different vendors, in different places and maybe your friend has the same thing happen to him only one time, the vendor decided to just take your friend’s wallet when he said no. And what if, some of the times you say no, the vendor starts getting mad, asking why you are so cheap and why you think you are too good to wear t-shirts and you can’t quite tell if they are just letting off steam or about to take your wallet?
    Even if the people doing this represent 1% of the attendees, or less, do you really feel comfortable at the event? Would anyone argue that we really need to protect that vendor’s right to make a living even if it’s driving people away from the event?
    We are all grown ups here. We constantly tailor our language, dress and behavior for the situation we are in. We don’t act, dress and speak the same way at a funeral that we would at a pool party. We speak differently in a job interview than we do at a family gathering. Pretending that sexual pursuit is the one area where people cannot be expected to consider other people’s feelings is just insulting to all parties involved.

  251. I just wanted to make sure the message wasn’t that creep-ees who choose to edify unintentional creepers are somehow enabling their behavior.

    I may not have expressed it well, but correct, that’s not the argument. I personally think it’s a counterproductive strategy in the face of intentional creepers, or those who will react defensively rather than consider whether they were in fact unintentionally creepy, but if somebody wants to make the effort, hey, that’s not my business.

    Though I do strongly disagree with the idea that edifying creep-ees is not simply optional, but the best option and one exercised by all right-thinking, kindly people, because otherwise unintentional creepers are doooooomed. That particular idea is simply a euphemistic version of “God, don’t be such a bitch, he didn’t mean it.”

  252. Gulliver: the bad news is that the school’s assistant principles told me: “You don’t have to press charges.” The good news is that I did, and the creeper was convicted of criminal Assault & Battery.

  253. I didn’t read all the comments — but its not just males. Outside of fandom — the stereotypical “cougars” who are out to prove their face lifts and boob lifts are justification for hitting on guys, grabbing at guys, etc. who really aren’t into banging women their mom’s age. In fandom — the “kilt checkers” and “faux femdoms” who grab at guys and do stuff that a male would be arrested for. (By “faux”, a person who is actually in the BDSM community knows about consent and is respectful of boundaries). Serioulsy…how is the excuse of “he’s wearing a kilt, if he didn’t want me to check his gear he wouldn’t wear a kilt” somehow acceptable. If you ask, sure, but that is respect and consent. It all boils down to keep your damn distance and remembering the world doesn’t revolve around your wants and needs. Ask.

  254. Thank you.

    The only thing I’d add to the list, but it’s been a fairly important thing to me, is this: there is no transitive property with people. Don’t assume that someone’s willing to banter or touch or sleep with you just because they’re willing to do the same thing to others.

    Some of my male friends can, indeed, make really lewd comments to me, pull me into their laps, pick me up, and so forth, and it’ll be fine and fun. This isn’t because I’m sleeping with them or want to–in some cases, I am or do, in some cases, I don’t–but because I’ve known them for a while, and our particular friendship supports working blue, or flirty, or even the odd one-night stand. And also, because I like doing that sort of thing with them, and I don’t like doing it with you, and YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DEMAND OTHERWISE.

    This is important. Because A can come up behind me and put his arms around my waist, and B can make “oh, bend over, baby” jokes when I tie my shoe, and I’m really not concealing my positive reaction there, but if C breaks out the stupid innuendo or randomly puts a hand on my back because he wants attention, I want him to fuck off and die, and odds are decent that I’ll say so. And if C starts getting whiny, all “…but those guys…” then there’s going to be a shitstorm, because…no. No transitive property. Figure it out.

    And the “because he wants attention” thing has brought up, Spanish-Inquisition-style, another point: for the love of God, do not poke people when you want attention. Not even non-sexually. If you need someone to move and you’ve tried a vocal request a few times, maybe a light touch on the shoulder; otherwise, no.

    First of all, I don’t owe you attention. If I’m reading, or napping, or talking to someone else, I pretty obviously don’t want to *give* you attention, so don’t demand it. (Don’t demand it verbally either, for that matter: jumping into a conversation all “Oh hi let’s talk about something else now” or calling someone’s name repeatedly when the situation isn’t time-sensitive might not be creepy, per se, but it’s sure as hell not making anybody like you. In fact, “stop demanding stuff from acquaintances” is a pretty good principle to go on.)

    Second…well, second, keep your hands to yourself, because we are not four years old here.

    /rant

  255. Serioulsy…how is the excuse of “he’s wearing a kilt, if he didn’t want me to check his gear he wouldn’t wear a kilt” somehow acceptable.

    It isn’t, and happily, conventions and social gatherings that have strong anti-harassment policies and treat harassment as a serious offense don’t accept those excuses. See, the thing about not tolerating creepers and respecting boundaries and expecting people to be decent instead of making excuses for them? That applies to women, too.

  256. @ mythago

    Though I do strongly disagree with the idea that edifying creep-ees is not simply optional, but the best option and one exercised by all right-thinking, kindly people, because otherwise unintentional creepers are doooooomed.

    I too disagree with that, and if I gave any impression to the contrary, I apologize.

    @ Johnathan Vos Post

    the bad news is that the school’s assistant principles told me: “You don’t have to press charges.”

    I wish that surprised me.

    The good news is that I did, and the creeper was convicted of criminal Assault & Battery.

    That is a relief. And it’s sad that we live in a society where that is a relief and not the minimum expected outcome.

  257. @ Kilroy. Yes. Really. NOTHING is a bigger turn off than someone – anyone – whose ego can’t wait an hour while I turn in a piece of work that I have spent 3 years researching and crafting.

    This is not hypothetical. This is reportage.

  258. John, you wrote this:
    itsathought2:

    “Because not doing so is ridiculous.”

    Actually, it’s not. I would agree it’s useful to be told. But it’s not the harassee’s obligation, and placing an obligation on the person being harassed means that we’re back to giving the harasser a pass as long as he’s not directly confronted. And, you know. That’s crap.

    I think you’re way off base on this one. The very first rule you post says:

    1. Acknowledge that you are responsible for your own actions. You are (probably) a fully-functioning adult. You probably are able to do all sorts of things on your own — things which require the use of personal judgement. Among those things: How you relate to, and interact with, other human beings, including those who you have some interest in or desire for. Now, it’s possible you may also be socially awkward, or have trouble reading other people’s emotions or intentions, or whatever. This is your own problem to solve, not anyone else’s. It is not an excuse or justification to creep on other people. If you or other people use it that way, you’ve failed basic human decency.

    The converse of this would seem to me to be:

    1. Acknowledge that you are responsible for your own actions. You are (probably) a fully-functioning adult. You probably are able to do all sorts of things on your own — things which require the use of personal judgement. Among those things: How you relate to, and interact with, other human beings, including those who you have NO interest in or desire for. Now, it’s possible you may also be socially awkward, or have trouble reading other people’s emotions or intentions, or have difficulty with confrontation. This is your own problem to solve, not anyone else’s. It is not an excuse or justification to not insist on what you need from other people.”

    Autonomy must work both ways, or it’s meaningless. In situations (e.g. most of Western Civilization) where the power differential is too great between women and men, women have the right to bring other people into given situations to even things up: “While you take in the sight of my six foot four bodybuilder friend here, allow me to let you know that if you don’t back off, there will be consequences.”

    This is not to say that women have an obligation to mentor creepers into civility, only that women are obligated to express their needs themselves by any means necessary. Everyone is obligated to express their needs, and expecting others to simply know those expectations and needs is a sure way to set up negative outcomes. Most times, there is a reasonable expectation of everyone having a common standard of behavior, but in the event that this is demonstrated to not be the case, people have an obligation to call the bad behavior out. If a person incorrectly believes they are acting right, or thinks they can get away with it, they must be disabused, and no one can do that for anyone else.

  259. @Scott, sorry, you’re not making sense. Is the problem that the creep-ee has an obligation to be clear? If so, then “please don’t touch me again” is enough, right? I don’t need to haul in a huge bodybuilder boyfriend to emphasize the point?

    And isn’t it curious that the ‘socially awkward’ and clueless suddenly, miraculously can read the social signal of a looming bodybuilder dude. Somehow, their inability to read people vanishes, and they are absolutely capable of perceiving the social message of the bodybuilder dude glaring at them, or putting an affectionate arm around the creep-ee, or moving to stand between the creep-ee and creep-er.

  260. @Tanya: Yep.

    I mean, if I found the person attractive *and* he’d approached respectfully and charmingly (which I guess feeds into the first bit), he’d get a “Sorry, I really need to finish this–will you be around in an hour or so?” and someone else would get “Sorry, busy.”

    And if I were Stephen King, I wouldn’t have to write book synopses. What’s the point?

    Also? Think it is pretty well established that men are more visually stimulated than women,

    Sigh:
    http://listoftheday.blogspot.com/2011/03/8-sex-myths-you-shouldnt-believe-of-day.html
    http://aloftyexistence.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/men-more-visual-than-women/

    Would you like to cite a study or something, rather than throwing around sexism with an “it’s pretty well established” prefix?

    The men-are-more-visual angle is based almost entirely on reporting, which ignores societal pressure to report one way or another, as well as the fact that society caters far more to men physically. It’s Dr. Phil bullshit (…like most Dr. Phil things) which gets used to excuse harassment by men (…as you’re doing here, thanks) and to shame women into “not being shallow” or “giving him a chance, because he’s a nice guy and a great provider.”

    It offends me, and it pisses me off.

    For the record.

  261. @ mythago

    It’s remarkable how many of these little misunderstandings clears right up when the risk tables are turned, isn’t it?

  262. As far as the Asperger’s/socially inept excuse – I know some people who have Asperger’s and have worked with people that had schizophrenia. While both these groups lacked social skills, they could be told (and in fact, the Aspies I know like to be told) when they were doing something that made people uncomfortable or was annoying. It can be a little awkward at first, but they’re pretty nice about it. I think the problem people have is you gotta be fairly blunt and our (. These people don’t take hints or social cues, so you have to actually day “Please don’t do X” or “Could you please step back a couple steps? You’re crowding me”. By telling them nicely, you’re actually helping them learn more social skills.

    As a woman about the size of our Olympic gymnastic team who looks like she’s 18, I have been in plenty of uncomfortable situations where I didn’t stand up for myself cause I was shy, scared, or didn’t want to hurt someone else’s feelings (never mind my feelings of course). I’m working on that though, because while I might briefly feel a little badly about hurting someone’s feelings, I feel a lot worse about myself for a lot longer when I don’t stand up for myself.

  263. Scott:

    No. Human interactions are not bound by the laws of physics, by which every action is required to have an equal and opposite reaction, and your “converse” requires someone at the shallow end of a power dynamic to invest equal energy into assuring someone else leaves her be. Again: That’s crap.

    No one should have to invest energy into making it clear to others that they shouldn’t harass them. Not being harassed should be the ground state.

    “This is not to say that women have an obligation to mentor creepers into civility”

    Then stop saying they do, please.

  264. @ isabelcooper

    It offends me too, but I didn’t have the studies to back up my intuition that I wasn’t just a statistical anomaly. Thanks for bringing the artillery to bear.

  265. The problem I have with #1 is that awkward people have behaviours that they aren’t in control of. Like appropriate levels of eye contact, like body language, all that kind of thing. Those things can be intensely creepy.

    Socially awkward people tend to go out of their way to NOT be creepy or offensive, but that can be creepy in and of itself. Too much eye contact is unpleasant, but too little can send the wrong message too (and avoiding eye contact can easily be mistaken for staring at someone’s chest).

    Ultimately, for socially awkward people it doesn’t matter what they do or how hard they try – they’re going to make other people uncomfortable. The only way around it is to sequester themselves away from society.

  266. The Captain Awkward post has a premise that I disagree with, along with #3 of your post (partially). The Captain Awkward premise is “we have this friend.” Not just a “a guy at a con”, but “a friend.” In fact, in the “creeper” story, its a guy that’s divorced, having issues, etc. If this is “a friend”, then instead of nodding and laughing in front of him and then bitching behind his back, you should snatch him up by the stacking swivel and say “dude, this is how people see you, if you keep don’t change this behavior we’re not going to have you hang out with us.” That is what FRIENDS do. I fully agree its not everyone’s job to tell a creeper to stop being a creeper. But if this guy is a friend and people are being “too polite” or “too nice” (ie, “weak, stupid, and petty”) to tell the guy (or girl) to their face they are screwing up, they are failing at the large print of the term “friend”. Further, if you are laughing or otherwise going along with it to their face, then you are sending a clear message that you are ok with the actions and he’s doing fine. After all, what that person sees is what he has for feedback. Being “too nice” or “too polite” is lying to the guy, encouraging him, and reinforcing the behavior.

    Stuff happens. A guy that is used to acting a certain way in one setting may find its not acceptable in another. A person can just be reading signals wrong (especially in fandom). The person *is* responsible for their own actions, but this applies EQUALLY to everyone else. If you are laughing along, you’re approving it no matter what you say later. If he is a friend, then be a friend and say something.

    Besides, in reading some of these comments here and on the Captain Obvious one, it seems that some people consider a person a “creeper” if he is unattractive/undesired but is doing the same behavior as someone else that is attractive, in which case the “creeper” is just messing with the mating dance for that person. If (*IFF*) the guy or girl is looking around, seeing what others are doing, and is trying it…and is just not wanted by that person, that’s not “creeping”. Its “striking out,” at least as long as they take the rejection and move on. Being socially inept in not limited to males. Women in fandom can also be awkward with respect to responding to attention or lack of attention.

  267. To Dave S and everyone who has brought up the issue of acculturation and personal space:

    That is all the more reason we need posts explaining what that arm’s length or more is the SAFEST course of action in any interaction with a person you don’t know, because people from other cultures generally actively seek out advice on how to behave in a new one, and it makes life easier for all of us if the information is accessible.

    Besides, it’s not always that simple. I had to work with a guy and everyone kept telling me that he just stood so close to me because he was Russian–but I’m pretty sure his being Russian had nothing to do with the way he’d position himself behind my desk at the perfect angle to look down my top. When I found out he was a member of a synagogue I really wanted to join, I mentioned some of this to the Rabbi, who laughed and said nobody really liked this guy. I didn’t join; I would have, if the Rabbi had actually done anything about this jerk.

    re #5 – It’s nice to let the other person control whether or not touching happens, but a lot of people (especially women) have encountered too many people (usually male) who think that once YOU initiate something, you have to keep going along with it until the other party wants to stop, and if you try to get out of that and you get raped, well, you started it. (Hello rape culture.) So, I would advise just asking, especially if you think the other person might like to be touched–because it’s better to know for sure, and because anyone who finds this offensive is someone who probably wants to play games you don’t want to play. Most women (in particular) feel safer; I always thank people for asking first, whether or not I say yes. (Even if I say no, the likelihood that I will say yes after I get to know the other party is much higher after being asked, because this person has just told me that s/he respects my bodily autonomy.)

    Isabel C. – Sadly, guys who believe in “transitive property” are not going to be helped by this essay; they believe that women are either the personal property of one guy/waiting for that guy, or the property of all men everywhere, and they don’t care if they’re creepers! It’s the old Madonna/Whore complex. Even if they apologise, I’m not going to ever be alone with (or let anyone I care about be alone with) someone like that, because harassers are really good at being sorry and terrible at stopping harassing. :(

  268. @Scott: What other people have said.

    To analogize: Say that I’m rooming with someone. I entered into an agreement to share common space. There are certain things in that situation where, yeah, I need to express my preferences. If I need to get up super-early on Wednesdays and thus need Tuesday nights quiet, or the smell of Doritos makes me retch so please don’t eat them in the living room, or whatever, yep, the obligation’s on me to ask.

    I should *not* have to ask Hypothetical Roommate to refrain from 3 AM yelling matches with his girlfriend, downloading weird attachments onto my computer, or pissing on my couch. The dark day might arise when I do need to either ask these things or move out, but first of all, I’m under no obligation to have that conversation rather than going “…okay, I’ve talked to the landlord, enjoy your new ALL OF THE RENT, couch-pisser,” and second, even if I do have those conversations, it does not make my roommate anything but a horrible trainwreck of a human being.

    @Gulliver: Hey, no problem. It’s a topic that comes up occasionally in romance circles, so I have a passing familiarity with the wrongness.

  269. Kilroy:

    Thank you. I appreciate it!

    Mark:

    “Ultimately, for socially awkward people it doesn’t matter what they do or how hard they try – they’re going to make other people uncomfortable. The only way around it is to sequester themselves away from society.”

    Oh, bah. The implication that socially awkward people cannot learn to manage their interactions and/or makes others aware of their circumstances so there is context is absurd, as is the implication that all socially awkward people are socially awkward, or have the same result with their attempts to manage their social interactions. You’re being unduly fatalist here, Mark; I know bunches of socially awkward people who manage this stuff.

  270. An interesting set of conditions:
    * Assume a generally well-behaved geek.
    * Who is socially awkward, additionally with a low charisma score.
    * Who would like to have, as a part of their evening, some adult fun.

    There is a lot of media emphasizing active consent as a part of adult activities (great). But this conflicts with the points listed above and in the comments about avoiding sexual innuendo (or explicit requests). Thus, it seems that there is no way for somebody in such a position to be able to realize their goals.

  271. John, I think you’re mistaking the obligation to say, “I need to be safe, and you’re not making me feel safe.” with saying “Here’s how you can be a better person.” I am specifically, here and now, saying that no one is obligated to make anybody a better person. But every person is obligated to set their own boundaries, and express them. Period. No other definition of autonomy is possible. If you have to be responsible for your actions, then so do I. If my expectations for safety and comfort are violated, then I have to say so. If I don’t say so, and those violations continue, I am responsible. If I have to get other people involved to even up the power differential and correct the situation, that’s perfectly acceptable, but that’s a form of expression, and I have to be the one who does it. No one can do it for me.

    I’m not sure how you can see it any other way. I’m not trying to be difficult. You don’t have to explain if you don’t want to, but I really can’t see it not being a two way street. It either applies to everyone, or it isn’t valid (cf. Kant).

  272. @isabelcooper – I hear you, but I think the idea is that, if the schmuck pisses on the couch, I have to say, “Hey! I thought you knew how to behave. You obviously don’t. Don’t piss on the couch. And by the way, I can’t live with any couch pissers. Get out.” That’s setting boundaries. If the couch pisser pisses on the couch, and I don’t say anything, that’s on me.

    Any of course they’re still a bad person, but I have a responsibility for a given situation if I can’t stand up for myself.

  273. @Gulliver: I will further note that the oft-cited Nature study has a number of flaws, chief among them the selection of “identical sexual stimulus”. But we’re getting off-topic, I suppose.

    @yaeltiferet: Alas, true. And the ones who aren’t creepy gropers tend to be creepy sex-life-policers, too. Sigh.

  274. Scott, at what point is it my responsibility to say to someone “You are making me feel unsafe”?

    Is it when they walk into the room and I feel like there’s something off about them, but they haven’t interacted with me yet?

    Is it when they’re in the same group as me and I feel uncomfortable but they haven’t addressed me directly?

    Is it when they’re speaking to me and I’m uncomfortable?

    Is it when they have me cornered and I’m uncomfortable?

    Is it when they’ve approached me in a location with no one else around and blocked the exit?

    Is it when they start touching me?

    Is it when they start aggressively groping me?

    Is it when they start doing violence to me?

    I would actually like to know at what point you’re saying it’s my responsibility to inform someone that they’re overstepping my boundaries, and at what point they should already know. I’m pretty sure that we’d agree that “aggressively groping” is in the camp of “They should already know not to do this” and that “They just walked into the room” is in the camp of “Probably it’s not worth bringing up,” but how dangerous do things have to get before it stops being MY FAULT that I haven’t expressed my boundaries clearly enough? How much credit do I get if I have social anxiety that makes it hard for me to express boundaries? Do I need to inform people that I have those social anxieties so that they know I may not be able to express myself clearly about boundary violations? Do I have a responsibility to put up a card detailing my boundaries before I go to sleep, so that someone doesn’t assault me in my sleep when I am unable to express my distaste for those actions?

  275. @mythago – Sorry if I was unclear. Yes, once should be enough, but some people don’t get it/think you don’t mean it/think they can get away with it. Occasionally, the threat of violence works wonders. it doesn’t have to be specifically violent, though, just appropriately convincing. Also, in my hypothetical, the bodybuilder was a friend, not a boyfriend per se – more a stand in for any institution/group (i.e. the police, a con board, a group of friends).

  276. @Scott: I don’t think so. I mean, if that happened and I didn’t want to have that conversation, for whatever reason–Couch Pisser would throw a big old whiny fit about his inability to control himself, Couch Pisser is the retaliatory asshat type who would refuse to move out and make my life hell until I got the legal or financial means to make him do so, Couch Pisser also makes meth in his spare time and I think he might stab me–then going to the landlord, explaining the situation, and either moving out in the middle of the night or moving CP’s things out and having the locks changed while he was away seems like a perfectly reasonable option.

    And then telling people on blogs or in person about Bob, oh my God, don’t room with him ever, is totally fine.

    If you don’t know what normal boundaries are by the time you’re an adult, you need not to interact with people unless you have a mediator. They exist for much of society. Explaining them to you is *not* my responsibility unless I’ve signed on to teach Things We All Should’ve Learned In Kindergarten, The Adult Education Class.

  277. Scott:

    “I’m not sure how you can see it any other way.”

    That’s of course fine, but that’s not the same as “there is no other way.” You and I are not in disagreement that it is beneficial if others can articulate boundaries, so you know where they are, and I would encourage people to do just this. But they are not obliged to do so, and in the absence of such guidance, it falls to the individual to be observant and tread lightly.

  278. I don’t think Mark is being “unduly fatalist” at all. That kind of crap is flouncing and it’s victim-blaming. It’s meant to shame people who dislike being creeped on by telling them they’re destroying the lives of the socially awkward.

    And it’s despicable. It’s refusing to own “But I want to act that way without consequences!” It’s using genuinely awkward people (who, you know, WANT to do the right, non-creepy thing) as a human shield. It’s placing the responsibility for fixing social awkwardness not on the socially awkward, but on strangers who don’t even know them and, you know, might themselves not be extroverted social mavens

    @GK: Speaking as someone who is socially awkward yet has hooked up rather a lot at cons? You’re full of shit. It’s not a binary choice between “other people must put up with my behavior, no matter what that behavior is” and FOREVER ALONE. There is context, and there is a process of getting to know people, and there is approaching people in an informed, courteous way that doesn’t push people’s boundaries or force them to be rude to you. If you don’t understand this process? It’s learnable. Mastering the basics, like “don’t touch people just because you have pantsfeelings for them”, is a prerequisite, though.

  279. Somebody threw out what appeared to me to be a red herring saying that prohibitions against sexual harassment covered this issue. They don’t. The issues are related, but a convention isn’t a workplace with 15 or more employees so those rules don’t apply (although some of the training might be useful.) http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-sex.cfm

  280. @Mark: I don’t think John said that the socially awkward should never go out in public or make anyone uncomfortable ever for a fleeting moment. I agree with you, if that was the standard I’d have to stay home for the rest of my life. He specifically said that you cannot use your social awkwardness as a justification for creeping. Personally, I can’t always make appropriate eye contact, my natural speaking voice is overly loud and it’s hard for me to always lower it consciously, and I have the kind of sense of humor where most of the time you not only had to be there, you had to be me. Plus I stand funny, dress funny, etc. These things are only intensely bothersome to others if I insist on remaining near the people who they bother, otherwise people seem to recover from the trauma of my presence pretty quickly. This is where recognizing that “Sometimes people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you,” and acting on “Someone doesn’t want you around? Go away!” comes in.

  281. GK: We aren’t guaranteed to get what we want. That’s sad, but it’s also true. The socially awkward person who wants adult fun but doesn’t know how to go about getting it has two choices: (a) learn, (b) do without.

  282. To further articulate: yes, I *have* to do something, in the sense that letting the couch-pissing continue is the least desirable result ever.

    But there’s “have to do something” in that way–the morally-neutral “this sucks, but inaction is the worst option for me” way–and then there’s “have to do something” in the sense that you’re morally obligated to take a particular route.

    I mean, to de-analogize: I think an eyeroll and “…I have to wash my…space station…” followed by edging away, followed by Cordelia Chase-ing it (“Excuse me, I need to call everyone I know right now.”) with your preferred form of social media *is* setting boundaries. Not directly, and perhaps not nicely, but I don’t think either directness or niceness is obligatory in these situations.

  283. @Andrew Hackard: Right.

    I’ll say it before, and I’ll say it again: I am not wearing a ribbon or attending a rally to support That Guy getting his dick wet. Nor are most people I know. Bringing his lack thereof up as an OMG POTENTIAL TRAGEDY when discussing creeperdom or harassment is, therefore, unlikely to actually help anyone.

  284. @fadeaccompli – I can’t set that for you. If you’re uncomfortable, you should say something. You set your boundaries. Hypothetically, I don’t like to be touched. It makes me feel unsafe. If someone touches me, and I don’t say anything and no one else knows about my aversion, then my feeling unsafe is my responsibility. No one can be expected to read my mind.

    I think I see your point, though. There are some community norms. If those are your norms, and you see them violated, either for yourself, or for others, and you don’t say anything, then that’s a problem. If I see someone being made uncomfortable, and I don’t say anything, that’s a violation of my own standards, because I don’t want to be in an environment where people are made uncomfortable. But I can’t really be certain that I’m doing it for the person being made uncomfortable. I can only say with certainty that I’m doing it for myself.

    Please don’t think that I’m an apologist for creepers, as that’s not my intention. I’m only saying that everyone in a given situation has rights and responsibilities. Sorry if I was unclear.

  285. I think it also bears saying that (as has been pointed out earlier) there are levels here and that ‘your problems aren’t my problem’ goes both ways as long as everyone stays within reasonable social norms. If you’re in a public area and join in an ongoing conversation and something you do or say hits a trigger for someone in the group, you back off and make yourself scarce. You’ve potentially made someone deeply uncomfortable (perhaps you look like someone they’ve had history with or you hit some triggering comment or action that they are particularly sensitive to). I believe that as long as you leave them alone once it becomes clear that things have veered into creepy (from their perspective), their problem isn’t your problem. You do need to have some moderate amount of sensitivity to social cues, but the straw man suggestion that an inadvertent initial action that makes someone uncomfortable goes straight to ‘actionable’ creeptastic doesn’t hold water for me. Interact with people, stay within social norms (see John’s list above), accept that on rare occasions you’ll still hit someone’s problem spots and be sensitive about it when you do and I don’t think you can go too far wrong. Deciding that you can’t go to public events and interact with other humans because you might inadvertently (should be a very rare event for most folks I think) make someone uncomfortable (unless you have a known serious mental health issue…then see carer comments above) is not a reasonable course of action in my mind.

    Of course if you become aware that you’re bothering someone and keep on going (even if the rest of the group is still happy) then you’ve started to climb the creep-o-meter…

  286. #4 is key, in my estimation. Especially as it relates to geek culture. Anyone who has spent enough time trawling through escapist media (with it’s marty sues, and it’s pretty consistently skewed gender politics) as opposed to having real social interactions, and is shoved into a large space full of cosplaying members of the opposite sex is likely in for a hard landing on this lesson.

  287. @Scott: No one can be expected to know that they shouldn’t just touch you? Seriously? The fact that you are talking about how creep-ees should behave and just about zero regarding how creepers should behave is why you’re coming across as an apologist.

    Re the bodybuilder boyfriend: So, again, the problem isn’t that the creeper is incapable of understanding their actions are unwelcome; the problem is that the cost of their actions needs to be escalated to make them stop.

  288. @mythago: I was gonna say: I really don’t think most people go around touching others without some kind of invitation. (Please join me in Verse 3 of “We Are Not Four Years Old (And You Don’t Touch Your Boss, Do You?)”, the extended dance mix.) For anyone who functions as an adult in normal society, that’s a relatively easy concept. Like, look around. Do you see people–even on really crowded trains–touching other people they’ve talked to for a minute and a half? No? Then don’t do that shit.

    Basically: it is not my responsibility to set boundaries that any functional adult can figure out from three minutes of observing the world around them.

  289. @isabelcooper – I hear you. Not that you need my approval, but I think that counts. In my hypothetical, landlord=bodybuilder. Sometimes direct confrontation is a difficult option if violence is possible. But I still have to set the boundaries, and expression can take a lot of different forms. The important part is that I take responsibility for acting. I can’t expect anyone to read my mind/pick up on my social cues. If only for my own safety (in the harassment hypothetical) I have to make sure that the person knows they can’t do that to me. Otherwise, silence equaling consent in the minds of some creepers, they might think they can do it again.

  290. @isabelcooper: Yes. And as others pointed out in the other thread, it’s funny how the ‘socially awkward’ nonetheless manage to pick up on some of those social cues. Say, the straight-guy creeper who nonetheless does not touch other guys. Huh! It’s almost like he’s absorbed a social rule!

    I once was in a trial against an opposing lawyer who, while mostly pleasant, had a habit of touching my shoulder or arm when we were standing in proximity (say, to review a document). I couldn’t figure this out – the guy wasn’t hitting on me, and seriously, as anyone who saw me in my role as Who’s The Dork Who Showed Up In A Suit at one of Scalzi’s readings can attest, pinstripes do not magically turn me into an irresistible sexpot. Then I saw the guy doing the same thing to a male associate who worked for him. Issue cleared up: it wasn’t sexual, it was an unconscious dominance thing. He sure didn’t put his hand on the judge’s or court clerk’s arm.

    Malicious? No. Sexual? No. Completely inappropriate and for all the wrong reasons? You bet.

  291. John Scalzi says:
    Brian Mac:
    If you think this sort of crap happens only at science fiction conventions, you are sorely mistaken, I have to tell you. Don’t confuse us talking about this at conventions with this not being a problem elsewhere. As noted in the entry, creeping can go on anywhere (and does).

    This is almost definitely a TL;DR post, but it’s relevant to John’s comment about creeping going on anywhere, I promise.

    As John says, this does happen anywhere and unfortunately, has happened to me–repeatedly, and from the same person–at work. I’ve been here 9 ½ years, working in the office of a produce company in a rural area. It’s a family-owned (not my family) business and I work for very good people for whom I have a great deal of respect, despite the rampant nepotism I encounter daily and the ‘I hates the gub’mint!’ mentality.

    Let me preface my story by explaining that I’m a single mom with a 17 yo daughter who will be attending college in a year and that after my years at this job, I make more money than I have the ability to make at pretty much any other job in my small town/rural area with the limited skill set that I posses (read: no college education, used to be a waitress). So I MUST keep my job. Also, the creeper in question has worked for the company for some 20 years, perhaps longer. He is an extremely valued warehouse employee and can do no wrong in the eyes of my bosses. NO wrong. I am not exaggerating. Last bit of explanation, I’m a SWF and creeper-man is Mexican by birth, and speaks just enough English to get by but not enough to actually hold a conversation, despite his decades in the U.S.

    So, he’s always been very friendly but also has always done a boob check when he either comes into the office or I go into the warehouse (which I avoid nowadays, if at all possible). Always. No matter what kind of top I’m wearing. Now, I’m in my early 40s and have never been what you might call a knock-out. Or even beautiful. I’m rather plain Jane and have been mildly to moderately overweight since I was a child. Despite my obvious physical deficiencies (tongue-in-cheek), I’ve been hit on a lot at bars and such and have had my disinterest met with a variety of reactions ranging from incredulity to hostility. Sometimes my dissenting responses were just flat ignored, in which case the creepiness continued, increasing as the creeper drank more… which is one reason why I don’t frequent bars anymore. But I digress… this is about my work creeper.

    Being Mexican-born Mexican (being called ‘Hispanic’ is an insult to them, in case that isn’t a well-known fact), my creeper comes from a culture that’s very touchy-feely. They hug, they kiss, they touch. It took some years for him to start trying to do this kind of thing with me, but he has always, IIRC, stood too close and touched my hand too long when handing me something. Eventually, it turned into standing close enough for our shoulders to touch when I was going over a warehouse order with him, or hovering so close behind me as to nearly touch me when I’d dig through bins in the parts room to find something for him. He even got to where he’d block the door to the parts room so that I had to either shove him out of the way or squeeze by him to get out.

    Now this wasn’t every day, all the time… it was now and again and sometimes weekly, but it did escalate over time. Having been raised to never “make waves” and frankly, not wanting to lose my job, I never commented on it to the bosses. Then he hugged and tried to kiss me at Christmas a couple of years ago. Then he followed me home after work though I managed to lose him in my small town so that he didn’t discover where I live. Before anyone asks, I know he was following me because when leaving the office that day, he turned right to go to his house which is very near the office and I turned left to take the freeway home. I noticed him turn around in my rear-view mirror and then he had to pretty much haul ass to catch up to me in order to get on the freeway just after I did. 15 miles later, after driving 90 all the way in an attempt to leave him behind, he was still there in my rear-view when I exited, before I eventually lost him in town.

    So… I casually mentioned to one of the bosses (owner’s daughter, who hired me) that creeper guy was kind of creepy and too touchy-feely sometimes. The reaction was that he didn’t mean anything by that! He’s a good guy, surely he didn’t realize he was making you uncomfortable!! The ‘that’s just how he is!’ attitude made me realize that I wouldn’t get any understanding or action from the bosses. Even my American-born Mexican boyfriend of many, many years brushed it off, assuming that I must have done something to encourage the guy. Which made me feel fantastic, let me tell you!

    Some internet friends suggested I explain to him that he was making me uncomfortable but that’s not really possible to do without a translator. And really, I felt like I was being vain in thinking that this man was possibly attracted to me and (IMO) borderline stalking me… so telling anyone about it rather felt like bragging. Even though I know that’s not what it IS, that’s what I feared people would THINK it was. Capice?

    Finally, one of my dear friends said, “Just say ‘NO!’ and back away… ‘no’ means ‘no’ in Spanish, too.” So, der… I did just that when he actually put his arm around me as I was going over an order with him one day in the warehouse. I said “NO!”, I backed away, then I wordlessly handed him the order and left. I got a smile that I interpreted as, “Aww, come on… you know you like it!” But he did mostly back off after that, about a year and a half ago. Though he has started getting friendly again, with the hand touching and boob-checking. So I might need another strongly worded denial of his unwanted attention again soon.

    Apologies for the novelette, there was a lot to explain. And this goes to show that not everyone has the ability to completely escape or even avoid their creeper.

  292. @Daveon:
    Being good at “picking up women” and being a creep are not the same things. I have friends who, shall we say, are very good in that department and generally speaking have good relationships with all their exes even if the liaison was, shall we say, limited to a few nights. One of the reasons they were so successful was because they weren’t creeps… Married female friends would explain to me that they had something they just liked and if they were single they would act on it. Another feature was they didn’t hit on married female friends.

    I am not surprised. It is my belief that women find desirable men who genuinely like women and treat them like equals that they want to talk to and respect the opinions of. Respecting boundaries is all about respecting the other person as a person. Not respecting boundaries is about treating the other person as an object that exists for your convenience. Guess which attitude the other person prefers?

  293. [Deleted because responding to a deleted post. Folks, when you encounter a post that’s obviously a troll and/or complete misogynistic bullshit, best to leave it to me — JS]

  294. Thus, it seems that there is no way for somebody in such a position to be able to realize their goals.

    The best comment I’ve read on this particular topic went something like “it’s easier to not be a creeper if you don’t have a goal you’re creeping toward.” As many have said, someone’s “goals” don’t place any obligations on anyone else, social awkwardness or no. If you’re viewing a social event primarily as an opportunity to hook up rather than to socialize, you’re probably doing it wrong. Even if some of the other people there to socialize actually do hook up.

    I agree with Avril Korman’s point that if a socially awkward person makes an honest faux pas — hey, it happens even to people who *aren’t* socially awkward — he or she can also make a serious effort not to repeat that mistake. Creepers may pretend they make a mistake, but it’s all about a pattern of behavior. And if you’re usuing social awkwardness to excise a pattern of offensive behavior — yours or someone else’s — that’s just creepy.

    Thanks for the post, Mr. Scalzi. I’m about to attend a Big Nerd Culture Event in Indianapolis next week, and I’ll have this post, as well as other recent ones on related topics, very much in mind.

  295. Other Bill says:
    tessuraea: Indeed. Indeed. And, honestly, how many socially awkward encounters does one have in their life? That fit this issue? Ten, twelve? I mean, I’m SWM, so my guesstimate might be low.

    Your guesstimate is ridiculously low. My 17 yo daughter can’t stop at the gas station without attracting unwanted, creepy attention from guys, young and old, who seem to think that complimenting her car is creeper camouflage. She knows that they’re admiring more than her 2 year old Nissan and it’s creepy as hell for her.

  296. Wow. This conversation is amazing. I have always said that anyone who has a friend who is displaying creeper or proto-creeper behavior needs to say something. Not saying something just promotes the culture. I’m good at doing this with friends, to the point that some people are no longer my friends. They were so wounded by me calling them on their crap, that they avoided me forever after that.

    I do have a confession to make, though. I am a huge coward when it comes to confronting a close family member who is both: 1. Probably Asperger’s. and 2. Definitely a creeper. I think the Aspergers contributes to the creeper behavior but it is NOT the cause and it is NOT an excuse. I think that perhaps no one has told him how bad his behavior is. I know that he responds well to rules, like “I will go to dinner with you, but only if we only change our table once”. This was put into place after once changing tables three times during a meal because there was a draft at one table, the light was in his eyes at another, and people were loud at the third. So perhaps if he can learn the dinner rule, it will work to tell him rules like “You can never talk about “pretty nurses” in front of your nurse who is taking care of you in the hospital.” Or, “turning and staring at a very attractive woman in the elevator is considered rude and harassing. It is not allowed, ever.” Hell, if I could tell him “it is inappropriate and makes me uncomfortable when you tell me dirty jokes, no more dirty jokes ever”, it might improve my life a bit. But I’m scared to do this, this is the one person I have trouble confronting because they are a family member and I don’t want to lose them from my life. Then again, if he doesn’t change his behavior, maybe I don’t want him in my life.

  297. [Deleted because responding to a deleted post. Folks, when you encounter a post that’s obviously a troll and/or complete misogynistic bullshit, best to leave it to me — JS]

    Phew! I managed to avoid posting a response to the deleted post, if only because I couldn’t come up with a way to phrase the response to my satisfaction. Sometimes my inability to write good saves me from myself.

  298. I more meant: don’t assume that the person is malicious;
    but I do agree that staying away from uncomfortable people, whether they are clueless or not, is a win.

    I’m not trying to defend creepers….I had a creep hit on me last month! but I am not going to hate him, just avoid him.

  299. John: I appreciate your commitment to Sparkle Motion.

    It’s been very interesting reading all the comments. Obviously with all the justifications and excuses, this topic really needs to be out there more. Please guys (and kilt-raising female friends), help each other out. If you see a friend crossing boundaries, say something. Trying to be better human beings, or helping others do the same, is never a waste of time.

  300. Todd, this “beta-male” business, as far as I can tell, comes from the nastier and more fringe elements of the MRA. Not everyone is interested in being the boss-wolf. Be that as it may, John Scalzi and Jim Hines are not displaying beta behaviour. They’re taking a strong and principled stand and letting the vulnerable members of their community know that they stand with them in trying to prevent sexual aggression against them. That’s the polar opposite of weak, and I thank them for it.

  301. Yeah, 10-12…a year, maybe. And I don’t go to a whole lot of events with people I don’t know, which helps, and I give pretty good Fuck Off eyes, so I’m probably on the low end of the scale.

    @Scott: Thank you; I do appreciate that. The thing is this, though:

    I’m not expecting anyone to read my mind.
    I’m not really even expecting anyone to pick up on subtle social cues.
    I’m expecting people to recognize and abide by nearly-universal standards of behavior. (Cue some guy coming in to complain about how I’m being imperialist because Montreal is the Gropiest Place on Earth, or something, and I cheerfully invite that guy to get bent.) Standards which most of them manage to abide by in ninety percent of their lives. That’s a very different expectation. And it’s sort of frustrating when you don’t seem to recognize that, so please stop invoking the read-my-mind/pick-up-on-subtleties thing.

    As far as the need for action and the silence-means-consent thing goes…well, acting is *good*, don’t get me wrong, if you can manage it. But a lot of people can’t, either for circumstantial reasons or because, honestly, a lot of the really weird sorts of harassment can catch you flat-footed. I’ve had several situations where my ten-minutes-later response was “Die in a fire, dipshit,” but while the incident was going on, I had a SAN loss moment of “…he what? He huh? But people don’t say that. That’s not a thing people say. OH GOD THE ANGLES ARE ALL WRONG.”

    Also, I’m not really sure what you’re trying to achieve with the “you’re responsible for setting boundaries” thing, or what it’s meant to help. Seriously. You seem pretty reasonable, and not like MRA troll guy or anything, so…why are you saying all of this? What do you think it will achieve? What’s your goal here?

  302. @Jill: Sure, you don’t have to. But that’s *your* choice. My choice to regard another guy–or even the same guy–as a waste of good hydrogen, and to be angry about what happened, is not wrong either.

    “Don’t assume they’re malicious”–at a certain point, willful ignorance *is* malicious, for one thing, and for another thing, it’s really not anyone else’s place to tell me what I should assume about someone harassing me. From where I sit, it sounds like a milder version of “Don’t be such a bitch, he’s just trying to be friendly.”

    Being a bitch and assuming that tool-appearing guys are actually tools has improved the quality of my life pretty substantially, thanks.

  303. @Scott: No one can be expected to know that they shouldn’t just touch you? Seriously?

    Pretty much. The fact that they are touching shows that any expectation of not being touched is incorrect. Just because I don’t want people to touch me doesn’t mean they won’t. If I don’t want someone to touch me, and they do, that means they don’t have the same expectations that I do, and I have to use my words to communicate that they crossed a line, and they shouldn’t.

    I hear you on the sounding-like-an-apologist front. Let me be clear – creepers suck (though I’m not crazy about the labeling – that’s for another time). Part of the idea of my responsibility to communicate my boundaries is that if I don’t communicate clearly what I will and won’t accept, I in effect enable further bad behavior towards myself and others. If I need to gather a group together and clearly explicate those boundaries because I don’t feel safe (because of the violator’s perceived or actual power over me), or approach a group that already has these values and the power to enforce them (i.e. the police, in the case of rape and assault and the whole range of awful things that people are capable of doing to each other) then I should do so. The bodybuilder friend was meant as a stand in for any person or group that could balance out a perceived or actual power differential.

  304. Paige Turner said: John Scalzi and Jim Hines are not displaying beta behaviour. They’re taking a strong and principled stand and letting the vulnerable members of their community know that they stand with them in trying to prevent sexual aggression against them. That’s the polar opposite of weak, and I thank them for it.”

    As do I. John Scalzi, Jim Hines, and other such men have long been out of beta. They are Adult Male V.2, at the very least.

  305. katyisbutthurt says: August 10, 2012 at 2:47 am
    I agree with 99.99% of what you wrote, with a tiny modification.

    Until other MEN and WOMEN start calling these asshats out on their behavior, it will continue. Until other men and women start telling the creepers among them that they are socially unacceptable and their behavior is out of line, it will continue.

    And NO, I am NOT talking about the victims, the people being creeped and preyed upon. I am talking about all of the rest of us. When we see this happen, it is our job to point this out. As long as asshats are allowed to continue being asshats with no consequences, they will never, ever stop.

    Eternal vigilance.

  306. Andrea says: August 10, 2012 at 2:03 pm
    I am lucky to have a large family. So shunning 1/6th of them is not so much of a hardship. In the end, life is much happier when you are not around these people. Learning to build those boundaries only took 50 years of practice.

    Should you confront your family member? Yes. Will it be hard and potentially hurtful? Yes. While there is a chance for a bad outcome, there is also a chance for a good outcome. It is possible that this person truly doesnt know that their behavior is wrong. But as most people hear seem to think, asper improper behavior and creepy improper behavior are almost always separate and different.

    Maybe this is the case where they truly don’t know that they are in the wrong because everyone has been afraid of confronting them. Maybe letting them know that their actions and continuing said actions will have consequences. That you wont be able to be friends with them.

  307. isabelcooper says:
    From where I sit, it sounds like a milder version of “Don’t be such a bitch, he’s just trying to be friendly.”

    This is EXACTLY what I’ve gotten in response to putting down guys hard in the past. It’s exceedingly insulting to a woman, or anyone who’s frustrated with being considered “fair game” and/or “rude” for not swooning at unwanted attention.

  308. Peter Cibulskis, I agree about the addition of women. I am a woman. Some years ago, I knew a guy who was a creep, we all knew he was a creep, yadda yadda. I mostly avoided him as much as possible, warned my female friends about him, but never confronted him. I now wish I had. I wouldn’t have changed him, but it would have been the honorable thing to do to say, “This is not okay.” He left his wife for a woman he met online. After he left town, his wife started hearing about his creepy behavior from other people in their social circle and was bewildered and hurt that no one had told her. I knew his wife even less well than I knew him, which wasn’t well at all, and to this day I don’t know that I would have told her, but I do wish I had called him out. I wish my brother had too, who was employed by the same company and who is an Adult Male V.2 who was raised with a lot of sisters and likes and respects women a lot. But that was 20 years ago. Maybe now, he would say something to the creep. I like to think we have made some progress. Still more to make.

  309. Oh yes, an open invitation from all of us assertive types to everyone else. If you know us, ask us. We will always step in and let asshats know that they are being asshats. Politely.

  310. @ Johnathan Vos Post —
    Gulliver: the bad news is that the school’s assistant principles told me: “You don’t have to press charges.”

    Disgusting. Revolting. Sickening.

    The good news is that I did, and the creeper was convicted of criminal Assault & Battery.

    The cowardly Assistant Principal should have been done for aiding and abetting after the fact, and attempting to conceal a crime, but a prosecutor probably wouldn’t present those charges unless you were an elected official. Heal quickly and completely, please.

    @49th —
    I suspect that part of your problem is like mine. We either did not learn the skills that pre-schoolers learn, learned them incorrectly, or have forgotten or repressed them. There are actual reasons that those things happen to people; therapy can help. Social skills training can help. John’s list has a lot of good ideas, I’ve learned them over the years and try to practice them. Sadly, it’s obvious to some that I am trying to practice them, rather than doing them instinctively, and there are people who object to that. The normals can’t tell us how to be social, because they don’t know how to teach being social, they only know unconsciously and instantly, without conscious thought, how to be humanly social, and many (most?) of them refuse to believe we don’t know. You can learn and become better at being a social human, even if you were raised by wolves or humans who were unskilled socially, and you’ll be unlikely to complain that the functional trichromat people aren’t looking properly.

    @”No means No” —
    Yes, it does, sometimes to the speaker’s regret. “You never called again!” “You said, quite firmly, ‘No’, and slammed the phone down.” “You should have called again!” “After you said ‘No’ like that? You could have called me.” “I didn’t say ‘Never call me again!'” … I don’t think it would have worked out back then either, from other conversations with her then (conversation snipped from a 25th college reunion.) The normals don’t always get it right, either. If they tell you — or you infer — to go away, go away. Part of social human is “Tag, you’re it!”

  311. BW, Paige Turner:

    The “Men’s Rights” definition of “beta male” appears to be “any man who does not loathe and fear women.” Which is instructive, I suppose.

  312. Right, and a lot of guys exploit the hell out of that “just trying to be friendly” thing, too. A major reason why Nice Guys never actually make a damn move is that making a move would confirm their intentions and give the woman something to say no to. As it is, if a guy is just sort of…around, all the time, and just a little inside the boundaries, and a little hinky, and you God forbid say “Just so you know, I’m really not interested,” then dear Lord you are so bitchy and presumptuous and why do you think all guys who try to be friendly are hitting on you, you’re not even that hot?

    Eventually, you get jaded and tired enough of it to say that no, you have male friends who act nothing like that, and regardless of your intentions, you’re *acting* like you want in my pants, so stop. Or to throw a drink in his face. But that takes a while, and even I’m more reluctant to do it if the guy is part of my social group and is likely to cause drama.

  313. Peter: This is also known as the “women need to stop fucking rotten men” principle.

    There are genuine reasons why some women enable rotten behavior in men–low self-esteem, cultural conditioning, fear of consequences–but there are also a lot of women who simply don’t care what these guys do to other women. They believe that it’s normal male/female power dynamics, or that it’s actually sexy when a guy pushes past boundaries, and thus think women who complain about that are anti-sex harpies. And as bad as it is when dudebro’s male buddies support–or don’t call him on–his rotten behavior, it’s even worse when that enabling comes from women.

    Of course, the dude in question needs to know that even if one women–or a dozen–lets him treat them like shit, that doesn’t give him carte blanche to do so with other women. But I can pretty much guarantee that dude’s creeper m.o. would change if it ceased being successful at all, and only women can make that happen. When the goal you’re trying to reach is compelling enough, even a little incentive is enough to wipe out a whole heckuva lot of roadblocks. I honestly think that one woman saying “yes” to a creeper wipes out two dozen telling him to fuck off. In his experience, that’s still a pretty good success rate, so he’s going to keep doing it. As angry as it makes me when I see dude getting his creep on, it makes me even more angry when I see women responding to it. Just … ugh. Stop.

  314. Oh, and “my stalker”, the one who was locked up, was a hottie. Rabbit-ear magazine centerfold hot. There were some on the dorm floor who wondered which of us was crazier, her, or me for not taking advantage of her “willingness”. People.

  315. John –

    Great post, great weigh-in on the topic, and as always it’s a pleasure to see you wield the hammer. You have such a talent for homing in on the essence of an argument (good or bad).

  316. @isabella – I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt. I’m really not trolling.

    I think part of it stems from not having set boundaries for myself in situations that I should have, and recognizing that I bear responsibility for my inaction. I also don’t think it’s right to hold myself to a certain standard, and other people to a different standard. So, if I’m expecting a creeper to act like a responsible adult and recognize that other people are autonomous, and that he or she has control over his actions, then I’m also responsible for my own actions. I am responsible for how I choose to let the world interact with me, insofar as I can act. One way that I can act in the hypothetical of some creepy person is by telling them to quit creepin’.

    And lest it sound like an abstract point, I think it’s pretty important. I’m not responsible for how other people act, but only for my responses to their actions, and I have a responsibility to myself to act in my own best interests as best I can. Saying that I don’t have to say anything absolves me of a responsibility that I don’t think I have the right to give up, since my actions effect other people who might come into contact with this person, as well as myself (if I might come into contact with this person in the future). If I need to circle around and communicate with this person at a later point (perhaps with the backing of a group or authority of some kind, to make sure I get what I want), then that’s what I would do.

    I’m not sure it’s reasonable to expect people to act right. I can’t speak for you, but my experience living where I live has been that expecting folks to do the right thing is a sure-fire path to disappointment. I don’t expect the worst, mind you. I just try to suspend judgement. It’s not easy.

    I hear you though that, in the moment, some things just catch you flat footed. If I suddenly recognize, “Hey, I’ve been taken advantage of/harassed/insulted/rick-rolled,” even after the fact, I might have to really consider whether I need to do something, or let it go. Nothing is cut and dry, and I’m not a fanatic. Timing is everything. Sometimes the time to do something has passed, and I have to let it go.

  317. ” John, I think you’re mistaking the obligation to say, “I need to be safe, and you’re not making me feel safe.” ”

    This is NOT an obligation. I do not need to explain myself.

  318. @ John Scalzi:

    Yeah, that definition sounds about right. Although I’m leaning more toward their definition of “beta male” being “a man who doesn’t validate my mistaken image of myself as an alpha male by behaving like I do”.

  319. @Jess – You definitely don’t have to explain WHY you feel as you do, and no one should expect you to. All I’d like to do is remove the ability for the disingenuous or actually clueless to say, “Well, I didn’t know he/she didn’t want me to….” Whereupon I could say to them, “You knew, because I told you. So cut it out.”

  320. @Scott: I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t agree. I don’t expect myself to read anyone’s mind or necessarily pick up on cues, but I *do* expect myself to follow basic social rules, and I hold other people to the same standard.

    Which is not to say that I’m surprised when they fail. I wouldn’t be *surprised* if someone breaks into my house and takes my TV, either, insofar as I know that some people do these things, but I’d be pissed. And I don’t think that I would be responsible for, say, putting a sign on my house that says PLEASE DO NOT TAKE MY STUFF, because…thief guy should know that already.

    As far as confrontation keeping a creeper from further creeping…well, it might. It might make him subtler. And if I don’t confront him, the next girl he sleezes at might call the cops, or break his jaw, or some other action that makes me happy inside. (I also take the position that most of these asshats don’t change–if they wanted to, they would have–and the best thing one can do regarding them is warn everyone and/or try to remove them from various social circles.) Either way, calling someone on his behavior is good, but holding victims responsible for his further behavior is a pretty shitty thing to do to someone who’s just been victimized, and that’s what “you’re responsible for setting boundaries OR ELSE WHAT ABOUT THE NEXT GIRL” boils down to.

    Frankly? Most of these guys know what the boundaries are good and well. Most of them just don’t care.

  321. @Scott: How about saying some version of, “Well, you should have known, because you weren’t raised in a cave. Now stop your whining and don’t do it again.”?

  322. I know that a lot of what Scott’s been saying feels like a head-scratcher, but …

    As bizarre as it sounds when people assert that “don’t touch strangers” isn’t something everyone learns, it’s actually true.

    Common sense isn’t all that common, and when you’re surrounded by a sexist culture that reinforces the idea that women enjoy being “conquered” by macho dudebros, yeah, that’s what people are going to learn. Men learn that that’s an appropriate way to seek sex, and women learn that that’s a flattering expression of attention, and a reinforcement of their value as a person.

    It’s really only been the last few decades that women have, en masse, started believing that an ability to provide sexual pleasure for men is not the only or primary thing of value about them, and that men pursuing them only on that count is a not a flattering reinforcement of their value to the world. And the forces of evil that depend on that power imbalance have fought back pretty damned hard, trying to get women to believe otherwise again. So, yes, there are a lot of people who genuinely believe that the hands-off admonishment either doesn’t apply to them, or doesn’t apply when they’re trying to get some.

    This doesn’t mean that people who are victims of this stuff have a responsibility to gently educate the assgaskets doing it. But it does mean that things like this post are useful, in that they help reset the social standard to the hands-off state it should be in. It does seem like people should know better than to hit on total strangers in a non-hitting-on space, but there are millions of people–including women–who sincerely believe that only sexless prudes believe that, and therefore such admonishments don’t or shouldn’t matter. Until the rest of the culture starts reinforcing the other standard, they’ll go on believing that.

  323. JOhn, I appreciate what you’ve done here, this is indeed a good start. Where I think it needs to go from here is to deal with the culture of support that enables creepers to prosper. In other words, I think we need a “These are the signs of a creeper- don’t support it” for the men around creepers. Creepyness will only really be combated when it’s no longer tolerated by the people who witness creepyness.

  324. @A Mediated Life: That I agree with.

    I still think the best response to “…but but but I didn’t know…” is “Well, you should have known, and now you do,” or “Really? Because you don’t try to give *me* random backrubs,” or “How do you not know that?” because I believe in the value of shame, and because adults have plenty of resources other than trial-and-error, and because that response puts the responsibility of educating him or herself back on the creeper, who has tried to make it someone else’s via ignorance-as-excuse.

    But yeah, that’s why posts like this one are valuable.

  325. Yeah, what ericthetolle said.

    Victims alone shouldn’t be the only ones responsible for getting creepers to stop creeping. Just as in criminal law, there’s the concept of accomplices, accessories, etc., so, too should there be that concept in social “law.” So long as creepers are getting more reinforcement than blowback from everyone except their victims, they’ll keep doing what they do.

    Like it or not, we are a social species, and life is not a series of isolated, one-on-one interactions which no-one else can influence or be affected by. We don’t go through life in hamster balls. It’s corny but true that evil flourishes when good folks do nothing.

  326. One of the scenarios I’m picturing with respect to Asperger’s more or less boils down to this:

    An Aspie at a con, pretty far along the spectrum, is walking down a corridor from point A to point B. He’s flapping his hands and walking awkwardly. I note this because these are actions, behaviors. Without speaking to anyone, without making eye contact with anyone, without touching anyone, without coming within arm’s length of anyone, he’s making some people uncomfortable. This is one of those cases where some people would just prefer fifty feet of personal space.

    I think he has an excuse. I think this is entirely forgiveable. I think if anyone complained to me about this behavior, assuming there’s nothing worse than what I describe, and asked me to have the person removed from the con as a creeper (not that I have any such authority), I’d tell them to go to hell, and if I were accused of “blaming the victim,” I’d make the language more explicit.

    Now, from all I can tell, this isn’t what John is talking about, but I have to wonder whether this is part of what people have in mind when they ask whether Asperger’s is any sort of defense. Really, for such trivial offenses, it is.

    Another example: suppose the most socially skilled person in the world is in an incredibly realistic zombie costume. He looks like he just woke up from a six-week dirt nap and hasn’t had a shower yet. Animatronic maggots swarm about the slab of raw meat where half his face used to be. Without being sexual, his costume makes people uncomfortable, entirely by design. Again, suppose he’s not touching, not following, not boxing. At what point is he a creeper? Eye contact? Suppose he does a bit of flirting, just to get reactions. He leers, asks women for a kiss, they shriek, and he goes away. Or he gets a kiss on the prosthetic latex Is it clear that his attempts at flirting are facetious, and the shrieks he receives in reply are an expected part of the game? Granted, maybe the people in the more impressive costumes can let the attendees come up to them rather than the other way around.

    Another example, as removed from cons as possible: picture a diner in a small town in rural Texas. A stranger walks in the door, a Mr. Singh, with beard and turban. Everyone in the diner is uncomfortable. The diners no doubt suspect Mr. Singh is a suicide bomber. Mr. Singh wonders whether he’s going to be dead in a ditch in an hour. Now, Mr. Singh might be foolish for going into a diner in rural Texas, but is he a creeper?

  327. @Scott, I think where you’re having a bit of a problem is with the different consequences of “setting boundaries”. Women can and are assaulted for just politely refusing a male’s attention, where a guy politely refusing a woman would not likely face the same severity of response.

  328. @isabel – hahaha. “At the risk of offending the perfectly well socialized animals that were raised caves….”

    Well, there’s reasons to not confront. Somebody’s threatening violence, get out and live to fight another day, and make sure you’ve got a lot of those body builders (the law) with you when you eventually do confront. Don’t want to cause a scene? Okay, maybe take it outside, as the saying goes, or do something later. Just because it won’t necessarily help doesn’t mean I shouldn’t do it. There’s a question there, and I’m genuinely asking here: if I don’t help in a situation where I could, am I responsible for the outcome of that situation? I don’t know. I tend to think yes at least in some way, but that doesn’t mean that I’m right.

    @Mediated – Exactly. I don’t have to educate them, gently or otherwise. I just have to tell them, for me, to stop, if I can.

    Alright. I’ve talked enough. Thank you all for discussing this. I’ve got to pretend to do work today.

  329. @GBCCm: Creeper = making other people give you personal, often physically or emotionally intimate, attention because you feel you’re entitled to it.

    It’s kinda like religion: you’re free to practice your beliefs in any way you like so long as it doesn’t require the unwilling participation of others.

  330. @GBCC: Points A and C fall under “the right to swing your fist ends at my nose”, and C has a side of “also, people should stop being goddamn racist motherfuckers.” Thus, nonapplicable.

    Point B…depends. Is the con a horror con? If so, then as long as the “hey, gimme a kiss” things are toward people who are clearly enthusiastic about interacting with him (and ideally spaced equally among genders) and he’s not bugging anyone…sure, fine. If not, I’d say the costume’s inappropriate, especially somewhere with younger kids, some of whom love that sort of thing but some of whom will have three weeks of nightmares. Deliberately trying to gross out an audience who didn’t sign up for that sort of thing is an asshat move, really.

  331. A Mediated Life says: August 10, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    Peter: This is also known as the “women need to stop fucking rotten men” principle.

    Oh, dont get me started on this one. I saw this all through college. The women dating the Smooth Asshat, and then complaining to their nice male friends about how all men are asshats and where are all the nice men. Mostly not dating you … Having older sisters and no older brother helped me by never having an asshat set a bad example for me and sisters to want to protect from those asshats.

  332. @Scott… I mean this kindly, but I feel like it’s very easy for you to say what women must do because you are male and you don’t have to do it. Stop for a moment. Think what it’s like for the *norm* of your day to day life to be boundary violation.

    The norm. Not an isolated incident or two. The norm, where I – you, as a woman, find that headspace a moment – must constantly, constantly check her physical surroundings to be certain that she has completely accounted for any assault – minor to major – and done everything she can to prevent it.

    I am hypervigilant as it is.

    Are you suggesting that I – you, that you and I as a woman in the world, if you are in my shoes – must always, always be in that state?

    Because it’s not one day, Scott. It’s not one moment.

    It’s twenty moments in hundreds of days, to so many varying different degrees that it would make your head spin how many times your space, desires, your *person* is disregarded because you’re female.

    The issue with your argument isn’t a practical one. Sure, practically speaking yes. It helps if I say “this is making me uncomfortable.”

    You are telling me that I must do that a hundred, three hundred, ten thousand times. Or it is my fault if it goes any other way.

    The problem is larger than my saying what my boundaries are. The problem is, as John has clearly said, that the culture is one in which boundary transgression is the norm for women, and that we need to re-educate what the actual norm should be so that women are not defending what should be an obvious boundary CONSTANTLY.

    I play hockey. I fight. I lift weights. People who know me joke about “not messing with me.” I still spend a lot of my life feeling unsafe. As I’ve said, three times now, men taking responsibility for not transgressing my space – and seeing to it that other men don’t either by education and example – is a huge thing for me.

    Please don’t undermine its importance. You seem like a rational, nice person. I think you’re also capable of thinking compassionately.

  333. @Peter, 2:46 — The assumption you’re making here is that men and women occupy the same positions socially. They don’t. Yes, it’s great when women can ALSO call people out and create safe space, but often the consequence of that is *becoming the target of the creeper*. Other consequences tend to be things like being told, by your male “friends,” that you’re overreacting, or he’s really a nice guy, or whatever. Which is a whole ‘nother problem and should result in the finding of new friends, but the point is that creeper behavior happens in part because the greater culture allows it by making excuses for it. (See: many of the posts in this thread.)

    So yes, let’s all try to help cleanse the culture of the assumption that this behavior is okay and will be tolerated. And let’s not put the onus of it on women, even this way.

  334. @GBCCm: Your exacmples all boil down to “someone makes others uncomfortable because of their conspicuous difference.” But that in and of itself isn’t creeping; simply making people uncomfortable isn’t creeping. As A Mediated Life pointed out, creeping is focused on the deliberate drawing of an individual’s focus to oneself, often by taking advantage of some kind of power imabalance — even if it’s just other people’s politeness or unwillingness to stage a confrontation. It isn’t about “trivial offences”; it’s about a pattern of behavior that deliberately discounts other people’s feelings. A Sikh walking into a diner has nothing to do with it.

  335. “random back rubs”
    The video of Bush 2.0 touching Merkel’s shoulders, her reaction and his facial expression as he ran away were priceless. Bush KNEW immediately that he should NOT have done what he did. This was not the first time he had done this to someone. His facial expression as he walked away was fear. Fear that he had been caught.

  336. @Michelle Sagara: I love you, in an abstract Platonic non-creepy way. Well said.

    @Everyone who seconded my recommendation for “The Gift of Fear”. Thanks. I don’t think that book can be recommended highly enough to A) Women to protect themselves and B) Men to realize just how huge this problem is in our society.

    I know of so many women who buy themselves costume jewelry rings to wear on their left hand, ONLY to conventions. It doesn’t stop all the creeping, but it reduces the frequency.

    I suspect that serial creepers also park in handicapped spaces and talk at the theater. It’s all about feeling entitled.

    Mrs. Scalzi and Mrs. Hines are very lucky women indeed. Were John and Jim not so openly happily ridiculously married, they would, frankly, get more women than they’d know what to do with. ;)

  337. GBCCM @ 3:40 p.m. (Hey, I’m writing in the future, it’s only 12:51 here…)

    I see your real problem is with the word “uncomfortable.” Well, I think that’s part and parcel of trying to be polite. We are downplaying what’s really going on by using “I feel uncomfortable” when we should probably be using “I feel threatened.”

    I am not threatened by the guy with Autism/Asberger’s walking down the hall trying to get from Point A to Point B. If said guy traps me in a corner and flaps his hands at me, preventing me from leaving that corner, I am going to feel threatened.

    I am probably not threatened by Zombie dude as described, though he would annoy me. But I have friends who would be threatened by him.

    Real Life Example: At RenFaire and someone asked if they could re-lace my corset, I felt threatened. Creepy behavior. (OTOH, at RenFaire I once invited two young gentlemen to unlace my corset, and that was different. And still not an invitation to go have sex somewhere, nor did they take it as such. Not creepy, except possibly on my part.)

    If alone in an elevator with a strange man who will not stop staring at me, I will feel threatened. That is creepy.

    Creepy behavior is threatening behavior. Whether you (the generic you) mean it that way or not. Being threatened makes humans of all genders, nations, and creeds feel uncomfortable. And uncomfortable is a less loaded word, so we use that.

    Go back through and re-read the original post and the comments and read “uncomfortable” as “threatening.” This may help.

    Or it may not.

  338. GBCCm:

    I think it’s worth it to you to go up and down this thread and look at the posts of people who either have Asperger’s or who live with people and note what they have to say on the topic.

    What keeps happening here is folks trying to carve out highly specific counterexamples. I think it’s worth asking what the intention is behind doing so.

    Also, as regards the second example: What? I’m not following this at all. As regards the third example: GBCCm, if you really believe a minority citizen being exposed to the hostility of the majority is actually a reasonable comparison to a man creeping on a woman, with all the power dynamics of that particular incident, I think you need to go back and examine your initial premises.

  339. First off I want to say that I have never been to a Con. I have watched a few videos on youtube. I see that some women dress up in skimpy outfits for these things. I see people like that as attention hogs. I probably wouldn’t want anything to do with them. Dressing up to look like a character is one thing, but wearing next to nothing is done just to get attention. I find people like that kind of annoying. I am not religious nor a conservative. So it is not a ‘values’ thing to me.

    Why would I want to be the umpteenth guy to go up to talk to them because of how they are dressed?

  340. John: I think sistercoyote addressed my concerns about “uncomfortable” pretty well. The third example retains some validity, though, even if we apply sistercoyote’s alternative “threatened” language; in both cases, there’s fear. Where I’ll grant there’s a major difference in the third example is that most people in rural Texas have never met a Sikh, and much of their reaction is going to be due to unfamiliarity, whereas men aren’t going to be such a novelty to women at a con.

    I’m not trying to argue against your points here; I’m trying to find some additional clarity in areas that I thought weren’t clearly defined.

  341. @Julie
    I did not put the onus on women. I especially didnt put the onus on the victims. But I will put the onus on everyone else. If we do nothing, we are guilty of misprision.

    Occupy the same position socially? All of my friends are equal. If I saw any of them acting wrong towards any of the others, I would say something. Yes, women have more to risk, but not all women. But the only way that we will change society is for some women to stand up. We are here to day talking about this because two women stood up, the internet exploded, and John, as always, gave us a place to civilly discus this!! I have watched my stronger friends stand up and I have watched others see this behavior and learn from it.

    Overreacting? Isnt that just yet another way that we blame the victim?

    What was amazing in the original write up, was reading about the authors friends and acquaintances stepping in and helping her. They didnt worry that she might have been overreacting. They didnt care that he just wanted to apologize.

    Is it dangerous for women to stand up to creeps? Hell yes. But history is full of bullies who were finally stood up to. And yes, some of the people who stand up get hurt. But the lesson is that if we all dont stand up, the bullies win. We pick our fights, but in the end, if you saw a small child being beaten, would you stand up and risk getting hurt, or would you just do the right thing.

    As John pointed out in his SWM article, I have it easy. Straight, white, male, tall, large frame, dark sunglasses. It is trivial for me to stand up. All we can do is continue and let you know that we have your back.

    Sorry this is getting long, the question isnt are men and women equal in out current society (hell, we have it easy compared to Saud Arabia or Iran or or or ) but what are the steps we need to take reduce the inequality. And this conversation is one of many that will continue to move us in that direction.

  342. Guess @ 4:21

    I see people like that as attention hogs. I probably wouldn’t want anything to do with them. Dressing up to look like a character is one thing, but wearing next to nothing is done just to get attention.

    Actually, the odds are incredibly good that they’re not dressed that way for the people viewing them. The odds are they’re dressed that way for themselves — because it makes them feel good, because that’s their interpretation of the character, because they decided to do it and to hell with whatever demons dressing that way helps them fight. They are, admittedly, probably not surprised when they get attention, but even so that doesn’t by any stretch mean they’ve dressed that way in order to obtain that attention.

  343. Then I saw the guy doing the same thing to a male associate who worked for him. Issue cleared up: it wasn’t sexual, it was an unconscious dominance thing. He sure didn’t put his hand on the judge’s or court clerk’s arm.

    I work in retail, so I see a lot of people. I don’t particular enjoy being touched by any of them. I was working one day and a man came in with his son; his son was probably twelve, but very large for his age. This boy had asked for book recommendations, and I found him books and because he was *not quite a teenager* I did not kill him, because swear to god *any* time I looked away, he’d grab my elbow. I was, by the end of it, doing a slow burn.

    And then he took his books to his father, and they came to the counter together and I rang them in and told them the price – and the kid grabbed his father’s elbow in the exact same way… and his dad turned to face him. The boy started to sign. The father signed back.

    The father was deaf. Clearly, when speaking to the adults around him, the boy had learned to: grab elbows to make sure that the person was looking at him. I felt… about two inches tall. I was so grateful that I had not actually snapped at the kid, because, I’ll tell you, I was close.

    But the thing is: I was irritated. I didn’t feel threatened. I sometimes wish I had subsequently said something to the kid, because it was a rule that was a necessity in his household – but it was going to sink like a bloody rock outside of it, and he clearly didn’t understand that he was transgressing boundaries. I don’t think it’s something his parents could teach him with any efficacy, given the context.

  344. @Scorpius:

    So, my advice to them is: be tolerant, be very tolerant. Geeks tend to be weird and if you freak out because of people acting highly socially awkward you’re going to be a pall over the geek event, disrupting everything.

    I’m just saying no to all of that. You might really want to have a think about how badly you’re missing the point, and being a bit of a creeper yourself, by insisting that it’s the harassed who just need to STFU and stop ruining every else’s fun by making a fuss. That kind of attitude is a bigger “pall” over my social life; and no, I just don’t accept that Geeks “tend” to harass women. I’ll say this one more time – sexual harassment is not part of the base code of the universe, a genetic imperative or natural law. It really is a lifestyle choice, and the responsibility for changing it is all on the perpetrators not the victims.

  345. @ sistercoyote: “They are, admittedly, probably not surprised when they get attention, but even so that doesn’t by any stretch mean they’ve dressed that way in order to obtain that attention.”

    [nod]. And even if they *did* dress that way in order to get attention, it’s still their call about what kind of attention they want and from whom. They don’t give up their right to set personal boundaries.

  346. @Peter:

    “Overreacting? Isnt that just yet another way that we blame the victim?” Exactly! This is part of my point.

    I think we’re speaking past one another. Let me back up and see if I can untangle where we/I got lost.

    Here’s what I think happened. I conflated two different experiences: being creeped on by someone you don’t know, and being creeped on by someone you do know and hang out with, and I didn’t signal that I was broadening the conversation a touch.

    In the first case, it’s more common to get backup: from friends, from nearby witnesses, etc. This is largely (but not exclusively) the set of examples we’ve been talking about here.

    What I wanted to point out was relevant because of the second case. In the second, when someone is already part of the social circle (comes over for game night, gets invited to all the parties, etc.), it’s sadly much more common for people to react by protecting the creeper. Doing so lowers the perceived drama, and it doesn’t ask anyone else to stick their neck out.

    Katyisbutthurt’s story is a case in point, but not because her husband and friends actually reacted that way. Her creeper EXPECTED the men to take his side. He was using the dude-code to try to enlist them on his side. In another situation, he’d probably have gotten away with it, because in more situations than we’d like to believe, the men (and often women) side with the creeper. (And worse.)

    That’s why I wanted to point out that *in the larger society*, men and women aren’t positioned equally. I love that it’s not true in your social circle, but it’s true so so so often, especially when people are younger. (I hope to beezus this gets less common as we get older.) And in that situation, women speaking up likely doesn’t change anything, but men speaking up absolutely does, because it changes the rules of engagement.

  347. @isabelcooper said “Frankly? Most of these guys know what the boundaries are good and well. Most of them just don’t care”

    THANK YOU.

    In reading these many comments, I see so many people trying to pin this behavior on social awkwardness, being an Aspie, geek culture. Folks, seriously. I mean it- if 1 in 10 men I have to deal with in any given day is a creepy little douchecanoe(and sadly, that’s fairly accurate.), trust me- only one in ten of THOSE has any of the problems that have been used as excuses in these comments. The other 9? They know FULL WELL what they’re doing. They know what appropriate boundaries are. They are perfectly capable of *not* treating people they don’t want to see naked (either physically or emotionally- because it’s really about the power play here.) in this fashion. They do it because we, as a culture, decided a long ass time ago that they could *get away with it*.

    The number of times women have to do a threat assessment *every day of their lives* is staggering. Men *do not* have any concept of what it’s like to have to make those same assessments *every single time* one leaves their own house. But like anything else you have to do 100,000 times, you get very good at it. So really, when the women here are saying “we can tell the difference between creepy and awkward”, we really can, and considering the consequences to being wrong? I can live full well with being wrong in the side of caution.

    A few months ago I was at a concert, alone. I was being creeped on pretty hard by a guy standing next to me. Understand that by leaving, I wouldnt be able to see the show anymore- I was up front, and I’m short, so once I wind up in the back, I may as well go home. Long story short, what brought this guy up short was NOT my telling him to cut it out and go away, but the fact that he saw I was wearing a ring on my left hand. In essence, the only reason he stopped was because he believed I was the property of another person with an attached penis. Women are not *people* to guys like this and seriously, it’s not social awkwardness, It’s predatory behavior. Can we call it what it is, please?

    The fact is that until recently (and I mean really recently, as within the past five years or so) there’s been a movement toward men standing up against this stuff as regards women who are *NOT* their SO/wife/whathaveyou.

    It has *always* been “don’t do that- because she’s mine.”, effectively reducing the woman to property and perpetuating the cultural belief that women aren’t really people. it is only very recently that that’s even *begun* to switch to “don’t do that- that behavior isn’t okay.” when applied to ANYONE, ANYWHERE. Make no mistake, the difference between these two things, whilst ostensibly producing the same result (the creeper goes away) is vast and wide, gang.

  348. Good list. Also disagree with the joining a group part though- if the group is welcoming and you’re interested in the group too, that’s fine people have to meet somehow. But definitely only IF. I have had MOUNTAINS of creepy people in my day. Hard rules are tough though. Two people of equal attractiveness levels can say the exact same thing as a pick-up and from one it can be complementary, funny, etc. and from another it can be a disgusting “run!” moment. Delivery is everything. If they are respectful of me and my personal space that’s a huge part of the difference.

  349. Scorpius asks for tolerance of “be[ing] weird” and Craig Ranapia sees this as defending sexual harassment and accuses Scorpius of being a creeper.

    This is why I wanted to paint such a detailed portrait of someone being innocuously weird in my first example. People here are talking past each other, arguing about completely different things, one speaking in defense of underspecified, possibly harmless behavior, the other attacking the perceived tolerance of clearly offensive behavior.

    Craig, go back and read my first example at 3:40. That’s a very explicit example of what I mean by “being weird,” and it may well have been what Scorpius meant. I’m sure you’re a fine White Knight, and some women pat you on the back for it, and I’m sure that makes you feel good, but with your ad hominem attacks, you come across as a bully to the rest of us.

  350. @GBCCm:

    1) I know from long experience that Scorpius is entirely capable of taking issue with me on his own behalf. Please pay him that courtesy, especially when you’re sneering at my alleged “White Knighting”.

    2) As far as I’m aware, you don’t have moderator privileges on Whatever. While you’re busy pontificating about “bullying” and “ad hominem attacks” (both clear breeches of this site’s commenting policy), you might want to leave the mallet-swinging to Mr. Scalzi.

    3) It’s also really helpful if you’d bother engaging with anything I actually said. But I won’t hold my breath waiting.

  351. Craig, go back and read my first example at 3:40. That’s a very explicit example of what I mean by “being weird,”

    Others, including John Scalzi, have explained why they think your “examples” are essentially bullshitty – and I agree. But here’s another example you might like to think about.

    I’m slightly hard of hearing, and in large crowded rooms I have engaged in “creepy” behaviour — getting into people’s personal space, initiating uninvited physical contact. It wasn’t at all “harmless” or “innocuously weird” to the people who told me (quite rightly) to step the fuck off. And I thought it was actually my absolute and unconditional responsibility to immediately comply in the first instance, and think a bit about modifying my own behaviour. And, yes, part of that is I tend to either avoid crowded rooms where I can’t follow conversations, or explicitly say up front that I need people to either speak up or come closer.

    What I do not accept is that my (mild) disability means other people should just be “very tolerant” of my social misconduct.

    Hope that clarifies a few things, because it really isn’t rocket science.

  352. GBCCm,
    Forgive me, but I might get a bit meta here…
    I have a lot of sympathy with how you seem to be thinking. I know I have some mannerisms that can be slightly offputting, such as maintaining proper eye contact across the whole range of social situations (I’m working on it). So a question that interests me is “there’s a line out there, but it’s fuzzy and contextual, and it varies based on who’s drawing it – how do I be sure I never inadvertantly cross one?”. And you’re (justifiably) confused when you get thrown in with the genuine creepers and seemingly accused of making up hypotheticals to weasel out of the consequences of your behavior.
    And you know what? It’s because the latter is the kind of thing that real creepers do. It’s a trigger. It’s threatening. And persisting with a threatening action is what creepers do.
    I think it’s an interesting hypothetical, and important to some of us. But it might be better asked in a different room, where things aren’t as charged, and everyone can breathe.

  353. @GBCCm
    John defines a creeper as “someone whose behavior towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe.” Note what I italicized there. Creeper behavior is targeted behavior. If you’re still insisting on the Sikh example then you still haven’t grasped the importance of this. Being a Sikh may make bigots feel threatened, but it’s not really behavior and it definitely doesn’t target the bigots.

    (But then, given the way you quack like an MRA duck about white knights, I’m suspicious of the sincerity of your misunderstanding.)

  354. I apologize if this has already been said, but if you’re physically big – I’m 6 feet tall and pretty powerfully built – you have to be that much more careful about physical space and boxing people in. Size is intimidating, and you have to keep that in mind.

  355. I’d like to expand on the point about personal space (6) and not boxing people in (7). Specifically, if you are trying to flirt, following (6) and (7) is a great subtle first move: start at arms length, or wherever the conversation was before, make sure they are not boxed in — there’s more room on the couch you’re both sitting on, or they’ve got space on the other side of them to step into — and then shift towards them by about 2 centimetres. If they’re not comfortable with that, they’ll move, perhaps even unconsciously without realising what you did. If that happens, congratulations, you’ve successfully learned that they don’t want you in their space without actually offending them in the process. You can now proceed to give them the space they want and be a decent human being.

    More broadly, the best pick-up line in the world is the one to which it is easy to say either ‘no’ or ‘yes’ without feeling you’ll offend the other person. And no, I don’t know what the best pick-up line in the world would actually be, because it depends strongly upon context. In fact, context is part of it — don’t ever ask at a time when (s)he would feel more unsafe than usual when answering. But I do know that I found that principle really useful, even as a woman, when I started flirting more often in an effort to get laid. Because goodness knows I wouldn’t want to accidentally do to some guys what a few too many guys have done to me over the years.

    To the nervous guys who are worried they might be creepers even if they probably aren’t, just focus on finding the easiest ways to make people feel like they can indicate either interest or disinterest without facing bad consequences. The principle is that simple.

  356. @GBCCm: Actually, at this point, I don’t actually care WHAT major malfunction is behind a given creeper’s behavior- that’s the problem for the creeper to deal with, and Scalzi has given a good guide for the few innocent creepers to use to alter their behavior. Nor do I really give a shit any more about whatever edge-case example of “See? See? You could be rejecting an innocent fill-in-the-blank” the apologists for creepers dredge up.

    The only thing I care about is that there are harassers who create an uncomfortable and unsafe environment for women. PERIOD. And these people need to stop, or be stopped. PERIOD. I’m sorry if you think that’s bullying, but from my perspective, I’m just seeing excuses for encouraging an environment where sexual harassers can flourish.

  357. Helen Howe, that is an awesome story!

    Grabbing someone’s hand, pulling it into the air and saying “groper.” perfect.

    How witnesses react if someone identifies misbehavior in public is indeed very important. And to all those who are commenting that this won’t help the issue of creepers who know their behavior is wrong, and don’t care, well, I think it can help, if the rest of us read the list and also study up on how to intervene or help someone who is the “creepee” or otherwise a victim of harrassment. Jim C. Hines has posted some very helpful material in the regard, and you can also google the Back Up project for advice.

    If you aren’t comfortable stepping in, an easy rule is to inform your host that something is going on. If you are at a party, that’s the party host, but anywhere at a con your host is the concom and the best way to contact them is through ops. The hotel front desk should know how to contact ops, if you don’t (note to conrunners: always make sure the hotel front desk staff are informed how to contact ops. Also: ops should always have a phone number. And training on how do deal with this stuff).

  358. You’re being unduly fatalist here, Mark; I know bunches of socially awkward people who manage this stuff.

    If someone is socially awkward, but manages to be normal when they feel like it, they’re NOT socially awkward. They are just being different by choice. Awkward people can’t control it — that’s what makes them awkward. All they can do is try to recognize when they’ve made someone uncomfortable and back off. But awkwardness is often coupled to difficulty reading social cues, so it can take a while to recognize that something is wrong.

    My problem with #1 is that it implies that socially awkward people are responsible for how others respond to them. When you can make people uncomfortable by your very nature despite doing nothing wrong, you can’t take responsibility for it. That road leads to isolation and self-hatred, and that cycle is a reason that some socially awkward people don’t learn better social skills.

    The socially awkward are just as responsible as everyone else for doing #2 – #10. But beyond that kind of thing, there’s no reason for them to take responsibility for the discomfort of others. And if they legitimately don’t realize they’ve made someone uncomfortable, the responsibility is on the discomforted to end the encounter rather than standing there futilely using non-verbal communication to express their discomfort.

  359. Mark:

    “If someone is socially awkward, but manages to be normal when they feel like it, they’re NOT socially awkward. They are just being different by choice.”

    Yeah, no, Mark. That’s not actually what “socially awkward” means at all to anyone other than you (also, you’re confusing “when they make an effort” with “when they feel like it”). You’re doing what other folks have been doing here in this thread, which is to narrow your argument to the point of uselessness for the sole purpose of being right. You’re not right, you just don’t want to cede the point.

  360. @Mark

    My problem with #1 is that it implies that socially awkward people are responsible for how others respond to them. When you can make people uncomfortable by your very nature despite doing nothing wrong, you can’t take responsibility for it. That road leads to isolation and self-hatred, and that cycle is a reason that some socially awkward people don’t learn better social skills.

    No, it doesn’t. #1 says you are responsible for your own actions.

    If you and I are talking and for whatever reason (given that it’s me, the reason is probably that I’m “peopled” out but that is neither here nor there) I tell you “I really need to go now” or “excuse me” or even the rudeness of “go away” — it is your responsibility to let me go or go away. That’s it.

    My not wanting to talk to you is not your responsibility. Your insistence on talking to me — particularly if I’ve been driven to the point of being blunt about it (and therefore risking anything from being called a bitch or having my life outright threatened, both of which have happened to me) — is your responsibility.

    If you choose to continue talking to me, cornering me, or engaging in the behavior — particularly when explicitly told to stop that or go away — then you are responsible for that choice.

    No one else made you do it.

  361. What irritates me the most about the whole “aspie” defense is knowing how much effort folks on the autism spectrum put into accommodating neurotypicals—with no expectation of being accommodated, or even understood, in return. Then someone comes along and excuses douchebag creeper behavior as “autism,” claiming the creepers can’t help it, which erases the hard work of those with genuine social disability and misrepresents them as unteachable, empathy-devoid incompetents.

  362. Well, it took me a long time to get through all these, and I didn’t read absolutely every one in detail, but: Let me just say that when an “attractive” woman pushes herself on me, it’s always creepery. I’m not interested in women that way. And many a man, watching this happen, would think I’m being very unreasonable to object. “That was JESSICA FUCKING RABBIT, man!! What the hell is wrong with you?!?” Nothing’s wrong with me, jerkoff. I’m gay. That’s not something wrong.

    The point is not just to point out the casual heterosexism of saying “attractive people can’t be creepers,” but to point out that you don’t know what’s in the creepee’s mind.

  363. katebachus @8:56, sdamot @11:24 — you both win the internet. Please indicate where you would like it shipped.

    Something that I’m seeing a lot of men here not understanding, as far as whether women have an obligation (we don’t) to deliver a clear, firm, polite “no” or “knock it off” — that can actually be DANGEROUS. You are apparently evaluating other men by what you think your own responses would be. We can’t do that. There was an assertion that 85% of the time the response would be a blush and an apology. It’s possible that’s true in some social circles, but it’s not true in the world at large. My life experience is that a clear, firm, polite “no” gets the desired response (the guy leaving me alone) less than half the time.

    Other responses range from:
    1. Becoming immediately physically threatening. How scary this is depends on location, time of day, number and nature of onlookers, and whether the guy is, or might be, armed.
    2. Becoming threatening in a covert, plausibly-deniable-before-a-jury-of-his-dudely-peers way. Go to the Captain Awkward link. Look for a comment by elodieunderglass, wherein she tells the story of Luminous, Awkward Dude, and Dr. Glass. That’s the kind of threatening I mean. This response is downright terrifying.
    3. Becoming verbally abusive. It’s amazing how quickly a woman can go from being the object of some guy’s interest to being a fat ugly c*nt who shouldn’t flatter herself, he was just being friendly.
    4. Most common response — persisting. Not accepting my “no” and trying to continue the interaction. (If it’s unclear to you why this response actually counts as threatening, please Google “Schrodinger’s Rapist” and read the essay that appears at the first link.)

    If he goes with option 2, 3, or 4, the odds are that any bystanders will NOT back me up. In situation 2, they’ll say I’m overreacting. In situation 3, they’ll ignore it as unpleasant but harmless. And in situation 4, they’re more likely to be on his side than on mine. “C’mon, give the guy a break.” “He’s just being friendly.” “Why do you have to be such a bitch?”

    So, before I deliver that clear, firm, and polite “no”, I have to do a threat assessment: how likely is this guy to berate, beat, rape, or kill me if I tell him to go away? No matter who he is, the answer to that question is NEVER non-zero. And all of this is assuming I manage to overcome the massive social conditioning (TW on that post, by the way) that says I’m not allowed to say a direct no.

    (Bart @12:16 — you need to re-read Capt. Awkward if you think those women are talking about men who are actually their friends. They’re talking about members of a common social circle. The second letter writer had already told her boyfriend that the creep in question sexually assaulted her; that apparently wasn’t important enough to make up for the fact that he’s so much fun to hang out with.)

    Guys who are concerned about accidentally being creepy: re-read this list. Read Schrodinger’s Rapist, mentioned above. Read Dr. Nerdlove. Read this post by a former female creeper. And, for God’s sake, keep your eyes above my shoulders.

    (Also, regarding the British need for enough personal space to reverse a bus in, my grandfather was career Army, and had a diplomatic posting for a couple of years. He said the most entertaining part was going to social functions and watching the Arabs chase the Englishmen around the room in slow motion, as each tried to establish a culturally comfortable level of personal space.)

  364. @julie – “That’s why I wanted to point out that *in the larger society*, men and women aren’t positioned equally. I love that it’s not true in your social circle, but it’s true so so so often, especially when people are younger. (I hope to beezus this gets less common as we get older.) And in that situation, women speaking up likely doesn’t change anything, but men speaking up absolutely does, because it changes the rules of engagement.”

    I think it is changing. If you look at the insanity that happened around Miranda Pakozdi and the hate that was leveled against her and THEN look at the follow up. This would never have made the NYT 10 years ago. Now everyone is talking about and certainly all the gamer girls I know are all over it. They wont stand for this kind of insanity.

    You are correct, that in smaller “social circles” the group continues to protect its own, rather than do the right thing. You watch the police and firemen do it over and over. And now we are seeing that the nerds were not immune from the same behavior. They called in character witnesses in Genevieve Valentine case? Really? It was awesome to watch the final verdict come out and the incredibly heart-felt apology. Others will look to this event and learn from it. People who might not have talked about it before are talking about it now.

  365. @paigevest:

    “Your guesstimate is ridiculously low.”

    I am aware.

    “My 17 yo daughter can’t stop at the gas station without attracting unwanted, creepy attention from guys, young and old, who seem to think that complimenting her car is creeper camouflage.”

    Which serves as a great example of how this creepy behavior is, in fact, deliberately calculated and calibrated to creep in under the socially acceptable wire. And that it is not, in anyway, because they aren’t sure what to do with their hands while they’re talking to someone.

  366. As others have expressed, I do feel sympathy for people who lack self-awareness, or who only belatedly realize they have stepped over a line. I’ve been there. But here’s an angle I haven’t seen mentioned yet. Protecting someone from the consequences of their actions is not, ultimately, a kind thing to do. Feedback is how people *learn*. Banning someone is a good, emphatic kind of feedback. Hitting bottom is *good* for you! It means you’ve got nowhere to go but up! If you take the opportunity to learn the lesson.

    All of this is not to say that helping people learn to avoid unacceptable behavior should be the preoccupation of anyone who doesn’t voluntarily take on that job. Bans exist so that the people who remain are safer and happier. But my point is that someone should not be spared because they “mean well” or are “a nice guy.” If they’re nice and mean well, they will learn something from the incident, and the rest of their lives (and the lives of the pretty women they meet!) will be better because of it.

  367. When I attend my first convention in 1978 in New York City I was backed in to a corner by Isaac Asimov. He wanted to “check on the quality of my breasts” I almost escaped when two people grabbed, me, spun me around and held me in place while I was assaulted. I was told, it’s not personal he does it to everyone. I wonder how many male fans still think if they do it to every woman than it’s not wrong.

    I also wonder if the victim at Readercon had been a 20 something nobody we would not be having this conversation. Was René Walling’s biggest mistake harassing someone with a name and a following? Will he be more careful next time to harass a nobody, as he and many other like him have in the past?

    Why are we still having this conversation in 2012? Is the only protection against harassment going to be a programing badge?

  368. If you choose to continue talking to me, cornering me, or engaging in the behavior — particularly when explicitly told to stop that or go away — then you are responsible for that choice.
    I agree 100% about that. But a conversation usually has to degenerate substantially before people actually say “stop”, or walk away. By that point a situation can be very creepy, and a person can feel very threatened. When you trouble reading social cues, it’s not hard to reach that point without realizing there’s something wrong. Without realizing it, a socially awkward person can blow right past the point when a more socially-aware person would have politely walked away.

    The implication of #1 is that the “socially awkward” person is at fault in that scenario, that they are responsible and shouldn’t have let it happen. That’s how I interpreted it, and that’s why I stated that it’s hostile.

  369. I think a good visual example in terms of treating other people’s immediate perimeter is to imagine that personal space is like a SAMSE (Space Age – Mobile – Smoker’s – Environment)*

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih-r2MRlfpA

    That is at least until we all have the option of purchasing our wearable force field projectors to keep unwanted others out of our personal space. Of course, this video also illustrates just what not to do when interacting with people once you have annoyed them, or whose space (personal/business/etc) you’ve intruded upon. But then that is Tom Green’s schtick and part of the joke, so maybe not the most real world example.

    * Please be aware that this post is not meant to mock the serious subject of creepers, but is offered to give us all a nice visual example to conceptually imagine the concept of personal space (the SAMSE), as well as to add a bit of light humor to give us all bit of a breather for just a second. I say this just incase anyone got the wrong idea, as I think this discussion of creepers and social interactions is an important and interesting matter.

  370. other becky says:

    ” So, before I deliver that clear, firm, and polite “no”, I have to do a threat assessment: how likely is this guy to berate, beat, rape, or kill me if I tell him to go away? ”

    EXACTLY. I tend to err on the side of telling people off, but the whole point is I shouldn’t even have to, let alone worry about if doing so will make the situation worse.

  371. @ Jan Dumas:

    At least there won’t be “next time” for Mr. Walling at *Readercon*. And hopefully, Readercon’s belatedly correct example will mean that Readercon will be a better experience for more people.

    It’s not even remotely enough, but it’s something.

  372. Well, there goes my social life! I have Asperger’s and am a functional adult but am unable to wrap my head around #s 1 & 2. I take great care to avoid social interaction. I’m looking for a job that doesn’t require much of it and take great pains to live as close to alone as I can afford. I’m not being a troll here. I’ve been exiled from most social groups for being a creep. Maybe it is time to “close-up shop” and stop trying altogether. Thanks for letting me know I’m not welcome anywhere.

  373. Lorne:

    “I have Asperger’s and am a functional adult but am unable to wrap my head around #s 1 & 2.”

    Really? What part of “you are responsible for your own actions” is difficult to understand? Likewise, what part of “you don’t get to define others’ comfort level with you” is difficult?

    Presuming you are serious, this is a serious question. This is particularly the case because several others have attested that those with Asperger’s are able to incorporate the idea that they are responsible for their own actions.

  374. Lorne, or you could continue down the list, learn those rules or similar ones, and then #s 1 and 2 have more context.

    Each of us IS responsible for our own actions. If we aren’t, who should be responsible for them?

    We do NOT get to define other people’s comfort level with us. And arguing with someone who is not comfortable with you is not going to make them comfortable with you.

    That’s pretty much what #s 1 and 2 say. I’m still not seeing the problem with those ideas.

  375. I admit it – I have been an unintentional creeper. I caught on in my mid-twenties that my behavior with some girls appeared needy and aggressive. When I heard a girl I liked wouldn’t come to a show because I was there, it devastated me. I confided in a friend who dispensed the best advice for meeting women, almost zen like in it’s simplicity: “Find something more interesting in your life than girls.”

    From that day forward, I invested my time in building my career, volunteering with artistic events and learning web design. After some time, girls were giving me their number. I’m no looker, but women like men who have drive and passion. Also, I had things to do that were more important than them, and I think this drove them a little nuts. (Is this true, ladies?)

    The big problem is that men have little instruction when it comes to meeting women. It’s amazing the human race perpetuates at all.

  376. @Anthony Elmore – I think that it wasn’t that it drove them nuts that you had things that were more important than them, it’s that you were a more well-rounded, interesting person over all. And since you weren’t laser-focused on getting into their pants (or inadvertently imitating behavior that looked like that) you probably seemed less threatening and they got to know you.

  377. @Anthony

    Also, I had things to do that were more important than them, and I think this drove them a little nuts. (Is this true, ladies?)

    No, but.

    1) That is my immediate, subjective answer.
    2) That you (the generic you) have an interest, something you are passionate about, gives us the possibility of connecting over that thing. Forming that connection is interesting.
    3) Knowing that you have something to do other than wait around for me is a huge boost for me, because that means I can do the things that interest me, and not have to worry (hopefully!) that you’ll be jealous of my hobbies/interests.

    Not sure that makes sense.

  378. @Judy and @sistercoyote. Good points. Not to say I didn’t bungle a few meetups, but there’s just some things only bad experience can teach. I think when men grow older, they tend to listen more and earn more confidence and women appreciate that.

  379. @Lorne, if you hate social contact and prefer to be alone, why are you complaining about ‘there goes my social life’? You didn’t want a social life with other people, right? Because it sorta sounds like you’re complaining about a restaurant because the food is terrible and the portions are so small.

    @aelmore: Not entirely sure how you mean that. Are you talking about making it clear to women that you have way better things on your plate and they’d damn well better prove themselves worthy of your attention? Or just of having your own life, and they’re welcome to be part of it, but you’re not going to curl up and die if they choose otherwise? The former is kind of a dick move; the latter is simply being a confident human being, and that is attractive.

  380. Mr. Scalzi has posted some good pointers on “not creeping.” As someone who is socially awkward, I’ve learned from the post and the ensuing discussion. I’d agree most adults would have a lot of this down already, but more context is always welcome for people who have to think about how to socialize rather than understanding it instinctually.

    Sadly, I think our entertainment usually reinforces the opposite of what most posters here are saying. How many “romantic comedies” have you seen that convey the so-called virtue of trying and trying again after being rejected? How many geeks watched Star Trek DS9’s sympathetic treatment of Odo’s skulky “Nice Guy” obsession with Major Kira and then rejoiced when the two of them astonishingly became romantically involved? I certainly did.

    Many TV shows and movies are practically instructions in creeperdom. People grow up with this crap seeping into their minds. I didn’t really understand it as such until I reached adulthood. Many others who are less introspective or who don’t get wakeup calls might not learn the lesson until later, if they ever do.

  381. And beloved comedy Sleepless in Seattle is about a woman who stalks (there really is no other word) a guy she just heard on the radio talking about his bereavement. It’s a stalker fantasy from the point of view of the stalker, and turns out the way every stalker expects his (or, more rarely, her) stalking to turn out. Watch it again if you don’t believe me. I watched it right after Nora Ephron died, and boy did the Suck Fairy (and the Creep Fairy) visit that movie while I was gone.

  382. I haven’t gone through the entire long page of comments yet, but this cannot be emphasized enough:

    If you ask out a girl and she says no, LEAVE HER ALONE. If you cannot react gracefully, leave the room. Don’t check back to see if she’s changed her mind. She hasn’t, and she’s not any more likely to change her mind the more you badger her. No Means No applies to you too, Nice Guy.

  383. I’ve been reading the rest of the comments and what really stands out is people are getting pretty stuck on finding a rule (outside of Scalzi’s excellent ones) that can be applied across the board. That would be much easier, if you could always count people to do or say the same thing in a given situation.

    Unfortunately, that’s not the case. Some people will feel comfortable speaking up bluntly, others will hint and still others not at all. You can’t even rely on people’s actions being the same. I’m a case in point – my maternal grandparents were Eastern European and I was raised in a very touchy feely environment. However, I generally do not like to be touched, with exceptions. With the exceptions, I’m very touchy, so if you were to observe me with one of my friends, you would assume that I would have no problem with physical contact or people getting way into my personal space. You would be very wrong though, something that others in this thread have said as well. That’s why #2 is so important – I may be fine with Person A and not fine with Person B, which is why Person B needs to pay attention.

  384. @MrsArkban,

    That’s the thing of it – there does have to be a rule that is clearly understood by all involved (including onlookers) because there are predators out there who will take advantage, and people’s safety is at stake. True creepers are very good at wriggling through loopholes, that’s part and parcel of what they are.

    I’m torn – the Innocence Project is one of my pet causes, and I know that the combination of a bright-line rule and a zero-tolerance policy is inevitable somewhere, and someone not deserving will get a lifetime ban for being as awkward as, well, me.

    But at the same time, there is a culture where a massive subset of the population fears for their safety in public places. Maybe it isn’t just that I should fear a permaban for an awkward conversational approach to someone in a bad place. But it isn’t just that all those people who have testified fear every conversation.

    There is no best answer. There is no good answer. We need to look for a least-bad answer.

  385. I’m distressed by the repeated refrain that people are obligated to express their boundaries clearly. It’s ridiculous. It falls into the “person A can do something as long as person B doesn’t say not to” category. That’s a creep apology right there. You do not get to touch me if I didn’t invite you to. You don’t get to talk to me if I don’t actively consent to talking to you. My existence as another human being does not give you the right to expect anything at all from me. It is not my responsibility to tell you that you’re making me uncomfortable. If I do tell you so, I’m doing it as a courtesy.

    Here’s a thing. When a woman like me is targeted sexually by a man, she has a few options. The easiest and sometimes most effective is just to out myself – “dude, I’m gay.” However, if this one backfires, it can backfire all the way to so-called “corrective rape” or plain physical assault. Whether I’d prefer being stabbed, shot, beaten, raped, or all of the above is not the sort of internal argument I enjoy. So when precisely should I make this boundary clear? When I’m certain, really really certain, that this dude is not going to stab, shoot, beat, or rape me?

    If you want someone to engage with you in any way, invite. Do not assume you can do whatever you like unless they say otherwise. This is a really, really good basic rule – so basic I feel like it could replace some of the above.

    An example of talking-to-strangers-appropriately: this one’s probably culturally specific in some ways, but here’s how it goes where I’m from (Northern New England). Two people are sitting near each other at a bus stop. They make casual eye contact and neither looks away immediately; this is an “acknowledging shared humanity” moment. A slight smile or nod is exchanged, perhaps with a simple greeting like “hey.” After this, a casual and public topic of conversation can be introduced by either person: the weather, the lateness of the bus, a nearby art exhibit. After this has been negotiated and both parties are still engaged, topics of conversation can become somewhat more personal: I love your hat, I’ve seen / never seen you here before, did you just eat at that place? But you cannot (where I’m from) jump straight to “I’ve never seen you here before” without at least doing eye-contact-and-nod first, or you will be creepily inappropriate. And if the person nods and looks away rather than smiling, you’ve had acknowledged-humanity followed by do-not-talk.

    This way of doing things – so normal it’s unremarkable and I do it every day, often multiple times – is all about invitations. At each stage of this proto-conversation, whoever initiates is inviting the other to participate, and giving the other every chance to back out. You can have a brief conversation about how late the bus is and then turn away and it’s over; or you can extend the conversation from how late the bus is today to how it’s usually not too bad, perhaps it’s the weather… etc. This is the purpose of small talk: creating a social space in which people can begin to trust that the other is also a human with some social ability who is therefore unlikely to do something unpredictable and unpleasant.

    The most important part of this – the reason I’m even bringing it up – is that if you invite someone to speak to you (by smiling, making an innocuous comment) and they don’t answer, or answer in brief and turn away, your invitation has been declined and you stop talking. You do not go on talking because they didn’t say “leave me alone.” It isn’t their responsibility to say “leave me alone.” It’s yours to notice that your invitation was not accepted.

  386. …that last should have had trigger warnings. I’m tired enough that I forgot that not everyone lives with the same set of risks and fears I do – and that those who do don’t always navigate that reality in the same way. My apologies.

  387. The more I think about this, the more I realize this isn’t about sex, and it’s also not about a desire for genuine, meaningful human contact. It’s about people who want their ego validated by getting intimate attention (preferably from someone with high social currency value.)

    People who simply want to get laid know very well that there are dozens of appropriate venues for hooking up with others for that purpose. People who are looking for real friends are happy to invest the time necessary to actually get to know someone through mutual activities and interests.

    Only people who are merely seeking the ego boost of getting attention will want to try this on in general spaces, and skip the getting-acquainted phase.

    Truly, such attitudes don’t come from being socially awkward or having an ASD. They come from narcissists and sociopaths. They come from people who want to socialize with others not because of genuine interest in that person, but for some self-focused other purpose. They come from people who see others only as a means to an end.

    And honestly? I’m totally not interested in catering to people like that. Anyone who will actually feel wounded or offended if other people don’t want to give them personal attention on demand isn’t worth accommodating. No concession to their “needs” is ever going to be enough, because they’re incapable of recognizing the needs of others as real and valid.

  388. @Anthony – It could also be that, once you began displaying drive and passion for particular interests, you became more attractive to people who shared those particular interests.

    I mean, me, I have more respect for a well-rounded person than for a needy guy who whines “BUT I WANNA GET LAAAIIIID!!” on every available frequency, but if the well-rounded person’s sphere of interests has no overlap with my own, I’m not going to particularly seek out their company. Whatever would be talk about?

  389. In re: various ‘Well, I’ll just go sit at home, then. Alone. IN THE DARK.” responses: please get off the cross, we need the wood.

    Also, in general? It would be kind of awesome if, when expressing support for anti-harrassment statements/causes/etc, men could avoid framing that support either in terms of “I don’t even like scantily-dressed women; girls with brains are much more interesting!” or outrage at girls who date guys of whom you disapprove (and not you). The discussions of slut shaming and Nice Guy fuckery are kinda off-topic, but suffice it to say that those sorts of statements come off less as awesome feminist ally support and more as sexual policing and extremely sour grapes, respectively.

    @tessuraea: I’ve never seen this broken down so well before, and it’s totally true. I sometimes also can either give or receive an immediate “Hey, awesome dress,” while walking somewhere, without sketchiness. I think it helps that neither person slows down, and also that I/they are generally female, and the tone is very much one of “You have inspired my fall clothing purchases!” rather than “Hey, baby.”

    In general, yeah. Working up to things is good.

    @Nicole: Ugh, yes. Self-pity is one of the less attractive traits out there, especially the Bridget-Jones-esque Oh No I Am Incomplete Without an SO WOE AND ANGUISH crap, which I get from men as often as women. I, as Happy Single Chick, may be biased, but…God, join a book club. Volunteer someplace. Learn to waterski. Accept that marriage and children is no guarantee that you won’t die alone and have cats eat your face, and that being single is not going to automatically condemn you to that fate. Go buy a damn vibrator/fleshlight/whatever. In the words of Dot Warner, please, please, please get a life.

    I mean, everyone needs to vent, and “Lassie, send help! NOBODY’S DOWN THE WELL!” (stolen blatantly from Sarah Bunting) is fine…with close friends who vent about similar problems. Once in a while. Not on FB, not on public Internet forums, and for the love of God, not with people you’ve known for a day and a half.

  390. I have a rule of thumb I’d ask everyone to consider.
    In intimacy of any kind, only YES means yes.
    Surely even socially awkward people can remember that much.

    @ A Meditated Life

    As bizarre as it sounds when people assert that “don’t touch strangers” isn’t something everyone learns, it’s actually true.

    Unfortunately, I think you’re correct about that. And while unsolicited touching/hugging can be about sex and/or dominance, sometimes I think it’s just because the person thinks it’s an acceptable way to demonstrate they’re focused on the person they’re touching. It’s not, and it’s no excuse, but it is I think sometimes the explanation.

    Years ago when someone would touch me without asking, I would snap at them, as I had a just right to do. But having a muscular six-foot-one self-assured dude go from cordial to yelling at you in a split-second is more likely to make you afraid of guys than understand that you’ve violated his boundaries. So I stopped doing that. It wasn’t even cathartic because I’m very self-conscious about intimidating people, my body being much more intimidating than my personality.

    I still tense-up, but my verbal replies are directed at letting the toucher know that what they’re doing is unacceptable. I don’t see it as my responsibility to let them know, and I fully acknowledge that it’s almost never the same when a man does it to a woman (because a woman is rarely the more physically imposing of the two). Also, it’s pretty obvious to me whether someone is touching to signal focus, dominance or sexuality (though I get, because I had to work to learn it myself, that such things are not obvious to everyone, men or women). When it’s the latter two, my replies are, shall we say, much more frigid to let them know they aren’t going to get anywhere trying to intimidate or seduce me. Four out of five times there’s nothing sexual about it, but I suspect the statistics might be a little different for women simply because most women are conditioned to see sexual aggression as “slutty” behavior whereas in guys it’s widely considered normal.

    The dominance-motivated incidents might be a little more even, and I suspect a lot of dominance-signalers don’t realize that’s what they’re doing. The prevailing social conditioning there is that dominance is masculine, and some women I think (often without explicitly realizing it) try to emulate that “masculine” trait in order to avoid being seen as weak. None of this conditioning is worth anything, and I’m careful to note that it doesn’t mean that everyone who does something does it because society conditions them to do it, but the trends are clearly present. People are individuals and trends are just that.

    Nor am I suggesting that this is even a wise way for everyone to handle creepers. As has been aptly noted several times, but bears repeating, instructive responses can be dangerous for many people in many situations, but most often for women dealing with male creepers.

    @ Guess

    First off I want to say that I have never been to a Con. I have watched a few videos on youtube. I see that some women dress up in skimpy outfits for these things. I see people like that as attention hogs. I probably wouldn’t want anything to do with them. Dressing up to look like a character is one thing, but wearing next to nothing is done just to get attention. I find people like that kind of annoying. I am not religious nor a conservative. So it is not a ‘values’ thing to me.

    Actually, it is. It’s the value that you see in women who dress up in skimpy outfits, namely that they do it exclusively for attention. Has it occurred to you that people might dress a certain way likely to get them attention without that being their (only) motivation?

    Why would I want to be the umpteenth guy to go up to talk to them because of how they are dressed?

    Once again, this is a value judgment. What stops you from going up and talking to them for some other reason? Why do you assume that is why people are talking to them? And lastly, why do you assume their lack of modesty is their primary motivation for the outfit they’re wearing? At what area-of-fabric/skin ratio does it become a foregone conclusion that they are interested in showing their skin instead of the outfit or doing it because they like how they look regardless of appreciation from others? Do you dress only for the benefit of others? If not, why assume women do?

    @ A. Noyd

    What irritates me the most about the whole “aspie” defense is knowing how much effort folks on the autism spectrum put into accommodating neurotypicals—with no expectation of being accommodated, or even understood, in return. Then someone comes along and excuses douchebag creeper behavior as “autism,” claiming the creepers can’t help it, which erases the hard work of those with genuine social disability and misrepresents them as unteachable, empathy-devoid incompetents.

    Hell yeah! As a diagnosed HFA, this human shield, as someone else put it, has been ticking me off since it began. I do and have since childhood put extra effort into learning social cues, body language and facial expressions. I’m an actual human being with healthy relationships and a successful career and I sure as shit don’t appreciate neurotypicals unwilling to learn self-control using me and others with actual mental disabilities as an excuse to violate other’s boundaries.

    But even if you’re unwilling or unable to learn these things, how frakking hard is it to follow John’s list of clear, concise, unsubtle behaviors?

    @ Anthony Elmore

    From that day forward, I invested my time in building my career, volunteering with artistic events and learning web design. After some time, girls were giving me their number. I’m no looker, but women like men who have drive and passion. Also, I had things to do that were more important than them, and I think this drove them a little nuts. (Is this true, ladies?)

    Many people, men and women, prefer friends and partners we can regard as equally (though not necessarily in the same way) accomplished, so that we feel that we’re not starting a one-sided relationship. Also, someone with more meaning to their life than dating is a more interesting person to date, and is less likely to be needy/clingy/draining than someone who has nothing else to be passionate about.

    @ spacegoat1701

    How many geeks watched Star Trek DS9′s sympathetic treatment of Odo’s skulky “Nice Guy” obsession with Major Kira and then rejoiced when the two of them astonishingly became romantically involved? I certainly did.

    I don’t remember Odo creeping and in fact I seem to remember him going out of his way to not creep despite his low self-esteem and fear of rejection. But admittedly, it’s been many years since I saw the show, so perhaps I’m forgetting some creeper scenes. Now Quark, who had self-confidence in droves and no fear of rejection did plenty of creeping.

    @ Xopher Halftongue

    And beloved comedy Sleepless in Seattle is about a woman who stalks (there really is no other word) a guy she just heard on the radio talking about his bereavement. It’s a stalker fantasy from the point of view of the stalker, and turns out the way every stalker expects his (or, more rarely, her) stalking to turn out. Watch it again if you don’t believe me. I watched it right after Nora Ephron died, and boy did the Suck Fairy (and the Creep Fairy) visit that movie while I was gone.

    Once was enough, thank you. There are better Nora Ephron films if I’m feeling nostalgic.

    @ isabelcooper

    In re: various ‘Well, I’ll just go sit at home, then. Alone. IN THE DARK.” responses: please get off the cross, we need the wood.

    To quote Xopher, I’m stealing that just as soon as I can file off the serial number.

    Also, in general? It would be kind of awesome if, when expressing support for anti-harrassment statements/causes/etc, men could avoid framing that support either in terms of “I don’t even like scantily-dressed women; girls with brains are much more interesting!”

    Just to be clear, when I said:

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or, to be cliché, everyone’s sense of aesthetics is personal. I like strong, self-confident braniacs who dress elegantly (e.g. not skimpily), but another guy may be totally unattracted to the type of woman to whom I’m attracted.

    …in reply to Wendy Withers saying:

    Preferably someone society would deem a hot chick dressed in skimpy clothing, but a sure thing like a nerdy, shy girl is guaranteed, amiriteguyz?!?!?

    …my purpose was not to frame my support in those terms, but rather to point out that presuming guys are only attracted to women with unconventional beauty because we think they’re easier to sleep with was a less than flattering stereotype. I sincerely apologize if I seemed to be saying anything else.

    I sometimes also can either give or receive an immediate “Hey, awesome dress,” while walking somewhere, without sketchiness. I think it helps that neither person slows down, and also that I/they are generally female, and the tone is very much one of “You have inspired my fall clothing purchases!” rather than “Hey, baby.”

    Being something of a fashion plate myself, I do frequently compliment women’s and men’s couture which I find unique. I don’t think the occasional cool earrings or nice shoes or awesome tattoo in passing comes off as hey, baby, but I will try to keep that in mind in the future when gauging people’s reactions to me compliments.

    Self-pity is one of the less attractive traits out there, especially the Bridget-Jones-esque Oh No I Am Incomplete Without an SO WOE AND ANGUISH crap, which I get from men as often as women.

    You said it. I’ve had far more male friends/acquaintances ask me for relationship advice that female ones, though women might be less bold in asking a guy for advice. I try to be understanding, but their tripping over their own self-pity is their biggest handicap.

    I, as Happy Single Chick, may be biased, but…God, join a book club. Volunteer someplace. Learn to waterski.

    I spent most of my mid-20’s so focused on my career and so not ready to invest the time and energy which I would have considered adequate in a long-term relationship, that I dated only causally. Added to the fact that I don’t sleep with people I don’t know pretty well, this resulted in me being voluntarily celibate for about half a decade. If you think guys don’t look at other guys askance when they don’t date with sex as at least one of the goals, you’d be mistaken.

  391. @Gulliver: Nah, not you–I was responding to the “scantily dressed women just want attention” guy. Sorry for the confusion.

    And thanks! I think I stole the get-off-the-cross thing from someone myself, possibly my mom, so it might actually be a saying somewhere.

    I hear you about the askance-looking thing, really, though I get that in a different way. There are people out there who just don’t get that someone might honestly not be looking for a relationship or sex or whatever.

    I think passing compliments also depend a little on body language and tone, too. I’m likely to be much more okay with “I really like your earrings!” or even from a guy who sounds enthusiastic but casual and who doesn’t come up and loom at me while he says it–the continuing-to-walk thing is the best, there, because it means he’s not pressuring me to respond at all.

  392. On a completely technical note, I would like to thank Gulliver for aggregating his replies into a single post, rather than making multiple sequential posts. Much easier to read, in my opinion (which in this case is the opinion that counts).

  393. @ isabelcooper

    Nah, not you–I was responding to the “scantily dressed women just want attention” guy. Sorry for the confusion.

    No worries. Thanks for letting me know. And yeah, that guy was annoying. I wouldn’t even have brought up the thing I did, as it was slightly off-topic, if not to reply to the perpetuation of an obnoxious stereotype.

    There are people out there who just don’t get that someone might honestly not be looking for a relationship or sex or whatever.

    Yup.

    I think passing compliments also depend a little on body language and tone, too. I’m likely to be much more okay with “I really like your earrings!” or even from a guy who sounds enthusiastic but casual and who doesn’t come up and loom at me while he says it–the continuing-to-walk thing is the best, there, because it means he’s not pressuring me to respond at all.

    I ordinarily do it in passing, or when I’m about to take my leave. Partially this is to preempt thank you’s. I know it’s sort of irrational, but I always kind of feel like compliments don’t need a thank you because I haven’t actually done anything for them, just made an observation. I know it’s irrational though because, on the not infrequent occasions when someone compliments what I’m wearing, my polite instinct is to say thanks :-/

  394. Thanks to all the women who have posted here and given their perspective. Reminders are always good. I thought I’d throw a different angle in here. As a single male college teacher, I have to be exquisitely careful when dealing with my female students. They are all off-limits, period. Not a single one of them registered for my class in the hopes that their instructor would hit on them. To that end, I have some ironclad rules that I follow with my female students:
    1. Never. Touch. NEVER. And never give off body language that invites touch.
    2. Never look at anything but their face.
    3. Never compliment their appearance.
    4. Never remark on their clothing, unless they are violating lab procedures/policies.
    5. Always give plenty of personal space. Let me give an example. We use microscopes a lot. Much of the time, students have a hard time finding what they’re supposed to, and ask me to look through their scopes. I always move to the scope, say, “excuse me”, giving them the opportunity (and a hint) to move away. Then when I’ve found what they’re supposed to be looking for, move away and then say, “OK, now, take a look at this.” I always maintain space, even in a crowded classroom.
    6. It’s OK to be pleasant. It’s OK to be kind. It is OK to joke around. It is NOT OK to flirt. It is NOT OK to be interested (and honestly, I couldn’t drum up interest for a 20-something anyway, but I have to account for nontraditional students). Always be cautious in conversations and err on the side of boundaries.
    7. It’s not OK for students to not follow these guidelines, either.

    I’ve had students criticize my teaching – like writing, you’re never going to make everyone happy – but I’ve never had a hint of a problem with creepy. It’s a major goal of mine to have and maintain a safe classroom. With women who aren’t students? When meeting someone new, I follow the same guidelines (that’s also practical in that I don’t have to shift gears when I get into class). I may be lonely, but I don’t have regrets.

  395. @A. Noyd at 6:00 PM

    @GBCCm
    John defines a creeper as “someone whose behavior towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe.” Note what I italicized there. Creeper behavior is targeted behavior.

    OK, yes. That’s an important distinction. So long as we stick with those criteria, I have much less of a problem. I guess part of what’s been making me anxious is that fandom is traditionally seen as a place where people aren’t required to be completely normal, a place where weirdness is not merely tolerated but celebrated, and I’m worried about losing that, because I didn’t always have that. I’m not trying to defend misbehavior; it’s that some of the rhetoric makes it sound like fandom is going to become a very hostile place to anyone who doesn’t fit into mainstream society, where people like Craig are going to be climbing over each other searching for weirdos to beat up.

    (But then, given the way you quack like an MRA duck about white knights, I’m suspicious of the sincerity of your misunderstanding.)

    I’m sorry; that was a bad move on my part. It was mostly a rhetorical device, to demonstrate that questioning of motives can cut both ways. Craig was pushing my buttons. “Hey, ladies! Is this geek bothering you? I’ll take care of him.” A really, really strong schoolyard bully vibe, a Charles-Atlas-cartoon scenario.

  396. Only because it’s come up in the thread more than once, the Onion actually has a good response to anyone doubting how many creeps women have to put up with on a regular basis: [TW for many, many examples of disgusting things women put up with on a regular basis] Weird, Area Woman Wasn’t Harassed Today

    And THAT is why the assertion that women should confront every single person who makes us uncomfortable is unhelpful. Well, one reason, anyway.

  397. @Gulliver:

    “In intimacy of any kind, only YES means yes.”

    Sometimes, not even yes means yes. Someone can feel too uncomfortable to appear to reject you and so say yes, but keep putting you off hoping you’ll take the hint she REALLY means no.

    I had trouble understanding that a few years ago and wound up learning a hard lesson that people don’t always mean what they say; they might give indications they actually mean the opposite. I resented that at the time, but now I get it.

    So maybe a better formulation of the rule would be, “In intimacy of any kind, only an [unequivocal and enthusiastic] YES means yes.”

  398. Avril: I’m reminded of someone elsewhere who’d said: “Asshole isn’t on the spectrum.”

  399. @ spacegoat1701

    I take people at their word. But then I don’t coerce them into lying for their own safety. As has been established in numerous legal proceedings over harassment, rape, forced police confessions and various other forms of coercion, a coerced agreement has no legal standing. I submit this version:

    In intimacy of any kind, only an uncoerced YES means yes.

    If someone is not free to say NO without fearing for their safety or the safety of others who might be used against them, their consent is meaningless. So unless you’re certain you haven’t even inadvertently threatened someone, don’t accept even an enthusiastic YES until you’re certain otherwise.

    There. No subtle shades of enthusiasm. No disenfranchising anyone’s prerogative to say YES of their own free will. No latitude for third parties to decide when someone can say YES or NO. Just a bright-line of caution for everyone to err on the safe side of.

    That said, if you have any doubts that someone means what they say, don’t take the chance, for your sake and theirs until you confirm that they do.

  400. As bizarre as it sounds when people assert that “don’t touch strangers” isn’t something everyone learns, it’s actually true.

    “Don’t take things that belong to other people without asking” isn’t something everyone learns, either, but as was alluded to before, nobody would defend the guy who shoplifted books out of the dealer’s room, or who kept harassing the guy selling Star Wars replicas to let him just take one badge, or who started screaming at dealers because they thought their crappy merchandise was worth that much money. Nobody would argue hey, maybe the guy came from a culture where stealing from outsiders is allowed, or he has a disorder that prevents him from being able to understand the social conventions about making purchases, or you know, if we ban him from the dealer’s room how is he ever going to get his Spock ears.

    I know you didn’t make that statement to justify or excuse harassment; but it does illustrate how thoroughly fandom has incorporated very non-progressive, mainstream concepts.

    @GBCCm: Some people can’t enjoy that celebration of weirdness because they’ve been pushed out by harassment and bad behavior.

  401. @isabelcooper

    I’ve never seen this broken down so well before, and it’s totally true. I sometimes also can either give or receive an immediate “Hey, awesome dress,” while walking somewhere, without sketchiness. I think it helps that neither person slows down, and also that I/they are generally female, and the tone is very much one of “You have inspired my fall clothing purchases!” rather than “Hey, baby.”

    In general, yeah. Working up to things is good.

    Thank you! And yes, I can frequently get away with ignoring some of what I wrote, because I’m female (sorry guys, it’s one of the benefits of being part of the half of humanity WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY less likely to commit stranger-assault), and because I understand situations and body language and all that fairly well, because I’ve practiced for years. I have been known to catch someone’s eye and smile and told her that she looks amazing. Gotta gauge this stuff carefully, though; it’s like Advanced Personal Interaction. And yeah, it helps if that encounter is intended to be be fleeting. Oh, and I don’t do it unless my genuine desire is just to make someone feel good: I’m going to say the compliment and book it. It’s not about ME getting anything, even a response.

    I remember sitting in the sunlight once (at a demonstration, actually). This woman with a cloud of the most stunningly blond curly hair kept walking past me. Her hair was rich blond and kinky – almost nappy – and there was tons of it, standing out from her head in a fluffy cloud. The sun kept getting caught in it and making it glow. I was enraptured. Eventually I flagged her attention – I don’t remember how – and said “I just want to tell you that your hair is amazing.” She smiled brilliantly and thanked me and that was that. We didn’t talk, I didn’t get her name, I wasn’t trying to.

    I think some people (usually but not always men) who get upset because they feel they “can’t compliment women without getting in trouble for it” are missing this piece. A genuine, heartfelt compliment with no strings attached at all may be well-received, particularly if it’s delivered in a way that makes it very clear nothing is expected. It’s just that you have to really honestly not be trying to get into her pants.

    The gayer I look, the more careful I have to be – there are plenty of straight women out there who find me threatening. So I do understand where some of the straight men are coming from. I have to consider, before I say anything, whether someone is likely to feel threatened by me. The difference between me and a slew of people in this comment thread is that I’m not mad at the women who feel threatened, I don’t think they owe me anything, and I happily do my best not to make anyone uncomfortable. And if I do it well, I get to have positive social interactions with strangers.

    As for the what-about-the-autistic-people thing… Like some others here, I know people on the spectrum. In my case, I have worked supporting people with various disabilities including autism. While people who are socially strange due to a disability may make others uncomfortable, usually because a lot of people have no idea what to expect from them and get spooked, they are capable of not being creeps. Anyone profoundly disabled enough to be unable to learn some version of John’s rules is profoundly disabled enough to need staff support out in public. And the autistic people I’ve known have put careful, concerted effort into learning how to interact socially with neurotypicals, deliberately learning the skills that I acquired as a child, and doing so quite successfully. I wish (as others have said) that assholes would quit hiding behind autism; it cheapens the actual efforts of autistic people, who deserve all the credit in the world when they communicate with us neurotyps, because most of the time they’re doing all the work at crossing that gulf.

  402. @Gulliver there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I didn’t coerce or intimidate anyone. And there was never an interpretation on the part of anyone involved that I did.

    Some individuals just don’t like rejecting other people, and I suspect that might be especially true with some women who have been socialized not to cause offense. And it is not wise to take them at their word alone; you need to pay attention to other indicators.

    So, here’s how I handled the situation I’m referring to then: Upon being told something came up, I asked about rescheduling, because I didn’t suspect what I was being told wasn’t completely true. Here’s what I would say now: “If you’re ever free again and would like to meet up, email me.” In my mind, that would remove the expectation for an immediate answer, thereby not putting the other party on the spot for a yes or no answer, and put the ball in the other person’s court to decide what to do with at a later date.

  403. @mythago 11:33

    Some people can’t enjoy that celebration of weirdness because they’ve been pushed out by harassment and bad behavior.

    I understand that. I’m sincerely sympathetic, and I hope things can improve. I’m just worried. Frankly, being anxious about social situations is just characteristic of me. Much of my lashing out was that I feel personally attacked when some suggest that people with social anxiety are, ipso facto, Bad People who should be taken out back and shot.

  404. @ John Scalzi

    My pleasure. You can thank BoingBoing’s excellent senior mod Antinous for training me. He’s even more OCD about threadiquette (it’s a word now) than you are, if you can believe it :)

    @ spacegoat1701

    there seems to be a misunderstanding here. I didn’t coerce or intimidate anyone. And there was never an interpretation on the part of anyone involved that I did.

    I realized after I replied to you that it might sound like I was insinuating that, which was not my intent.

    So, here’s how I handled the situation I’m referring to then: Upon being told something came up, I asked about rescheduling, because I didn’t suspect what I was being told wasn’t completely true. Here’s what I would say now: “If you’re ever free again and would like to meet up, email me.” In my mind, that would remove the expectation for an immediate answer, thereby not putting the other party on the spot for a yes or no answer, and put the ball in the other person’s court to decide what to do with at a later date.

    Ah, I see what you were talking about now. Yes, people can be evasive when they’re afraid of offending someone or hurting their feelings. I agree with your approach.

    In one instance many years ago where I asked a woman out for coffee and got the I have a prior commitment reply, I gave her my card and told her if she changed her mind or wanted to get together some other time, I’d love to hear from her. That way I put the ball in her court while also:
    1) making it apparent that I realized that she may have made of her mind not to go out with me and just didn’t want to say so for whatever reason,
    2) that I wasn’t offended if it was a rejection, and
    3) that I would not consider her too forward if she did decide to get in touch with me.

    She contacted me two weeks later and we’re still friends.

    @ GBCCm

    Much of my lashing out was that I feel personally attacked when some suggest that people with social anxiety are, ipso facto, Bad People who should be taken out back and shot.

    Since the only thing anyone on this thread has suggested is that everyone, including people with social anxiety, are responsible for doing whatever they have to in order to ensure that they don’t violate other people’s boundaries, I submit that your fear is misplaced and you are lashing out at the wrong people. And just so were clear, boundaries aren’t making too much or too little eye contact, or dressing unconventionally, or speaking too loud or soft, or any other of a millions such things. Boundaries are keeping your hands to yourself unless otherwise indicated, not getting up in people’s face or looming over them, not boxing them in, not following them when they leave unless invited to do so, and other easy to recognize behaviors that infringe on their space, autonomy and ability to get away if and when they choose.

  405. I’ll chime in with support of the idea that, generally speaking, the autism spectrum and/or mental illness does *not* cause the true creeper behaviors Mr. Scalzi’s talking about. In fact, it’s highly more likely that people with those conditions will be victims than victimizers. I’ll also lay down a trigger warning, as I’m about to describe the consequences of a creep-okay society.

    I am female, and have autism. I avoid social situations, quite often, because of the sheer number of times I’ve been creeped on and had no clue how to get out. I’ve been raped, and had other encounters I wouldn’t call rape but would call “sex I didn’t want but had no clue how to say no to.” And in most cases, I was being creeped on in a general social setting, had no idea how to get out, and all too often my so-called “friends” *encouraged* the behavior. This happened on my birthday once, in a completely non-geek setting–I was forced into getting “birthday kisses” and “birthday spanks” and eventually coerced into sex, while my “best friend” encouraged. And nearly all of these behaviors happened in the course of that and other encounters.

    So to guys who think this is somehow unfair: it’s not. This stuff *is* threatening, and it needs to not be seen as okay. I can’t speak to every single person’s experience, and I wish it was more acceptable for folks with autism to go “I have autism, please excuse/explain social faux pas” because I’d see that as similar to someone hard-of-hearing going “excuse me, I need you to come closer so I can hear you.” But for the most part, as others have noted, it’s not autistic behaviors that lead to being truly creepy.

    So, thank you to Mr. Scalzi and others, for standing up for people like myself who wind up victimized by creeps. If the culture changes (and this isn’t just a geek thing, at all) and it’s seen as normal for people (yes, men and women both) to act non-creepy and be aware of themselves, then the truly predatory ones will stand out. One hopes.

  406. Don’t touch? Really? I can think of plenty of situations where touching a stranger or someone you’ve just met is entirely inappropriate. You just need to be sensitive to social mores and to body language (and to your own motivations). Not excusing inappropriate touching at all — generally men touching women they don’t know without an invitation is rude, but not always. Women have much more leeway with men, as do men with men and women with women.

    As for creepiness generally, I think the word is too overloaded. Someone being impolite or too forward or friendly (or gauche, or overly familiar, or making someone feel ‘uncomfortable’) is completely different to groping and assault. The latter are wrong and should be stamped on hard. The former are just life. People are _always_ going to behave in ways we don’t like.

    (And when did making people feel ‘comfortable’ become the goal of social events? Sounds pretty boring to me. I’d rather people were excited or nervous or joyous or something)

  407. I’m too new here to have a good feel for whether or not Geo is best left to our host, so I won’t address his comment for now.

    For everyone who’s saying that a lot of people don’t learn that you shouldn’t touch strangers: I disagree. If you watch people who give off that impression closely, you’ll notice that almost all of them exclusively touch people who are equal to or lower than them on whatever hierarchy is applicable. They seem to understand just fine that you don’t touch your school principal, your boss, or the cop who’s giving you a speeding ticket.

  408. Geo:

    ” Don’t touch? Really? I can think of plenty of situations where touching a stranger or someone you’ve just met is entirely inappropriate.”

    Well, yes. Now, I recognize that you meant to say something else here, but your Freudian slip is instructive.

    If you are going to an activity where touching is part of the activity at hand, then that’s fine. As a general rule, however, a hands off is a good idea UNLESS otherwise specified in the nature of the event.

    Also, of course, if your impulse is to willy-nilly touch people you don’t know regardless , please post your social schedule so I know how to avoid you.

  409. John, an excellent list, and as you say, it’s not sex- or sexual-preference-specific.

    I want to question an idea I think I’m seeing in the comments, though. Some people seem to be saying that someone being harassed shouldn’t be expected to object out loud to the person harassing them. I understand and respect that harassment victims may feel too frightened or uncertain to do that, and that being required to may seem like punishment.

    But in order for the law to act on their behalf, they have to say, aloud, ideally in front of witnesses, “Don’t talk to me.” “Don’t touch me.” “Don’t approach me.” The harassed person’s unmistakable objecting statement protects them from the harasser’s excuse that he or she didn’t understand, or that the victim never objected at all. If the victim calls the police or even convention security, they can take legal action against him and be secure in their right to do so.

    And if worse should come to worst, and the harasser escalates to physical violence, the harassed person, if able to, can defend him- or herself, and be relatively safe from a charge of assault.

    I agree that until the community in general, whatever their sex or sexual orientation, makes it clear that harassment is not acceptable, it won’t be adequately addressed. But I don’t want my community to think that women shouldn’t need to speak up for themselves and defend their rights and interests. If the laws are going to protect us all equally, we have to use those laws as equals, and believe that women are strong enough to accept the requirements of them.

  410. Emma Bull

    You seem to believe that the legal requirements for a successful criminal prosecution must dictate the actions of someone being harassed; I think you have completely lost the plot. There is no obligation for someone to endanger themselves in order to get evidence which will stand up in court, and your attempt to justify this by throwing in the need for a self-defence plea is ludicrous.

    Also, would you please ientify the location of your community so I can avoid going there.

  411. This and a lot of the comments got me motivated to pay more attention to other people’s feelings. Now, caring about other people’s feelings without paying attention to them suddenly feels malignant and manipulative. Making other people’s feelings the first thing I consider seems more like a key to success in life than a self-negating chore.

  412. I’m a mom of a precocious six year old. (This is relevant, I swear. Please bear with me.) She’s six and as such, she is constantly testing boundaries. If I say “Don’t be too loud, please,” she often will then spend five minutes saying “Is THIS too loud? AHHHH?” Yes. “Is THIS too loud? AHHHHHh.” Yes. And so on, until I’m ready to weep with frustration. Sometimes, she’ll start banging a drum and when I tell her that hey, that’s being loud, she’ll point out that *she’s* not being loud, it’s the *drum* that’s being loud. (Like RIGHT NOW, when I’m trying to type this…)

    Often, when she’s doing this, I will have to set an arbitrary boundary that is probably much much lower than if she’d just been quiet the first time I asked. I might take away her frigging drum, too.

    Now, she’s six. Pushing boundaries is her job, developmentally speaking. Setting them, enforcing them, and teaching her to understand them is my job, as a parent. That’s fine. I signed up to be a parent. She needs to learn. It’s cool … if annoying, sometimes.

    If you’re on this thread and arguing “What about this? What about that?” in regards to creeper definitions, then you’re doing that same thing she is — testing boundaries. But you’re not six. You’re an adult. And I’m not your mom, I’m a woman in a geeky space. Since enlightened folks in this article and this thread have explained that a creeper is someone who violates, tests, and treads over boundaries, then you need to understand this: What you’re doing? Yeah, if you did it IRL at a con, that would make you a creeper.

    Sadly, I cannot take away your drum. I’m not your mom. But I can point out that we — Geek Society — may have to respond to this with hard-line rules set a bit further out than we would otherwise.

    If you’re noodling at the borders of the definition of a creeper as an intellectual exercise, then I guess I have to applaud you for trying to learn. Which is not to say you’re not — like my six year old — annoying as hell. But if you are *ever* pushing these boundaries IRL, you are very likely a creeper.

  413. Further to my observations on Emma Bull’s post above I have tracked down the police advice in my community which is London, England:

    “If you know or find out who is stalking you

    Do not confront your stalker or even engage them in conversation.
    Do not, under any circumstances, agree to a meeting to talk about how you feel about them constantly bothering you.
    Do not respond in any way to calls, letters, or conversations. If you ignore the phone nine times and pick it up on the tenth, you will send the message that persistence pays. Once they have your attention, they will be encouraged to carry on.
    Ask friends or solicitors to contact them if you want to get a message to them.”

    You will note that the police advice is the complete reverse of that suggested by Emma Bull…

  414. GBCCm

    I’m not trying to defend misbehavior; it’s that some of the rhetoric makes it sound like fandom is going to become a very hostile place to anyone who doesn’t fit into mainstream society, where people like Craig are going to be climbing over each other searching for weirdos to beat up.

    Look, you need to do better at acknowledging that fandom is already a very hostile place to many people—primarily women—and that’s why people are advocating change. There’s an assumption in your (and Scorpius’) position that women are “normal” outsiders experiencing culture clash when they dabble in fandom rather than being social misfits and full participants in fandom themselves. Stop doing that. This isn’t an attempt by outsiders to change fandom to be more mainstream.

    You seem unduly concerned with possible misunderstandings making trouble for innocents, but you’re overlooking the non-hypothetical harassment, creepage, and douchebag behavior that’s already plaguing a large percentage of fandom. Not only that, but you’re assuming the people looking out for misbehavior will be irrational about it and will act in bad faith, which is insulting. That’s one reason why you come off as trying to defend misbehavior.

    Craig was pushing my buttons. “Hey, ladies! Is this geek bothering you? I’ll take care of him.” A really, really strong schoolyard bully vibe, a Charles-Atlas-cartoon scenario.

    If that’s what you think, you have all the reading comprehension of a gopher wrapped around the tire of an 18-wheeler. Scorpius’ point, much like yours, depends on treating women as outsiders. It’s what underlies the notion that “geeks tend to be weird” and anyone who objects to weirdness is a buzzkill out to ruin geek events. You don’t need to “paint…a detailed portrait of someone being innocuously weird” because those objecting to creeps are the innocuously weird ones. We’re trying to get our weirdness buzz going without creeps killing it.

    The anti-creeps are part of fandom. The anti-creeps like fandom because we’re weird and fandom’s a good place to be weird. We’re objecting to creeps because creeping on people is not “weirdness” but anti-social behavior. When you and Scorpius defend the creeps to the anti-creeps, you are not sticking up for the underdog against meddling outsiders; you are defending things like harassment done by douchebags to their fellow misfits. Craig telling off Scorpius isn’t white knight behavior and it’s not bullying; it’s an attempt to protect fandom from becoming a haven for douchebags.

    If creeps think being asked to take responsibility for their creeper behavior is hostile to them, then that’s a good thing. Being a creep isn’t a necessary part of being a geek, nerd, gamer, whatever. Belonging to a subculture of misfits isn’t an excuse to pretend anything goes. If we drive away creepers who refuse to shape up and respect their fellow misfits, that will make fandom better.

  415. @tessuraea here, such a good description. Thank you.

    @ jokes about raised in a cave, etc. Everyone usually thinks they’re “normal”. One of the great things about this conversation for me is that it’s driven home to me how far my early childhood was from most people’s normal. It was a -great- early childhood, really it was, for a kid, on an isolated working ranch in northwestern Montana. But there were few humans in it for the first three and a half years; my mother, my dad on alternate weekends, when he came home for a day or two. A handful of various neighbors, all adults, all but one Native American, one a Nazi concentration camp survivor. Very rarely other children for a couple of days at Christmas or in the summer. I socialize really well with dogs and horses. Humans are trickier, but I’m learning.

    I suspect most of the creepers are not reading. They may have read John’s opening post, but that’s all. The only change I see he might make is to extend the bit about fairness. Life isn’t fair, period. You may being rejected while you’ve done everything perfectly. You ask everyone else what you did wrong, and they say “I don’t know, nothing, must be her/him.” The person rejecting you may not even know what it is. A passing scent triggered something in their mind and it was ascribed to you. Arguing about it is hopeless. You can’t know. That’s hard to deal with. So is dealing with the idea that sometimes you shouldn’t apologize when you know you’ve hurt someone.

    A week ago I was picking up a prescription, asked the clerk if it was possible there was a good way for me to tell the young lady over my right shoulder than the hem of her skirt was so high her panties were showing. “Not for you, but I can …” she began and interrupted herself to mumble into her headset. She and the two pharmacists erupted from behind their location, surrounding the young lady, another young lady, and a guy with them. All went off to security. Today I heard the rest of the story. The guy, who was the boyfriend of the other girl, was snapping photos of the “Glamour DON’T” for future distribution to his classmates. He didn’t get to do that. He now has no girl friend. And no cell phone. And no car. And a senior year in high school with probably of those things. Probably other social penalties. The other girl, standing beside the fashion victim, had not seen that the dress was climbing up.

  416. Hmm. A couple of people have said “in intimacy of any kind” and gone on to say ‘no’ means “no,” and only a sufficiently enthusiastic ‘yes’ means “yes,” and so on. This is true when the level of intimacy is being negotiated, as between strangers or light acquaintances, and in most cases in public. These are the situations being discussed in this post.

    But I have personally been in situations where ‘no’ means “yes,” and in fact where ‘please don’t do that!’ means “please do that some more, only harder.” Yes, I have. And what meant “no” was ‘safeword’.

    I’m only bringing this up because it’s possible some of you may hear someone tell a story, or overhear an interaction thought to be private by the participants, and get completely the wrong idea. Normally this sort of thing happens in private behind closed doors (or in certain very limited venues where such things are understood)…but I do know one couple who decided they needed better soundproofing on their bedroom after their two-year-old took to saying “yes, SIR!”

    These types of intimacy are carefully arrived at and usually discussed explicitly beforehand. You will not run into them just meeting people at a con (at least not with YOU as one of the principals). Just be aware that the rules can change almost without bound when people are in an intimate relationship.

  417. Stevie, thank you for posting the police advice on stalkers. It’s very helpful. After I’d posted, I came back to clarify that no one should feel required to do something that seems unsafe at the moment or in that place. The best response is going to be a bit context-sensitive.

    The community I meant, but failed to clarify, is the SF convention-going community, but even that’s too diverse for me to generalize about. Still, I think that Genevieve Valentine’s actions (to object to her harasser’s actions, to continue to object, and finally to report the incident to the convention runners and the community at large) were good choices to make in her circumstances.

    I’ve lived through decades in which the conviction that women needed protection led to robbing them of agency and self-determination. This makes me sensitive–oversensitive, maybe–to ideas that sound like special circumstances for women’s protection. I didn’t mean to suggest that anyone, male or female, should disregard her or his own safety, and I’m sorry I sounded as if I did.

  418. @ Xopher Halftongue

    People can, of course, consent to the BDSM play among kink communities and between couples. I wouldn’t, but many do. But there has to be an unambiguous consent before hand. Indeed, in the BDSM scene, open and public negotiation, before play commences, is a key step, and things have been known to go very wrong when that step is skipped or unclear or, in the case of demonstrations, not done in front of the audience. Kink spaces have creepers like any communities, and consent is still central to keeping them in check. I’m not interested in limiting what people can say yes to, even when it’s saying yes to no meaning yes for a prescribed time and place. I’m only interested in making sure uncoerced consent is given so that body sovereignty is maintained.

  419. But then the participants have already established between themselves the situations in which no actually means yes, thus rendering it several miles outside the boundaries covered by John’s post.

    And whilst I am sure that you really don’t wish to provide cover for idiots I am equally sure that some of the idiots will use your post as justification for their “but I thought that no meant yes” whinges…

  420. Stevie, I doubt it. And if they do…well, if they do it at a play party they’ll be among people many of whom have a) whips/riding crops/etc. and b) an unusual and strong reaction to people who whine.

    Not to worry.

  421. @ Stevie

    I’m sure Xopher was just making certain it was understood that people could consent to things that would not look like consent out of context. And I don’t believe he would have raised the issue had I not brought up my rule of thumb for only yes means yes. Anyone who tries to use that as an excuse for ignoring consent is looking for any excuse and is going to find it (in their own warped mind anyway). We can’t go through life censoring ourselves from saying anything anyone might deliberately misinterpret with the logic of a four-year-old. Remaining silent lest we say something they could twist into an excuse only panders to the idea that there are any valid excuses to ignoring consent.

  422. @GBCCm says (August 11, 2012 at 10:41 am):

    where people like Craig are going to be climbing over each other searching for weirdos to beat up.

    Please, just stop it. Even on the level of internet hyperbole, it’s pretty fraking offensive hearing you (and others) insinuate that anyone is calling for anyone else to be “beaten up” or “taken out and shot”. I’d prefer you start posting direct quotes, with citations, the next time you feel inclined to attribute creepy b.s. like that to me.

    Craig was pushing my buttons. “Hey, ladies! Is this geek bothering you? I’ll take care of him.” A really, really strong schoolyard bully vibe, a Charles-Atlas-cartoon scenario.

    Here’s a modest proposal, GBCCm. Don’t like people thinking you’re a harassment apologist/enabler? Stop making it so damn easy! Otherwise, I don’t think any of that is worth a serious response.

  423. Having read the comments to this post and to many other posts on the Readercon debacle (and many other debacles of a similar bent) it becomes apparent that a significant percentage of the SFF reading, writing and convention-attending fraternity take two things as self-evident, namely:
    a) raping, sexually assaulting or otherwise harassing women is conclusive proof that the harasser is on the autism spectrum; and
    b) being on the autism spectrum is a complete defence to any moral, legal or social consequences which would otherwise attend being designated a rapist or other sexual offender.
    That being so, we seem to be left with two choices, assuming that as a community we wish to reduce the incidence of rape and sexual assault. Given the majority of such crimes are committed against women, given that by the definition given above all rapists are on the autism spectrum and (equally) it is unreasonable (and ableist) to expect them to change their behaviour to “not raping” clearly banning all women from SFF spaces is the appropriate way to reduce incidences of sexual assault.

  424. Emma

    Thank you for clarifying; I too have lived through those decades and modified my views somewhat since we originally sought to take back the night. Now I will take help from anyone who genuinely offers it because I think we need to recognise that we are all in this together.

    The difficulty with your compliments about Genevieve is that it rather leaves Kate out in the cold; judging from your second post this is completely unintentional but there are plenty of people around who have made profoundly unpleasant claims about her. People who have been intimidated into silence may never be able to overcome their fear; the fact that she did so in support of another person is remarkable and in my view deeply honourable.

    I think we can agree that it is sensible to follow the advice of the police on how to deal with stalking and harassment, which is more than can be said for quite a few commenters who have claimed that Genevieve had a moral duty to listen to Walling’s ‘apology’.

    What John and others are doing is trying to find ways of educating people as to what is, and is not, acceptable behaviour to others. There will, I think, always be a hardcore of people who are uninterested in anything other than what they want, but that still leaves quite a few people who need help on how to grow up. If that can be provided via a website that’s great; what isn’t great is the suggestion that women, and it’s almost always women, should be landed with that job…

  425. Xopher and Gulliver

    Duly noted, with thanks; I may have been somewhat overheated because of Mo Farah winning the 5000 metres, and I was certainly overheated having watched Jamaica win the 4×100 metres relay.

    In a purely sporting manner, of course!

  426. I was quite heartbroken when I learned that Isaac Asimov (though he was probably not the only one back then,) groped young women at cons and other people excused or even cheered him on, saying, oh that’s just his way, you should be flattered. The young women then were expected to put up with it and not make a fuss because of society at the time. Translate to 2006 and when Harlan Ellison grabs Connie Willis’ breast on the awards podium in a nasty power play, it’s a scandal, Ellison is forced to apologize though his 70-something ass escapes most punishment and any friendship he had with Willis is gone. Because women and men back in the seventies started saying, No, this is not okay and you should know that, things have changed if slowly and inconsistently. Now we have harassment policies at cons with the understanding that there is such a thing as harassment. Now women don’t have to accept being treated as dolls, not people, and it’s not considered ridiculous if a man makes a complaint of being sexually harassed. Kids are taught — in school or by their mom on an isolated ranch — and adults learn not to touch, loom, stalk, pester, bully or talk dirty — to respect others as people who have rights of personal safety. This is necessary to be able to operate in public, at work, in school, etc. Grabbing the female employees in the office is no longer okay (but not that long ago, it was and many women still have to put up with abuses of it.) But change in abuse being less tolerated produces social anxiety and a desire to have the issue go away for many. So we have several prongs of disgruntlement with the idea that sexual harassment at cons is treated as a serious problem and that attendees and staff have to not touch, loom, stalk, pester, bully or talk dirty.

    1) The Asperger’s Harassment Brigade — As numerous people with Aspergers or who work with them have explained, this brigade does not actually exist and trotting it out is really insulting to people with Aspergers and other mental challenges in their lives. But we do have people like Lorne, who have these conditions and say that compulsive behavior they have from them paints them as harassers and thus excludes them from social settings. Lorne did not specify what compulsive behavior he had — compulsive touching, compulsive sexual outbursts (such as someone suffering from Tourettes.) Maybe he just feels that he seems odd and this will be misinterpreted somehow as stalking, looming, etc. As we’ve discussed, folks like Lorne have a challenge and have to take steps to deal with that challenge in life, such as therapy, medication, escorts, etc. These can be understandably hard to come by as the resources and the money for them is continually taken away now in our society. But for a convention, someone like Lorne can contact convention staff, explain the specific difficulty and it’s entirely possible the convention can supply a volunteer to escort the person and help them and allow them to participate. A solution may be found — and sometimes may have to be that it’s not a good idea for the person to attend the event — and it doesn’t require scrapping the basic social behavior of don’t touch, loom, stalk, pester, bully or talk dirty for everyone at the convention.

    2) The Socially Awkward Brigade — Those who are socially awkward are also facing challenges to interacting in society, at work and elsewhere. They worry that their behavior will be misinterpreted. But as has already been discussed, the socially awkward of all stripes are able to learn basic social rules for interaction at work, school, elsewhere. If those challenges are keeping you from participating in certain social interactions, then again, doctors, therapists and what resources you can gather are necessary steps for you to be able to function in life. And again, conventions can be contacted for possible help with challenges in attending the convention. Your special needs, though, again does not mean that we treat everyone at the convention as having special needs, nor does it mean that the other attendees have to put their need for personal safety before your desire for the particular social interaction. And because you have special needs, you need to make that clear to event organizers beforehand, not wait till something happens and cry out that you are an exception — which is something that harassers without special needs often do as an excuse. In the case of all behavior special needs that cause behavior that can impact other people, the person with the special needs is responsible for getting and asking for help with those needs. And they may get help, but there is a difference between that help and letting everyone run amuck, which doesn’t really help those with special needs and social anxieties either.

    3) You’re Cramping My Style Contingent — Sometimes combined with the socially awkward brigade argument, the cramp my stylers want to get laid and would like to go back to the 1970’s when male SF authors could grab female’s breasts at convention so that they don’t have to worry about any obstacles to their quantity not quality pick-up attempts. This was Walling’s philosophy — he treated Valentine as if he was Isaac Asimov in the 1970’s. But we’re not going back to the 1970’s (no matter that some folk try to drag us back there kicking and screaming,) so those in the contingent will have to accept no, it’s not okay and you should know that or get bounced until they learn it, as the one guy in the thread related he did when his friends told him he was being creepy. Think of harassment policies as your sexual tutors — until you start seeing the men and women you are targeting as people rather than targets, you are a lousy lover (yes, even if you’re gorgeous.) And don’t you want to avoid that?

    4) The Women Harrass Too Diverters — These object to an argument that no one has actually made in these discussions — that women never sexually harass; that men are never harassment victims — and insist on stressing it again and again because they’re sure all this harassment talk is just to persecute men as a gender and therefore, we should just go back to the 1970’s when we didn’t have the words sexual harassment. This approach is an attempt to stop victims and others from talking about harassment issues, about the obstacles men still face when they are harassed oddly enough, and the obstacles women face over harassment every day in every social interaction. It’s a shut up argument. People will not shut up, so you might as well give it up on this one.

    5) The I’m Scared Friendly Will Be Creepy Contingent — This would be the guy who asked the original question and Scalzi helpfully gave the guidelines. It’s a social anxiety about changes in equality status that postulates that women are oversensitive and so will feel threatened by innocuous behavior, not just the do nots, and that there will be men who want to beat them up as harassers to show off. And so, wouldn’t it be better to go back to the 1970’s, when females would have their breasts grabbed and so nobody would be analyzing friendliness? (Except we always are analyzing friendliness.) And the answer is no, it would not. The guy who scared the woman on the bus and again when he accidentally ran into her in a jewelry shop (and who is an enlightened guy, don’t get me wrong,) was actually oogling the woman on the bus. And she caught him. He did actually sexually harass her, and consequently, sexually threaten her, because, as he noted, she couldn’t know that he’d not harm her. Just oogle her. And he accepted that she took steps to protect herself thereby. Likewise, if someone mistakes your friendliness for a threat, instead of focusing on your need not to be blamed, focus on the other person’s need not to feel threatened by you further. Like not following the person around (stalking) trying to apologize. Like saying excuse me and going away from that person who is threatened and following the basic rules of social interaction. You’re not going to get thrown out of a con for slightly long eye contact. You aren’t even going to get thrown out for oogling. But touching, looming, stalking, pestering, bullying and talking dirty? That’s not okay and you should know that.

    (Sorry for the length; I’m catching up with the conversation.)

  427. Wow. Massive, massive typo in my first comment. Regarding performing a threat assessment before delivering a “no”:

    No matter who he is, the answer to that question is NEVER non-zero.

    Should read “… is NEVER zero.”

  428. Okay, long-ish story follows, but it’s on-topic, I promise.

    I just spent several hours in a public space, at a Pride festival (yeah, we’re a couple of months late here), talking to a bunch of strangers while being gay gay gay gay gay. This whole conversation was at the top of my mind for a great deal of it. In particular, there was a young woman who sat near my friends and I pre-march when there was no one else around. She was attractive to me, which is what first caught my eye – but then after that, it was just that she was alone and we would gladly have added her to our group. We’re a bunch of sometimes socially awkward, shy, geeky/dorky/nerdy introverts, after all. We always want to make room for the lonely shy people.

    So I sat there, afraid to approach her in case she wanted to be alone or wouldn’t appreciate my attention (scary older dyke and all). I didn’t want to invite her to join us and be rebuffed, but I really didn’t want to make her uncomfortable. I caught her eye a time or two and smiled, but got only a wan smile in return. I thought she was deeply shy, but I wasn’t sure that was all, so I walked away.

    Then, after the march, at the Pride celebration, I bumped into her while chatting with a familiar-faced stranger with a dog. Dogs are great icebreakers… anyway, this young woman made a comment to me about nothing in particular (the snacks on the table I think?) and I was finally able to grin at her and talk. She’d invited me to, with that little line. I mentioned that I’d spotted her on the bench alone and had wanted badly to invite her to join my friends and I but that I’m always worried about making people uncomfortable so I’d chickened out. She allowed as how she would have been pleased but she’s awfully shy. I mentioned the sudoku she’d been doing, and she said that she finds that if she does that she gets fewer concerned questions from older people who think she’s 12 and her parents have abandoned her, heh. A few minutes later she suggested we wander toward a more shady spot to chat and I said “Oh good, I like you!” and then fell all over myself being blatantly embarrassed.

    She met a few of my friends, we made a lot of comfortable small talk, then we wandered around a while. Eventually she found some of her friends and said she was going to join them and I waved her off. She’s something like half my age but if I’d thought to get her contact info I’d be adding her on Facebook right now – she’s sweet and I think she could use older gay friends. Of course, I always think that.

    So how does this all fit with John’s rules? Well, I think I did it right. I followed all the rules (without really thinking about them) and clearly made her comfortable. I managed to look approachable enough that she got over her shyness enough to talk to me, and we had a nice social encounter. I was not hitting on her or trying to; I wanted to make sure she had friends and had a pleasant day. I hope she went on to enjoy herself with her friends.

    Oh, and bonus: the woman from my previous story was there, and said she’d see me tonight and we could dance together. For those of you not reading along, I unintentionally creeped her out a couple of months ago and scrambled to fix it. Apparently I succeeded.

    So: confirmation that John’s guidelines are indeed a good starting point! Granted I’m not particularly socially awkward (or, when I am, I mostly manage to make it endearing rather than horrifying), but she was shy, alone, and vulnerable. I’m older, confident-verging-on-arrogant, kinda forceful. It would have been easy for that to go very badly. If I’d broken any of those guidelines it probably would have.

  429. Eesh. To anyone who thinks this is only a problem in the geek community, or at cons, or who’s trying to make any kind of excuse for the creepers, or to conflate them with the merely socially awkward: go to that link in the very first comment, to the Captain Awkward post. Read *every single comment* before you open your mouth (or type on your keyboard) again. Yes, it’ll take a while. But you need it.

    I found it eye-opening even as a woman. I mean, there are a lot of comments about things that “every woman” knows or has had to deal with, but there seem to be several of us who start out with, “OMG, I’m so lucky *I’ve* never had to deal with __,” only to remember, as we read all these recent posts and comments, “Oh yeah, there was that time…” possibly with variations of “I’ve been trying not to think about that,” or “I explained it away as ‘not so bad’ at the time, because __.” (The blank, in that case, often has to do with the huge prevalence of rape culture, and all the socialization and pressure on women to be so f**ing *nice* all the time.)

    I’m thinking of writing a blog post about my own experience of this, but for now, hmm, quick summary of salient points… I was pretty sheltered growing up, and privileged in a lot of ways. Lucky in some others. So in my first job out of college dealing face-to-face with the general public, I had no idea of what to do or how radically unacceptable it was when a “customer” (I use quotation marks because I was working at a used bookstore and he was selling, not buying), um, mastered the use of the single entendre, as Oz would put it. I told him a couple times in the conversation that I was married. He didn’t care. In retrospect, if it had happened to my slightly older and wiser self, I would’ve attempted to kick him out of the store, and I *certainly* wouldn’t have bought his books, but I was young and sheltered and intimidated. I’d just been trained at this job and it was one of my first days ever working alone in the store. I was extra confused because he had two friends with him, one of them female, and she was so Very Not Helpful in any way. I saw her again later, and apparently that *was* her idea of flirting, but… :shudder: Yeah, it’s a bad sign when you can’t even bring yourself to repeat the words that were said to you. Of course I am so glad, looking back now, that it was only verbal, disgusting as it was. Oh, did I mention that he was at least twice my age?

    I’m not even sure why I’m writing this now. Other people here have addressed the excuses. The Captain Awkward thread is so great, though, and I wanted to get my story off my chest, I guess, especially when I see comments that seem to think this is only a geek problem. Yes, Scalzi specifically starts out this post talking about geekdom, but don’t use that as a derailing tactic. Blech. The guy who harassed me was about the farthest thing from a geek, and as a quiet sheltered nerd myself, my younger self was that much more vulnerable. (Going a little further in that direction, as one awesome commenter pointed out over there, if you want to whine about the Aspies, maybe you should think about the female Aspies who are even more likely to be harassed or assaulted.) I really wish I’d already been exposed at the time to threads like the one on Captain Awkward’s post.

  430. @Kat Goodwin

    Your point #5 is interesting to me. I’m not actually always scared my friendliness will be creepy, but I do keep it in mind, and it’s a concern – and I’m not a man. I’m also not trying to derail the conversation. I’m genuinely interested in making sure that people are comfortable or at least that I am not contributing to their discomfort. I think there are definitely others in this category, men included, who are genuinely well-meaning and doing their best not to be awful, and have some anxiety about that. Which is, of course, precisely what the original post is about – how to not be a creep, for those genuinely worried about it. They don’t all want a return to outdated social rules. Some of them want badly to be able to socialize with people without making them uncomfortable, and aren’t confident about their ability to do so. I sure as hell don’t want to go back in time. So maybe there’s a subsection of category 5 – well-meaning people who are honestly working on learning to navigate the social world.

    The gender stuff is fascinating for me, too – as a butch lesbian, I’m a woman, but one who is sometimes seen as more masculine by others. I have to take some of the same precautions as men do if I don’t want to make women uncomfortable. Not all of them – I still benefit from being female. Also I’m physically nonthreatening, short and roundish. At the same time, lots of people have gay panic, so I have to be careful about that. Keeping straight women, particularly young straight women, from assuming I’m hitting on them when I am decidedly not is something of an art…

    John’s rules are still a good guideline and starting point, there’s no question. But it’s a slightly different landscape for those of us whose gender presentations aren’t precisely masculine or feminine.

  431. @Kat — yea, you! Probably the biggest problem I still have from that isolated upbringing comes from eye contact. Most of those around me then were from a “glancing contact” culture, and I find it difficult to maintain what’s considered normal eye contact.

  432. Kat Goodwin @ 7:09

    That breakdown is helpful–thank you.

    Here’s the thing, though, on the Aspergers/socially awkward category. It is entirely possible to learn to not touch uninvited. It is entirely possible to understand “please go away” and “leave me alone”. And as you said, if you can’t do those things, you need a support person of some kind in a social setting.

    But the flip side is that it is NOT always possible to figure out how tell whether and how to join a group of 5 people, who are chatting, in a non-awkward fashion. I’ve been trying for 20 years and still have to ask a fair bit of the time. It is NOT always possible, or desirable, to be the sort of person that others aren’t made uncomfortable by (as in GBCCm’s examples). If I believed that our host’s “toward” was going to be strongly interpreted to exclude non-targeted behaviour, and “uncomfortable” was going to have some kind of “reasonable to feel threatened” standard applied, I wouldn’t be worried. But in a conversation with one person giving off a strong “is this geek making you uncomfortable? Let me deal with that!” vibe, the question of “why should we care if it’s an unsafe environment for the socially awkward?” floating around, and a vast amount of cheering for zero-tolerance policies? My history, and that of too many of my strang-er friends, is that exactly that dynamic gets really unsafe, or really exclusionary, very rapidly.

    Absolutely, yes, women should be able to attend cons without being cornered, grabbed, and otherwise mistreated. I haven’t any issue with that standard, and I haven’t any issue with zero-tolerance policies for behaviours like that.

  433. Marcy

    Thanks for the quick summary; I would certainly be interested in the full account should you ever wish to put it into the public domain.

    And I think getting it off your chest is an excellent reason to post! It stands in proud contrast to the people posting to massage their egos…

  434. @SamChevre, I for one am with you five by five.

    The rules are basic, and simple to understand, and by violating them you have already crossed the line. Everyone should (must?) follow them – the great thing is that most people will follow them out of consideration to others, and a lot of the rest will do it out of self-protection. At least when and if it snowballs.

    One thing to keep in mind, though. Freedom from harassment isn’t a privilege of some, it’s a right of all. The way to progress is to enforce that everyone has access to the basic rights that all are entitled to..

  435. One of my wife’s comments on the “Graying of Fandom” problem has been that fandom may be a bit less necessary for kids today than it was for us – it was a safe place for people who are both enthusiastic about non-mainstream things and also sometimes socially awkward to be social and enthusiastic about them, and today it’s a bit more acceptable for kids to be geekily enthusiastic about non-mainstream things, and some of the things that were non-mainstream when we were geeky about them are more mainstream, and they’ve got more choices of places to be social. And the kid who goes on and on about his role-playing game character may still get an eyeroll from the person in the extremely authentic Star Trek uniform – but it’s not going to be a very _big_ eyeroll.

    But if we’ve lost that safety because half the people who would have been there feel creeped out by some of the other people, that’s really bad, and really unfair to the people who don’t feel safe. And for the people who are to excuse creepiness by saying that there are lots of socially awkward people there, it’s not just that there’s a difference between somebody who won’t stop talking about their RPG character while staring at your face vs. somebody who won’t stop talking about their character while staring at your chest, or somebody who won’t stop talking about their character because they know you’ll feel awkward about interrupting them, but they’re really doing it as a cover for staring at your chest. It’s also that they know it.

  436. Tessuraea: “Some of them want badly to be able to socialize with people without making them uncomfortable, and aren’t confident about their ability to do so. I sure as hell don’t want to go back in time. So maybe there’s a subsection of category 5 – well-meaning people who are honestly working on learning to navigate the social world.”

    It’s not the sub-category, it’s the main category. I don’t think the guy who asked the original question was consciously thinking, let’s go back to the 1970’s. But unconsciously, yes, he’s wishing for that culture in which he does not have to worry about it, in which women were not simply covertly supposed to put up with it (as often happens still today,) but overtly supposed to put up with it. And for that matter, the culture in which gays were hidden so no man, gay or straight, will mistakenly think that he’s hitting on them. Because then nobody would be upset and get mad, etc. Perfectly understandable anxiety. But also over-exaggerated and out of a need to have the responsibility for managing social interaction taken off themselves. Nobody wants others to think badly of us, usually. But the reality is that a culture that doesn’t pretend the bad behavior doesn’t happen from some people is a culture that is going to be better for everyone, including the anxious, as you note. So learning to manage the social interaction as Scalzi did when he realized he was going to be a babbling idiot in the presence of the beautiful Ms. Kowal (see other entry,) is going to be better for a person in the long run and for the culture than trying to accommodate anxiety of hypothetical situations that are probably not going to happen and the slight discomfort of someone looking at you like you’re weird for thirty seconds and moving away from you or you moving away from them.

    You, as a lesbian, unfortunately have a different tightrope to walk that is maybe more akin to the Sikh in the bigoted diner. Which is stupid, but we’re still evolving.

    Sam Chevre: “But the flip side is that it is NOT always possible to figure out how tell whether and how to join a group of 5 people, who are chatting, in a non-awkward fashion. ”

    It’s not easy for anybody. And sometimes they shut you out and you go away. It’s not going to end your world. Your assumption that guys are dying to beat you up seems to me to be one of those exaggerated anxieties. Guys may be protective, they may even make threats in certain situations, but they are unlikely to do so just because you joined a conversation for a few minutes. That you feel a “vibe” does not mean that you have successfully read their minds. (And this is one of the problems with threat assessment — we can’t read people’s minds.) The odds of them following you (stalking) and beating you up are low — we do not have high statistics of con beatings. And a threat of someone beating you up is the same as the threat of physical violence in sexual harassment — it threatens the safety of people at the con and may involve contacting con staff about the threat and possibly the police. It can also be subject to zero-tolerance policies. So if you feel awkward in a situation and the other people seem uncomfortable and trying to detach (which is not necessarily that you are seen as sexually harassing or that someone wants to beat you up,) you leave that group. Since people are there to have a good time, they’re usually not trying to get into a fight with you. And if you feel that you simply cannot judge these things, that you have special needs, then you need to get help with them if you want to go to those events. Weirdness as in eccentricity or awkwardness is not weird at SFFH cons. So if you are not touching, looming, stalking, pestering, bullying and talking dirty, the fact that you are really bad at conversation is not usually a big issue. But it doesn’t mean that people will always talk with you.

    Even actual harassment behavior may not end up being a big issue. I was at World Fantasy once and a guy who was clearly a bit drunk, a genial sort of drunk, tried to chat up a blonde woman in our group, which she put up with, with a tight smile. Two other men in the group and I circled in, talking to the guy, keeping an eye on him re what he was doing, but not being hostile to him or threatening him. He also flirted with me a bit when I engaged, but since I acted maternal towards him, telling him maybe not drink any more alcohol, I was not who he was focused on. But he realized that he wasn’t getting anywhere or that he was making an ass of himself and wandered off. We did not follow, the men in the group did not threaten him even though they were protective of the blonde woman, though we did shake our heads a bit after and it wasn’t fun for the blonde woman. (It was normal, though, it’s normal for women.) He didn’t touch, bully, or stalk or really talk dirty. But he did loom and he did pester somewhat. He left the group — he did the right thing and hopefully lay down somewhere safe. I have talked with people at cons who have speech problems and take a long time to talk. I have talked to people at cons who rambled on about Mason conspiracy theories, computer viruses or way too much info about their family traumas. I’ve talked with a guy who was wearing nothing but a diaper in costume. But that’s not sexual harassment, which is what we’re talking about. And assuming that people see sexual harassment around every bush is part of the culture that wants to minimize the problem because it is a very uncomfortable to have that problem brought up. It’s not a choice between tolerance for sexual harassment or tolerance for threats of physical violence. We don’t want either because they endanger everyone.

  437. @Emma Bull: The solution to patronizing and treating women like children is not to run as hard as possible in the other direction and make women not only 200% responsible for their own actions, but for everyone else’s, to the point of invention what “the law” requires of them.

    @GBCCm: So, really, you’re saying WHAT SORRY CAN’T HEAR YOU OVER MY OWN ANXIETY SO I’LL JUST MAKE UP SOME SHIT AND PRETEND YOU ALL SAID IT, OKAY?. Nobody has said anything remotely like what you claim. You are saying things with no basis in reality. This is especially weird given that Scalzi’s entire fucking point is that, if you’re a socially awkward person, you can do several things to prevent accidentally creeping. You don’t seem interested in that; strange, because one would expect a genuinely socially-awkward person to appreciate a straightforward how-to instead of doing a credible imitation of a non-awkward apologist.

  438. @ Kat Williams

    So we have several prongs of disgruntlement with the idea that sexual harassment at cons is treated as a serious problem and that attendees and staff have to not touch, loom, stalk, pester, bully or talk dirty.

    With the talking dirty thing (and I’m guessing you mean talking about sex and directly sexually related topics), my personal rule of thumb is that I will only talk about that subject with a woman I don’t know fairly well if she brings it up first.

    (Sorry for the length; I’m catching up with the conversation.)

    Don’t forget the I’m uncomfortable with the term creep/creeper/creeping concern brigade. Don’t get me wrong, I understand why they might feel that way, since creep has long been used simply to other people who are different, and not actually creeping as described in this thread. But here’s the thing, creep actually does mean creep, and there really are plenty of actual creeps, and throwing away a word for a hostile behavior because it’s been misapplied to denigrate non-hostile people is silly. Once upon a Deep South not so long ago, rape was used to describe any black man who had an affair with a white woman, even a consensual one. We didn’t toss out the word rape and were not tossing out creep.

    @ tessuraea

    So how does this all fit with John’s rules? Well, I think I did it right. I followed all the rules (without really thinking about them) and clearly made her comfortable.

    I think that’s half the battle right there. If you’re keeping the other person’s comfort in mind, you’re exponentially less likely to do something to creep them out. And really, that’s just basic courtesy. As Troy (played by Dave Foley) reports Adam Webber (played by Brendan Fraser) teaching him in Blast from the Past: ”I know, I mean I thought a gentleman was somebody that owned horses. But it turns out, his short and simple definition of a lady or a gentleman is, someone who always tries to make sure the people around him or her are as comfortable as possible.” [emphasis added by yours truly]

    So maybe there’s a subsection of category 5 – well-meaning people who are honestly working on learning to navigate the social world.

    What I took from Kat’s post was that the people concerned about being creepy while friendly weren’t the problem, but rather that the people trying to use that as an excuse for violating boundaries were. And that’s the opposite of what you were doing. That was my interpretation of her point, anyway. I’m sure she can speak for herself, and I may have it completely wrong.

    @ Marcy

    I’m not even sure why I’m writing this now.

    Seemed pretty dang salient to me. Thanks for sharing.

    @ htom

    Probably the biggest problem I still have from that isolated upbringing comes from eye contact. Most of those around me then were from a “glancing contact” culture, and I find it difficult to maintain what’s considered normal eye contact.

    When in doubt, brief eye contact is less threatening than staring. Also, brief eye contact with a friendly noncommittal smile and then looking away and thinking about something else (which will show on your face) demonstrates acknowledgement without undue scrutiny. Just some thoughts.

    @ Stevie

    And I think getting it off your chest is an excellent reason to post! It stands in proud contrast to the people posting to massage their egos…

    I know this (probably) wasn’t directed at me, but if I ever come off that way, please tell me. I know I can be pedantic and long-winded in my replies, and I wouldn’t want to torpedo my chances at a constructive conversation, so letting me know, if you’re so inclined, is helpful.

  439. @Stevie, you’re welcome and thanks. I’m not sure how much more detailed I’ll end up being before I actually sit down and write it, but if I do make a blog post out of it later, more detailed or not, I’ll be happy to link here. (Oh, unless this particular comments thread is shut down first. In which case, um, well, my blog is linked to from my name. You can keep an eye on it if you like. Or not.) And there are plenty of other stories in that Captain Awkward thread, many very sad and/or shocking ones. If I’m unique, it’s probably in how few stories I have of this nature. I think that’s part of what made me hesitate to post, though there’s been less of it here. I think. I’ll admit I haven’t read every comment this time, I skimmed a lot. I read them all over at Captain Awkward earlier today and was a little burned out, though it was a fascinating thread.

    Part of why I’ve been thinking about blogging this… between these and some of the comments on posts about ReaderCon… I’ve seen a few about how helpful it can be to our daughters etc. to see examples of women not putting up with this crap (in a context that makes it very clear that they aren’t blaming victims for not being “assertive” enough). I try to write to let people know they’re not alone, and I worry about other girls like I was who haven’t seen many good OR bad examples, who are a bit naive and might get a very rude awakening someday. With my eyes opened a bit more and thinking about how often I’ve worked at such small companies that harassment from coworkers hasn’t been a problem (statistically less likely to have those “every company has one” when you’re drawing from such a tiny pool)… well, now I’m worrying about my little sister working at Intel — great company, she’s had very positive experiences, but man, there are so very few women around… I’m going to have to talk with her, make sure she’s a little more aware and alert to danger than I was. I’m sure her intuition is great, but I’d still like her to be explicitly on guard beforehand to certain situations. Blech.

    Oh by the way, when I addressed my comment to anyone “who’s trying to make any kind of excuse for the creepers, or to conflate them with the merely socially awkward,” I didn’t exactly mean the guys Scalzi’s talking about in his OP, who are trying to not accidentally be creepy. To those trying to learn, great! I’m talking about excusing obviously way past the line behavior, as some have done in this thread. Okay actually, regardless of which type you are, even if it is “accidental,” if it’s happened, you don’t get to try to make things up with the person you creeped out, or anything like that. So in that sense, still, no excuses. Just to be clear. Other people have said it, I just realized in the context of the OP I could be misinterpreted.

  440. @ Other Bill

    Thank you. That means a lot to me coming from a long-time well-spoken regular contributor such as yourself. All the same, my offer stands, if ever I do get full of myself, to take me down a notch.

    @ Marcy

    If I’m unique, it’s probably in how few stories I have of this nature. I think that’s part of what made me hesitate to post, though there’s been less of it here.

    There was a time when I was younger (still in college) during which I was dealing with severe clinical depression as a side effect of prescription medication I was trying to cope with my HFA. There were several episodes where my depression reached dangerous levels and I would feel ashamed for being depressed because, hey, I had it better than the vast majority of Earthlings, so what the heck did I have to despair about. Of course, neurochemical depression isn’t about life (externalities are merely the triggers), but reason is not at its strongest in those lows. Anyway, my point is that just because others have it worse doesn’t invalidate the shit you went through, and you should never feel ashamed of the things you went through, IMO. Life isn’t a zero-sum game of victim bingo. And when you choose to speak out about your bad experiences, you lend support and solidarity to the people who have gone through more than you have.

    I’ll admit I haven’t read every comment this time, I skimmed a lot.

    Heck, even I’ve barely skimmed a few of the longer comments, and it hasn’t stopped me from speaking up :]
    Conversely, given the length of my replies, I wouldn’t blame anyone one iota if they skimmed or skipped them.

    With my eyes opened a bit more and thinking about how often I’ve worked at such small companies that harassment from coworkers hasn’t been a problem (statistically less likely to have those “every company has one” when you’re drawing from such a tiny pool)

    As a former co-owner of just such a small firm, I can also add that it’s easier to deal with harassment proactively from the top without the bureaucracy of a big HR department, making it harder for a harasser to hide in a crowd. The flip side is that we had to be proactive, because we couldn’t afford the kind of large settlements that can result from screwing up an investigation.

  441. @Gulliver:

    ::clipped head nod with a half wink from the left eye:: Well, I don’t know about any of that. ::stops slouching and stands to my full 5’8, looks you squarely in the clavicle:: And don’t you forget it.

    @Macy:

    “I try to write to let people know they’re not alone, and I worry about other girls like I was who haven’t seen many good OR bad examples,”

    I’ve been reflecting on this, with the recent topics. And, I’d like to share a thought that I had in the light of all of this line of discussion. I’m a statistics guy. I love statistics. I love winning arguments with statistics. Not only am I master debater, but when we go to the books for a ruling, winning confirmed. **In my head, at least.** And that’s such a complete victory.

    I don’t think I’m particularly unique in that respect. But in those debates, I hear a lot of down talk about anecdotes. And, I wanted to point out all anecdotes are not created equal. In the sense that if I say “Well, the convenient store down the road from me doesn’t sell Snickers dark chocolate version, therefore they are hard to get everywhere” that isn’t useful anecdata.

    But, when someone takes the time to reflect on a painful memory and coherently capture it in a series of words and sentences they’ve done something that is NOT a poorly drawn conclusion from self serving limited information. There is painfully earned insight to the human condition in each of these…vignettes. Insight that can be used to form meaningful conclusions about humanity. It takes a tremendous personal, emotional investment to spend the time reflecting on them and no small amount of effort to present them coherently.

    I think any time someone takes the time to share a human experience – to help shine a light on parts of humanity that we may not all have direct experience with – it deserves respect. Because, well, we don’t all live the same lives. And, sometimes we have shared experiences that we don’t know about.

    I don’t think anyone is obligated to share any of these vignettes. But, when they do, I pay attention and appreciate the effort. To everyone who’s shared their personal experiences for the betterment of the conversation: thank you.

  442. Gulliver

    Do not worry; in the highly improbable event of you needing to be taken down a notch our favourite guy with a mallet will do so with his customary aplomb, and we will have the fun of watching…

  443. I wish more men understood this. Number 5: I’ve had men run their fingers and hands up my bare legs. A casuel aquaintence once pulled my t shirt coller open to peek down my shirt and made some sort of remark like “oops” or “wow” I can’t remember. I’ve been told “smile, it can’t be that bad!” by random strangers. I’ve seen 50 something year old men nearly break their necks leering at 11 year old girls. It’s sick. When all of the above happened to me, I was so stunned I didn’t say anything, plus I felt that somehow I asked for it, or felt I shouldn’t be so angry for someone telling me to smile. F**k that now. I call out bad behaviour now plus my I Will Rip Your Face off and Feed it to You Via your Rectum vibes have put a halt to all that.

  444. There’s a big thread of “if you’re socially awkward it’s different” running the comments that I’ve read.

    That’s just victim blaming by stealth.

    Socially awkward isn’t a get out phrase. Saying “oh, well anyone who suffers may as well not go out if these are the rules” is suggesting that a) everyone who has difficulty interracting will always make these mistakes, which is a very, very fatalistic and unrealistic attitude, b) is saying that when told that they’re violating my space, they won’t take the hint. Yes, there’s going to be a lot of paranoia about wandering up to total strangers during a con and engaging in a conversation, but this leads on to another issue that I see coming through…. A con is not something apart from the world. If you can operate in general society, it’s not hard to take that level of operation with you when you go in to a con. Yes, it’s different to, for example, a bar in that everyone there is there for a shared reason, but the basic rules remain, don’t they?

    “you’re being nasty to SA people” is suggesting that the person being spoken to is stupid. Guess what? A lot of the time, it’s possible to tell the difference between a genuinely awkward/ aspie/ whatever person and a creeper. By saying I should let any uncomfortable behavious slide because I may upset someone who is awkward assumes to take away my ability to judge someones intentions and assumes the other persons SA-ness makes them an idiot.

    Finally, c) the suggestion that I, as a person (not just tits connected to a vagina, dressed for your pleasure) shouldn’t say “I don’t feel comfortable right now, don’t do that”, because that would make me a bitch and a big meany because I may upset someone who could potentially be SA. If I won’t take that shit on the street, I sure as hell won’t take it in any other environment.

  445. Typing this on my phone now, on a keyboard that‘s weird about apostrophes and quotation marks. Sorry about that.

    @Gulliver and @Other Bill, thank you. More specifically, @Gulliver, “Life isn‘t a zero-sum game of victim bingo.“ Heh, very true, thanks! I do know that, it just made me doubt a little more that I should be the one to speak. And hey, knowing it in my head or not… yeah, I‘ve had some of that experience with depression, too. Sometimes I had very tangible external reasons for it, sometimes not. Sometimes I had the external reasons, but they were a little trickier to place. You‘re right, none of that invalidates the depression. I‘ve also experienced that with childhood family issues (“But you know, it‘s not like my parents ever beat me…“) and even sometimes with my mom‘s dementia.

    Because yes, dementia is bad, very bad. I‘m only 29, that makes it worse. 27 when she was diagnosed. (My mom‘s 71, I‘m one of the youngest in an extremely large family.) But I‘d catch myself arguing against my own pain with “well, we‘re not that close“ and “I‘m not one of the caretakers, so it isn‘t so hard on me“ and “she‘s not very far gone yet, just has a hard time making decisions and finding words for things…“

    Anyway, all that to say, point taken. :)

    As to the skimming, heh, also yes, but maybe “skimming“ is a rather generous word for some of what I was doing. :) And with all the mental and emotional energy I expended reading the comments on Captain Awkward, I didn‘t think I was following the threads of argument here very well, and that‘s why I wasn‘t sure how coherent or relevant my comment was to the issues currently being discussed this far down the thread. Or if someone else had already said the same things, but better. Much as I like to write, that does happen over here at Whatever! But you guys thought it was relevant, so thanks, I‘ll consider the matter closed. :)

    About small firms, good point. I‘ve worked at super small places, I think most of the time I was at the used bookstore there were about eight or nine people there, counting the owner and the janitor. And myself. Another time I worked for a brother‘s startup and there were even fewer, all related to me. Didn‘t have a problem with coworkers, but I saw at the bookstore how it could be easier to deal with problem customers than at a chain (other than before we moved to a bigger location, when only one person would be working at a time, *that* didn‘t make things easier), since you didn‘t have to worry about idiotic policies that kept you from “firing“ the worst offending customers.

    @Other Bill, thank you for your respect of vignettes in this context, even as a statistics guy. It‘s true it‘s hard to determine from stories how widespread a problem is. Of course, with these problems, it‘s also hard to tell with statistics, because how much harassment is actually reported? I certainly didn‘t report the incident I talked about here. And catcalls on the street? Ha, yeah… “Painfully earned insight to the human condition?“ I like that, that‘s a good way of looking at it. Many other things in my life have been far more important to me and painful than that story I shared, but, well then, see the above about the “zero-sum game.“ It happened, and it‘s relevant, so yeah, thanks for the attention and appreciation. We‘re lessened when people keep silent because they don‘t have a safe place to share these stories.

  446. Marcy

    “We‘re lessened when people keep silent because they don‘t have a safe place to share these stories.”

    That is a really important point which is so frequently overlooked; I am grateful that John has provided that safe space, particularly since he had originally intended to take a hiatus in August because he has a lot of other things to do. Instead he has written at length on these issues, and moderated the vast numbers of responses, thereby using up vast chunks of his time for the good of us all.

    That was one of the reasons for my response to Emma Bull’s second post above; I have changed my views over the years and now I welcome help from anyone who wants genuinely to help. We are all in it together…

  447. @Marcy:

    “Of course, with these problems, it‘s also hard to tell with statistics, because how much harassment is actually reported?”

    Exactly this. And I think the more safe places we can create to report these things even just to a group of friends or a community is hugely valuable. So that people (dudes) understand that none of what is being discussed is rare, unusual or trivial. So that maybe we can move beyond BUT I DON’T KNOW HOW TO TALK TO LADIES as a response.

    “Many other things in my life have been far more important to me and painful than that story I shared, but, well then, see the above about the “zero-sum game.“ It happened, and it‘s relevant, so yeah, thanks for the attention and appreciation.”

    I sincerely hope that I did not give the impression that I was commenting on what I think the importance of that should be in your life. Just to be clear, I think those vignettes are powerful knowledge sharing tools. And I think the importance you assign the event described in your life is not for me to comment on. Their value as awareness raising pieces is not correlated to however you choose to categorize them in your life which is entirely up to you.

    “We‘re lessened when people keep silent because they don‘t have a safe place to share these stories.”

    Yes. I mean, my short response here is yes, what she said.

  448. So, I went to Georgia Tech. At the time I attended, 75% of the students were male. Rather by definition, an Institute of Technology is attended by geeks, many of them with awkward socialization.

    Any reasonably social female student ended up surrounded by male students; some on straight-up friendly terms, but some half-convinced they were in love with her, just because they hadn’t had all that much interaction with women at all so far in their lives. That’s not creepy, although sometimes it was sad. If any of the guys had tried to go past my comfort level uninvited, THEN it would have been creepy, but that’s still not the same thing as awkward and geeky and socially unskilled.

    By the time I graduated, my extended social circle of fellow students had a handful of women and probably 30ish men. ONE of them tripped my creep-meter; he tripped the creep meter on just about all of us, men and women combined. That one was not the awkward geek that people like to portray as the unintentionally creepy guy. No, he was one of the more socially accomplished, confident, and smooth guys. He just tried to take “smooth” all the way up to “slippery,” and he made us all uncomfortable. As someone says above, perhaps in cases like this, it makes more sense to say that this sort of uncomfortable translates to “threatened.”

    The things that triggered the creep-meter were small and he managed to play them off as over-reactions by the woman involved: touching women in inappropriate places and trying to claim it was accidental or just a joke, making inappropriate suggestions and trying to claim it was a joke, using domineering body language to try to convince people to go along with his version of events. In short, he combined physical & emotional intimidation with the possibility that if you made a serious complaint about him, no one would take you seriously, because he was always “just joking around.” Would he have gone far enough over the line to make it criminal? I don’t know; I wasn’t about to give him the opportunity.

    Any time he went over the line he tried to play it off as “awkward geek made a mistake,” but he was *not* one of the awkward geeks; he was just trying to take advantage of the stereotype. People harping on that stereotype aren’t giving their awkward geek friends enough credit. They are making it easier for people like the creeper I knew to try to play it off when he got caught.

    TL;DR: Geek chick from geek school knows awkward; geek chick knows creepy. Awkward geek guy friends were not creepy; the guy who tried to play off his boundary-crossing as “awkward geek mistakes” was creepy.

  449. @Gulliver

    But it turns out, his short and simple definition of a lady or a gentleman is, someone who always tries to make sure the people around him or her are as comfortable as possible.

    I’m actually going to take issue with this definition. To me, that’s part of the mindset that keeps women (and probably many men) from calling out bad behavior — we don’t want to make people uncomfortable. I prefer the Oscar Wilde definition, “A gentleman is one who never inflicts pain unintentionally.” There are times when the gentlemanly (or ladylike) thing to do is to make another person as uncomfortable as possible, and there are a number of ways to do so that are considered good manners when used appropriately.

    (These include: the silent icy stare, the sharp “Excuse me?”, the hard-edged “I beg your pardon?”, the indignant “How dare you!”, and, in the most extreme cases, pointedly turning your back on the offender. Oddly enough, old-fashioned as these are, they can be pretty effective.)

  450. @OtherBecky: My favourite definition of a gentleman is one who treats a duchess like a scullery maid, and vice versa, because both are equally worthy of consideration and respect. Sounds about right to me.

  451. These include: the silent icy stare, the sharp “Excuse me?”, the hard-edged “I beg your pardon?”, the indignant “How dare you!”, and, in the most extreme cases, pointedly turning your back on the offender. Oddly enough, old-fashioned as these are, they can be pretty effective.

    This.

    Or, in more modern vein: “You did NOT just say that!” “What are you, 5?” and a handy, all-purpose “You’re not the boss of me.” Preferably taught from an extremely young age, regardless of gender.

    One of the more successful public protests I was ever at consisted solely of standing up and silently turning our backs to a political speaker. It got national coverage on all the news broadcasts, and enlivened the debate the speech was intended to stifle.

  452. @Stevie, indeed, I agree. And I thank and salute you too, Mr. Scalzi.

    @Other Bill, yes, what you said, too. Especially “So that maybe we can move beyond BUT I DON’T KNOW HOW TO TALK TO LADIES as a response.” Very true. And as to “I sincerely hope that I did not give the impression that I was commenting on what I think the importance of that should be in your life,” no worries, you were speaking generally about vignettes anyway, not exactly about mine in particular, and I seem to have this continued gut reaction to compare mine with others and make qualifiers. But you were fine.

    Actually, that’s a good point — I’ve seen a couple stories about abuse or harassment where the woman involved said she hadn’t thought of it in years or hadn’t labeled it as abuse or whatever because it “didn’t affect her.” My first impulse is to doubt that (especially with more extreme, ongoing cases), but I certainly don’t want to tell other women how they’re “supposed” to feel about things that have happened to them. Those conversations come later, maybe with a small group of trusted people, and the reason I think they should happen at all isn’t to tell them what to feel, but because I have two friends who were abused as kids, and I heard from friend A that when she was going to therapy friend B basically said, “That’s great for you, but it didn’t affect me.” Which… seemed a little hard to believe, since friend B was a cutter, for starters. Maybe because of other things, but… Anywho.

    @Other Becky, I’m afraid I’m going to take issue with the Oscar Wilde definition, too. It has very good points in its favor, as you explained, the only trouble is that it would include as “gentlemen” some creeps and abusers who very intentionally inflict pain. I probably don’t need to give an example of this, but looking back, I’m pretty sure the “customer” who was so crude to me at the bookstore knew *exactly* what he was doing. He and his friends making a young pretty rich (in comparison to them, with my part-time retail job) white girl uncomfortable? That’d make them feel nice and powerful, something they wouldn’t necessarily feel very often. Without doing stuff like that. So I like the definition Cranapia mentions better. Though one could go too far in treating a duchess like a scullery maid. In “My Fair Lady” terms, I prefer the character who treats a flower girl like a duchess to the character who treats a duchess like a flower girl.

  453. @ Marcy

    And hey, knowing it in my head or not… yeah, I‘ve had some of that experience with depression, too. Sometimes I had very tangible external reasons for it, sometimes not. Sometimes I had the external reasons, but they were a little trickier to place. You‘re right, none of that invalidates the depression. I‘ve also experienced that with childhood family issues (“But you know, it‘s not like my parents ever beat me…“) and even sometimes with my mom‘s dementia.

    Just in case I gave any indication to the contrary, depression can stem from a wide variety of causes, psychological and neurochemical. Mine was very much a side-effect of the medication I was trying to cope with my HFA. For others its psychological and for some it can be both (think a veteran suffering from head injuries and PTSD). In any event, no one’s suffering diminishes that of anyone else.

    Of course, with these problems, it‘s also hard to tell with statistics, because how much harassment is actually reported? I certainly didn‘t report the incident I talked about here.

    This probably goes without saying, but just because a particular behavior isn’t legally actionable doesn’t mean we, in our communities, don’t have a moral responsibility to put the kibosh on it when it crops up. If the only litmus test of socially acceptable behavior in this world was legal responsibility, we’d live in a very different world. Fortunately, we have more leeway about limiting what we allow to go on in our communities, because being part of a community is a privilege, not a right. Which is not to say that plenty of the harassment discussed in this thread is not also legally actionable. Just that but it’s not against the law is a pretty poor excuse on its own.

    We‘re lessened when people keep silent because they don‘t have a safe place to share these stories.

    Shout out to our host :)

    @ Other Becky

    I’m actually going to take issue with this definition. To me, that’s part of the mindset that keeps women (and probably many men) from calling out bad behavior — we don’t want to make people uncomfortable.

    I agree that if applied without consideration for context, the results are bad. In the film, Adam Webber definitely doesn’t hesitate to make a creep+cronies uncomfortable. I only offered it as an example of the fact that, if you’re being considerate of the people around you, you’re a lot less likely to creep them out. Empathy is great anti-creeping prophylactic.

    Oscar Wilde is ever quotable, albeit not as quotable as Craig, in this case :)

  454. @Gulliver:
    ::stops slouching and stands to my full 5’8, looks you squarely in the clavicle::

    Other Bill, are we going to have to get Gulliver a “This is not my face” t-shirt?

    (apologies if the joke isn’t as funny as it seems to me at 2am)

  455. @ Kat Goodwin: Attributing creepiness to social difficulties misses the point entirely. If you engage in behavior that is explicitly threatening to other people, it’s your responsibility to avoid those situations. Period — particularly when such behavior can be un-learned. Fandom has a very high tolerance for people on the spectrum; the fact that certain people have been identified as creeps suggests that their behavior exceeds that range of tolerance.

    A person with severe uncontrolled epilepsy and partial blindness should not be driving. Period. Not with another person beside them ready to take over if they have a seizure. Not at certain times of the day. Not on certain roads or under certain conditions. If they put other people in danger by driving, they should not be driving. One can argue that they deserve paratransit rights — and they do — but that doesn’t change the fact that they can’t take rambling road trips across the country or live alone in the middle of nowhere if they need to go into town to get groceries. And that sucks. But the alternative — for everyone else — is worse.

    The same goes for disability-induced creepiness. This isn’t a case where we can make reasonable accommodations. This is a case where one party is going to get hurt — and that should not be the party who is unaware of the potential problems. If you know you have a serious risk of blacking out on the highway, don’t get on the highway. And if you know you have a serious risk of creeping people out — to the point where you’ve been kicked out of groups which have a *high* tolerance for such behaviors — then don’t get into those situations. It’s not anyone else’s responsibility to enable you to get into those situations. Pretending that it *is* only makes it more difficult to take action when (inevitably) someone else is put into danger.

  456. Other Bill, I have a cravat from an old costume party. Perhaps it’s time to get the old Singer out of the closet…

  457. “Clearly that won’t cover personal space issues if one comes from a touchy-feely family, but it might make people stop and think, maybe?”

    Important disclosure. I have friends in sicily and there were brother sister which were so comfortable physically with each other it was weird even for Italians. And she was that way with me too and other guys too and then was surprised that guys kept making moves on her. Only reason I didnt was that she was the daughter of a friend of my father. Compared to her being casual a woman from northern Italy or even England greenlighting me is like somebody sending a formal response in triplicate.

  458. This has been a fascinating read. I was drawn over by the Captain Awkward post.

    I wanted to add a note to all who say that harassees (or creepees if you will) should just stand up for themselves/not put up with it.

    I don’t want to.

    I’m an auditor (for public corporations, I don’t care about your taxes). I give people who have crossed lines verbal/written/body language smackdowns for line-crossing behavior literally all day long. Granted, their line-crossing behavior is decidedly non-sexual (usually). But the skill transfers nicely into my personal life and I have no problem with cooling a room by ten degrees when somebody is inappropriate in my vicinity (towards myself or friends or a random stranger).

    That being said I. Don’t. Want. To. So I tend to not recreate in spaces where I’m likely to be harassed. It still happens with mind boggling frequency, but that’s neither here nor there. Among the reasons I stopped attending male-dominated social events (such as cons, but also other non-geek spaces occupied almost exclusively by men) in my early twenties is because I just don’t have the energy any more. I think geeky events (also sporty events, another place I don’t feel welcome) are awesome, I’d love to go. But, the level of obnoxious behavior necessitated constant vigilance on my part, so I opted out.

    To be clear, I’m a neuro-typical sociable woman. I’m an extrovert who adores meeting new people. It’s not that I’m shy/awkward, it’s that I’m fucking tired and I’d rather not deal with it.

  459. Mr. Scalzi, I must object to your definition of creeper: “Let’s say that for this particular conversation, a “creeper” is someone whose behavior towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe.”

    If a racist is stuck in line next to a large black man, the racist may indeed feel uncomfortable and possibly unsafe…but that doesn’t make the black man a creeper. Sure you say, “whose behavior”, but that’s completely subjective. It allows plenty of room for the behavior being, “existing near me”, or “he spoke to me”.

    My Dad had a speech impediment due to a car crash when he was 16. In middle-age, he got banned from a local mall because when he said, “Hi, how are you?” to a woman in-passing, she decided he’d made an offensive comment (with his wife walking right there alongside him).

    So please reconsider your definition. “Creeper” needs to require an overt act, at the very least, and I think it shouldn’t apply to anyone who leaves when asked and doesn’t return.

  460. Keith Burton:

    “‘Creeper’ needs to require an overt act”

    In which case someone can come in and say that’s not sufficiently drilled down, since “he spoke to me” is an overt act, isn’t it?

    We can play the drill-down definition game for a long time and there will be folks who will never be sufficiently pleased with the definition.

    So, no, I think the definition works perfectly well for the large majority of people. The large majority of people, I think understand that in this context “behavior” is a thing you do intentionally, and that something like “existing” is not considered a behavior.

  461. Most of these accusations of “creeper” come from people who spend too much time on the internet and don’t have the capability of dealing with unusual social interactions in a normal manner.

  462. Funny, most people who make assertions based on nothing other than what they’ve just pulled out of their own ass just to slag people they don’t know seem to do it on the Internet as well.

  463. As a parent with an adult autistic, I know many adults with low social skills. Many accept the rules once they have been informed in a concrete manner through visual or written instruction on social rules. You have to identify the need in that person, and you are not always the person who should be instructing someone, but videos, social stories, even written lists help in these cases. My son has a list for his behavior, but it is external, not that internalized set of skills. I see a lot of behavior at conventions that seem more than socially awkward. Some people seem to skip out on the rules, let it all hang out at a convention, but certainly some pass into creepyhood. Video about the socail rules, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjlSA-u8KUI&feature=related

  464. LMM: “Attributing creepiness to social difficulties misses the point entirely.”

    Which is why it’s something that I never said. In fact, I said the opposite. I think you are completely misreading my posts and clearly haven’t been reading most of this thread.

    That being said, when people come to us and say I fear my socially awkward behavior will be mistaken for creepiness (not is creepiness,) and then someone will beat me up, telling that person that he shouldn’t go to cons then is not a really sufficient response. It may be that the person will have to not go to cons because he can’t control the problematic behavior, which I also said and as we discussed at length earlier. But it may also be that the person is having an exaggerated belief that social difficulties will be seen as sexual harassment behavior and could use some outside perspective. It is not the responsibility of conventions or attendees to help the person with social difficulties. But that doesn’t mean that the convention can’t provide help if the person asks for it, such as a volunteer escort, or that the person cannot get help from elsewhere such as therapy or a friend coming with, just as an epileptic can have a friend drive him on the highway. And physical threats are just as problematic as sexual harassment for the well-being of attendees. If someone cannot help himself from physically threatening other attendees, for whatever reason, maybe that person also cannot go to cons or can, but only in getting help to change the behavior so that the con is a safe space. Everyone is responsible for their own behavior. A person getting help with controlling and eliminating his own threatening behavior is part of that responsibility. A socially awkward person has a challenge that needs to be dealt with. That does not mean that a socially awkward person always needs to stay in a box. Socially awkward behavior is not the same thing as sexual harassment.

  465. “Acknowledge that other people do not exist just for your amusement/interest/desire/use.” (from OP)

    When a woman informs you that she is gay after you (a general “you” referring to a heterosexual male) express your romantic interest, kindly refrain from:

    1.) Expressing disbelief that a woman you find attractive can be gay.
    2.) Accusing her (however playfully) of lying.
    3.) Acting cheated, as if she chose to be born gay for the sole purpose of disappointing your amorous intentions.
    4.) Continuing to try to pursue her romantically, as if you can “fix” or “overcome” her gayness with enough persistence.

    All of the above deny the woman her agency, and are definite creeper signals because they are centered on how *you* feel, what *you* want, and what *you* feel entitled to — rather than her feelings and thoughts as an equal human being.

    What would be truly appreciated if you could just say, “OK, I understand. Thanks for telling me.” Because that woman is trusting you not to use your privilege as a straight man to belittle her or her sexuality*, and would probably just like to “connect” to you as a fellow geeky con-goer, and discuss the latest Hobbit movie / X book / Curiosity pictures. Actually, it’s really important for all people on the LGBTQ spectrum to be welcome in geek circles, because the world can be pretty hostile to us, and for many, our geeky spaces are the only places we tend to feel safe most of the time.

    *I’ve had this happen enough times that I have realized that honesty is not always the best policy, and that it’s probably morally OK for me to lie if it spares me feeling vulnerable.

  466. Do *not* stand behind seated women and gesture so that you end up pointing over, or even leaning over them. This is nothing short of threatening.

  467. Ontogenesis wrote:

    When a woman informs you that she is gay after you (a general “you” referring to a heterosexual male) express your romantic interest…

    Assuming you’re not a replicant, it might just be a useful exercise in non-hetero-privileged empathy to think about what kind of behavior would compel someone to out themselves to a total stranger. You know, considering many GLBT people tend to keep themselves on the downlow in such circumstances as a basic safety strategy.

  468. Thanks for this, Scalzi and (most of the) commenters! Y’all are awesome as usual.

  469. I understand a lot of what’s being said here, but there are a couple of points I wanted to make.

    Firstly, a lot has been made of the suggestion that, if someone finds you creepy, then it’s entirely your fault, even if their assessment of you is unfair. I find that hard to accept. I always strive to treat people fairly and cut them a little slack if I can see they’re not being deliberately horrible, and I just can’t put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn’t care whether they’re treating you fairly. I think it’s a lazy and immoral approach to the treatment of others that holds society back.

    If you accept the argument that fairness is irrelevant, consider the following example: a black guy walks onto a bus and sits next to a white woman. She has the window seat and he has the aisle seat. This white woman is racist and feels uncomfortable about having to sit next to the black guy, but because he is in the aisle seat she doesn’t have the option of getting up to walk away. Clearly, this woman is feeling “creeped” through no fault of the guy – would you still say the onus is on him to move, or on her to stop being such a bigot? I suppose the counter argument is going to be “well he can’t help being black, whereas most creepers have the power to change the behaviour that creeps people out” – but then, you said that fairness is irrelevant, so it’s a moot point, and by that logic the black guy could theoretically (though please note I am in no way advocating it) have sat somewhere else where there was less risk of this, e.g. by sitting alone.

    The second point is particularly relevant to dealing with girls. If I were as considerate about people’s feelings as I’ve been asked to be here, I would never have relationships. If you want a girl to see you as more than their gay best friend then sometimes you have to take the initiative and be a bit spontaneous – which, of course, incurs the risk of making them uncomfortable if you’ve misread the signals. For example, if you ask girls for permission before you kiss them then sure, you mitigate the risk of discomfort, but girls find it extremely unsexy. I think girls should bear that in mind before they write a guy off as a “creep” just because he got the wrong idea.

    Don’t get me wrong – I am NOT saying that “creepers” should just carry on as they are and make no attempt to change their behaviour; a lot of it comes down to basic consideration for others which is perfectly reasonable, and it is possible to learn to read unspoken social cues and body language. But I don’t agree that fairness on the “creeper” is irrelevant in the way it’s been suggested here, and I think more effort should be made at conciliation rather than just lambasting these guys.

  470. @ Timmy

    It’s been said many times here already, but you seem sincere in your misconception of the problem, so please allow me to correct a key point you have overlooked. I’m not being snarky; this is a long thread and I wouldn’t expect every poster to necessarily read it in its entirety.

    Creeping is not how you look, how you talk, how you walk, how you present, or even how you behave in general. Creeping is behavior directed at someone, woman or man, who is discomfited, and especially when, upon realizing their discomfort, the creeper persists in behaving toward that person in that manner. This is what Scalzi’s post addresses, and this is what we are discussing. Public transit co-passengers and bigots need not apply.

    I’ll be even more emphatic. Individuals have a just right to look, talk, walk and exist in whatever condition they so choose, without having a single solitary obligation to vacate public spaces, and any private spaces where they are invited by the proprietors. What no individual has a just claim on is interaction with any other human being, even if that other human being has no reason save bigotry, even if that other human being has no reason whatsoever – all completely regardless of both human beings’ respective genders. No one is obligated to provide a reason to be left alone by whomever they so choose.

    Someone who refuses to interact with another because of bigotry is an asshole, but they are assholes with no obligation to interact with anyone they do not choose to. For example, if the KKK decides to hold a private meeting excluding minorities, that should be their right. If the KKK decides to hold a (properly permitted) march, even that should be their right. If the KKK decides to try to speak to someone who has told them to get lost, the harassing KKK members should be arrested and charged with harassment. If the KKK decides to touch someone without their permission, they assaulting KKK members should be arrested and tried with assault, provided they are still alive because the individual(s) under assault have not exercised their just right of self-defense and deprived the assaulting KKK members of their lives.

    You hypothetical black bus passenger is fine, and your hypothetical white bigot can simply deal.

  471. Timmy

    I have to point out that you are contradicting yourself when you say:

    “sometimes you have to take the initiative and be a bit spontaneous”

    If you have decided to take the initiative than by definition you are not being spontaneous…

  472. Waxley says:

    […] I was just expressing some general frustration in that I think a lot of the guys who are the problem are just going to continue their self-justifications, and we need to accept that, and also accept that there are always going to be a few bad apples who need to be dealt with more forcefully. [Emphasis added]

    No. I sympathize that you are feeling frustrated, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that we “need to accept” that “a lot of the guys who are the problem are just going to continue their self-justifications”. Dealing with the predators you describe as “a few bad apples who need to be dealt with more forcefully” is not disconnected from how we deal with the behavior of those who are part of the problem but not purposefully, maliciously predatory. I reject accepting the latter type’s behavior. The online conversations we’ve been having these last few days on John’s blog, Captain Awkward’s blog, and elsewhere about creepers is all about changing the social norms that excuse the creepy behavior of people who are PART OF THE PROBLEM (pardon my resort to capslock, but I feel that otherwise your eyes will skip over this very, very crucial point) but not purposefully *evil* so that they will a.) stop violating other people’s boundaries and creeping them out, and b.) stop providing cover for those aforementioned ‘bad apples’.

    We as a society do not need to ‘accept’ that people who are part of the problem will continue to be part of the problem. We need to say, repeatedly, on- and offline, to people acting creepy that no, we do not accept that behavior. That behavior is not acceptable. Your self-justifications do not trump the safety and well-being of others. If you are not malicious and purposefully predatory, prove it: go get educated. Read this blog post. Read the other blog posts recommended in the comment threads. Practice. Use your words, and check in on how you are doing with people who are already invested in your success (e.g. members of your family, long-term friends, people you are paying to help you), aka the people who actually do owe you an education.

    Sorry, Waxley: I don’t accept the status quo. It’s okay to be frustrated; we all get frustrated. Changing social norms takes time. It’s uncomfortable and hard and no one is safe from having to examine their own behavior to see if they need to do better. No one. Not you, not me. Here’s a place to start: acceptance of behavior can be read as tacit approval, and it’s important to be unambiguous about not approving as much as one’s personal spoons allow if we really want to change the way things are now.

  473. Gulliver: Creeping is behavior directed at someone, woman or man, who is discomfited, and especially when, upon realizing their discomfort, the creeper persists in behaving toward that person in that manner.

    That definition is actually significantly better than the first cut at defining “creeper”, which said a “creeper” is someone whose behavior towards someone else makes that other person uncomfortable at least and may possibly make them feel unsafe.

    The definition in the original post points to “behavior” rather than, say, skin color, but gives no test that is action-based that sorts one behavior into “creeper” and another behavior into “non-creeper, misunderstanding, etc”. The only determiner in the original definition is that the person feels uncomfortable or unsafe.

    Bob is near Alice and Alice feels uncomfortable, is Bob a creeper? We have no idea. There’s actually not enough information to know. We could try to enumerate a list of “do this, don’t do this” behaviors that determine creeper/noncreeper. But rather than focus on the specific behavior and rather than focus on how Alice feels, your modification to the definition actually solves several problems at once.

    Bob is near Alice and Alice feels uncomfortable. Bob realizes Alice is uncomfortable and continues doing whatever he’s doing. Is Bob a creeper? We can say very much likely “yes” without knowing what Bob is doing and without knowing anything about Alice. If Bob alters his behavior to try and make Alice feel comfortable, then we can say very much likely that “no”, Bob is not creeping on Alice, that it was likely a misunderstanding.

    The story tessuraea told about what happened at a drag show / dance event wasn’t creeping. tessuraea was horsing around at a dance, which is generally the expected behavior at a dance, and another woman became uncomfortable. It wasn’t creeping, it was a misunderstanding. And as soon as tessuraea saw the woman was uncomfortable, she changed her behavior so the woman might not feel uncomfortable.

    The thing about making the definition hinge only on Alice feeling uncomfortable is that it has no way to sort out “creepy” situations from “misunderstanding” situations. And of course, everyone will say they don’t mean to include misunderstandings in the thing they’re trying to stop. But the definition that says “creepy is behavior that makes someone feel uncomfortable” does not actually have any way to distinguish creepy from misunderstandings.

    Your definition is actually a major, major improvement because it allows for simple misunderstandings and gives a fairly straightforward way to separate misunderstandings from creepy behavior: If Bob knows Alice is uncomfortable, and doesn’t alter his behavior to try and make Alice comfortable, he’s probably a creep. If Bob DOES alter what he’s doing, it was probably some kind of misunderstanding.

    I like your definition a LOT and will probably steal it in the future.

  474. @Gulliver: Yeah, I didn’t have a problem with anything you said about depression, but thanks for making that extra clear. I was on a forum once where someone pretty much said, “No, it’s not depression unless you can see no earthly reason for why you’re feeling so bad.” It was a thread about derailing people who are telling you something sad, too… That doesn’t seem any more helpful than saying it’s only depression if you have an external reason. I also had a doctor tell me once that depression can only be caused by problems with serotonin. Right. Like serotonin isn’t one of many kinds of neurotransmitters that we still know very little about. Like serotonin can’t be affected by anything else (besides drugs). Or maybe like that doctor had been listening a little too carefully to companies selling SSRIs…

    “If the only litmus test of socially acceptable behavior in this world was legal responsibility, we’d live in a very different world.” Amen. And if more people would go past that minimum, working retail could be a lot more pleasant! :) One of my personal favorites was the time a customer cussed out my coworker for being upset that someone had stolen my lunch from our breakroom. Presumably he was the same fellow who stole it, but when he first walked up to buy his books he made pleasant chitchat. Then he moved to telling us it was our fault it was stolen because we hadn’t locked the door. From there he escalated to the cussing. My coworker made a very conscious decision to be quiet and apologetic until he left instead of arguing with him, while I sat and alternated between staring and averting my eyes, trying to keep my jaw off the floor. It was the extra special not-illegal icing on the minor theft. That and finding the tupperware later, hidden in the tank of one of the toilets in the men’s bathroom. With most of the rice uneaten — so much for his, “but maybe they were hungry!” :rolls eyes:

  475. @Timmy: “For example, if you ask girls for permission before you kiss them then sure, you mitigate the risk of discomfort, but girls find it extremely unsexy.”

    Oh, for the love of…

    I didn’t have a lot of dating experience before meeting my now-husband, so maybe I’m not the best judge of this, but let me go out on a limb and say: kissing your girlfriend? Not harassment. Kissing a stranger? Assault. Okay, for the grayer areas where you’ve spent some time together, you think you like each other, maybe have gone on some dates but don’t have any official relationship yet; sure, it’ll depend on the exact circumstances, the context and the body language. If you really suck at reading those cues, maybe you should ask permission. Here’s where probably not every woman agrees with me (romantic comedies certainly don’t, but you shouldn’t follow their advice for a number of reasons, including the aforementioned prevalent “Stalk your way to true love!” attitude), but I think that can be pretty sexy. I mean, it strongly implies a genuine concern for her feelings! You know, as a *person.* That can be pretty freakin’ sexy.

    This may be a good time to break out some of my favorite quotes on these topics from the current general discussion on teh interwebs. (Not just directed at you, Timmy, I’m aware these are responses to things you weren’t quite saying. This is at some people on this thread in general.) From Genevieve Valentine, in a Readercon update:

    “Some people, in comments throughout this fine internet, have expressed a deep and touching concern that this has all happened because I have never experienced or encountered any embarrassing social miscues, accidental physical contact, flirting, socially-awkward people, or people on the autism spectrum, and thus I am somehow mistaken, and my harasser, a serial predator, is actually a flirting, socially-awkward, terminally-self-unaware Aspie. (Assuming this last about him is, by the way, particularly offensive to those on the autism spectrum.)

    Those commenters are very kind to worry about me, but, having left the house on several occasions throughout my life, I have in fact encountered them all. Luckily, since harassment is none of these things, I am still able to distinguish harassment clearly, as that was what I experienced when Rene Walling chose to harass me. Thank you anyway.”

    And something Ann Leckie said over at http://ann-leckie.livejournal.com/181598.html :

    “But here’s the more extensive answer. If you really think that ‘speaking to women’ is indistinguishable from harassment, there’s a problem and it’s not with the rules. If you really think anti-harassment rules bar flirting, you’ve got an idea of what constitutes flirting that really needs some re-evaluation. I mean, if someone said, ‘Hey, we should outlaw rape,’ and the guy standing next to you said, ‘But that’s the same thing as saying people can’t have sex!’ you wouldn’t say, Wow, good point!. You’d look at him sideways. Or, sweet unconquered sun, I hope you would.

    If you speak to women the way you’d speak to someone you respect, someone whose boundaries you respect, you generally won’t have any problems with women accusing you of harassment. End of story.

    When you worry out loud that anti-harassment policies might outlaw flirting, you as much as sharpie a sign on your forehead saying ‘I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU WANT AS LONG AS I GET WHAT I’M AFTER.'”

    Whole post’s worth reading, but that was my favorite.

  476. @J.J. Hunter & @Waxley: Have to agree with J.J. Hunter about the “few bad apples” thing. It’s not just the comments on Captain Awkward, but the original post itself is very explicitly about social groups excusing their “buddy’s” bad behavior. Because he has the best table for gaming, which is so much more important. And you wouldn’t want to hurt his feelings. Then in the comments and in the very next post, it moves on to stories of social groups tolerating known rapists. The problem is about more than a “few bad apples.” These groups weren’t full of rapists, each just had the one. But the people surrounding that one? Definitely a part of the problem.

  477. Timmy:

    “For example, if you ask girls for permission before you kiss them then sure, you mitigate the risk of discomfort, but girls find it extremely unsexy”

    Maybe the way you do it. I, on the other hand, distinctly remember at least one occasion when “Dear holy god, I really want to kiss you right about now,” worked like a charm. Wow, did it.

    Which is to say that it’s in the delivery, coupled with the awareness of other signals and other data. It also depends on the girl (or guy, if you go that direction). Once again: Paying attention matters.

  478. Oh, and Timmy, “If you want a girl to see you as more than their gay best friend…”? Maybe you could start by asking her out? Just a thought. If she’s in danger of thinking of you as a “gay best friend,” asking her out would certainly not be out of line. It might be slightly uncomfortable, but not in the manner or degree anyone here has been intending to define as harassment. (Maybe there’s been misunderstanding about that, and Gulliver cleared it up. If so, sorry.) Providing you can take no for an answer.

  479. I missed this earlier: if you ask girls for permission before you kiss them then sure, you mitigate the risk of discomfort, but girls find it extremely unsexy

    Speaking from experience, this approach worked extremely well for me back when I was dating. I didn’t use this approach every time (sometimes it was obvious they were interested and sometimes it was obvious they weren’t interested), but every time I used it, things went very well. Mileage may vary, of course.

    Maybe, ya know, they just weren’t interested?

    If they were interested, but at the end of a great date you asked “May I kiss you?” and caused them to get uninterested, would you really have wanted any kind of relationship with this person?

  480. Timmy: “Firstly, a lot has been made of the suggestion that, if someone finds you creepy, then it’s entirely your fault, even if their assessment of you is unfair. I find that hard to accept.”

    First off, that’s not what people have been saying, as has already been explained to you. And second, that you find it hard to accept others’ feelings over your own is not a matter of fairness. It’s a matter of being domineering. Making the analogy that men or women who are being harassed are the same as white bigots and should just suck up being harassed is part of a mindset that says those who are most forceful are always right, which again has nothing to do with fairness. If I’m being harassed by someone who is therefore clearly not taking my feelings into account, I’m not taking his or her feelings into account, nor do I have a responsibility to do so.

    “If I were as considerate about people’s feelings as I’ve been asked to be here, I would never have relationships.” — Ah, you’re in the Cramping My Style contingent, the ones who want to hit on women (or men) and not have those women be allowed to object. This is again domineering — it’s seeing women as targets, as objects, rather than as individual people. Which, as I noted earlier, means you’re a lousy lover, kiddo. If you want to go up to strange women and kiss them on the grounds that one of them may like it so the rest can go hang, expect to be thrown out of more than a few places for that behavior. What’s interesting is that you are objecting here to being considerate about other people’s feelings, mainly “girls,” right after you lambasted others for not being considerate about others’ feelings in the interest of “fairness.” So you seem a mite confused. I’m guessing that you’re young. But either way, seriously, dude, it is not okay to sexually assault women on the grounds that they find it sexy. That way lies jail time.

  481. Timmy: If you want a girl to see you as more than their gay best friend then sometimes you have to take the initiative

    Wait. Wait. Wait. You’re kissing a friend/acquaintence who you aren’t dating? Dude.

    be a bit spontaneous – which, of course, incurs the risk of making them uncomfortable if you’ve misread the signals

    Let me present the choice from a different frame. You can either try kissing some woman you know but aren’t dating and take the chance of making her feel extremely uncomfortable. OR. You can risk making yourself feel uncomfortable by asking them on a date and accepting whatever answer they give you.

    Being direct and taking the answer you get is the generous thing to do. If you’re afraid of rejection and just throw yourself at her, you’re putting all the discomfort on her so you can avoid it yourself, and, that’s extremely un generous.

    Ask her out and accept graciously whatever answer you get.

  482. And if you want a “manly man” metaphor, initiating a potential new relationship is going to cause some discomfort for someone. You or them or both. Even if it works out and they say “yes” and you end up doing the “happily ever after” thing with them, there is taht initial moment of discomfort when someone has to initiate the relationship and risk rejection.

    You can think of that discomfort as a grenade that drops out of the air and lands in between you and the person you’re attracted to. And you taking all the risk and discomfort, you being direct when needed, you asking directly and accepting whateer answer they give you, is like you throwing yourself on that grenade to save that other person from any of that pain.

    Shlepping around, being completely indirect about everything, like kissing someone out of the blue hoping they kiss you back so you can avoid asking them out and avoid rejection, is basically throwing them on that grenade, so you don’t get hurt.

    Which approach do you think looks more attractive to her?

  483. @Kat Goodwin: “What’s interesting is that you are objecting here to being considerate about other people’s feelings, mainly ‘girls,’ right after you lambasted others for not being considerate about others’ feelings in the interest of ‘fairness.’ So you seem a mite confused.” I was just thinking the same thing. Thanks for saying it. Double standards? We has them! Timmy’s hardly the only one…

  484. Heh, nice metaphor, Greg. When I think of the time someone asked me out that was most uncomfortable to me, it was actually because HE was so very very embarrassed when I told him I’m married. And he’d obviously had to really work up his courage to ask. So, uncomfortable as it was, my discomfort was nothing on his, and I was very much NOT mad at him for asking.

  485. Guys, read the original post. Scalzi quite clearly says the following: “It may not seem fair that “creep” is their assessment of you, but: Surprise! It doesn’t matter, and if you try to argue with them (or anyone else) that you’re in fact not being a creep and the problem is with them not you, then you go from “creep” to “complete assbag.” Sometimes people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you. It’s just the way it is.” OK, maybe that’s not how you personally see the situation – but THAT IS WHAT THE ORIGINAL POST SAYS, and I disagree because I DO think fairness matters. If I think I’m not being treated fairly, I don’t see why I should have to put up with it. I make the effort to treat others fairly and I expect them to respond in kind.

    You guys are seriously attacking a straw man here, because if you go back and read my post properly you will notice that I quite clearly accepted the notion that a guy should make the effort to read social cues. To say that I think it’s OK to sexually assault women, or that I don’t think women should be allowed to object to advances, is a disgusting distortion of my words. It’s one think to reject an advance, but quite another to treat the guy like a leper just for asking. I do have respect for women, having been raised by an incredibly strong single mother with two sisters, so why don’t you leave the personal attacks out of it and focus on addressing my point?

    I don’t think you should just go up to random women and sexually assault them as a stab in the dark just to be “exciting” and “spontaneous”. I’m saying that you don’t usually know for sure whether someone is attracted to you or not, and if you get a good idea that they are from your interpretation of their body language and the rapport you’ve built up then sometimes you have to run the risk of going for it because relying on explicit verbal permission for absolutely everything is a mug’s game. I have female friends who tell me the exact same thing. I’m talking about the kind of situation when you’re in a club and some girl is dancing/grinding with you and you sense, based on your interpretation of the available social cues, that it’s the right moment to go for it; this was how I met most of my girlfriends in my teens, and yes I occasionally got it wrong, but I recognised my mistake and backed off if that was the case, and if I never took that risk then I would probably be a virgin now. Believe it or not, I have actually experienced this situation the other way round and had girls try to kiss me when I wasn’t interested, but I just cleared things up, put it down to a misunderstanding and moved on without thinking badly of them.

    I agree that guys should make the effort to read social cues and understand from body language, facial expression, lack of eye contact etc that a woman is not interested. Once you can tell that a woman is not interested, I absolutely agree that it is wrong to press the point. However, if you recognise that innocent mistakes can be made, why not make life easier for everyone – yourself included – and try a bit of old fashioned clear communication?

  486. Timmy:

    “I disagree because I DO think fairness matters.”

    So what? No one else is obliged to agree with your belief, and if in the process of trying to make the world treat you fairly you come across as even more of a creepy assbag than you already have been, then you’re in a far worse situation than you already were.

    Saying that you think “fairness matters” means that you expect everyone else to have the same definition of “fair” that you do and that they are obliged to follow that definition. Well, the definition of “fair” is highly subjective, and even if someone else’s definition of “fair” matches yours, they still are not obliged to be fair to you. Your expectation or demand that they do or should is not their problem.

    No one has to be “fair” to you, Timmy. Disagree all you like, but you’re wrong.

  487. Ok mate, so if I came up to you on the street, called you a prick, shoulder checked you as I walked past, then laughed to all my mates about it, how would you react?

  488. Maybe the way you do it. I, on the other hand, distinctly remember at least one occasion when “Dear holy god, I really want to kiss you right about now,” worked like a charm. Wow, did it.

    I think I blushed a little.

  489. Timmy:

    How does your attempt to change the subject by offering an example that has nothing to do with what’s currently being discussed have any bearing on whether anyone is obliged to agree on your definition of fairness?

  490. I’m not changing the subject. You don’t think people have an obligation to treat each other fairly, so I want to know how you would handle this situation.

  491. Timmy:

    Of course you are changing the subject, by offering up an example that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. This is called “shifting the goalposts,” and it’s not going to work. If you can’t make your argument based on the current discussion, that’s fine, but you ought to admit it. Likewise, you should recognize that others are not obliged to have a discussion based on where you think it should go.

  492. At the end of the day, life is not always fair and there’s not a lot you can do about it. The end doesn’t always justify the means and picking a fight over every perceived injustice is clearly not right. But you’re saying that fairness just doesn’t matter, and I just can’t get my head around that lack of consideration for others.

  493. This is not shifting the goalposts. It’s called drawing an analogy. You know this, so stop avoiding the question. How would you react if I treated you the way I described above?

  494. Original post: “It may not seem fair that “creep” is their assessment of you, but: Surprise! It doesn’t matter

    Timmy: I disagree because I DO think fairness matters. If I think I’m not being treated fairly, I don’t see why I should have to put up with it.

    You don’t have to put up with it. But you can’t make someone feel comfortable/safe around you if that’s not how they feel. They feel the way they feel. You feel the way you feel. That’s all the “fairness” you can expect in this universe.

    Timmy: I’m saying that you don’t usually know for sure whether someone is attracted to you or not, and if you get a good idea that they are from your interpretation of their body language and the rapport you’ve built up then sometimes you have to run the risk of going for it because relying on explicit verbal permission for absolutely everything is a mug’s game.

    Well, first of all, if you’re on a date or in some social context where kissing the other person would be in the “norm”, then, hey, that’s one thing. If you’re in a different context, then that’s a different problem altogether. YOu haven’t been exactly clear what context you’re talking about.

    Second of all, you’re not exactly clear on what actions you are doing when you say you are “going for it”, so that leaves it up to other people to try and fill in the blanks. And, hey, people have different blanks than you. So, maybe more specificity might help.

    Third of all, nobody said you need “explicit verbal permission for absolutely everything”. It’s kind of odd for you to complain about people strawmanning you and then have you strawman people into saying something no one ever said.

    Fourth of all, Scalzi and I have both told you it is NOT a mug’s game, at least in the limited contexts that we shared with you. So, probably would help if you were slightly less inaccurate with your absolute statements.

    if you recognise that innocent mistakes can be made, why not make life easier for everyone – yourself included – and try a bit of old fashioned clear communication?

    I was saying you should do exactly that. So, I’m not sure where the disagreement is. What I got from your post, however, was that YOU weren’t engaging in old fashioned clear communication, (cause explicit permission is a mugs game according to you), but you want women to do so. Which leaves some questions that maybe you could clear up.

    To say that I think it’s OK to sexually assault women, or that I don’t think women should be allowed to object to advances, is a disgusting distortion of my words.

    Well, I didn’t take your words to be an endorsement of sexual assault. But Kat did. And if I cross my eyes just a little bit, I’m not entirely sure what you are and are not endorsing. So, there you go. I don’t know what contexts you’re talking about. I don’t know what exactly you mean by “go for it”. Asking for permission is not a mugs game, saying it is kind of makes me wonder where you’re coming from.

  495. Timmy:

    “I just can’t get my head around that lack of consideration for others.”

    Again, so what? This is your problem, not anyone else’s, and you would be wise to recognize that.

    Meanwhile, you’re attempting to suggest that other people not signing on to your definition of “fairness” constitutes “lack of consideration” on their part, which is an assertion not in evidence.

    “Fairness,” incidentally, being a different thing from “not actually assaulting and battering people,” which is what your example offered, and would be actionable by law.

    “This is not shifting the goalposts. It’s called drawing an analogy. You know this”

    Actually, I don’t. There really is no reasonable analogy between what was being discussed and your question to me, and your suggestion that there is implies that you’re not paying close attention to the discussion that we’re having here. Independently, the “you know this” sort of pushy pushy rhetorical suggestion nonsense doesn’t work, so don’t try it.

    If you can’t make your argument in the discussion at hand, and then attempt to recover by offering a different scenario that’s more congenial to your argument, that’s pretty much a textbook example of shifting the goalposts, incidentally.

  496. Timmy: if I came up to you on the street, called you a prick, shoulder checked you as I walked past, then laughed to all my mates about it, how would you react?

    I see no connection between someone hitting you and a woman feeling uncomfortable or unsafe around you.

    The woman might feel unsafe because of some misunderstanding between you and her, but there’s little room for a misunderstanding if someone calls you a prick, shoulder checks you, and laughs about it.

    If you want to say that they’re the same thing because its not FAIR that the woman feel unsafe around you, the way it isn’t FAIR for someone to call you a prick, shoulder check you, and laugh, then, man oh man, are you missing the point.

  497. I’ll deal with these posts in turn.

    Scalzi, it’s not just “my definition of fairness”. This isn’t some postmodern, airy-fairy, high school sociology class quandary. Treating people with disrespect without justification is wrong. You have standards and so do I; you assert yourself, and so do I. I can see you’re trying to find excuses to weasel out of answering my question, so let’s remove the shoulder check from my example (I thought I’d include it as an example of something relatively harmless but obviously disrespectful, but anyway) and say that I just called you a prick for no reason, then laughed to my mates about it. Is it OK for me to openly disrespect you like that? You know that you expect certain standards of decent, fair behaviour from people and if I disrespected you that way you wouldn’t just say “gee, well, okeley-dokeley, I can’t make him comply with my standards of fairness!”. This is just an excuse you could use to weasel out of responsibility for any immoral behaviour whatsoever.

    Greg, if you, Kat or anyone else wanted me to clarify what I meant because you thought I was being a bit vague, then by all means I will do so. However, Kat insinuating that I am advocating sexual assault just because you’re not sure what I mean is jumping the gun just a tad, don’t you think?

    I PREFER clear and frank communication, but this is not an ideal world and I recognise that many girls do not like this and prefer you to play their guessing game because they think it’s more fun. So in the interest of not being a hermit for the rest of my life I shrug my shoulders and say “OK, fine” and do my best to play by their rules. No, I don’t think anyone expressly said that explicit verbal permission is required for everything, but what I’m saying is that, if you insist on making people play that game, then you must accept that sometimes people will innocently get it wrong, so lambasting people for it is unreasonable. And even when I have asked girls out the old fashioned way, I find that I am much more successful if something like my club scenario has happened beforehand and I’ve thus had the opportunity to establish a bit of physical attraction prior to being lumped in the friend zone.

  498. @Timmy: “But you’re saying that fairness just doesn’t matter, and I just can’t get my head around that lack of consideration for others.” Um, Scalzi isn’t making a blanket statement that fairness never ever ever matters and anyone who tries to consider it should go to hell. As in the OP you quoted, he’s talking about a specific situation. “It may not seem fair that “creep” is their assessment of you, but: Surprise! It doesn’t matter, and if you try to argue with them (or anyone else) that you’re in fact not being a creep and the problem is with them not you, then you go from “creep” to “complete assbag.” Sometimes people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you. It’s just the way it is.” So sounds like, if you take what Scalzi just said, and put it in your scenario with the clubbing, instead of “…and yes I occasionally got it wrong, but I recognised my mistake and backed off if that was the case” the person in question is trying to argue with the girl or guy when he or she says to back off. “Hey! You were sending signals! I’m not being a creep! How could you ever get that idea!” instead of leaving. You don’t get to do that. Boo hoo.

  499. Timmy, let’s simplify this, since getting hung up on the word “fair” is distracting you from the point.

    If you’re trying to get to know someone and anything you do makes that person uncomfortable, it is *pointless and counterproductive* to continue to do it. It might be unfair for them to judge you for it, but you wouldn’t try to continue the interaction to make them see that they’re being unfair, would you? If you would, then this is the part you need to rethink, even if your initial attempt to interact was as harmless and innocent as possible.

    Go back up the thread and reread what tessuraea posted on August 9, 2012 at 9:37 pm. It’s an instructive case study on how to behave if the other person is made uncomfortable by one because they made incorrect assumptions about one’s intentions. There’s no discussion of whether it was fair for the woman to react to tessuraea that way or whether it was fair for tessuraea to “have to” do what she wisely chose to do. It was the sensible, pratical thing to do if tessuraea wanted to (1) make sure the other person wasn’t made uncomfortable and (2) leave open the possibility of getting to know the other woman later, which she in fact did (but would have accepted just fine if it had come out otherwise).

  500. But WHY is it different in this scenario? WHY do standards of fairness that apply in every other human interaction suddenly cease to apply in this one? THAT is what I want to know.

  501. No BW, no. I am NOT getting distracted from the point. I have already said, several times, that I do not disagree *entirely* with the comments being made here. I’m just saying that, as a matter of principle, there should be some give and take and meeting in the middle. I do make the effort to read social cues and I will not continue to press the point once I can see that a girl is not interested in me, but if I felt that she had jumped to an unfair conclusion about me based on a silly misunderstanding then I would take umbrage.

  502. The other thing about fairness in what Scalzi said is that it applies to their assessment, and other people’s assessment of you or me or anyone else isn’t subject to our approval. I think that was the point Scalzi was trying to make. A person can consider me an asshole when, in my judgment, I wasn’t doing anything assholish. Oh, well. That kind of thing almost certainly happens to every human being on earth. Somewhere, at some point, someone is going to think poorly of you when you don’t feel you deserve it. And they get to do that. Each of us gets to make our own judgments. I have undoubtedly misjudged people as well as been misjudged by people. We don’t get to stamp approval on each other’s thoughts.

    If you do something with good intentions and the other person misreads your attentions and treats you like dirt, then you get to judge the other person as a jerk. Scalzi is NOT saying that treating you like dirt is okay. He’s talking about the judgments people make. If Person B unfairly judges Person A as obnoxious and politely declines further interaction, that is perfectly acceptable. It’s when the Person A doesn’t accept Person B’s declining of interaction that the behavior becomes creeping.

  503. Timmy:

    “Treating people with disrespect without justification is wrong.”

    You appear to be under the impression that when people judge you a creep, they are doing so without justification. This is almost certainly false: their justification is their own assessment of you, based on their own criteria. If you come across as a creep to them, then they are entirely justified to go out of their way to avoid you. You may not agree with their criteria, but again: So what? It’s not up to you. You appear to be trying to claim there is some objective standard by which everyone should be judged. There’s not, and you don’t get a vote on other people’s standards.

    “I can see you’re trying to find excuses to weasel out of answering my question”

    Actually, I’ve been telling you outright that your example isn’t relevant and thereby I’m not going to answer because it’s not worth my time. That’s not weaseling; that’s simply not answering a stupid, derailing question. You’re clearly under the impression you get to determine how the conversation here is going to go. Unsurprisingly, all things considered, you’re wrong about that.

    “WHY do standards of fairness that apply in every other human interaction suddenly cease to apply in this one? THAT is what I want to know.”

    This question is faulty in its assumption, i.e., that there are standards of fairness that apply in every other human interaction.

  504. And by “treats you like dirt,” I mean actual actions such as calling you names, hitting you, calling the bouncer when all you did was say hello, etc. That’s not cool at all. Declining to talk with you further is not treating you like dirt. It’s choosing to do something other than talk to you.

  505. @Timmy: “But WHY is it different in this scenario? WHY do standards of fairness that apply in every other human interaction suddenly cease to apply in this one? THAT is what I want to know.” “I do make the effort to read social cues and I will not continue to press the point once I can see that a girl is not interested in me, but if I felt that she had jumped to an unfair conclusion about me based on a silly misunderstanding then I would take umbrage.”

    For starters, in a lot of scenarios your last two statements are contradictory. Maybe not you, but lots of creeps out there in the world will quite easily equate “not interested” with “an unfair conclusion about me based on a silly misunderstanding.” And you know why else it’s supposedly different? Because this is how many creeps work. They try to hang around and apologize. In one story I heard recently, the guy’s hanging around extended to dark lonely hallways by the girl’s bedroom. (Which isn’t effing fair either!) So, in order for girls to feel safe, you need to not act like a creep and press the point. Even if it doesn’t seem “fair.”

  506. Timmy: Treating people with disrespect without justification is wrong.

    I’d agree. I think the whole conversation about “don’t be a creeper” is based on the notion that creeping is wrong. I still have no idea what “creeping is wrong” has to do with your example, with or without the shoulder check bit.

    Consider, for a moment, that the two are completely unrelated. Or unreleated enough that you’re the only one who sees the connection between them. In either case, further pursuit of tying in this “what if” situation is going nowhere.

    If the point is people should be fair. Fine. One could look at the original post as being fair, don’t be a creeper. But now you think someone’s been unfair to you, and you’ve dropped everything else in pursuit of that.

    Greg, if you, Kat or anyone else wanted me to clarify what I meant because you thought I was being a bit vague, then by all means I will do so.

    You need to be a bit more proactive about it. you might accomplish that by getting back to your original point and original topic.

    Kat insinuating that I am advocating sexual assault just because you’re not sure what I mean is jumping the gun just a tad, don’t you think?

    Lets assume that it was completely and totally uncalled for. COmpletely and totally unfair. Even in that case, it’s got nothing to do with whatever your original point was about “going for it” and how explicit permission is a “mugs game”. If in the absolute worst case, Kat did what she did to derail you, you got pulled right into it. Now you’re talking about how what she said isn’t fair. So what? If she’s not fair. Ignore her and get back to your original point.

    I recognise that many girls do not like this and prefer you to play their guessing game because they think it’s more fun.

    I have to wonder what planet you’re living on, because that isn’t my experience of women, at all.

    So in the interest of not being a hermit for the rest of my life I shrug my shoulders and say “OK, fine” and do my best to play by their rules.

    Well, that’s your big mistake right there. You need to play by your rules. And you need to find women who want to play with someone who plays by your rules. Why would you date a woman you think is playing games?

    sometimes people will innocently get it wrong,

    Probably. Misunderstandings happen.

    so lambasting people for it is unreasonable.

    Who is lambasting anyone for a misunderstanding?

    Let’s pretend the thing between you and Kat is a complete and total misunderstanding. Lets go so far as to pretend that the misunderstanding is totally Kat’s fault. The whole “sexual assault” thing is all her fabrication.

    That would be a misunderstanding, right?

    Would you say you are trying to clarify the misunderstanding or would you say you are lambasting Kat and everyone else because they’re misunderstanding you?

    If it is wrong to lambast someone for a misunderstanding, what are you doing to Kat but lambasting her for a misunderstanding?

    Do you see the issue here? It’s like you want to be able to have a misunderstanding and kiss someone who you misunderstood to be interested and find out they’re not. But you’re not giving very much space for others to have a misunderstanding of your words. And as I’ve pointed out a couple times now, you haven’t been exactly unambiguous in what you’re saying with “go for it” and “mugs game” stuff.

  507. If you feel a need to correct someone’s misunderstanding of you so they will not have an unfair opinion of you, and you can’t understand that the other person isn’t required to hear your explanation or change their opinion to the one you feel they should have, then you will be creeping on them. You do not get to control how other people think of you even when they’re wrong. If you persist in wanting to change their mind, you’re only proving them right.

  508. Scalzi: you keep saying my question is irrelevant yet you don’t explain why. I am (1) suggesting to you that there are some situations in which someone else’s behaviour towards you would make you angry and (2) asking you why the scenario of a girl unfairly treating you like a creep is any different.

    BW, I agree that sometimes you just have to walk away if you don’t want to be fighting and arguing with people all the time, even when you think they’re being completely unreasonable. But that’s a matter of practicality; in principle, it still gets my back up. Sure, someone else might reasonably disagree with me – but to say that it just doesn’t matter is something else entirely.

  509. Timmy:

    “Scalzi: you keep saying my question is irrelevant yet you don’t explain why.”

    Well, no. I’ve explained why twice. You’re not happy with my answer, but this is not my problem.

    It is instructive, however, as to why having to rely on your definition of what is appropriate behavior is problematic. You’re not willing to accept the fact I’m not going to answer your question — it doesn’t seem “fair” to you that I don’t, I would guess — so your response is to keep harping on it, again and again, because you think I should have to answer it.

    I would like to know what you think would happen if you applied the same sort of dynamic to a nice young woman who you thought wasn’t treating you fairly. Because I think the outcome of the whole “keep harping on that one thing until you get your way” strategy there would be, well, interesting to see.

  510. Timmy: if I felt that she had jumped to an unfair conclusion about me based on a silly misunderstanding then I would take umbrage

    Just to make sure I understand what you’re saying here:

    unfair conclusion: the person thinks something about you that isn’t true. (that’s the only way I can parse “unfair conclusion”, but I’m not sure)

    umbrage: offense or annoyance.

    So, if someone thinks something inaccurate about you, then you would be offended?

    Is that correct?

  511. Greg, Kat’s mistake was in jumping to negative conclusions about me and putting words in my mouth because she has reading comprehension issues. The context of this debate is very different because unlike a girl in a potential dating environment I am not trying to make non-verbal insinuations, so if I haven’t said it you shouldn’t assume it.

    You’re lucky if most of the girls in your life have appreciated complete frankness, because that’s not been my experience and even my female friends subscribe to the theory. Here on planet England, anyway. And as I’ve said, it’s not like my approach has been unsuccessful – are you telling me you’ve never had a one night stand? Asking for express permission for everything is a “mug’s game” in that girls find it awkward and boring, which means you have to just do your best to interpret social cues.

    When I talked about “going for it” I mean the example of a situation in which you sense, based on body language, distance, facial expressions and rapport that the moment is right to go for that first kiss, or to escalate the situation further if that’s what the girl appears to be going for. Context is everything, of course.

    Scalzi, you haven’t explained why my example is not relevant. All you’ve done is insist that I’m shifting the goalposts and said I’m wrong to assume that there are objective standards of fairness in any situation. I highly doubt that, if I treated you the way I described in my example, you would be totally OK with it.

    BW, in fairness, you have actually addressed the issue in a way that Scalzi hasn’t by drawing the following distinction: in my example, we’re talking about someone committing actual hurtful actions, whereas in the example of a girl refusing to associate with a guy she considers “creepy” she is not actually doing any harm. Personally, if someone started a policy of ignoring me when I didn’t feel I would do anything wrong I would take offence at that. That’s not to say I’m going to press the point and argue about it, because like you say it’s not worth it, but as a matter of principle I’d still think that person was out of order.

  512. Timmy, the other really disturbing thing about your statements is that you would become angry over a misunderstanding. That’s not fair, either. That in turn makes me think your viewpoint is basically that you’re right and that anyone who disagrees with you or your self-assessment is wrong, bad, and unfair.

    This is irrational.

    Try this, instead: when there’s a misunderstanding, take the position that it’s no one’s fault. That’s the first step. Then use the courtesy technique of taking the blame for what’s no one’s fault. This is not only kind to others, but tends to decrease their annoyance at you (justified or not). “I’m sorry, I see I gave an incorrect impression of my intentions” goes over a LOT better than “How dare you misinterpret my intentions!”

    This might be a little manipulative. All social communication is. If you’re not willing to manipulate people a little bit, you will be a complete social outcast.

    Teresa Nielsen Hayden once said that some people want to be whatever they want, do whatever they want, and GET whatever they want…but virtually everyone has to choose at most two of these. Wise words, and highly applicable to your case.

  513. Scalzi, I don’t think it’s “unfair” of you to avoid my question, I simply think you’re avoiding it for intellectually dishonest reasons. I think there are situations in which even you would feel that you had been treated unfairly and you would not be spouting this “oh well it’s all subjective and I can’t make them comply with my standards of fairness” argument in that situation, so I want to know what you think is different about this situation that makes my question irrelevant. Or are you seriously telling me that the way people treat you never bothers you?

  514. Timmy:

    “Scalzi, you haven’t explained why my example is not relevant you’ve explained why my example is not relevant but not in a way that I like or want to accept, so I’m going to keep trying to get you to answer it in the way I want you to because I really really really really have to have my way stomp stomp stompy stomp stomp.”

    Fixed that for you, Timmy.

    You continue to be your own best example of why you should not be trusted to be an arbiter of appropriate behavior, Timmy.

  515. Xopher: I don’t think people who disagree with me are always unfair or irrational. I’m happy to accept that a misunderstanding is no-one’s fault, but if it’s no-one’s fault why should I apologise and take the blame for it? I’m not a doormat.

  516. I understand that it bothers you to think that someone has an incorrect impression of you. It bothers a lot of people a great deal. Accepting that there are things we can’t control, and that what’s in someone else’s head is one of those things, can be difficult. Once you can truly assimilate that idea and even find it good, interacting with people can become a lot easier. I encourage you to continue to work on accepting your total lack of control over what other people think about you. I consider it very fair: I get to think what I want, and you get to think what you want. I don’t get to change what you think, and you don’t get to change what I think. Believe it or not, it takes a lot of pressure off when you get comfortable with that idea.

    If someone I had hoped would like me obviously thinks I’m an asshole, it doesn’t make me happy. But it happens, and my feelings about it are mine to process in private. It’s a lot easier to get over it when I remember that we’re all entitled to our own judgments, and I’m not required to like people just because they want me to, and the same goes in the other direction.

  517. Scalzi, I’ll let you have the last word on that particular point as we’re going round in circles.

  518. Timmy:

    How delightfully gracious of you to deign, on my own site, where I have complete control of the mechanics of the conversation, to allow me to have the last word. Thank you.

  519. Cross posted the above with Timmy. It’s not polite (to put it mildly) to say that others have reading-comprehension issues. It’s much more likely that YOU aren’t communicating well.

    For example, your penultimate paragraph above begins “Scalzi,” which reads as an address to Our Host. Your final paragraph begins “BW, in fairness, you have actually addressed the issue in a way that Scalzi hasn’t…” and there is no intervening address to anyone else. What that means is that Scazi has addressed the issue as Scalzi hasn’t, which is patent nonsense. Clearly you meant something else, but your words don’t mean what you meant to say.

    This is applicable to the general discussion because if you sent wrong social cues, it also, as here, doesn’t matter one whit what’s in your heart or mind. Signals have the meaning that is read, not the meaning intended by the sender. So if there’s a misunderstanding of your social signals, it’s on YOU to fix it.

  520. [Deleted because Timmy could not resist the temptation not to give me the last word, so I’m going to go ahead and enforce it, in accordance with his original wishes.

    Also, Timmy, in a general sense I’ve run out of patience with you on this thread, and you’re becoming increasingly rude to others. Off you go — JS]

  521. Xopher: I don’t think people who disagree with me are always unfair or irrational. I’m happy to accept that a misunderstanding is no-one’s fault, but if it’s no-one’s fault why should I apologise and take the blame for it? I’m not a doormat.

    Because it makes other people like you better? Because it’s courteous, and you want to be thought of as courteous? Because it might give you a chance to clear up the misunderstanding, while “taking umbrage” will not? Because if people think you’re a jerk (even if they’re wrong) doing something obviously non-jerky (even anti-jerky, which is what courtesy is) might make them realize they were wrong out of the box, and give you another chance?

    It’s interesting that you think taking the blame for something that isn’t your fault makes you a doormat. ISTM that people with that attitude a) often have a history of being treated as doormats but b) are in more danger of being treated as unpleasant people to be avoided than as doormats.

  522. Xopher, et al:

    Please note I’ve now invited Timmy off the thread, so it’s probably best not to tempt him to come back and try to respond.

  523. Timmy: ” if someone started a policy of ignoring me when I didn’t feel I would do anything wrong I would take offence at that. That’s not to say I’m going to press the point and argue about it, because like you say it’s not worth it, but as a matter of principle I’d still think that person was out of order.”

    The problem with that stance is that it rests on the assumption that you have the right to the other person’s attention as long as you didn’t feel you would do anything wrong. Nobody has the right to another person’s attention in a social setting. They can grant you their attention or not, depending on whether they feel like talking to you or not *for any reason.* If I ignore you because your voice grates on me, through no fault of your own, it’s just how your voice is–well, I don’t feel I have an obligation to listen to a voice that grates on me, even if you’re a perfectly nice person. If I ignore you because you remind me of my ex-boyfriend for some reason and right now, I’d rather not be reminded of him–well, I have no obligation to talk to you or anyone just because we happen to be in the same room.

    You can take offense if you want, but you might consider the saying “Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” You’re only hurting yourself by taking offense when people behave in ways they have a right to. You could learn to become less easily offended and have a more emotionally positive life.

  524. [Deleted for responding to a deleted comment, after I’ve invited the commenter off the thread. Guys, for serious, y’all. — JS]

  525. John
    I did not see your post, since my response took me a while to write, but obviously delete it…

  526. “Please note I’ve now invited Timmy off the thread, so it’s probably best not to tempt him to come back and try to respond.” But he never responded to anything I said anyway! >_> ::ducks::

  527. John, your intentions are admirable. The recipe… less so. Personal space is cultural, and anyway “no generality is worth a damn, and neither is this one” as I think some beardy old white dude once said. You can’t really build a set of rules that covers real life; at some point every person has to take a chance at being rejected, at being shot down, at failure, or they will never achieve anything that couldn’t have been done better by an automaton.

    Consider this: If two single young people meet, are immensely attracted to each other, and both follow your advice… they won’t ever end up having babies together. If both sides are waiting for the other to initiate, nothing can be initiated. Everyone loses.

    Not defending creepiness in any way. Just saying that at some point, you’re probably going to do something that can be perceived as creepy, and you’re just going to have to take your lumps for it, or you may as well be a robot. Any human who has never screwed up has never accomplished anything, either.

  528. Marcy

    What’s fascinating is that the incomplete guide was written in reply to a email to John saying this:

    “Any tips on how not to be a creeper? I try not to be, but I don’t know that I’m the best judge of that.”

    If we compare that last sentence with, say, Timmy’s many posts, it seems to me obvious that we can, and should, honour the people who are genuinely trying to do better; he’s anonymous so it’s a bit harder to decide whether the sun is over the yard arm so we can raise our glasses in his direction, but I’m sure we won’t mind adding in few extra drinks to be on the safe side….

  529. Charlie:

    “Consider this: If two single young people meet, are immensely attracted to each other, and both follow your advice… they won’t ever end up having babies together. If both sides are waiting for the other to initiate, nothing can be initiated.”

    If only there were some way that they could express their interest in each other… in a way that was unambiguous… and didn’t involve immediate physical touch… Oh! For a sort of communication medium where such a thing was possible!

  530. Charlie: you’re probably going to do something that can be perceived as creepy, and you’re just going to have to take your lumps for it

    I think if the definition of “creepy” is “making someone feel uncomfortable, and once you realize you’re doing it, not apologizing, backing off, or changing your behavior”, then your statement holds very little water.

    If “creepy” is just “someone feels uncomfortable around us”, then yeah, we’ll all end up being creeps at one point. If “creepy” isn’t defined by their feelings, but by our response to their feelings, then we have the power to turn that moment into either a creepy moment, or into a simple misunderstanding.

    If both sides are waiting for the other to initiate, nothing can be initiated.

    Well, I took that bit of advice to be directed specifically at people who have to ask “Any tips on how not to be a creeper?”. If you have to ask, then probably best that you don’t initiate.

  531. Charlie, here are John’s suggestions:

    1. Acknowledge that you are responsible for your own actions.
    2. Acknowledge that you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you.
    3. Acknowledge that no one’s required to inform you that you’re creeping (or help you to not be a creeper).
    4. Acknowledge that other people do not exist just for your amusement/interest/desire/use.
    5. Don’t touch.
    6. Give them space.
    7. Don’t box people in.
    8. That amusing sexual innuendo? So not amusing.
    9. Someone wants to leave? Don’t go with them.
    10. Someone doesn’t want you around? Go away.

    In my experience (and I’m well into middle age, so this is a lot of years of experience and observation), most people manage to couple up without either party violating those guidelines when they first met. Your mileage must be very different if you really believe it’s not possible. Nowhere did John say, “Do not initiate a conversation” or “Do not initiate a social interaction.”

  532. You know, when I first met Krissy, she came up to me, talked to me and then we danced, and then we talked, and then we danced some more, and then there was more dancing, followed by a little more talking, and then, as she left, I gave her my business card so she could call me if she wanted.

    At no time in any of that, to the best of my recollection, did we actually touch, except to the extent that I was holding one end of the business card as she took the other.

    And yet! We had a baby! Not that night, mind you. Some time later. Even so.

  533. Scalzi: If only there were some way that they could express their interest in each other… in a way that was unambiguous… and didn’t involve immediate physical touch… Oh! For a sort of communication medium where such a thing was possible!

    Oooh… I know this one. I saw it on a John Cusack movie… it’s called a… a… compilation tape! Yes!

    Wait. With the extinction of cassette tapes and even CD’s, I can see how folks today might have a problem in the dating scene, what with no way to exchange compilation tapes to say how they really feel….

  534. If two single young people meet, are immensely attracted to each other, and both follow your advice… they won’t ever end up having babies together. If both sides are waiting for the other to initiate, nothing can be initiated. Everyone loses.

    Dude, I realize that others, including our estimable host, have already mocked you for this remark, but some things are worth a pile-on.

    I have this image of two cave people, pre-invention-of-language, staring mutely at each other in a sort of ’70s disco kind of thing and then sadly walking away from each other. You are responsible for this image, and I resent you.

    I mean, really?

  535. @cranapia:

    I am fairly certain I am not a replicant.

    What kind of behavior = honesty? Openness?

    If I’ve been chatting with a guy and we have good “chemistry”, and he asks me out, I would like to let him know *why* I’m not interested. Just like if I were straight and had a boyfriend, I would say “I have a boyfriend” — presumably, he would respect that and not act rude about it. I would like to be respected for saying “I am gay.”

    I don’t think it’s unrealistic to hope and strive for a geek community where queer people don’t have to worry about “basic safety strategies” like concealing our orientation.

  536. Ontogenesis, you are misunderstanding what cranapia is saying. It wasn’t addressed to you but to people talking to others who may be gay and supporting your position. I didn’t get it the first time either, so I’d suggest going back and reading it again.

    Drat, Timmy got kicked off before I could have fun with the juicy “grinding in the club” analogy. I’ll just leave one thing for him to read: Timmy, I was not putting thoughts into your head. I was trying to make you see that what you were saying literally meant something different than you thought you were saying and was also contradictory. Also, my heartfelt suggestion to all young straight men here, or for that matter, young female lesbians: do not listen to young women when they advise you to treat other young women badly. Sometimes young women take some time to learn that women are not automatically abuse targets.

    Moving on, Charlie also is part of the Cramping My Style contingent, who firmly believes that he will not be able to get it on with a young woman unless he may freely sexually harass all young women he encounters who he likes the looks of. To support this idea, he insists that incidents of sexual harassment are the exact same thing as two people animatedly talking to each other and making gooey eyes at each other. This allows him to support the notion that we can ignore harassment at cons because when a guy presses up against a strange young woman there, tells her how much he wants to do her, and follows her when she tries to get away from him, that’s the same as flirting, so it’s perfectly okay. Otherwise, there will be no relationships. Yeah, no. Here’s the thing: if you think you’re brilliant at reading social cues and can thus tell when a woman is attracted to you — you’re probably lousy at reading social cues. Harassers routinely make the claim that the woman was clearly into them, therefore they weren’t harassing. At a SF convention, you may end up talking a lot to a woman, and this may eventually lead to things like exchanging contact info, relationships, even marriage. But a convention is not a pick up bar, a dance club or a singles mixer, and if you are acting as if it is, then you’ve probably been sexually harassing women at these conventions and forcing your attentions on them. (For that matter, if you think it’s okay to harass women just because they are at a dance club, pick up bar or social mixer, you are also being a scumbag.) Until you can talk to women whom you are attracted to and not turn it into the goal of getting laid, until you can treat her as a person whom it is nice to talk to rather than treat her main value as a thing with breasts, you don’t get to tell others about what is and isn’t harassment and what constitutes relationships. Because you have the arrested mind of a really ignorant 12-year-old.

  537. Actually, single young people usually figure it out for themselves. When their friends, parents, pastors, doctors, scout leaders, teachers, coaches, teammates, roommates, … unite to push the couple together before they do, they then may not figure it out for … years, decades, maybe never. If you’re going to do such a thing, don’t be subtle, and don’t talk to one of the couple, talk to both at once. There can be psychological ego defenses making a mountain range between them (fed by that pushing!) Grab one hand of each, put their hands together, holding them in yours, and tell then both, together, that the other one really likes them. Get each of them to say that. And then leave them. If one of those pushing had done that for us then … we don’t know what would have happened, but this half-century would have been different.

  538. Fessing up: I typed a number of replies to Timmy, which I am now rewording as general advice and explicitly not directing at him. Some I have simply deleted because they only worked as specific replies.

    A guy should make an effort to read social cues. So should a gal. And for anyone who can’t, it’s their responsibility to make sure they aren’t making unwanted advances, which may well involve asking instead of being spontaneous. And since no one lives in a vacuum, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect them to know if they have trouble reading those cues, and take the appropriate precautions. Those precautions don’t include not going out the front door or getting on buses, but they do include asking before kissing someone. Someone who knows they’re poor at reading those cues and still takes the risk of forcing themself on someone else, that’s creeping. Someone who can read those cues and ignores them, that’s creeping. Creeping isn’t a matter of social intelligence; it’s a matter of consideration for others.

    Kissing is not an acceptable opening communication.

    If some people said life’s no fun without the occasional game of Russian roulette, the rest of us wouldn’t throw up our hands and say I guess they’ve left me no choice.

    It’s perfectly possible to signal physical attraction without kissing someone. Friendship and romance are not separate zones. If someone thinks the only way to spark a physical relationship is by avoiding being someone’s friend, then perhaps that person is focused on dating players. Which is fine for that person, but they should not expect every other woman to play that game with them just because they choose to date women who will only date a man who marks them like territory prior to old fashioned behavior like asking them out.

    Everyone is entitled to consider others’ opinions of them out of order. Provided they accept that there is nothing they can do about it, that’s fine.

    I once bought a piece of exercise equipment from a store. It ended up not working very well, so I took it back for a return. The store was one of a small specialty chain, and there were two chains owned by the same company. I got them mixed up and tried to return it to the wrong store. The manager behind the counter realized they didn’t sell the product. Once we’d worked out that I’d bought it from the other store, he rather abruptly flipped out on me, cursing and telling me he’d call the police if I ever came back to his store. Suffice it to say, I was nonplussed. But instead of trying to explain that it was an honest mistake, I simply took my exercise equipment to the correct store and returned it without incident.

    Since then I have bought equipment for two dojos totaling in the tens of thousands of dollars. The latter store, where the manager was polite and understanding, got all that business. The other store, judging from the going out of business signs, went out of business within a year (I assume because of a pattern of mismanagement rather than because of my lost business personally). But at no point did I try to change the mind of the person who had decided I was the scum of the earth. I was mildly irritated for about a day and then let it go because I had better things to spend my time thinking about.

    If you want to live in the adult world, you have to respect people’s right to be creeped out by your behavior. And if you want to avoid being pegged as a serial creeper, you better amend that behavior instead of trying to excuse it. Because, as noted so many times, you don’t get to decide what behavior towards them they have to put up with, any more than they get to decide that toward you. If you decide to put up with someone kissing you unbidden, that’s your choice, but not one you get to make for the rest of us.

    @ Greg

    Speaking from experience, this approach worked extremely well for me back when I was dating. I didn’t use this approach every time (sometimes it was obvious they were interested and sometimes it was obvious they weren’t interested), but every time I used it, things went very well.

    I’ve been in situations where I was uncertain, so I asked. I’ve been in situations where I was certain, so I went ahead and kissed her. I’ve also been in situations where a girl (and I’m not using girl to be diminutive, we were both minors at the time) kissed me because holy moly was I sending out signals letting her know I wanted to kiss her. What did all of these situations have in common? No one kissed anyone unless they were reasonably certain it was wanted. If you can’t read those signals, then it’s your responsibility to learn. If you can’t or won’t learn, then ask every time.

    @ Marcy

    So sounds like, if you take what Scalzi just said, and put it in your scenario with the clubbing, instead of “…and yes I occasionally got it wrong, but I recognised my mistake and backed off if that was the case” the person in question is trying to argue with the girl or guy when he or she says to back off. “Hey! You were sending signals! I’m not being a creep! How could you ever get that idea!” instead of leaving. You don’t get to do that. Boo hoo.

    Bingo.

    @ BW

    If Person B unfairly judges Person A as obnoxious and politely declines further interaction, that is perfectly acceptable. It’s when the Person A doesn’t accept Person B’s declining of interaction that the behavior becomes creeping.

    Exactly so.

  539. Gulliver

    I should simply like to add that here on planet England exactly the same rules apply, and that someone who constantly makes belittling references to women is simply demonstrating that the women who find him creepy are entirely justified in their views…

  540. Rasputin, this has been covered in detail above, but no, you’re wrong. Unattractive guy asks me out? I might say no, but he isn’t creepy. Attractive guy walks up and makes overt violent sexual comments to me? Creepy as hell.

  541. @ Rasputin

    Oh, look, another drive-by commenter tossing in a strawman that’s been addressed at length two or three times already in the course of the thread.

    News flash: people who assume the only reason someone doesn’t want to interact with them is that they don’t meet to some culturally normative definition of attractive, are really unattractive people to be around for reasons that have nothing to do with how they look. But if you’d rather feed your persecution complex than actually try giving other people an ounce of credit for not being shallow dirtbags, good luck with that.

    TL:DR – Would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

  542. Why do you keep deleting Ian Iornwoods posts? Do you want a discussion or just an echochamber?

  543. and:

    When I deleted them, I explained why. Go back and read them again! You’ll see!

    Deleting his posts didn’t make it an echo chamber around here. It did, however, rid the discussion of a certain tiresomeness.

  544. @Ontogenesis:

    Sorry, that was meant to be a general comment not specifically directed at you. Clumsy wording on my part, and please accept my apologies for any offence I caused.

    But seriously, I have lesbian friends who’ve said “I’m gay” and had it taken as some kind of challenge to double down on the assbaggery. In one very ugly case, an attempted rape ’cause we all know that’s how you ‘cure’ lesbians, right?

    And sorry if this sounds egotistical, but I’ve been hit on by women despite being queer as a three dollar bill. I shouldn’t have to out myself to a total stranger, especially in an unfamiliar social context where my internal threat assessor is screaming “I’m not so sure this is a good idea.” I’ve learned the hard way to listen to that voice.

  545. Gulliver:

    “this is a long thread and I wouldn’t expect every poster to necessarily read it in its entirety.”

    You said this way back in an initial response to a certain someone. The following isn’t directed at you; it’s a general response.

    I get wanting to be inclusive. And, I understand wanting to contribute to a conversation but not having time to read through all the comments. On John’s follow up today, I’d like to comment, but I haven’t read any of the comments yet. So, I’m not sure what the context of the current conversation is.

    Why shouldn’t we expect a person to read the whole conversation before trying to contribute? Particularly in a thread ostensibly about one’s responsibility to be situationally aware. Particularly in a thread where people seem to think that it isn’t fair to call them a creep because they don’t want to pay attention to social cues. I mean, isn’t reading the conversation (still shorter than a novella) an example of exactly that type of behavior?

    I don’t know, maybe it’s a pretty situationally specific obesrvation. I can think of some examples where it isn’t like that. And, I can see how I might be sort of conflating trolling and creeping.

    But, I do think that one has an obligation to at least familiarize one’s self with the context of a serious conversation before jumping in and depositing a pile of thoughts previously hashed out at length.

  546. @ Other Bill

    You make a good point. I try to distinguish between when a commenter is genuinely confused by something that a thread skimming might not necessarily illuminate, as I believe was the case with Timmy (concerning his initial comment, anyway), and when a commenter is simply rehashing a strawman that was offensive, disingenuous and shallow the first five times it was trotted out of the barn, as I believe was the case with Rasputin. Obviously my reading of a commenter’s tone and sincerity could be wrong. YMMV.

    I’ll add that there has been threads where the original post inspired a thought I wanted to share, and which I believed had a reasonable likelihood of being fairly unique (usually something I thought relevant which I’d experienced), but that I simply could not afford the hour it would take to read several hundred comments. In those cases, I make it clear up front that I haven’t read the whole thread, and that there is therefore some risk I’m reflogging a dead horse. That way anyone who wants to avoid comments that aren’t directly referencing the discussions in progress can simply skip mine. I’ll also note that this is why, in addition to my natural desire for order, I favor threaded comments (though I do also see the benefit John does in the beautiful chaos of an single-stream thread).

  547. Gulliver:

    “Obviously my reading of a commenter’s tone and sincerity could be wrong. YMMV.”

    Definitely wasn’t commenting on your ability to judge tone or intent in other commenters, just to be clear. And, totally up to you who you engage and how, as a matter of course.

    My thought was more generally oriented. If I want to contribute meaningfully to a conversation I really need to engage thoroughly with what’s in front of me. I need to do the assigned reading. Particularly if its a subject in which I am not already well versed. If people have spent all day hashing out a specific topic and I want to enter the fray, such as it currently is, I think it’s imperative to read the totality.

    Just like, if I want to interact with another person, I need to keep my eyes and ears and mind open. And, to avoid big footing my way into accidental creeper territory, I need to be aware of what’s going on around me. Situational awareness. And, if I’m not used to interacting in a particular social environment with other people, I should probably being doing my best to be as informed as possible by the clues and cues currently being given out.

    “I’ll add that there has been threads where the original post inspired a thought I wanted to share, and which I believed had a reasonable likelihood of being fairly unique (usually something I thought relevant which I’d experienced), but that I simply could not afford the hour it would take to read several hundred comments.”

    I think this is not the same as, for example, what Timmy was doing.

    “anyone who wants to avoid comments that aren’t directly referencing the discussions in progress can simply skip mine. I’ll also note that this is why, in addition to my natural desire for order, I favor threaded comments (though I do also see the benefit John does in the beautiful chaos of an single-stream thread).”

    I have no reasonable defense for the intensity of loathing I have for threaded comments. But, in a perfect world where everyone did the assigned reading, I concede that this is one benefit of threaded comments.

  548. Other Bill: hear, hear. It’s very irritating to read the same post over and over because several people haven’t bothered to find out that their point has already been represented (the Teenage Writing comment thread being a major offender). I ended up not making a comment that I wanted to on the Joe Peacock thread because I didn’t want to annoy other people and at no point before it was closed had I gotten through ALL of the comments. And sure enough, when I did read the whole thing someone had said something along the same line, so the essence of My Great Insight had been contributed even if by someone else’s hand. Which, in a community as thoughtful as this one, is likely to occur in any lengthy thread.

    Which I guess also obliquely suggests that I have nothing to say on this thread that hasn’t been said already, so I should probably stop typing now.

  549. @cranapia

    Thanks, I misunderstood you.

    I don’t think that anyone *should* feel obligated to “out” themselves (only the individual involved can make that call)– but I hope that one day that people feel/are safe enough to be openly gay, and that it will be generally accepted that it’s rude and creepy to become angry if the person you’re crushing on turns out to be gay.

    Basically I’m hoping for a shift in social thinking, and I think we should hold the geek community to a higher standard — as geeks tend to pride themselves on being logical / rational thinkers.

  550. Ontogenesis, as a gay man and fan/nerd/geek, let me tell you that gay men are more welcome in the fannish community than fan/nerd/geeks are in the gay men’s community. At least that’s been my experience, and the reason why I’ve spent a lot of time in fandom and very little in the gay community (no, ‘gaydom’ isn’t a word).

  551. @ Xopher Halftongue

    You’d think people who have been the systematic target of bigoted discrimination for thousands of years would be a bit less quick to exclude others over differences.

  552. Gulliver, you’d think, but sometimes discrimination (thousands of years or only a few) can bring out the bully in certain people. For example, as many people in the US do, I have a bit of Irish blood. I also find Irish history fascinating. Well, back in the time of the Potato Famine when Irish were flocking to America and signs read, “Irish and blacks need not apply” (or whatever slurs they’d use), the Irish were… pretty horrible to the blacks. In general. Like “we’re bad, but at least we’re not like THEM.”

    Also, Other Bill, I like the distinction between what Timmy was doing and sharing a thought in Gulliver’s style. The first time I saw, “The very least you can do is read all the comments!” I thought it was meant across the board. Wasn’t as familiar yet with the people who always make the exact same objections as the last fellow.

  553. “It may not seem fair that “creep” (dumb slut) is their assessment of you, but: Surprise! It doesn’t matter, and if you try to argue with them (or anyone else) that you’re in fact not being a creep (dumb slut) and the problem is with them not you, then you go from “creep” (dumb slut) to “complete assbag.” (complete bitch) Sometimes people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you. It’s just the way it is.”

    Congratulations, John. You provided a sound argument for simply banning women from DEFCON. After all, if the dorks there don’t like women or want them near them, it’s just the way it is.

  554. Marcy: Even though I do have strong feelings about assigned reading and group conversations I am, on ocassion, overzealous in my pronouncements.

  555. “It may not seem fair that “creep” (dumb slut) is their assessment of you”

    If you don’t know the difference between the reasons women are labelled ‘dumb sluts’ and men being labelled ‘creeps’, please to be keeping your interactions with those of the vagina’ed persuasion to a minimum. You’re not ready for them, and probably never will be.

  556. If you don’t know the difference between the reasons women are labelled ‘dumb sluts’ and men being labelled ‘creeps’, please to be keeping your interactions with those of the vagina’ed persuasion to a minimum.

    The difference is irrelevant. As John has noted, “you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you.” And sometimes “people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you. It’s just the way it is.”

    Deal with it, Ann. Just deal with it.

  557. VD:

    You know, I saw in a Google search that you wrote on this piece at your blog, and I thought to myself, “oh, great, now I go have to deal with some dumbass comment from him on the site.” And I was right!

    You provided a sound argument for simply banning women from DEFCON I created a lazy inference from what you said based on a bad equivalence I just made, and tried to make it look like you’re responsible.”

    Fixed that for you, VD.

    For your next trick of bad equivalence, why don’t you put the word “droid” in parentheses and congratulate me for coming up with a valid excuse for banning R2D2 from the Mos Eisley cantina?

    If this is really what you’ve come to say, don’t really need to be on this thread, VD. Shoo.

    Everyone else, best to leave VD uncommented upon.

  558. [Deleted because the point this jackhole was purporting to make was just an excuse for him to call women obnoxious things on my site. Hi there, trolls from VD’s site! Just because you wallow in a feculent miasma of male self-regard over there doesn’t mean you get to port it over here — JS]

  559. As a heads up to folks, as Vox Day just linked into this entry from his site, you can expect a higher level of sexist trolling and bad logic popping up here as his habitues wander by. Calibrate accordingly.

  560. Congratulations, John. You provided a sound argument for simply banning women from DEFCON. After all, if the dorks there don’t like women or want them near them, it’s just the way it is.

    [dispassionate debunking (for the record) mode]
    VD, the DEFCON “dorks” do mostly claim to want women there, the creeper subset just wants to engage in hostile/chilly climate behaviour at them as well. They don’t get to have it both ways.
    [/DD(FTR)M]

  561. You should do well to note that I didn’t insult you, or call you names – I simply used the term denoting the female equivalent of a “creep” to express my point. If you’re so offended by the term, the question is really simple – As you said persons have a right to call anyone whom they feel uncomfortable around with a “creep”, don’t I have a right to call a woman a “creep” if I feel uncomfortable around her? Don’t I have the right to ban people who are creepy from my conference/club? Those are very simple questions.

  562. Physphilmusic:

    “I simply used the term denoting the female equivalent of a ‘creep’ to express my point.”

    No, you used a term that you saw VD use to make a rather poor comparison and thought it was open season to be a sexist jackass on my site, using his use as cover for your own purile obnoxiousness. You were overruled, and you don’t get a vote on the matter.

    “As you said persons have a right to call anyone whom they feel uncomfortable around with a ‘creep’, don’t I have a right to call a woman a ‘creep’ if I feel uncomfortable around her?”

    Actually that’s not what I wrote, or more accurately you’re paraphrasing what I wrote in a manner that’s inaccurate. Go back and read it with more attention this time. While you’re reading that more closely, pay better attention to how ‘creep’ is not used exclusively used for men, thereby giving a big fat lie to your chest-beating about not being able to use a “female equivalent.”

    “You should do well to note that I didn’t insult you”

    Your assumption that I would tolerate you being an assbag on my site is insulting, in point of fact. Hopefully you will learn. If you don’t, there’s always the Mallet.

  563. I think part of the problem is that in our culture it is almost always the boys who are expected to ask out the girls. If you had equal numbers of boys and girls asking each other out then you’d see more equal numbers of boys and girls being called creeps.

    There isn’t a set way to ask someone out. It differs from person to person. So when a boy asks girls out, he is going to make a mistake sooner or later and be called a creep because of it. This is especially difficult for those who less socially gifted or less good looking because they are more likely to be called creeps for doing the same things that a more socially gifted or better looking boy would do. Yes, people should try not to make other people uncomfortable (less socially gifted people often go to great lengths not to offend people by doing things that more socially gifted people would easily get away with), but we shouldn’t act like they are purposefully making these mistakes. They are trying to learn to get better just like everyone else. It doesn’t make them bad people.

  564. Also I’d like to point out that I have never been to Vox Day’s site so I don’t take any responsibility to what people from that site may say.

  565. Hibernia86

    I think if you actually read John’s series of posts on this issue you would realise that this is well-trodden ground. All of the points you think you are making have been dealt with at great length. And this is not about boys asking girls out, though that is one small part of it.

    Your social interactions would probably improve considerably if you did give careful thought to the information available to you since John is trying to be helpful. If you can’t be bothered to do that then it’s your loss…

  566. Just because your comment comes after Vox Day’s first comment does not in itself imply you’re coming over from that site, Hibernia86.

    Likewise, folks coming over from that site who can comment without immediately presenting as trolling sexist assbags are welcome to comment, too, provided I have not already invited them off the thread.

    This might be a good time to post, yet again, the comment policy around here. So there’s no confusion.

    Also, you know. Read the comment thread first. At this point, 650 comments in, it’s very likely the point you’re trying to make has already been addressed.

  567. [Comment by person who proudly proclaims he’s not going to read anyone else’s contributions to the conversation deleted, because if he’s not going to bother to read what others have to say (on a point which has, in fact already been addressed and disposed of earlier in the thread) I don’t see why he merits having his words read by others here — JS]

  568. Kelly,
    In regards to this

    “Know what else is creepy? When someone you don’t even know orders you, in front of a group, to “Smile!” I used to wonder why I got this a lot, when I wasn’t looking or acting particularly frowny, and then I realized it’s a game that certain creepy, aggressive guys play with women who are quiet. It’s a total dominance play, meant to put you on the spot, and meant to make them feel powerful in front of whoever they’re trying to feel powerful in front of. Creeps.”

    Plenty of women do that to me. They say smile! and its odd and puts me on the spot. Makes me not particularly like the person,s o while fingerpointing and name-calling is nice. everyone does it, not just men.

  569. *usual caveats acknowledging that ‘women can be creepers/men can be abused’, in my use of man/woman and he/she below.

    I have been a lurker around here for a while, and have been following the aftermath of Readercon, and these posts, with interest, weary resignation, and just a little bit of hope. I wish it weren’t so difficult for some of the men in the conversation to step back from the fact that there’s a lot of talking past each other and (wilful or accidental) misunderstandings going on and just say, “I get it. I hear you, and I acknowledge that there is creepy behaviour among (hu)mankind and that although I don’t want to acknowledge it in myself, because I’m a good person, I agree that ‘don’t cross a woman’s boundaries’ — both societal (‘don’t touch without consent’) and stated (‘please leave me alone’) — is an excellent guideline for all people to follow.”

    What I’d really like to hear? “I recognize that you have a right, and need a mechanism, to defend yourself from creeps. I agree that you have a right to set boundaries, and that I need to respect them no matter what my feelings are on the matter, or what my reasons for wanting to cross them are. I propose that there are shy, awkward guys who are unfairly caught in the crossfire, but I do not feel their needs trump your boundaries. I would like a chance to discuss their plight, as an aspect of how to improve the way men and women interact in fandom spaces, but I respect that a discussion of sexual harassment might be a touchy time and place for me to bring that up, especially if you start interpreting that sidebar concern as a defense of indefensible behaviour. Although I’ve had some experiences with defensive women that I feel are relevant, I concede that shifting the discussion from ‘how to respect a woman’s boundaries’ to ‘how men feel about women establishing and defending their boundaries’ is, in itself, an example of the same disregard, when you are struggling to stay on the topic of how to stop sexual harassment and lessen the need to evaluate every male, awkward or not, as a potential threat.”

    But that is my overall reaction to this long discussion. I would like to point Greg, Michael, Timmy, and others to the latest hateful contributions to the thread, and ask — do you understand that this is the behaviour we have been struggling with all our lives? Not in individual incidents, but in a pattern, from the time we developed breasts? That a woman who attempts to establish the most basic boundaries faces disdain and disapproval at the very least, and risks vitriolic hatred, namecalling, threats, and violence? Lest you’re tempted to say “yeah, they’re obviously bad guys you should reject, but we’re good guys just trying to make friends and it’s not fair to lump us in with them”, I’m not trying to paint all men with the same brush, nor labeling our allies “good” and VD and his readers “evil”. The whole point of John’s post is that most of the time VD (or anyone you think we might label “bad”) might be someone all of us might consider a fun guy, a good friend, a reasonable part of our social group, if we never saw these actions firsthand. But in this particular BEHAVIOUR, in their reaction to a woman who (heavens to murgatroyd!) doesn’t want to be touched or spoken to (at all, or on the man’s timetable), they ARE being creeps.

    And women desperately need to find a way to tell all of you (because you are all fun, good, reasonable people who don’t think of yourself as creeps): DON’T BE CREEPY! Can you please, please, please listen to us do that? Please, please, just stop yourself from replying for a minute, put yourself in our shoes, and say “This isn’t about whether or not I’M actually a creep. it’s a legitimate request for me to take the personal responsibility to stop my own creepy behaviour, if I ever become conscious of any — and I can do that.”

    We trust many of you. We’d like to be able to trust all of you. The fact that we’re asking for a safeword of sorts — that we’re attempting to establish a fandom-wide notion that a woman who tells you to stop really NEEDS you to stop — is about deepening that trust. A person that wilfully disregards a safeword, or argues that another person doesn’t need one, can’t be trusted to share anything good/fun/ecstatic with, and too many women have learned too sorrowfully that it’s incredibly risky not to make that judgement and reject/withdraw from a stranger the first time he starts crossing lines. So if you want to earn our trust and friendship and anything else that might proceed from that, don’t cross boundaries!

    Be a good person, listen, and tell us you won’t be creepy. Be a good person, listen, and believe us when we say this problem is real, widespread, profoundly damaging, and won’t go away without your help. Be a good person, listen, and don’t defend the creeps you know. Be a good person, listen, and help us create a fun, friendly, safe con atmosphere where we don’t feel threatened, and then introduce us to your shy, awkward, nerdy friends. Be a good person, listen, and then women (as a group) are much more likely to give your awkward friend exactly the benefit of the doubt you’re looking for — as long as you respect that no individual woman owes any particular man more than basic civility, and accept it gracefully if she declines someone’s company.

    And if we give your friend who’s a good person the benefit of the doubt, and he violates our boundaries anyway… Be a good person. Listen. Believe us. Tell him he’s in the wrong — don’t tell him OR us that we just misunderstood his motives.

  570. It amazes me, really, that in any situation where you have a negative behavior, and that behavior is generated at a rate of 95% from men to women, and 5% from women to men, the immediate argument is “Well, women do it too, and so it isn’t really men doing it! What about the men who have this happen to them! You can’t say this is something just men do!”. It of course is designed to utterly ignore the 95% of the time when in fact it IS men doing that thing at the expense of women, and to dismiss their legitimate concerns.

    I think my eyes just rolled into my spine.

  571. @ Hibernia86

    I think part of the problem is that in our culture it is almost always the boys who are expected to ask out the girls.

    More’s the pity.

    If you had equal numbers of boys and girls asking each other out then you’d see more equal numbers of boys and girls being called creeps.

    It would be closer to parity, but I doubt that alone would equalize things. Women less often directly pursue men because, in relationships (and other social areas, but with greater subcultural variance), non-beta personalities in women are not typically encouraged by family, community and society. So yes, if the numbers hovered around equal direct pursuit, creeping would probably be more equally common among women, but that would imply a wider cultural shift in which a woman was more likely to succeed in directly pursuing dates and mates. As it stands, there is nothing inherent about women that preclude them from creeping, but the court of public opinion is less forgiving of women who do creep, making it a socially riskier behavior for them to indulge.

    There isn’t a set way to ask someone out. It differs from person to person. So when a boy asks girls out, he is going to make a mistake sooner or later and be called a creep because of it. This is especially difficult for those who less socially gifted or less good looking because they are more likely to be called creeps for doing the same things that a more socially gifted or better looking boy would do.

    That may all be true, but it doesn’t change the fact that when someone is creeped out by you, none of your permissible options include forcing them to interact with you to change their mind. Which is why the sensible thing to do is to improve the likelihood you won’t accidentally creep them out

    Yes, people should try not to make other people uncomfortable (less socially gifted people often go to great lengths not to offend people by doing things that more socially gifted people would easily get away with), but we shouldn’t act like they are purposefully making these mistakes.

    Some creeps creep intentionally, other do not. But since no one has suggested that all people who creep others out do so avoidably, I’m not sure where you’re coming from other than what seems to be your blatantly wrong assertion that no creeps are actually bad people. This is so laughable that I’m guessing that’s not actually what you meant to say.

    They are trying to learn to get better just like everyone else. It doesn’t make them bad people.

    Again, you’re tilting at windmills. No one has said that inadvertent creepers are bad people, only that it’s neither their prerogative not withint their power to decide what others think of them, and that trying to correct misperceptions of them when the effort is unwelcome is counterproductive.

    The entire purpose of the original post was to offer advice to help socially awkward people not inadvertently creep people out in the first place, which is precisely what you advocate. But yes, sometimes you will fail because other people are not infallible either and may well misjudge you and decide to have nothing to do with you. In which case you’re only permissible option is to move on from interacting with them. You cannot control how everyone in the world judges you, and trying to do otherwise is a fool’s errand.

    @ John

    Plenty of women do that to me. They say smile! and its odd and puts me on the spot. Makes me not particularly like the person,s o while fingerpointing and name-calling is nice. everyone does it, not just men.

    The best thing about ‘smile’ jerks and jerketts is that they are so very easy to frustrate by looking at them as one might look at a particularly fascinating animal, neither smiling not frowning, but unmistakably condescending. Because it’s not merely about dominance, but condescension, and beating them at their own game is a small sweet victory every time. Not saying this solves the problem; just saying it beats giving them the satisfaction of feeling superior because they got your goat (wow is that a strange turn of phrase).

    @ Avril Korman

    It amazes me, really, that in any situation where you have a negative behavior, and that behavior is generated at a rate of 95% from men to women, and 5% from women to men, the immediate argument is “Well, women do it too, and so it isn’t really men doing it! What about the men who have this happen to them! You can’t say this is something just men do!”. It of course is designed to utterly ignore the 95% of the time when in fact it IS men doing that thing at the expense of women, and to dismiss their legitimate concerns.

    I don’t disagree with you observation. I only want to add that ignoring boundaries is unacceptable behavior not because it is unacceptable with regards to men or women in particular, but because it is unacceptable in regards to any person, regardless of gender.

  572. Gulliver: Oooh, good idea about the condescending look. It’s almost enough to make me wish I were still working retail, to try it on a certain “are we having fun yet” guy. (While I’m running around checking for duplicates of the books he’s selling.) Power dynamics being what they are, I might not pull it off, but it could be fun to try.

  573. @ Avril Korman: Exactly! Thank you for stating the truth: “It of course is designed to utterly ignore the 95% of the time when in fact it IS men doing that thing at the expense of women, and to dismiss their legitimate concerns.”

    These misogynist MRA guys can whine, “Well, some women do this, too” all they want; it’s primarily men (obviously very disturbed) who are the creeper/stalkers.

    As an admittedly very shy lady, I have experienced all-too-frequent unwanted and repeated attention from guys who are creeper/stalker types, and this is a very scary and threatening situation. I am just now learning to be assertive in order to put a stop to this creepy behavior.

    Recently, I’ve experienced creeper behavior on and off for the past year from some guy who won’t take “no” for an answer; he has admitted that he has mental health problems (rather severe) for which he’s on medication, but he doesn’t want to accept personal responsibility for his unwanted pursuit. He’s stalked me both in person and online, despite his recent assertion that he has promised to desist.

    ***To those guys who are creeper/stalkers: Stalking is literally a CRIME. It is illegal to
    willfully follow or harass another person. You could very likely get arrested. There is a place for you creeper/stalkers: it’s called JAIL.

  574. ***Also: To any women who feel they are in imminent danger from a creeper or a stalker, whether or not it relates to domestic violence or spousal abuse; here is the website for the U.S. National Domestic Violence hotline: http://www.thehotline.org/

    Don’t feel embarrassed about contacting this hotline; they can protect you and your children.

  575. Essentially it’s best if men simply don’t approach us at all unless specifically invited. There’re obvious exceptions, like if it’s their job or our job to interact but it should be kept strictly professional and business only. Otherwise, sorry boys, it’s never okay for you to approach us, speak to us, or compliment us. John’s right about the arm’s length difference. On top of that if we are pushed together by circumstances we might say “Hi” or “Hello” but it’s only courtesy, not an invitation for you to speak to us. A polite reply is fine, but beyond that if we want to speak to you we’ll direct the conversation. Keep your eyes down too, looking us in the eye before we initiate a conversation is a form of intimidation, and of course don’t look at our bodies. It’s never OK to compliment us, ask us personal questions, or discuss our looks. If we do speak to you, it’s not OK to ask us out or ask how to contact us again. We’ll let you know if we want to speak to you again. Assuming we do it’s still not OK to compliment us, talk about our bodies or how we look, or ask us out. If we like you and we let you know and we start seeing each other, it’s never OK to ask us for sex. If we’re interested we’ll tell you.

    It’s sad that it has to be this way. Most of you don’t mean any harm, but just because you don’t mean it doesn’t mean you aren’t doing it. And let’s face it a lot of you are predators, and we have to treat you as threats. The overwhelming male dominance in this patriarchal culture means you exist in a constant “power over” structure. It’s not just your male privilege, it’s something that always puts you in a position where merely your presence creates an imbalance of power that’s intimidating for us. The only way to redress this is for you to leave – us- alone. Period. This is the ultimate expression of “yes means yes.” If you are not specifically invited, without any kind of prompting or solicitation from you, to interact with us it’s just not OK. This doesn’t just go for cons, it goes for life. Leave us alone. We’ll let you know if it’s OK, and if we don’t let you know you need to learn to assume it’s not. John says, correctly, in point 2 that you’re not allowed to define someone else’s comfort level. The only way to avoid running in to an issue with that is to always operate from the assumption that their level is uncomfortable. When men can learn this we’ll be a small step closer to addressing oppressive rape culture and imbalance in the space between men and women. Interaction must not exist unless it’s on our terms.

  576. BW, it’s hardly a “troll idea.” You’ll see more and more of us expressing it because it’s true. Your patronizing dismissal of the concept of men showing this level of respect for our feelings and consent is insulting. See points 2 and, to a lesser extent, 3 above. It’s the best way for men to be sure, and the only way for many of us who’ve been victims to feel safe.

  577. Well damn. Now I’m going to have to go find out what the heck happened to spark this discussion. I’ve been off the grid for a while.

    It’s really hard for me to understand men who don’t understand these concepts. I’m not saying my strategy is the correct one, but I assume from the get-go that people will think I am creepy. I wait for some evidence that they don’t think I’m creeping before I interact with anybody in any non-superficial way. I’m actually pretty frickin’ awesome, but I don’t assume for a second that anybody who does not already know me very well realizes that fact.

    Unfortunately, this has some drawbacks. I think there is a risk that some people will assume that I am standoffish or snobbish. It also makes going to a con where I don’t know anybody really painful and awkward. I saw John at a small con earlier this summer, and even though he had invited blog readers to come up to him & say hi, I never felt like there was a moment where that would have been appropriate.

    Finally, as an addendum to #3, I think it is everybody’s obligation to actively ignore, avoid, and shut out people that they have a level of discomfort with. I think we need to treat each other with respect, but we need to stop respecting other people’s feelings more than our own.

  578. I’m guilty of some of that, but then, I’m the female. I tend to be touchy-feely and I love making sexual inuendos. I’m Nanny Ogg without the magic.

    Luckily, I’m not guilty of not getting the hint to go the fuck away so people are very rarely threatened by me.

  579. This is really interesting, because these issues are ones kids with autism often have to deal with. It emphasizes the importance of quality social skills/theory of mind therapy for children with autism spectrum disorders, especially children who have good verbal skills and are “higher functioning”. These children do grow up, and we are really handicapping them if we don’t address these issues early on and all through their growing up and into young adulthood.

  580. Emily

    There has been a vast amount of discussion on the relevance/irrelevance of the autism spectrum in the posts above. I’m sure that you would find at least some of them interesting if you bothered to read them..

  581. Erika, calling it a troll idea is charitable. It’s a stupid idea. Also, it’s been said before, and people discussed it just as if it were a rational suggestion by a reasonable person. It is neither.

  582. My point was, that parents of kids on the autism spectrum, particularly of kids who are “higher functioning” need to be very much aware that behaviors that might have been okay when they were young and small are not going to be okay when they are adults (even teens) and are fully grown, and to take steps early to prevent their kids from “creeping” when they are grown.

  583. Xopher

    I think ‘stupid’ is an understatement, but I don’t think Erica actually believes this garbage she’s touting.

    It’s trolling, and no doubt Erika would feel at home with the VA mob, though of course she may well be part of the VA mob. It’s the sort of crap that they like to dump…

  584. Emily, I think you’re right. If you search the comments on the term “spectrum,” you might find some discussion of that point. Certainly, some parents did weigh in on the necessity of teaching their kids. Because in the end, the kids have to function in a mostly neurotypical world. It doesn’t do them any favors in the long run not to prepare them for the adult world. Same for non-spectrum kids, of course. Adults with entitlement attitudes were generally not taught as kids that the world doesn’t owe them anything.

  585. Emily

    It’s 2.17 am here in England so forgive me the brevity of this response; the self-justifying claim that creepers aren’t really creepers because they are autistic is profoundly offensive to all those on the spectrum who make huge efforts to live in a neurotypical world. They may not always get it right but in my view we should honour those who are doing their best.

    Rene Walling is not autistic. He’s someone with a history of sexual harassment extending over many years, and the whole ‘he’s got Aspies’ was a desperate attempt to try to excuse him. The fact that this gambit was a dreadful slur on people who are genuinely neuro atypical appears not to have bothered the people making it…

  586. Stevie, you mean the VD mob? I wouldn’t be at all surprised. Note that I said the IDEA was stupid. I think you’re right that “Erika” is a troll, and probably one of that infectious disease’s gang.

  587. John;
    I’m sorry I missed this conversation and the following one. They were most excellent.
    I was recently reading some Shakesville, and stumbled upon a link to the Schrodinger’s Rapist thread (on KateHarding.net) from 2009.

    As a cis, hetro women chalk full of privilege, and generally unafraid to go out alone, I found it fascinating, and even after having read “The Gift of Fear,” I learned a significant amount about how and why I often feel uncomfortable with strange men, and also who has the responsibility to do what in those situations.

    If you haven’t read it (the comment thread is EPIC, even by Whatever standards), it’s well worth the time, and a great recommendation for others.

  588. Scalzi, what the shit is with #2? So now you’re a potential creep for speaking to someone? I don’t believe that reality is that plastic. I just took a dump, which was not creepy. Anyone who says otherwise is not “expressing an alternative opinion”, they’re just wrong. Now, obviously there’s room for differing interpretations to a certain extent, but “he’s a creep” is not within the penumbra of “reasonable opinion” on someone who gets in your line of sight for a few seconds.

  589. MRAL, I concur that reality is not that plastic, but I think you missed John’s point. I would agree that the person thinking that another person is creepy is quite possibly wrong. The point is that neither you nor I have the right to tell another person that their feelings are incorrect/inaccurate/illegitimate. Feelings are feelings. If somebody doesn’t like you, it’s pointless and pathetic to attempt to change that person’s mind.

    It may come to pass that due to your indirect actions, words, and deeds the “wrong” feeling is “corrected”, but direct argumentation as attempt to “correct” somebody’s feeling is just stupid.

  590. Joshua, MRAL isn’t here to join the discussion. If he were, he’d have read the thread and seen the extensive discussion of #2, which answers his objections entirely, instead of making cracks (see what I did there) about his own #2 (see what I did there again).

  591. Okay, fuck, I’m about zonked out on my sleeping pills and I can’t concentrate. I did read the comments, and I remain unsatisfied. It’s not that I disagree with Scalzi’s post, I mean I think it’s fine. This is quibbling. I’ll post tomorrow, I guess.

  592. Xopher Halftongue , re: “Erika, calling it a troll idea is charitable. It’s a stupid idea. Also, it’s been said before, and people discussed it just as if it were a rational suggestion by a reasonable person. It is neither.”

    It’s my understanding that trolling is putting something out just to stir the pot. I’m proposing something seriously, something a number of other people are bringing up in a lot of places as responses to this sort of thing. I first saw it proposed after Dawkin’s attack on Rebecca Watson last year, and the calls have only gotten louder as more of these incidents have come to light. Many of us in various communities (atheist, fandom, etc) are truly tired of it. You talk about me trolling and say you’re being charitable but then call my idea stupid and say I can’t be rational or reasonable. You’re doing the classic male behavior of gaslighting a woman you disagree with, as described here: http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/

    You may disagree with what I say. You may even think it’s stupid. But to imply I can’t even be rational or reasonable and discuss it is offensively vile and patronizing. Saying I’m not reasonable for suggesting an (admittedly extreme but sadly necessary) way to end a lot of suffering women are put through is, well, not reasonable. Your privilege and contempt for women are showing.

    I have no idea what the VA or VD mobs you and Stevie mentioned are. As I said, I came to this whole thing via similar issues in the atheist community and haven’t taken part in any fandom discussions until now, so apparently I am missing something. However, in reading a number of blogs & LJ posts about this affair it’s clear I am not the only one who feels this way, and the more this happens the more you’re going to hear it. Please, as our chorus grows keep telling us we’re all stupid, irrational, unreasonable women who’re just trolling. Somehow I don’t think it will achieve your desired result of shutting up up so you can go back to being a patronizing man who knows when we women need to stop talking.

  593. Erika

    I’m a woman.

    Had you bothered to read the posts you would know that.

    Parachuting in with troll stuff which has already been put through the grinder ad nauseam also proves that you haven’t read the posts.

    If you can’t be bothered to read the posts then don’t expect people to take you seriously.

    And for your information, there are a lot of women who regularly post here because Scalzi makes a great deal of effort to tackle misogyny. Your attempt to portray yourself as a proud feminist being rejected on the grounds of your feminism is farcical.

    As you would know if you’d bothered to read the posts…

  594. Erika –

    “But to imply I can’t even be rational or reasonable and discuss it is offensively vile and patronizing. ”

    Your proposition was a declarative that expressly forbade discourse as none was requested. So, an add on to an old thread, not looking for discussion and taking an admittedly extreme stance: why is it surprising that this was called out as trolling?

    As they’re your words, I’ll defer to your intent – but that is how they read…to me, at the least.

  595. MRAL’s a regular troll over at Manboobz.

    @Erika: The faux outrage is not really any more convincing than the “but I just want to present this totally rational modest proposal!”

  596. You know, the fact that the thread has reset (i.e., new people clearly not reading the rest of the thread dropping in to repeat arguments long since hashed out), is 670+ comments long and the page is beginning to be slow to load is a cue for me to go ahead and close it out. Thanks, everyone, for the comments.

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