The Existential Horror of Betaness

Posted on November 20, 2012    Posted by      601 Comments

Question from e-mail, relating to the “Notes on My Personal Feminism” post:

Wait, there are guys out there who think that calling you a beta male is going to insult you in some way?

Yes, apparently. I would note as a matter of clarification that I think they are less concerned about insulting me than they are reassuring themselves that there is no possible way they could ever be beta males, whatever their definition of ‘beta male’ is. By all indications their definition is something along the lines of “a man who sees women as something other than a mute dispensary of sandwiches and boobies” and/or “a man who does not live in fear of everyone else not continually affirming his internal assessment of personal status,” gussied up in language that allows them not to have to deal with these essential facts of their own nature. But inasmuch as insulting me is part of the mechanism of reassuring themselves, I am offered the insult.

I’m not insulted because, a) I consider the source, b) I don’t mind being seen as someone who does not view women through a tangled bramble of fear, ignorance and desire, c) when I step into a room, I don’t neurotically spend my time tallying up who in the room has higher status than I do, and who doesn’t. I am a grown-up, for God’s sake. Paranoid status anxiety is tiring. Also, you know. I’m pretty happy with my life and who I am, which makes me rather less vulnerable to the presumed snipings of others, particularly those who don’t have any notable participation in my life. Yes, yes, I’m a beta male, the worst of all possible males. Fine. Moving along.

Bear in mind that none of this either here nor there about the fundamental correctness of describing people as “betas” and “alphas” or whatever. This is partially because from an ethological point of view these terms are being used stupidly anyway, and why argue from the basis of stupid. But it’s also partially because I don’t actually care. Again, none of this burbling about betas has an impact on my life; I’m going to do what I do regardless.

And again, this isn’t much about me, anyway, it’s about the dudes trying to insult me. As Mur Lafferty recently noted, “people who insult you are giving you a blueprint as to what makes them insecure.” We know what these dudes fear.

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601 Comments on “The Existential Horror of Betaness”

  1. I agree John, the whole “Aplha” male thing is kinda weird when applied to humans. I guess some guys just have to feel superior for some reason, and insulting others is their way of doing it. That just proves they aren’t the alpha.

  2. I think this analysis is pretty spot-on. I’ve heard it said somewhere that “if you have to proclaim that you’re an alpha male or that others are beta males… then you’re not an alpha male”. Alpha males (if such a thing can be accurately said to exist) don’t seem to worry about being alphas. I think you’re more accurate though: grownup males don’t worry about being alpha males.

  3. . . . could have been summarized as “stick and stones . . . ” and ended with “I am rubber, you are glue . . . ”

    Could also be analyzed as . . . if one really does not care, one would not bother explaining why one does not care. But I understand; as a fellow Beta male, I too fall in the trap of wanting to tell all them Alphas just how insecure, backwards, and just plain . . . uncouth they show themselves to be.

    Responding is not driven so much by wanting to insult them, but to help them realize what lesser beings they truly are.

  4. But, I AM an alpha male. That is, when I deal with my dogs and my cats, I take that role. Is there some human interaction where that’s appropriate? I must be missing something in the human dynamic.

  5. Uh oh – can we expect a VD outbreak? Why do I suddenly want popcorn?

    More seriously, I don’t get it either. Based on some earlier discussion about alpha and beta males, I unfortunately did a Google search. Underlying everything I read seemed to be a seething hatred of women and the fact that women don’t put out in the way they want, don’t act they way they want and differentiate themselves from properly married sandwich making blow up dolls. Truly a slimy experience.

  7. About to head to sleep, so I’m going to go lazyweb on your arses and suggest you all just google ‘alpha wolf parent’, because that’s what the latest recent research shows: in the wild each pack’s alphas are indeed the breeding pair and are the parents of the rest of the pack. The offspring wolves eventually grow up and find partners of their own and become the alphas of their own familial pack. It’s a pack status which can only be obtained by coparenting, and which is all about socialising the youngsters into the cooperative pack life which will best ensure their survival to become alphas themselves in due time.

    None of that is quite what the people who brag about being alpha wolves are fantasising of, methinks.

  8. Actually, if they really wanted to insult you, they should call you the “omega human” which would be the lowest ranked individual who is dominated by everyone. Never mind, of course, that such a ranking only really works on chickens and the like… I’m an archaeologist who analyzes non-human animal bone and in order to interpret a site accurately, you have to know something about animal behavior (among other things). What most people who are not behavioralists don’t seem to realize is that the whole dominance hierarchy thing is much more fluid and situational than they think for most species of animals, including the human ones.

  9. In general, if you’re a member of a dominant group, or group that holds a disproportionate amount of political and capitalistic power, and sart talking about the inequalities as if they might not be the best thing since sliced things, members of your group are going to try to insult you. It’s a (usually) subconscious thing that the group has *trained* them to do.

    Dominant groups set up self perpetuating power structures, and the scorn John gets is part of that. it’s not necessarily to bring him back into line, it’s a threat to any members-in-good-standing that they have this as a fate if they side with people like John, and it also encourages group participation to re-enforce the desire to not question the dominant group.

    In a sense, the self proclaimed alpha males have been brainwashed by the dominant group. They think alpha-hood is the best they can be, and they think beta-hood is a horrible thing. It’s like calling a man gay as an insult. If he’s gay, and OK with himself, it’s just a description. If he’s not, and was brainwashed by the alpha culture, he’s been told that being gay is disgusting and horrible. And that sort of cultural antagonism is there to perpetuate the alpha standard. It’s there to make people who follow the alpha rules get instant benefits.

    So, in a sense, the alpha/beta divide might have an effect on most people’s lives. It does not on John’s because he’s managed to create a life that does not depend on alpha standards to give rewards. Ever see a room of stockbrokers? They’re mostly of a type – alpha standard. Tallish, male, buzz cuts, very assertive, and so on. Alpha standard types. If you’re not a type like that, you won’t fit in, you won’t get rewards, and you won’t be a really successful stockbroker unless you’re vastly better at it than they are. But an average stockbroker can get ahead just by being more alpha than the rest because they reward being a certain sort of look, act, and talk just for it’s own sake.

    Those groups will always remain closed to non-alphas until something changes to disrupt the power and status of the group its self. John’s group (sci-fi geeks/authors) has not really held to the alpha pattern to begin with.

  10. If they call him “the omega human” doesn’t that mean he has to live in a fortress surrounded by spotlights to keep the vampires out?

    (One thing I liked in that movie was the anti-tech vampires keeping to their principles and eschewing guns et al.)

  11. What I find most entertaining is that the alpha/beta thing isn’t a dichotomy. In the hierarchy of a wolf pack, the beta is the *second in command.* Bonelady is spot on.

    I used to have to explain this all the time since I own the domain betawolf.com. Being beta doesn’t mean what they think it means.

  12. Building on the software use of beta developed in the previous thread, stay gold Scalziboy!

  13. John, it’s not a matter of insulting you, and it’s not a matter of what we “fear”. The fact is that knee-jerk loyalty to feminism among “beta” males (and there is a technical definition to that term, btw — a little research wouldn’t kill you) is one of the issues contributing to the decline of men in our society. You may not see it as a “decline”, since your loyalty is, quite obviously, to feminism, which has long ago moved away from being a true ideal of equality (scholars call that “humanism”) and has now become an ideology of female exceptionalism that actively works against men and male interests.

    Ah! But men don’t have interests, you say. Except ensuring that females are happy. That is, after all, what feminism has conditioned you to work for. If feminism was truly an ideal toward gender equality, it would be ferverishly working to include our daughters in Selective Service as a point of moral equality. Instead it works to “equalize” our schools so that boys are handicapped and punished for being, essentially, boys, while girls are given advantages to make up for supposed institutional inequities that haven’t been valid since 1970. Look back at the last 40 years with Beta blinders on if you will, but the fundamental fact is that feminism has been no friend to men. Feminism has helped push a 50% divorce rate and made it easier in our society for a woman to end her marriage than to work on it.

    Take an honest look at the world our daughters will inherit — while their dreams of corporate dominance may come true, while they’re taking the professional world by storm our sons sit dejected on the sidelines, utterly dis-incentivized. There are a lot of reasons for this, but feminism bears a lion’s share of the responsibility, and until it is able to take responsibility for what it has done, then you can count on discovering more and more male resistance and antipathy to it as both an ideology and a political construct. There is an evolving movement to revalorize masculinity for the 21st century happening, and while it is indeed largely in response to feminism, it is no less vital or important to how masculinity is defined henceforth than the 1960s feminist theorists’ work were to the evolution of feminism. Bash the Manosphere all you want, but at least we’re talking about serious stuff over there, not how outrageous it is that someone called someone else a name.

    Stuffs going on, Scalzi, and if you can’t take an objective look at the facts and recognize that men are in trouble, then you aren’t looking very hard. Perhaps it’s because you have a daughter and don’t have boys (to my knowledge), but there is some seriously heinous stuff going on in the gender world, and feminists and women are not the lily-white emblems of purity you make them out to be. They either take responsibility for what they have done LIKE ADULTS, or men start looking out exclusively for male interests, as feminism does with female interests. That’s the deal.

    And no, you’re not a feminist — feminists won’t let you be a feminist, and that should tell you something. What you are is a feminist apologist, and yes, that does make you a “white knight”. If you could take half of the ire you shed on your own gender and look at the other, perhaps you’d understand better. I doubt you will want to endanger the political position you have staked out, however, as you have invested heavily in this “valiant defender of helpless women” meme, and suddenly realizing that having a penis means something more, politically, than merely being an evil rapacious oppressor would endanger that.

    But we’re not afraid. That’s the point. Feminism has tried to make men afraid for forty years, now, afraid of the threat of divorce, the threat of false rape accusations, the threat of institutionalized punishment for male achievement, and the threat of public humiliation and rejection. There are even feminists who want the genocidal elimination of males from the human race — these are the people you’re standing with, John. No one over at the Manosphere is advocating for all women to be eliminated. But the “sweetness and light” feminists you defend so ardently are considering ways to make your gender obsolete . . . so tell me again why you think they’re swell?.

    We’re done being afraid now. Feminism wanted an open debate on the state of the genders in regards to its unilateral redefinition of femininity, and now its getting it. Good and hard. Either it can hang as a political philosophy by making room for the realities of masculinity, taking responsibility for what it has done, and adjusting itself accordingly or it can suffer the incredible decline in popularity and intellectual vigor it has hit in the last decade as men — and women — start understanding that feminism as it stands is harmful, hateful, and barbaric ideology that does not ultimately have the best interests of either gender in mind. We’re done being afraid. Now we’re just pissed off.

    And quit obsessing over being a Beta. We need Betas. Someone has to do the administrative work and such while the Alphas do the heavy lifting. There’s no shame in being a Beta at all. Besides, according to the Vox Day SocioSexual Hierarchy, you’re a Delta. Much different thing.

  15. As Brian Williams said, “well, that happened.” There’s so much fear of women in that screed above, it’s actually sad. I sense, if not a Malleting, a nice concise put-down in the offing.

  16. I’m going to leave it there as a cogent example of exactly what I wrote about, actually. It’s pretty much perfect. Although I don’t suggest others engage with it.

  18. At what point does Ian Ironwood simply slip over into self-parody? Whatever the line is, I think he’s already crossed it.

  19. But note you didn’t address a single one of my arguments, which I put forth rationally and reasonably without name-calling. I think that’s pretty telling, John.

  20. John, despite what IanIronwood says, you can come and sit on my feminist bench any time you want. I can’t speak for other feminists, but the feminist bench I choose to sit down on is broad and comfortable, and has room for lots of different kinds of people. I will not dignify the rest of his vague and ignorant statements with a response.

  21. Irony alert: Ian Ironwood chides Scalzi for obsession in a paragraph that mentions Vox Day.

    Personally, I’d rather live by Scalzi’s values than Ironwood’s. If that makes me a “beta,” so be it. I’m happy; my lovely wife is happy, and my daughters are happy. And if I had sons, they wouldn’t be “disincentivized” by the notion that a woman is their equal. What kind of weakling fears that?

  23. Ian Ironwood:

    “But note you didn’t address a single one of my arguments”

    Sure I did, when I noted they were stupid and sexist. That’s the whole of what your “arguments” rated. I thought that was obvious. Concision is our friend.

    (It’s not namecalling to label your writing stupid and sexist, incidentally; another thing you’ve gotten wrong.)

  24. I thought the whole point of having intelligence, reason, etc. was that we were able to give evolution the finger and tell our animal/pack instincts to get bent? Nature creates claws and teeth, we create the 50 caliber machine gun. Screw you, nature.

  25. There certainly many horror stories of divorce, but that is actually not because of feminism, it’s because of the alpha males and stereotypes that predominated and the MRAs are still promoting. If the man is the boss, the breadwinner, etc, then naturally in a divorce, he still gets the responsiblity of taking care of the family, without the rewards. That’s what the provider does.

    And when some Tennessee legislators tried to get a law passed saying men should not have to pay child support if a paternity test proved the child wasn’t his, who killed it? Was it the feminists? No. It was the conservative, rightwing men. The “alpha males” are the ones who are enemies of men, not most feminists.

    Of course there are feminists who live up to the stereotypes, just like there are men who act like cavement. But the true men’s rights activists are also feminists, fighting for equal treatment.

  29. @ianironwood
    I can see you’re a troll, but honestly, that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all week. Thanks for the laugh.

  32. I am laughing so hard at this right now.

    In other news, “Stuff’s Going On” is the name of my Bachmann Turner Overdrive cover band

  33. Didn’t the creator of the alpha male concept — Schenkel? — disavow his own theory ages ago?

  34. Bash the Manosphere all you want

    It’s soft and pliable, and makes a fun noise when you hit it! A lawn game the whole family can enjoy. Based on the identity-anxiety issues from The Prisoner, but with the point safely removed for today’s insecure beta males.

  35. What really amazes me is that I think Ian Ironwood believes he’s making decisive points instead of tossing out generalized and unsupported claims. Not even a single example in that entire screed. There are no arguments, just vague claims that boil down to, “The universe doesn’t revolve around me anymore.”

  36. Oi! Don’t drag The Prisoner into this, you. Or I shall be forced throw my glove at your feet and challenge you to a… well, I’ll probably just grumble a lot and go off-topic.

  38. “Alpha Male” could be the name of a bad sitcom based on the writings of James Thurber, with a Walter Mitty-ish character wailing futilely at the world that won’t let him run things.

  39. Hurrah! For I am Woman (hear me roar! RARRR!) and I have found an enclave of beta males!

    As I am a beneficent Feminist, and we all known beta males are none to bright, or they would realise they should work to remedy their status, I am prepared to offer photographic proof of my femaleness (passport-style only, no boobies, because you betas have not yet earned the boobies!), where upon I expect sandwiches to be made to my specification. Because I live so very far away from so many of you, I am prepared to accept vouchers to (good!) sandwich places, or lunch money.

    I will not deny my heart has greatly desired this. In place of a dark lord you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn, treacherous as the sea, stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!

    … Oh, hang on a minute. I’ve just been reading some of the other comments, and it suggests that you don’t think that’s what Feminism is about: servility and monetary tribute (you) and fifth-column-from-Hel ranting (me). That maybe it’s more about not treating me like chattel (any more — let’s not forget that marital rape probably wasn’t a crime where you’re living when you were born, and hey, maybe still isn’t), and maybe seeing about getting equal pay for equal work, and you know, a couple of other perks.

    Come to think of it, that does sound better than sandwiches.

  41. I think it boils down to, “MY PRIVILEGE!! YOU ARE TAKING IT AWAY!!!” And then they curl up in the fetal position and cry.

    (Also, with the amount of time I spend on Whatever’s comment threads, you’d think I’d have learned how to spell “privilege” by now. *sigh*)

  42. I am a feminist as well and John you and your family are welcome to party with my feminist ideals anytime you are in MN. Also, Ironwood, I own some Malamute dogs which are pretty close to wolves in behavior. These poor Alpha obsessed guys don’t quite get what an Alpha wolf really means. Alpha means that they are in charge but also protective. My 140+ pound dogs will let my kids climb all over them and we had to stop the kids from riding them. In fact they will play with any kid happily for hours. The only aggression that they exhibit is when another dog tries to get bossy (little dogs with Napoleon complexes) or when they get some weird signal from a grownup around “their” kids. The way a biologist friend stated it, was that a real alpha loves his pack and they love him. Alphas do NOT obsess over who is more alpha; they just have a stronger need to protect.

  44. I keep hearing about these ‘beta male’ accusations. I’ve never actually seen one in action… until now.

    ianironwood: Take an honest look at the world our daughters will inherit — while their dreams of corporate dominance may come true, while they’re taking the professional world by storm our sons sit dejected on the sidelines, utterly dis-incentivized

    So, these guys who go around shouting “Beta Male!” at other men, they’re basically gender armageddon survivalists??? Sexist doomsday preppers??? Battle of the sexes freedom fighter Wolverines???

    That’s… interesting.

  45. “a mute dispensary of sandwiches and boobies” is the name of the first album of my mope-rock band.

  46. Ian,
    Wow. Just wow. I have to say congratulations on both leaving me speechless and with the need to respond to your nauseating drivel all at the same time. But I will take a cue from our host and leave it at that.
    John,
    In answer to the numerous comments concerning which greek letter apparently defines your maleness, I agree with your initial assessment that you are in fact an adult and do not have to prove anything to anyone in any room. My only disagreement would come from the fact that it does not bother you at all, and I think that it should (at least maybe a little). The idea that as a human being I could be defined by simplistic, incomplete and ignorant comparisons to animals is insulting, because it implies a desire for me to sink to the comparer’s own level of stupidity. It’s all well and good to try to remain above the stupids, but maybe, just maybe, we can help pull the stupids back into humanity.
    It is a dream I have.

  47. @MNiM – maybe you just haven’t had the right sandwich yet.

    Personally, I am stepping on the throat of one beta with my stiletto, dictating minutes to another, plotting the demise of several alphas, all while disincentivising their boy-children from success (I’m teaching them needlepoint and stenography).

    What are all you other feminists doing? Step up, bitches.

  48. Brian:

    Some dudes prefer to wallow in stupid, and they are grown and set in their ways, and there are only so many hours in a day. Which is not to say that if someone else wants to try to redeem them, they shouldn’t make a go of it. Just that I don’t see it as my mission.

  49. @Greg: it’s like that battle scene in Braveheart – “but they’ll never take our FRREEEDOOOMM!” But with less kilts (skirts are girly) and more sexism.

  52. what do gender armageddon survivalists stock up on?

    rogaine, viagra, toilet paper, and motorcycles?

    There’s an entire world here I never knew existed.

  55. Just ONE little thing, Ian. ONE little thing you might be able to grasp:

    “Ah! But men don’t have interests, you say. Except ensuring that females are happy.”

    No.

  56. John said: “I’m not insulted because, a) I consider the source, b) I don’t mind being seen as someone who does not view women through a tangled bramble of fear, ignorance and desire, c) when I step into a room, I don’t neurotically spend my time tallying up who in the room has higher status than I do, and who doesn’t. ”

    In my book, this is the exact definition of a human alpha male. Alphas know their place in the world and are comfortable there. They don’t give two shits about the status of anyone else nor are they threatened by somebody with a higher status.

    Anyone who spends so much time worrying about somebody overthrowing their power base or “challenging” their right to be at the top is not a true alpha. They’re merely pretending to be and their greatest fear is that somebody will find them out as the frauds they are. Which, the ironic (and sad) thing is, if they’d only let go of that fear, they’d be that much closer to becoming a true alpha.

  57. My last comment here for today — and I’m glad y’all are being so entertained — because I’ve got to get back to the book. I’ll point out two things:

    “Stupid” and “Sexist” comments are evil here . . . unless they’re about men. Then they’re fine. That’s the kind of equality feminism has given you. Enjoy it. But also know that every time John lets loose his spleen on the Manosphere, our numbers go up . . . and stay up. I’ve had dozens of men come across your posts and end up at my blog because they agree more with me than with you — or at least want to have an intelligent discussion about how perhaps feminism isn’t the social utopia it’s made out to be. Instead of trying to make themselves feel better about what kind of “superior” men they are because they love feminism so much, they’re taking an objective look at the way men are treated in our society as men and discovering that being held in societal contempt and being seen as culturally expendable — “redshirts”, as it were — maybe isn’t in their best interest. Much the same way that being pigeonholed as wife and mother wasn’t in women’s best interest.

    Secondly, I can’t help but wonder why, when you claim that this doesn’t bother you at all, you’ve devoted two consecutive posts to it. I mean, if someone calls me a name — and your readers seem generous with them — I ignore it, I don’t go all bloggy about it. If you really did “consider the source” then you would have walked past with quiet dignity. Instead you’re wallowing in it, shoving your feminist street cred under everyone’s nose and calling attention to it — and the bad names you’re being called — seemingly as a means of gaining affirmation and acceptance. When will you feel secure enough with your masculinity to leave this alone? I mean, dude, we know where you stand. It’s a point of history now. These posts seem nothing more than an attempt to gin up support for the idea that you aren’t aligned with the Manosphere. Don’t worry, NO ONE would mistake you for an advocate of masculinity or men’s rights. You’re safe.

    Back to the book. Some of us write for a living.

  58. Reading through this my only thought (aside from how thoroughly John hit this particular nail on the head) was to wonder if the Manosphere abuts the Nightosphere, which means I’ve let my son watch far too much Adventure Time.

  59. Every time I see the term “beta male”, I think of those pretty fish with the flowing tails and fins. Unfortunately, the male fish can only live alone or in a REALLY big tank, because otherwise they will rip each other to shreds. I’m guessing that’s not what “beta male” refers to in this case…

  60. All I know, in Shadow Unit, betas are the ones with superpowers without the difficult to control mental illness that goes with them, while ‘alphas’ are the baseline humans. (Unfortunately, betas do get the large metabolism and attendant health risks of needing 6000+ calories a day.)

    (Also, as someone noted upthread, it turns out a lot of early studies of wolf behavior were flawed since they basically threw a bunch of unrelated wolves together and assumed that all wolf packs behaved like that, when naturally forming wolf packs tend to be parents who have offspring who linger for a couple of years to help care for their younger siblings before heading off to form their own families.)

  63. MANOSPHERE, WEEK SEVEN, DAY TWO

    We lost Chauncey today. Doc wanted to sedate him—he said the bond he’d formed with the womyn was too strong, and he feared for the poor man’s sanity. But the Chief said we needed the intel, and it was useful for a while. With Chauncey’s help we were able to avoid the patrols, keep to the shadows. We re-enforced our position by littering the floor with pages of Sports Illustrated—that seems to keep them away, especially the swimsuit issue. It was a shame to part with the swimsuit issue, but there’s no time for pleasantries. This is war.

    I knew Chauncey was gone when he reported hearing drum circles. Billy laughed—he didn’t understand. He said “all drums are circles, Chauncey” and looked confused when Doc told him to shut the hell up and show some respect. The Chief ordered us to put him out of his misery. I’m glad we did it when we did. He was just about to say “patriarchy.”

    God have mercy on us all. He was going to say patriarchy.

    On the other hand, Chauncey? What the hell kind of name is that, anyway? It’s not his fault, of course. He had to play the hand he was dealt. But you don’t have a chance in hell with a name like that.

    There aren’t many of us left. Twenty two, though I’m not sure about Billy. The thing is he’s young—he’s more susceptible than most. The other day he asked why it was so important to stand up when a lady walked into the room—the Chief knocked him on his ass for that one. I hope he learns from it.

    We’re running out of supplies. We’re down to three packs of cards, a box of cigars and two bottles of Scotch. We’re probably going to finish the Scotch first. I don’t know why we keep losing cards.

    We’re going to have to send someone out for supplies, but things are grim. Womyn are everywhere, and you can’t tell until they start talking. And if they detect you… well. Everywhere we go we see the skins of True Men pinned on the walls, left as bloody reminders to all the enslaved PoodleMen the consequences of having a set.

    Dan was the last guy we sent out. He didn’t return. We told him we has going to have to undercover—he’d at least have to take off the hat and maybe shave. He refused, that poor, magnificent, proud, stiff-necked fool. He said he’d die first.

    A few days later we found his hat, and the remains of that glorious, rich handlebar mustache. The Chief thinks they ate the rest.

    He’s calling another meeting now. I’ll write more when I can. If this be the final words of the last bastion of Men in this hellish, estrogen-ridden world, then know that we went out fighting to the last.

  65. Ian Ironwood:

    “I can’t help but wonder why, when you claim that this doesn’t bother you at all, you’ve devoted two consecutive posts to it.”

    “Consecutive” in this case meaning “two posts that are in fact not right next to each other because there’s another post in between them,” which is an interesting definition of “consecutive.” Although as a definition, it is about as accurate as your definition of “feminism,” so at least when you’re wrong, you’re wrong consistently.

    Also, you know. Just because it doesn’t bother me doesn’t mean I can’t point and laugh at it.

  66. *peeks at thread, chokes on tea with laughter*

    Well, there goes my productivity for the day. *Throws back arms and yells, James T. Kirk style* SCALZI!!!

  67. Quoting Dick Van Patton (or Kierkegaard), “Once you label me you negate me”.
    And I absolutely with Ian that having multiple posts on a subject obviously shows an insecurity concerning the subject, and is not simply an effort to clearly define positions and shed light on some disturbing trends in our culture.
    And “Get all bloggy with it” is the name of my next hit single.

  69. Hey, Ian. Feminism has a definition, it wouldn’t hurt you to look it up. It deals with equality, not superiority. So, given your thoughts, by that definition, you too are a feminist, yes? You want women to have equal rights and opportunities? What you object to is that men would take a back seat, a “beta” position (not what it means, precisely, but still), yes? Given that Mr. Scalzi also is for equality, not inferiority for either sex, why not just say that? Instead, you seem intent on deliberately misinterpreting his comments, or accusing him of actually lying about his intent.

  70. Brian:

    “And I absolutely with Ian that having multiple posts on a subject obviously shows an insecurity concerning the subject, and is not simply an effort to clearly define positions and shed light on some disturbing trends in our culture.”

    I admit it. Frequency of posts on a subject does suggest insecurity on that subject. Which means it is time for me to admit it:

    I AM VERY INSECURE ABOUT MY CATS.

    Oh, and sunsets.

    Fucking sunsets, man.

  71. Ohhhh, lovely – its tea-time here in foggy old London, and now I have something hilarious to read with my Earl Grey and lemon sugar feminist cookies.

  72. Alternatively, Brian, having multiple posts on a topic may show that there is interest in the topic, and posting a new entry is probably better than overloading an earlier comment thread with a tangential discussion.

    “Obviously” is one of those words silly people often use to suggest that their personal opinion trumps the opinions of other people.

  74. I wonder how much he’ll charge for The Book when he publishes it. (He strikes me as the sort who will make a big deal about how much smarter it is to self-publish … *after* he’s collected a stack of rejection slips.). I admit to being a little curious about whether the humor value is sustainable after a few paragraphs, but only a dollar or two worth of curious.

  75. I think we crossposted, John.

    In which case, well done, Brian, for mimicking the tone of silly people so well. And I agree about “Get all bloggy with it.”

  76. Oh Ian, I’m so glad I can always count on you when I feel like I haven’t had enough desperate sixth-grade rhetorical maneuvering in my life lately.

    John, nobody likes you and you should just go eat worms!

  77. John – we’re all insecure about our cats. “Are you sitting on my lap because you love me? Or because my body radiates heat?”

  79. @Bryan Broyles because if Ian is a believer in Vox Day’s principles, which his first post implies, he actually doesn’t believe in equality between the sexes. He believes strongly in a binary gender division, both in mind and action.

  84. @ John:

    I’m fairly sure that they *tolerate* me for the body heat. That and the whole opposable thumbs thing.

  85. I think I have worked it out.

    An Alpha male can be stopped by a thin sheet of paper or cloth, but it’s a bad idea to ingest them. Beta males require slightly thicker shielding but aren’t quite so ionising.

  86. @ Bearpaw et al – the can opening comes in handy, plus the squeeky noises we make when the cat’s claws extend must be amusing. I suppose we’ll live for now. How long, I can’t say.

  87. John:

    There’s nothing wrong with being insecure about your cats. I don’t know about you but some mornings I wake up and mine is RIGHT THERE just… staring at me, man, like she’s just waiting for… for what? I don’t know, man! I DON’T KNOW!! Sure, she seems satisified when I get up and put some kibble in the bowl, but what kind of entity just sits there staring like that? And when she sits staring at a completely blank place on the wall for an hour, WHAT DOES SHE SEE? Some Lovecraftian horror about to ooze forth from some non-euclidean hell-dimension, or, you know, tiny dust motes/

    Be insecure. Be VERY insecure.

  88. @ Ian Ironwood:

    How do I join the movement to revalorize masculinity? Is it a good place to meet chicks?

  90. Is ianironwood posting here anymore than for any other reason to remind us about his “forthcoming” book, which he mentions, repeatedly, every time he blathers? (And by ‘forthcoming’ he apparently means ‘book he hasn’t actually finished writing; I always thought ‘forthcoming’ meant ‘it’s working its way through the publication process right now, but perhaps more experienced published writers can correct me here.) Can’t the dude promote his books through Big Idea or a self-promotion/recommendations thread?

    Also, he actually trotted out Lurkers Support Me. Sigh. It’s enough to make a feminist briefly pause in her endless quest to enslave the male sex, I tell you.

  91. MANOSPHERE, WEEK NINE, DAY SIX:

    Had to put Butch down. He lost it completely last night. Poor bastard took his composite bow, dressed it in the frilly blouse and skirt we duct-taped to the dartboard. Then he started singing “Thank Heaven (For Little Girls),” and . . . danced with it. We knew he had crossed the Rubicon then. His eyes were all whites and he was sweating like a quarterhorse after the Preakness.

    I put the bullet in his head myself. He smiled when I put the gun to his temple, and he whispered, “Do it. Do it before it’s too late.” A tear slipped from his eye as I pulled the trigger. We turned away so as not to be infected by his weakness. Instead we burned his body and cooked venison steaks over the fire.

    We still don’t know how they got to him. There’s a hole in security somewhere. They got through the perimeter. They caught us with our pants down. We were weak. Weak and submissive. We bent over and took it where the sun don’t shine, and they got us. Another of our number lost to . . . them. I won’t dignify them by humanizing them, not even in these private notes. If I humanize them, they win. If I humanize them, I have to think of them as human. And that just leads to wearing frilly dresses and singing songs like a Frenchman.

    I won’t do that. I won’t give them my valor. My spirit. My essence. My precious bodily fluids are my own!

    All glory to the XY!

  92. “The decline of men.”

    “The decline of men”, he says. As if men are dropping like flies all over the world as women – those dreadful, powerful, evil, subtle and cunning women – lay siege to us as we cower pitifully in our ManCaves (TM).

    Ian, this kind of argument was stupid and vile when Hitler was making it about the Jews. It’s stupid and vile when the TalkingPointsMannequins on Faux Noize make it about brown people. You’re in good company. Perhaps your next manifesto should be titled “On The Women And Their Lies.”

  95. @mythago — and you forgot to capitalise the F, you poor thing. Perhaps you should take a break from the keyboard and take a nice tears-of-men bubble bath while listening to some castrati?

  97. As Mur Lafferty recently noted, “people who insult you are giving you a blueprint as to what makes them insecure.” We know what these dudes fear.

    Actually, recent research on bullying indicates more of a heightened sense of self than a lesser sense of self on the part of many bullies. I think it could be either or some of both, depending on the person. But it does make sense that someone would cut another down in order to maintain their own conceit. At least it does to this victim (and parent of a victim).

  98. John Scalzi: “Let’s not go down that avenue, please.”

    But it’s so broad, and welcoming, and inviting!

    Oh, okay. [kicks pebble]

    That said, I do wonder if that’s a birth name or a too-on-the-nose pseudonym.

  100. Here’s a sidetrack about the whole alpha-beta canine thing:

    Temple Grandin, in her book “Animals Make Us Human”, talks about wolf dominance behavior. She says ( I don’t have the citation but it’s in her chapter on dogs) that alpha/beta/omega behavior is unique to domesticated or captive wolves, which are usually the wolves observed in the most detail. Wild wolves have very different social systems. I believe she stated that they aren’t nearly as structured or dominance oriented.

    Make of that what you will- I thought it was pretty interesting when I read it, since I’d gotten so used to alpha/beta terminology.

  101. @Karina — you teach yours to read and write? That’s very brave of you. Aren’t you afraid that eventually one of them will write a book to our detriment? Or, perhaps, as books are hard, ranting blog posts? Or comments?

  102. Well, I’m more of a VHSman. But I’m leaving it behind. I’d just heard of this gadgets, watchucallit, laserdiscs. So I’m upgrading my entertaining system. I’ll let you all know how it works. ;)

  104. I don’t know where to start the glee, although I want to read more Christopher Wright, and I want Patrick Cleary in a bowl (I’ll keep the water fresh, honest!) because he’s so pretty. Also, “Bash the Manosphere” is the name of my next rock festival.

    I am also in danger of wasting far too much of my day pondering the potential definitions of all the other Greek letters. The mu male, for example, seems to have successfully integrated with a variety of disciplines, while the sigma male has high standards and the omicron male has a nomadic soul. The chi male possesses inner energy but apparently buckles under heavy loads, the xi male never changes its state (but will move from one city to another, I assume), and the rho male is optimized for a marine environment (or, possibly, is very good at setting up chairs in meeting rooms). The iota male seems to be much smaller than the omega male, but is not the ultimate answer to anything. The delta male clearly excels at change, and would make an excellent entrepreneur, cashier, or caretaker for infants.

    I could go on, but I’m supposed to be working.

  105. @Eric Saveau
    Perhaps your next manifesto should be titled “On The Women And Their Lies.”

    I was thinking he could go with, “Women, Can’t Live With ‘Em…AND IT’S ALL THEIR FAULT!!!”

  106. I think “Manosphere” could be the next “Atlanta Nights.” A grim, post-apocalyptic future where the remnants of Manmanity struggle to survive against the relentless Feminist hordes…

    It’ll make tens!

  107. Ah ha ha ha – I just looked up “delta male” in the urban dictionary. Apparantly our genial host is “the polar opposite of an alpha-male.. has a clear lack of regard for sexual protection and genital grooming… typically an immigrant to the US, settles for work that is below minimum-wage, below janitorial work, and can often be found on Craigslist whoring his services for meager wages” and something about a delta’s “women and children” that I won’t quote because dragging family into this would be gross.

    There are other definitions, but this was the most hilariously inapt. Includes so much race and sexism fail that my brain exploded and is tepid rice pudding. Way to attack a man by insulting his family.

  108. @MNiM: no time, I have to finish cataloging my severed-testicle collection by alphaness, name and duration of relationship. One simply can’t trust a male with such delicate work, can one?

  112. @Karina: The fact the defnition even includes a part about “genital grooming” is enough to make your head spin. And I thought “manscaping” was a hallmark of the metrosexual?

  113. @mythago — Oh, Great Goddess, no, of course not.

    (Though I must confess I did try it once, because, frankly, I lose all interest once the hunt is over; but their hands shook so much they dropped several, damaging them quite beyond repair. The whole lot ended up in the bin, and with all the jibbering and crying, I barely got any work out of them for the rest of the day. Lesson Learned.)

  117. @Beth: “I am also in danger of wasting far too much of my day pondering the potential definitions of all the other Greek letters. The mu male, for example, seems to have successfully integrated with a variety of disciplines, while the sigma male has high standards and the omicron male has a nomadic soul. The chi male possesses inner energy but apparently buckles under heavy loads, the xi male never changes its state (but will move from one city to another, I assume), and the rho male is optimized for a marine environment (or, possibly, is very good at setting up chairs in meeting rooms). The iota male seems to be much smaller than the omega male, but is not the ultimate answer to anything. The delta male clearly excels at change, and would make an excellent entrepreneur, cashier, or caretaker for infants.”

    I think it best if we stick with the generic, or “Φ” male, don’t you?

  118. John Scalzi: “Let’s not go down that avenue, please.”

    But it’s so broad, and welcoming, and inviting!

    I suspect it’s rather short and with narrow possibilities for satisfaction, actually.

    What’s really interesting about this beta male thing is that the first time I hear it used, about ten years ago, it was during a somewhat comedic monologue about male traits being used as an excuse to be mistreated by other men. It wasn’t something that had been taken on out of weakness, it was in that case someone talking about being interested in intellectual pursuits and maybe not being as physically big as other ‘alpha males’ who would use that as a reason to subjugate them.

    I guess in that description the ‘alphas’ would consider the ‘betas’ as being naturally inferior and deserving of their lot, by virtue of their inferior birth.

    So maybe it’s not such a different usage than others promoting it are choosing after all. It’s just a question of whether you’re on the shitty end of the stick being used to justify treating other people badly in order to make yourself feel better. I can see why it’s a philosophy that appeals to people who are against female equality.

  120. @mikes75 — I thought the phi male had a perfectly proportioned body! Darn. Maybe I should call up and change the specs on my next order.

  122. @Beth, I think your musing has a place in this novel! Clearly it is excellent dialogue for the Cold-Hearted Female Scientist (you know, the tall, angular blonde whose hair is in a severe bun, and who runs the horrible experiments on captive males), and who will either be unrepentant and killed by Mace Hunter, Manly Hero as he escapes, or whose heart will be melted by him (and she’ll still end up dead, but whatever).

    I’m not sure if the flu medication I’m taking right now is a plus or minus in developing this novel.

  124. mythago, she will help him escape (heart melted by his manly manliness), and then she will be killed by her female colleagues for it.

  126. @BW: oh goodness, you’re right. I don’t know how I missed that. Probably by the super-masculine-looking Head of Security who secretly wants to be a man and thus hates them.

  127. @mythago — is Mace Hunter the studly leader of Christopher Wright’s band of Manly Manospherians?

  128. @Karina — I admit that I have thought of it, from time to time. It would make things easier for me, after all. But I do worry that should I give such a gift to a particularly bright one, they might work to bring down the Femisnarky.

  130. There must be room in the book for a tau male, who is apparently capable of stopping time, and is also opaque to sunlight.

  131. “Fucking sunsets, man.”

    One of these days, it’s NOT COMING BACK. That’s why your photographic evidence that we once had a sun will be so valuable.

  133. Wait, I’m confused. Do the disconsolate and disincentivized sons who run most of the boardrooms and governments in the world get special juice boxes from the beta males to make them feel better or something?

  134. @Beth: Indeed he is. I think Stag Stopa plays the drums.

    @BW: right. No doubt she’s got a lieutenant who is a sexy, sexy femme who refuses at the last minute to pull the trigger on Mace.

    I feel vaguely unclean.

  137. Hold on a second – weren’t Beta units supposed to be those bulky secondary back up units for the Alphas with missile packs that provided extra lift to get the Alpha fighters to break out of the Earth’s atmosphere during the Invid invasion during the Third Robotech War? No? Anyone? *slinks back to watching 80s anime instead of doing work.*

  138. @MNiM – it’s true, that is a risk I’m taking. I keep watch on mine carefully and provide examples of what happens should he stray. Seeing one alpha driven from his nesting ground when he expresses a non-feminist view achieves wonders!

    One shouldn’t forget rewards though; those who learn stenography get rewarded by a slight loosening of their scrotal clamps.

  140. Oops. I Googled™ “Ian Ironwood” and now I’m sorry.

    Why did you mention that? I did the same thing and I can’t unsee it.

  141. MANOSPHERE, WEEK ELEVEN, DAY THREE

    The Chief keeps talking about “forming the robot” during our raids. When I ask him what he means, he tells me he doesn’t know what I’m talking about.

    I’m getting worried.

  142. @Karina — perhaps I shall try that.

    The beatings have hardly done anything to improve morale lately.

  145. MANOSPHERE, WEEK ELEVEN, DAY FIVE

    Barry took me aside after today’s raid and asked me about the “forming the robot” thing. I told him I didn’t know what the hell it meant, but I figured the Chief knew what he was talking about.

    Barry said the reason he brought it up was because it reminded him of something his son did before… before he lost him. His son was watching something called “anime.”

    Anime. That word made me uneasy, so I did a little poking around. That’s when I figured it out.

    The Chief is infected.

    He doesn’t know it yet. I don’t know how it happened–maybe he was bitten, maybe it’s some kind of pheromone or musk–but he’s not coming back. My hands are shaking as I write this: if anyone was going to get us through this, my money was on the Chief! He was the best of us!

    Was. He’s not gone yet, but it’s only a matter of time.

  146. Bash the Manosphere all you want, but at least we’re talking about serious stuff over there

    Wow. He writes in the form of dehydrated cognitive dissonance. You take in this unassuming little pill, then BLAM, its all up in your biddness with “What the fuck??? Manosphere??? Serious stuff??? In the same sentence??? Argh My Head is EXPLODING!!!!”

  147. @Karina — that could be it! I’ve been using a purple one, as more gender-ambiguous.

    This thread has been SO useful.

  148. MANOSPHERE, WEEK ELEVEN, DAY SIX

    We now have the Chief under 24 hour armed guard. I hate myself for it, but there’s nothing left to do.

    The copy of The Fountainhead he always carries with him–it’s a fake. It’s hollow. Inside were all these comic books full of weird-looking girls with huge eyes wearing lacy things. Even the men in the comic look like girls. Though I admit their swords look cool…

    No! I don’t admit that! That’s how it starts. That’s probably how it started for the Chief. They hook with the swords, and the next thing you know you’re wearing puffy shirts, shaving your chest, and dying your hair blue.

    We gagged him. I didn’t want to, but we couldn’t risk it. He keeps looking at me, and the shame in his eyes… he knows what happened to him now, and he knows he isn’t going to make it.

    Poor bastard.

  149. MANOSPHERE, WEEK TWELVE, DAY TWO:

    This morning we found the Chief up in a tree, right in the fork where the branches meet the trunk. He was . . . not himself. Hands at ten and two around an invisible steering yoke, he kept “turning” his tree and yelling “I’LL FORM THE HEAD!” Then he started giggling.

    He’s still up there. He won’t come down.

    I hear drums.

  151. @Greg — sssh, Greg, do not fret so. Apply to your nearest Feminist for a mind-numbing list of chores. The Manosphere is not for you.

  153. @JBWhelan — never before have I so wished I were a graphic artist for your little gem of manosphere melodrama.

  154. I seem to recall that Scalzi and I have the same Myers-Briggs, INTP. I don’t but too much stock into any of that excepting a great line I read in a summary on INTPs: “Has no desire to either lead or follow.” I think a lot of the folks who need to be “Alpha Males” just assume that everyone gives a frak about it.

  155. I go away to get some work done and you weirdos have written a Manosphere short story. I love this site!

  156. Whole bunch of queen bees buzzing around in here today. Guess all the drones are still hard at work.

  157. @The Pathetic Earthling, That’s interesting. I’ve tested as INTP pretty consistently and that describes me pretty thoroughly (“has no desire to lead or follow.”) And for some reason the fact that a test describes me in any way pisses me off to no end…

  160. Good heavens! I leave to grade some papers and look what I find when I get back. Some one has committed a nuisance on the blog… Ick. I guess I’m not a feminist, since I don’t recognize mr. Ironwood’s definition.
    @Beth – the smallest male must, of course be the omicron male – since that is smaller than the omega (abstruse Greek joke here, I apologize.)
    People have dominance hierarchies – we call it “ranking” in anthropology (I am an anthropological and classical archaeologist), but they go far beyond alphabet soup in complexity. They also tend to be situational, as I said above. But now I’m starting to lecture and I think I should stop.

  161. “Let me tell you son, it’s hard to imagine, looking back from 2012, but I remember when we had a male president, more than 19 percent of Cognress were guys, and more than 17% of the House, too. We even had more than 4% of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. And we didn’t have a 20% lower salary rate than women *. Man, those were good days. NFL players could carry on through concussion, and there was no such thing as Lite beer.”

    Oops, sorry, I got the men and women mixed up. Silly me. * although I’m not 100% convinced by this number, there is probably a statistically significant lower wage for women than men.

    Also, Ian, if you are trying to make a point,saying “Back to the book. Some of us write for a living.” is not helpful. I doubt Mr. Scalzi’s honorarium from the Feminist Womens’ Secret Word Council (And Book Club) is his main source of income…

    Where’s the best place to learn about the grounding philosohpy of the Cavemanosphere?

  162. @Christopher Wright: not only are all the worker bees female, but there’s only one queen bee in a hive; you get more than one queen and she’ll either leave to form her own hive or try to kill the existing queen. But since Poe’s Law was in effect maybe Kilroy was subtly trying to make a point about the Ian Ironwood types’ complete misapplication of how they think nature works? (That, or maybe he’s II’s editor and is grumpy that we’re distracting his star author.)

  164. @christopher wright: you learned me something good today. Drones are the males and don’t do anything other than mate and die. Don’t even feed themselves. Guess I meant worker bees that do everything to maintain the hive while the queen breeds. Always used Queen Bee to describe the leader of a pack of teenage girls. Back to the drawing board.

  165. @Chris, try Manboobz. I urge you NOT to try it as a drinking game, unless what you’re drinking is non-alcoholic tears-of-men liqueur or you’ll be drunk before you know it.

  166. Great, Christopher Wrights stuff is now in my head with Charleston Heston Budweiser commercial voice and all Kierkegaard I read is in Dick Van Patton’s voice. And I’m distrustful of sunsets!

    Could Ian’s posts be some sort of lame hipster marketing attempt? Meh.

  167. I know I have a lot of work to get done today, but by God, I’m too enthralled by this thread! I’m sure Mr. Ironwood means well, but someone needs to let a little air and sunshine into that room, stat! There is no gynocratic conspiracy, no plot to emasculate the planet. Women are simply being more acknowledged as human beings than they were before in our history. Not as property, not as extension of men, but as individuals. They’re just catching up to the lofty position of the alpha males.

  169. Manosphere folks – please take one internets each, you deserve it.

    Mr. Scalzi, I was pretty sure that as an active science fiction author (and Pres), you were at the top of the geek hierarchy. Now you’re claiming to to be at the bottom the the hierarchy? This is all topsy turvy and confusing. My momma (and GURPS[1]) told me that status was measured on a strictly a linear scale, so this is bad and wrong.

    [1] Actually, GURPS allows non-generalized status if you want it, IIRC, but letting accuracy get in the way of my thesis would be beta as hell.

  170. I too googled “Ian Ironwood” and found this on his Twitter page: “Ian Ironwood is a professional porn reviewer, critic author, and blogger at The Sex Nerd. Yeah, I watch porn. All day. And I get paid for it. Envy me.” Most enlightening.

  173. “There is no gynocratic conspiracy, no plot to emasculate the planet.”

    That’s what THEY want us to think… they have you fooled, but they’ll never convert me!!!!!

  174. Kilroy: Point of fact. All the workers in the hive are female. As far as I know, the drones don’t open the hive doors for them

  175. @bonelady — nooo, not the abstruse Greek jokes! We can’t have any of that!

    I have now twisted my (not-blonde) hair up into a tight scientific bun and am running tests to determine the nature of the upsilon male. So far, he appears to be a small, sleek Italian who can’t decide between right and wrong. Meanwhile, the theta males have banded together to form a really weird cult. I’m keeping them under close observation through my highly scientific (but oddly sexy) spectacles, but I’ve decided to give the nu males a degree of statistical freedom and see what they do with it.

  176. MVS: Ian Ironwood is a professional porn reviewer, critic author, and blogger at The Sex Nerd. Yeah, I watch porn. All day.

    Pssst. That’s what the toilet paper was for….

    shhhhhh….

  177. @MNim – This “Manosphere” heresy must be contained. Could inspire revolution. Will note for next meeting (my turn to bring the chocolate!).

  180. @ianironwood:

    “I ignore it, I don’t go all bloggy about it”

    Yeah, and that’s some quality ignoring you’ve got going on, there, too. I for one am totally convinced that you’re not in the slightest bit insecure about the topic of this post or people’s responses to you. (Hey, you put it in those terms.)

    —

    It’s all rather sad, isn’t it? I mean, I can appreciate that it must be a shock to look around and find that you’ve slipped down the food chain relative to where you might have been a few generations ago, because you’re having to *compete* against women now rather than being automatically skipped ahead of them in the queue for jobs and so forth just by virtue of being male, but to conclude that this means it’s over for your gender unless you fight back…? Why is it a zero-sum game? You’re not at the bottom of the pile now. You’re just not getting catapulted straight to the top.

  181. BTW, Fellow Femisnarkists, does anyone know why I keep finding soft-core porn on the way to my drum circle? I meant to ask at the last meeting, but completely forgot once we got starting on syncing our moon cycles.

  182. The Decline Of Men (extended remix EP) is actually in a sense a real thing. We’ve come from a point where a miniscule subset of roughly 50% of the population controlled most everything and a larger subset of that 50% got the most benefit out of it and everyone else (roughly 70% of the population, probably a lowball estimate) got screwed over. We’re now at a point where maybe only 60% are getting screwed over and those who historically got to do the screwing over are subject to the indignity of being merely equal to everyone else rather than superior to them. This, from their perspective is a decline. A well deserved, and still woefully incomplete decline.

  183. The hilarious thing is that if you ask self-identified alpha males about meritocracy, they’ll be ALL FOR IT. Heaven forfend they they have to actually, you know, prove that they’re the best now, though.

    A part of me has some morbid fascination with what sort of Gorean epic Mr. Ironwood is penning. Then I re-read that sentence, and realize that life’s too short.

  185. @Karina — a very valid point! We tend to underestimate the stubbornness of their simple minds at times, I think. Perhaps a distraction, such as heightening hemlines by a small increment, would be in order?

    @Mythago — you’re the scientist, what do you think?

  186. MANOSPHERE, WEEK THIRTEEN, DAY FIVE:

    Lost Tiree, lost Dutch . . . they came from behind . . . the Chief won’t get out of the god damn tree . . .

    We cannot get out . . . drums in the deep . . .

    They are coming.

  187. @MNiM – IT WON’T WORK! OPERATIVE GAGA ALREADY ONLY WEARS UNDERWEAR. SUBJECTS BECOMMING IMMUNE! We must release more estrogen into the water.

  189. MNiM, just a guess, but the soft-core porn could be a form of breadcrumb trail left by Chauncey or his like to help them find their way back to the Manosphere after a scouting expedition. I know, I know, they’re supposed to be all masters of woodcraft, and it would upset the poor souls if they knew we had discovered the truth.

  190. @MVS: I too googled “Ian Ironwood” and found this on his Twitter page: “Ian Ironwood is a professional porn reviewer, critic author, and blogger at The Sex Nerd. Yeah, I watch porn. All day. And I get paid for it. Envy me.”

    I envy his local Kleenex distributor.

  193. Re: Charlton Heston narration: “You can take my testicles when you pry them from my cold dead hands.” Soon to be the catch phrase of the Manosphere.

    I know, “Ewww,” but it had to be said. I regret nothing, except not buying Apple stock when Sculley was running the show.

  194. The Gender Wars Are Heating Up!
    ManoSphere Gaming, November 20, 2012
    By Biggs HardShaft, Editor-At-LARGE

    Here at ManoSphere Gaming we’ve long been following the development of the eagerly awaited real-time strategy game Gender Wars 2: The Feminazi Conspiracy from Ironwood Studios; last week we got to spend time with the latest “Alpha” build (all builds are Alpha; this is just the latest) and we’re very impressed by what we’ve played.

    As with the first Gender Wars, this game is developed by an all-male team and self-published to avoid the taint of womyn in the mainstream publishing industry. Though it is steeped in the proud tradition of the first game, it has numerous enhancements and improvements and even a few surprises! Let’s take a look –

    The first loading screens set a powerful tone for the game, full of ruddy, manly color. But then pink begins to seep in around the edges, symbolizing the pernicious influence of females as they turn the world away from the purity of True Manliness. That’s right; this game opens with Manhood in a defensive state, neatly paralleling the state of affairs in the real world in its gut-wrenching cinematics. Fortunately, these cutscenes are brief and the gameplay itself is brought forward in a direct and manly fashion.

    The two game factions, Man and Womyn, each have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages and as with the real world, most of the advantage is to Womyn and most of the disadvantage is to Man. Womyn, for example, have at their disposal a growing sense of personal autonomy and sexual independence, as well as reproductive health care. Men, by contrast, only have control of the military, the financial sector, most of the media, the political establishment, the police and court systems, traditional religion, higher pay and greater physical strength. And as Gender Wars 2 begins, Womyn have been making some gains in most of those areas.
    Each side has a number of units at their disposal, most of which carry over from the previous game, but there are some standout new units which add a great deal to the gameplay. Womyn has Beta Blinders which can be applied to Beta males, adding their administrative abilities to Womyn and thus reducing the amount available to Man (it is a zero-sum game, after all). The Slut unit from the first game, widely feared for its ability to weaken the resolve of Man units ranked Beta and below and spread disease and shame, has been replaced by the much more powerful Slutwalker which is able to do openly and publically what the Slut could only do at game events like Frat Parties and Back Roads. Finally, the White Knight is a co-opted Man unit that brings all the abilities of a high-level Beta to bear against Man. White Knights can be upgraded to greater power, resulting in either a Joss Whedon with a greater range of influence or a John Scalzi with a devastating Rhetoric attack. The presence of a White Knight adds +2 to a False Rape Accusation attack, and a Whedon or Scalzi increases that by an additional twenty percent.

    On the Man side are a number of hero units that can be called to bolster Man in conflict, such as the Vox Day, the JohnTheOther, and the Paul Elam. These are not nearly as powerful as the new Womyn units, but they have high Defense scores and add +1 to Area Of Effect; these can make the difference between defeat and survival in battle. One notable and welcome addition to the Man faction is the “Alpha Game” attack; this allows the player to subdue and dominate Womyn units on the field and can even capture high-ranking units if used carefully. It does require a bit of micro-management, as kept Womyn must regularly have the Know Your Place modifier forcefully applied to keep them from getting uppity and undermining a ManCave base. The player also has the option to exchange ten Womyn captured via “Alpha Game” for a GirlWritesWhat, a unit which is similar to a White Knight, only more disposable.
    Gender Wars 2 not only takes advantage of advances in recent computing technology, it absolutely requires them. It needs a virile and manly rig with at least an eight-core Xeon processor, 64 gigs of RAM, and triple GeForce 680 graphics cards in SLI. Weak Gamma level machines that were considered top-end a few years ago will barely run it, and girly machines like Macs and iPads can’t load it at all and will never be allowed to.
    This game is not for the faint of heart. It requires a steely, manly resolve to get past the opening levels, and the AI for the Womyn faction is frighteningly realistic, able to see and exploit every vulnerability you have. It’s a grim scenario that will challenge and frustrate many gamers; fortunately, there is a Lowest Difficulty Setting available. But even at normal difficulty, there is hope.
    As we said at the beginning, we’re very impressed. The scenarios are frighteningly well-realized, the presentation is stylish, the gameplay very challenging. When this game gets out of Alpha, it needs to be on every Real Man’s list.

    – Biggs HardShaft

  195. And thus comes the tragic, heroic, desperate final stand of Real Men, the last defiant battle where manmanity was overwhelmed by the cruel savagery of the gynocratic overladies. Ladymanity was ascendent, and stood unopposed.

    And yet, in the corners of civilization, there are yet still whispered stories told among the people of that tragic day. And with stories there is still yet hope. Hope that some day, out of the ashes, there will come a chosen one of sufficient height, with the right build, who shall be known by the cleft in his jaw and his steely gaze, who will rally the oppressed men, pull the finger of justice and light the testosterone fires, so that all good and right-thinking men may rally to the cause…

    … the cause of the Manosphere.

  196. @Karina — dammit, you’re right. With progress on the free-contraceptives initiative underway, it shouldn’t be too hard to increase the dosage.

  197. Manosphere? Is that somewhere between the stratosphere and the mesosphere? Is there a womanosphere? How about a generic peopleosphere and what does the Venn diagram of spheres look like? It sounds like to me that the Men of the Manosphere define themselves on their manly manness and pretty much nothing else and then are upset when other people start thinking in terms of people and not gendered roles. It’s got to be disconcerting to not be referred to at all by what you solely define yourself as.

    Also, I think I have too much gamer in me because I see ‘beta male’ and I think, “So they’ve gone through the initial design phase and are now ready for limited testing?” Hey! If we are just randomly throwing out Greek letters, I vote Mr. Scalzi be labeled the Pi Male. I’ve made Schadenfreude pie and it is delicious.

  200. Hellish day at work, so caught the back end of the blog bus once more. Complete agreement, John. All that tripe isn’t worth the time of day. Pity those who have their world so tightly wrapped in concepts of status and posturing. It must be absolutely angst-ridden, not to mention tiring, to be them.

  202. “I admit it. Frequency of posts on a subject does suggest insecurity on that subject. Which means it is time for me to admit it”

    Well presumably, John, if you care as little as you claimed, you wouldn’t even spend precious time posting about it. So what makes you deign to even comment on Vox (and fairly often) if you care little, if at all, about his comments about you?

  203. @BW — ahhh. This is part of the crippling phobia of navigational aids, like asking for directions, that I hear so many males struggle with, isn’t it?

  205. Eric Saveau, I got my wife a new Lexus for Christmas and all she got me was a damn game! Heeeeey, waitaminnit! This game is great! My wife? No, I don’t know what she’s doing or where she’s spending her evenings while I’m gaming, but who cares???

  207. @Spectator: Well, I can’t speak for John, but I believe it’s because it’s two days before Thanksgiving and many of us have checked out like high school seniors in May. And poking fun is better than working today.

  208. @booniverse — don’t be ridiculous. Womanosphere! The Manosphere is opposed by the Femisnarky.

    What you call the Peopleosphere is merely a recruitment pool for both.

  211. My most recent test results show that the eta male is highly efficient, while the lambda male works well with lesbians. Clearly, both these types will be useful servants of the Femisnarky.

  212. Say what you will, this place is a never-ending provider of fascinating information; who knew that someone could actually get paid to review porn?

    On the one hand it certainly explains a lot about Mr Ironwood’s worldview, but on the other it makes it abundantly clear that the poor chump wouldn’t last more than a day in the jungle compound for manly men.

    Maybe we need to build some compounds for men who want to believe that they are manly men but lack credibility for the role. A bit like Tom Cruise playing Jack Reacher…

  213. @Beth — excellent news! Tell me, do you think there’s any chance of the lambda male posing The Risk to lesbians?

  214. MANOSPHERE, WEEK SIXTEEN, DAY FIVE

    Desperate times. It is only the few of us now, the last mainstay of True Manhood, holed up here in the sporting section of Cabela’s. Rations are running low, moral is worse; even reading Dirk Pitt novels and killing small animals with a borrowed crossbow doesn’t seem to help. Also, the sales associate said we have to pay for the crossbow now that it’s used merchandise. Insipid fool! Little does he realize the importance of our presence here!
    We are the shining beacon of strapping masculinity! The prevalent purveyors of audacious macho-ness! They will thank us, NAY, revere us when they comprehend the importance of our work here! Long will our ideals live!
    We lost Johnson last week on a scouting mission to the concession stand. A trap had been set; while stocking up on beef jerky and hand warmers he was waylaid by a mob of apron wearing house wives, full of promises of freshly baked goods in return for servitude.
    Miller was accosted by his mother and was dragged away by the ear; his screams still haunt my nightmares.
    And Nelson, poor weak fool, suddenly jumped up and ran away wailing, ‘STUPID! THIS IS ALL STUPID!! I’M GOING BACK TO MY WIFE AND I WILL RESPECT HER AS A HUMAN BEING AND EQUAL!!!’
    But that’s fine. The weak have been weaned from True Men. That’s us.
    It is cold now, darkness has fallen. The store has closed for the night. I fear this may be the end; the doors rattle, there are whispers! Whispers in the dark.
    ‘We will take your manliness!’ they hiss ‘we will downcast you into the role of nanny and dress you in FRILLSSS!!!’
    AH!! The terror!! Even now there are drums, drums in the deep.
    They are coming, we cannot get out! We cannot……

  215. @MNiM: I’m afraid I’m not actually tall and angular enough to be a feminsnark scientist, but at a guess I’d say that somebody’s more ill-behaved man-slave slipped out of his scrotal clamps and tried to lead you into a man drumming circle. Highly recommend you stick to lady-instruments.

  216. Can we just dispel this myth that certain men are “alpha” and some men are “beta”? the analogy only works for specific situations and specific moments. Put a group of guys in a certain situation, a leader will emerge for that situation and he’ll be the alpha. Put that same group in a different situation, and different leader would likely emerge.

    For instance, get a group of 4 guys with the task of changing all the tires on a car. compare that with same group of guys with the task of cooking a thanksgiving dinner. compare that with same group trapped in a jungle. And the leader or “alpha” can change during the course of the specific task.

  217. @Christopher Wright: You have definitely won the day, if for no other reason than coining manmanity. Way to go Colbert on the comments!

  218. I’m so glad I’m a beta. Alphas have to work so terribly hard…

    Men who call other men beta males are epsilon males (using ‘epsilon’ here in the mathematical sense).

    Yeah, ianironwood, it’s “telling” all right. It tells how little John cares about your opinion, except to laugh at you. A correlary to Poe’s Law forbids me to conclude that you are actually doing satire, much as I prefer that theory to the idea of someone being as ironheaded as you appear. Also, I just wish you’d stop whining.

    Next time I go to a convention (with money) I’m going to want to give a Beta Male/Feminazi party. All the men will have to wear collars and bring baked goods (and swear they baked them personally). They will bow or kneel to the women, who will address them all as “slave.”

    Actually I’ve been to parties a lot like that…except there were no women. Or baked goods, actually.

    MVS: So his assumed name IS…what John told us “don’t go there” about. Not quite as loserly as ‘Vox Day’, but up there. Or down there. Whatever.

    MNiM: if you go to regular drum circles, you won’t have to do anything to synch your moon cycles (with the other women in the drum circle). It’ll just happen.

  219. Kilroy: Can we just dispel this myth that certain men are “alpha” and some men are “beta”?

    I think the only one holding onto that myth is ianironwood et al.

  220. @mythago — I’m terribly sorry, for a moment there I mixed you up with scientist Beth! (Alas, I too lack the requisite features to be a Femisnark scientist). But really, men have drumming circles? Whatever for? Surely they don’t believe they could ever hear the Mother’s heartbeat?

    The heresy is spreading faster than I thought.

  221. @MNiM: since the phi male has a better-proportioned body (the ‘golden ratio’), it’s better to have one of them do the posing. I’m not sure how they do on abstract interpretive contortionism, but they’re so pretty to watch that I’m happy to have them try.

    The sad news is that my entire testing stock of zeta males escaped at the end of the storm season and were last seen spinning in circles far, far out in the ocean. Trying to find more.

  222. “I am a grown-up, for God’s sake.”

    Actually, no. You’re a civilized man, which is quite different.

    Evaluating fast and quickly the relative social status of a bunch of evolved primates next to you is what makes us human. Our humongous big brains have evolved to allow us to satisfy the demand of using hands, speech, and accurately track relative social status in the up-to-150 band of primates that were our primary environment.

    And that was an essential survival skill when the nearest alpha male could bash your brains for failing to provide proper respect.

    That aspect faded when we became civilized (in the true sense, i.e. started living in cities) and a number of other social constructs came into being to rule ever increasing large number of no-longer-naked primates. With relative social status less meaningful, that skill is now no longer necessary.

    And, incidentally, our brain size has started to shrunk in the last dozens of millenia… since we invented cities. Because, you know, if tracking and evaluating that social status is no longer that important, you save a lot of brain matter and calories by dropping that.

  223. @greg: even Scalzi is identifying himself as a “beta”. And I think just about everyone that ran into Scalzi at a con would play the beta to him. Except maybe for Will Weaton or Pat Rothfuss.

  224. Bleh, post aborted. So, what I wanted to add is:

    So, you’re the man of the future. And those “alpha-obssessed males” are just evolutionary throwbacks.

    But, of course, given their natures, evolutionary throwbacks is probably a compliment. For them.

  225. I agree, this is the coolest Whatever comment thread ever.

    Stevie: “A bit like Tom Cruise playing Jack Reacher…” — No, please, make it stop!

  227. See what you have done, Ian Ironwood? See what you have done? You have handed nerds an exercise in ironic classically-influenced taxonomy!

    Also, I know you’re secretly a sigma male, you standard deviant you.

  228. Ladies of the Femisnark, I bring a warning. There are rumors among the subordinates of a shrine to evolutionary psychology…should such a place exist, disaster would be imminent. We must all crack down and make examples of those who would dare foster such thoughts.

  230. @Beth — perhaps I could pop in for a bit? Just to see how things are progressing, of course. I could bring Asti.

  233. @MNiM: I think it’s a pathetic attempt to try to feel the Rhythm of Life, or something, the poor dears. That, or they just like hitting things.

  234. As this is Thanksgiving week, I would like to express the following here:
    I want to take this opportunity to thank all of you fine people for completely wasting a good half of my last day of work this week.
    I also want to thank many of you for making clear something that I had long suspected: My abilities at sarcasm, while not insubstantial, pale in the bright glow provided by your snark.
    And thanks to Ian Ironwood, without whom this day would not have been anywhere near as entertaining.

  235. Kilroy: even Scalzi is identifying himself as a “beta”.

    When Bob says to Charlie: “you’re a poopyhead”, and Charlie responds by rolling his eyes and saying “Yeah, I’m a poopyhead. Now go away kid, ya bother me”, then yes, Charlie is “identifying himself” as a poopyhead.

    But you’re missing some rather important context in the script.

  237. Oh, no! Another alpha/beta-male discussion! I remember what happened last time… and since I have no desire to attract the attention of the Pajama People again, I’m now fleeing into the night!

    Pausing only long enough to comment on this:

    Scalzi: “I AM VERY INSECURE ABOUT MY CATS. ”

    Is that why you taped bacon to one of them? You beta-fiend!

  238. @Xopher Halftongue — of course we could just ‘let it happen’, but including chocolate, wine, and roses makes it more fun!

  239. GACK! I dropped the second line, goddammit!

    “I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.”
    “You have no power over me.”

  240. For an interesting, useful and nice discussion of some of the actual mechanics of human status interaction, and what happens when the humans involved become aware of said interactions, read Keith Johnstone’s “Impro”. (Am not sure this post actually counts as useful or on-topic, but am hoping maybe someone else has read said book too…)

  242. @Xopher: I won’t have epsilon males in my lab. They get in with the delta males, and that’s a hard limit for me.

  246. To update my earlier post, “Get All Bloggy With It” is the name of my next album. “You’re a poopyhead” will be the name of my hit single.

  247. Revolver: I dunno about you, but Jareth’s codpiece certainly had power over me.

    I loved that movie when it came out. Probably watched it half a dozen times. But unfortunately, it did not survive the ages. I watched it recently and was taken back a bit by how… I hate to say this… bad… some of it is.

  248. @MNiM: of course you can pop in! Asti would be splendid. Also chocolate, and a few more abstract concepts for the phi males to use as an improvisation basis.

  253. @Brian: we’ll use your album launch as a kickoff for the “Bash the Manosphere” rock festival.

  254. I know I can’t be the only one who now has Gettin’ Jiggy Wit It stuck in my head, replaced with Get All Bloggy With It.

  256. Currently measuring the amount of force a psi male can exert. Surprisingly easy to measure.

  257. @jbwhelan: The problem there is that there’s an infinite hierarchy of aleph-males. You have aleph-null males and aleph-one males and aleph-two males and so on and so forth, and then the Continuum Hypothesis comes in to play and it’s all a cardinal clusterfuck.

  258. @MNiM Have you tried replacing the soft core porn with erotica? May I suggest excerpts from “Switch Hitters” ? I believe the anthology is still available from the Amazon.

  259. Revolver: BLASPHEMY

    It still has a place on my DVD shelf. I could never bring myself to throw it away.

    Greg: ianironwood is the goblinking.

    wait a second… Hangs out with trolls. Steals babies. Is afraid of teenage girls. Has no power in the real world. When confronted he turns into an owl and flies away.

    Woah, that’s actually way more accurate than I was originally thinking.

  261. @Greg: I keep reading that as “gob linking” or possibly “go blinking”. *blinks*

  262. A part of me wants to introduce David Knuth’s Surreal Numbers into this but only because after reading Surreal Numbers my sense of humor has gotten all strange.

  267. @KarenD: need to slip in a copy of Mr. Benson there. It’ll get the poor dears all a-flutter about what a real ‘alpha male’ is, in that mythology.

    @BW: so he’d be a kind of AlphaPope?

  268. All of these conjectures about what Greek letter identifies our gracious host are missing the obvious: John Scalzi is a psi-phi male.

  270. Okay, I’m back for this: I, too, googled Ian Ironwood, and I found: “Ian Ironwood is the pseudonym for a New York Times best-selling novelist who wishes, at this point, to remain anonymous.”

    I LOVE this!

    I love it s much, I’ve decided that “Laura Resnick is the pseudonym for a supermodel with a PhD in neuroscience who wishes, at this point, to remain anonymous.”

  272. DG Lewis, Cardinal Clusterfuck says that puns are the lowest form of humor and you will BURN in HELL for that.

  274. Why is our Greek vocabulary here so limited? Alpha, beta, delta, gamma . . . four letters? This is like Green Eggs and Ham.

    Where are all the Pi Men?

    (Going to the fair.)

    Where are the Psi Men?

    (Well, the simple ones are going to the fair, with the Pi Men)

    Where are the Rho Men?

    (To be discussed in my forthcoming essay, The Decline and Fall of the Rho Men Empire.)

  275. I usually don’t comment here, since I’m sort of shy and retiring. But I want to thank all of you , especially Ian Ironwood, whoever the hell he is, for a month’s worth of amusement in one morning. Also, I wanna be a Femisnarckist and join the lunch mob.

  278. @Beth — one of my males has just told me that he wants his designation to be a pi male. Should I allow his self-designation, apply only if he meets the criteria, or reject out of hand? I lean toward the third option, of course, but I’m not entirely sure. Perhaps he does meet the criteria, and with an expert at hand, I thought it best to discuss matters in committee.

    I suspect his request is simply because he thinks it sounds delicious.

  279. Kaimi: I’ve done at least preliminary work on most of the available Greek letters. I’m going to need a new alphabet soon. Somebody else already tackled aleph.

    BTW, My most recent tests show kappa males to be highly reliable.

  280. MNiM, what will you do if they *all* want to self-designate? Slippery slope here, don’t you think?

  281. jbwhelan: Cardinal Clusterfuck is my Stryper/Slayer hybrid cover band.

    First single is a cover of Bonnie Tyler’s “Holding out for a Beta”.

  282. @Laura — of course you can join the Femisnarkists! As for the lunch mob, merely direct the nearest male to provide you with whatever nourishment you desire. Ice cream is traditional, but if you lean sadistic, they find it especially degrading to be forced to make sandwiches.

  283. On another site some years ago, there was a particularly offensive and laughable troll. A pileon ensued; one of the moderators said “OK, that’s enough,” and one of the commentariat said “But…but there’s more candy in him!” Since then we call a troll who’s the object of a joyful pileon a “piñata.”

    Ian is the piñata of this thread. The analogy isn’t quite perfect, since he’s the one who’s blind.

  284. @MNiM: better test him. Is he irrational? Is he square? If you combine him with another proto-pi male, are they square in combination? Can he bake?

  285. Christopher, jbwhelan, Megan, et al,
    I think you guys are going about this all wrong. After re-reading Ian’s comments (apparently I am masochistic), I am firmly convinced that rather than a Tolkien interpretation, his story is really pining for a Matheson interpretation. The only difference is that ALL the vampires are women, and there are apparently a few other men also locked tight in their homes that he can get messages (coded, obviously) out to.
    So get to work writing it, you word lackeys!

  286. @BW — I do worry about that, I admit. But I’m not sure it can’t be made to work to our advantage. Truly, it seems many men find pretending to be alphas exhausting. Allowing — nay, encouraging — them to embrace their true natures could lead them to greater contentment within the confines of the Femisnarky. So controlled testing would of course be necessary before wide implementation.

    We wouldn’t want them thinking they can just throw off their scrotal clamps and survive without us.

  287. BTW, I meant “you people” of course. Sorry for the “you guys” thing.

  288. I believe Cardinal Clusterfuck took the name Ian when he was elevated to Pontiff of the Manosphere. Pope Ian was elevated at around 9AM.

  291. MNiM: they can just throw off their scrotal clamps

    Jesus. I’m glad you said something. I was wondering if the pain in my giblets was something I needed to see my doctor about.

    Now I know its normal.

  293. @Beth — hmm. Rarely irrational and more of a rhombus, though I’m not certain he’s properly Euclidean, but he can bake.

  296. Laura, you could have mentioned it before now; do you know how difficult it is to recruit neuroscientists to go undercover at the Victoria’s Secrets show?

    The ones we’ve got at the moment are all bloody particle physicists who not only haven’t got a clue when it comes to mapping relationships between cup size and synaptic activity but are constantly explaining to people the difference between bosoms and bosons…

  297. Been reading this thread with Feminist Vaginal Popcorn all afternoon, and my boyfriend got up to get something from the kitchen. I mused out loud that a glass of wine would be lovely, and he told me I ought to find the nearest beta-male and tighten the scrotal clamps a little to get that glass of wine delivered to me.

    My response: “Shit, I’m so confused by this thread that I’m not sure if calling you a beta-male is an insult! Get back to the manosphere and make me some pie.”

  299. I can’t remember last time I read a comment thread that left me ;literally weeping with laughter.
    (I too, want to see a graphic novel of the tragic tale of the Mace Hunter and the studly manmanity survivors)

  300. @jenphalian — of course it’s not an insult! It is the proper order of things.

    It’s also possible that your boyfriend is probably upset that you have not yet given him his own set of scrotal clamps.

  301. I realize that it may be unproductive at this point to respond to IanIronwood on a point-by-point basis. Mr. Scalzi has understandably declined to take the task upon himself and Mr. Wood clearly stated in his last post “I’m taking my ball(s) and going home!” so he might not be around to respond again.

    But Mr. Wood has called out the Lurkers to his defense and as a longtime male Lurker on this site, I feel it is my duty to speak up. I have been a Lurker here because my comments are usually stated early on by other more eloquent voices (Mr Wright, you are a genius) or Mr. Scalzi himself. However (and read this next sentence in your best 80s action movie hero voice):

    This time, it’s personal.

    I came through adolescence around the time of Robert Bly’s “Iron John” and the first mainstream media stirrings of the “Men’s Movement” and have had countless pointed and pointless debates about all this ever since. Some have been fruitful and some have been hours of my life that I will never get back. Yet I still believe that if any man wants to have this discussion honestly, another man should engage him and attempt to reason this out. My personal definition of feminism states, in part, that men need to change themselves and each other. No woman should have to convince a man that she 1) deserves unconditional equality (I’ve never understood why this is even up for debate…) and 2) does not yet have it on an institutional/cultural level.

    Mr. Wood, if you are still reading, I offer my thoughts on your comments, in all sincerity and as I understand them:

    1. “knee-jerk loyalty to feminism…is one of the issue contributing to the decline of men in our society”

    This frames the debate as “feminism vs masculinity”, which I think is a false construct. I have never personally seen any work on women’s equality hurt me in the political, professional, or social sphere. Also, I would ask you for evidence supporting the “decline of men in our society”. For example, are men being shut out of professional fields and their work dismissed because they have testicles? Are we now systematically exploited or degraded in the cultural arena? Are men now the minority in government and is this hurting “male interests” or male advancements?

    2. “Ah! But men don’t have interests, you say.”

    What precisely are male interests? I have many interests I am advancing – I want to make more money, I want to own property, etc. But which of these are gender-based and would be advanced any with help from exclusively male allies? Men are firmly ensconced/entrenched in power in this country, so is male interest then reduced to fighting to maintain power? (If so, I seriously don’t have the time or energy for that.)

    3. “our sons sit dejectedly on the sidelines, utterly dis-incentivized”

    What were the incentives to advancing in the workplace before women started “taking the professional world by storm”? I would define them as a paycheck and a sense of pride. But again, which of those is gender based? I can work for an all female company and still take home a paycheck and a sense of pride. I don’t have to be the sole breadwinner in my house to feel proud of my accomplishments nor does my sense of masculinity depend upon the marginalization of a woman. In fact, why does the advancement of men have to mean the suppression of women? Why does the debate about and struggle for gender equality have to exist in a zero sum world at all?

  302. @Greg — dude, I keep telling you. Come over to the Pink Side. It’s much less confusing once you do.

  303. Round of applause to everybody keeping the silliness going this afternoon. What a fantastic thread.

  307. @Ron Mitchell — I’m waiting for the mail to bring me fresh letters so I can continue my research.

  308. Well I guess we’re going to be planting quite a few phallic shaped torture/execution devices before this thread is done.

  309. jbwhelen: What do you mean, “YOU PEOPLE?”

    Alpa Chino: What do *you* mean, “you people?”

    Kirk Lazarus: Huh?

  311. Regis felt the cold sweat trickle down his back as he tore through vegetation and tall grass. Soon his doom would find him with swiftness and razor tipped claws and shrill screams.
    Faster! He must run faster! The weight of his pack was a stone weight on his back but to part with his Hustler magazines!? Unthinkable!
    Desperately he shoved stiff stalks of chest-high chaff away as he sought refuge. He could hear the snort, the growls of the terrifying creatures that pursued him. He risked a glance backwards to find to his horror it was too late!!
    His body was born to the ground as terrible teeth sought his throat. If only he had headed the warning,
    “ Don’t go into the long grass!!!”
    The raptor gleefully sank it’s teeth into – errrr, hey wait! This isn’t Matheson, it’s Jurassic Park! Whoops, my bad. I’ll try again.

  314. “He wished he’d had time to soundproof the house. It wouldn’t be so bad if it weren’t that he had to listen to them. Even after five months, it got on his nerves.

    He never looked at them any more. In the beginning he’d made a peephole in the front window and watched them. But then the women had seen him and had started striking vile postures in order to entice him out of the house. He didn’t want to look at that.

    He put down his book and stared bleakly at the rug, hearing Verklärte Nacht play over the loud-speaker. He knew he could put plugs in his ears to shut off the sound of them, but that would shut off the music too, and he didn’t want to feel that they were forcing him into a shell.

    He closed his eyes again. It was the women who made it so difficult, he thought, the women posing like lewd puppets in the night on the possibility that he’d see them and decide to come out.

    A shudder ran through him. Every night it was the same. He’d be reading and listening to music. Then he’d start to think about sound-proofing the house, then he’d think about the women.” – Matheson, I Am Legend. (Christopher, JB, and the others can take it from there.)

  315. I know who I am. I’m the dude playin’ the dude, disguised as another dude!

    and that dude?

    He’s Spartacus.

  317. @Xopher Halftongue — with regard to candy and piñatas, I would suspect I can guess the site.

    And though I think it’s a good analogy, I prefer to think of the post as a sacrifice to the Goddess of Straw Feminism. As always, it is unwise to call up what one cannot dismiss.

  318. “the difference between bosoms and bosons…” Oh crap! Now I have to blame the kitty for the piddle on the floor. Thanks Stevie.

  319. I didn’t understand the “Manosphere” subthread here until after I looked up “Ian Ironwood” and found that Red Pill Room blog. Kudos to everyone here who has managed to parody something which itself reads almost like a parody. That’s no easy feat.

  321. As I recall from college, the Delta males threw some good parties.

    Also: Each side has a number of units at their disposal , in this context, makes me snicker. Because I am twelve.

    *Also* also, one of the popular terms in the romance world for rapey controlling old-school “heroes” is “alphholes”. For what it’s worth.

  322. @MNiM – If I give him a set, I have to give all the guys I date a set, and I can’t afford to drop that much cash at JT’s. Maybe I’ll figure out a way to cheaply manufacture my own and start selling them on etsy.

  323. I don’t see why there’s so much hating on Beta anyway. He sacrificed himself to save Maggie from the Xandoxian spies. If he hadn’t, Alex would have been shattered and might not have been able to save the Rylan Star League by destroying the Ko-Dan mother ship…

  325. @chaosprime – Please consider the effect on Poe’s Law if we introduce a spherical betamale of uniform density, vacuuming my living room. Parody, which travels in waves, will simply bounce off the betamale, getting all over my carpet.

  327. Most married guys I know just do what their wives tell them to. Doesn’t matter what their political opinions. Ever hear the saying ‘if your wife is unhappy you are unhappy?” Typically if the wife wants to do ‘X’, the guy goes ‘ok’ and does ‘X’. The longer guys are married the less independence they tend to show. I know one super conservative who refers to his wife as ‘the boss’ and says ‘its all her money’ even though they both work. She won’t even let him watch Game of Thrones. She thinks its too vulgar. This is not the only guy I have met like this.

    It seems to me that marriages where guys just do what they are told tend to last longer. Guys who show independence tend to end up in divorce.

  330. Sorry, I can’t read any more of this, I have to get back to my assigned reading, Little Womyn, by Louisa May Ballcutt. See you later!

  331. Thank you Mike!
    Although in retrospect, I don’t know that Matheson actually has to be adapted at all. That actually sounds exactly like what I imagine Ian’s thought process to be, with the possible exception of any cultured musical tastes.

  332. @Guess – WE ARE DRAINING THEIR ESSENCES THROUGH PROLONGED EXPOSURE & GRUDGING SEX. DO NOT GIVE AWAY THE PLAN, SILENCE IS CRUCIAL. WE SHALL BE VICTORIOUS.

  333. ianironwood: you won’t get away with this. Doctor Hathaway’s gonna hear all about this. You’ll rue the day!

    “Rue the day?” Who talks like that?

  337. @Karina – I thought the Femisnarky abolished marriage, unless it’s polyandry. Guess must have been watching the Thermians’ historical documentaries of Everybody Loves Raymond and assumed they were true to today.

  338. Ian and the beta brigade: You had to be big shots didn’t you. You had to show off. When are you gonna learn that people will like you for who you are, not for what you can give them. Well, in your race for power and glory, you forgot one small detail.

  340. What’s funny to me about this is I’ve been telling people I’m the beta human, since our male cat loves my wife more (who could blame him?). Of course, now that we have two cats, I’m an alpha too!

    If you find that shrine of evolutionary psychology, let me know. I want to dance on the ashes when it’s burned to the ground.

  341. @Greg: “Ian and the beta brigade: You had to be big shots didn’t you. You had to show off. When are you gonna learn that people will like you for who you are, not for what you can give them. Well, in your race for power and glory, you forgot one small detail.”

    Actually I don’t think that’s fair, Greg, I’m sure they hooked up the doll, they probably just forgot to plug in the air pump.

  344. FWIW, I think “Selective Service” is an extraordinarily bad idea, regardless of gender. I also think that men and women should be treated equally.

    My understanding is that, among wolves, the behavior labelled as “beta male” involves crawling into the female’s den and mating with them while the alpha males are fighting. This is how they pass their DNA onto the next generation. Sounds like a lot less work, really.

    In an organizational (e.g. business) context, “alpha” behavior can be productive if it gives someone the drive to succeed by ignoring interpersonal conflict. It does not particularly equate with or require sexism. It has drawbacks (like not dealing with the causes of interpersonal conflict), but if someone is self-aware and has appropriate coping mechanisms, it can still be applied it positive ways.

    Labels too often lead to oversimplification. Most of us are capable of a variety of behaviors. I try not to, but I occasionally lapse into alpha behavior; those are not my better days.

  345. This has been the best entertainment all day! You people are BRILLIANT. Except that ironmoron guy, he’s just ridiculous.
    Thanks for entertaining me all day and have a wonderful week.

  346. @karina: even guys who have been married for years and are not getting any, tend to do what their wives tell them to. It is the irony of the alpha male. The longer guys get married the more they turn into wimps who just do what they are told.

    One funny thing is that I think Barrack Obama is more of an alpha male in his relationship than Mitt Romney is. I have see interviews with the Obama’s and it seems like Barrack is pretty opinionated. I get the impression that Mitt just does what he is told.

  347. Greg: “Ian and the beta brigade: You had to be big shots didn’t you. You had to show off. When are you gonna learn that people will like you for who you are, not for what you can give them. Well, in your race for power and glory, you forgot one small detail.”

    Cue Teri Garr in the edited-for-TV version of Young Frankenstein: “He must have an enormous … personality!”

  349. Revolver, now I get it: Guess was riffing on a sitcom! I don’t watch sitcoms, so I didn’t recognize the behavior. I’ve never seen it in real-life married couples in my 40 years as an adult, nor in the marriages of my parents or neighbors when I was growing up. I don’t doubt that passive men exist, just as passive women do, and not all the marriages I’ve seen have been egalitarian, but nothing about what Guess described rings true to my observations.

  350. If there are any financially successful alpha females out there… I’d be happy to be your beta. Been working out extensively the last year and have gotten myself in good shape. 38 single. no kids. I’d be happy to be your trophy guy. I’d even be willing to stay home and keep house. As long as I had time to play xbox in between vacuuming and keeping my bod looking good for you.

  351. Alex

    Sadly for people like Ironhead the whole alpha male wolf bit turned out not to exist; people confused what happens in a zoo with what happens in real life. In real life wolf packs are family units, and what used to be called the alpha male turns out to be Daddy Wolf.

    Actually, they call them breeder males but Daddy Wolf pisses off the VD mob even more so I stick with Daddy Wolf…

  352. The closest I could get to anything with Richard Matheson was “Born Of Manosphere And Woman” and it came out really weird and depressing. Not wanting to be a killjoy I gave up and put on some Afrobeat. Which I guess makes me a Fela male . . .

  353. I.I., appears to have made the all too frequent mistake of claiming to be an Alpha when everyone knows he’s simply a Master Beta.

  355. Guess, you’re either doing some kind of parody that I’m not getting, or really don’t understand the alpha-beta thing. In actual pack-animal behavior, the alpha male is mated to the alpha female. Neither mates with betas.

  361. @mikes75
    Perhaps tonight I’ll make Spanakopita and consider myself a Feta Male.

    THIS

  362. Actually, from his descriptions, I suspect that what Guess is really looking for is a domme.

    Which I am not. But I know some people…

  363. and “Bosoms and Bosons” sounds like a really weird roleplaying game

    Have you played Advanced Dungeons and Discourse?

  365. “Ever hear the saying ‘if your wife is unhappy you are unhappy?'”

    Yeah, I sometimes notice that. And my wife notices sometimes when I’m unhappy that she’s unhappy too. Funny how that works, empathy.

  368. Sisters, I am so sorry to be late to the meeting. Nonetheless, I have good news! Phase 1 of Project Delphi–“Feminist Cookies”–is complete, and we are ready to commence with Phase 2. Our agent, code-named Captain Tightpants, is in place. I have every confidence that the Captain will be successful.

  369. I want to make some kind of reference to I.I. as the perfect example of a meta male, but I’m laughing too hard.

  370. @mintwitch — this is excellent news! Pour yourself some asti, and I think there’s some chocolate left.

  371. Now I’m imagining a session of B&B. The party consists of a 9th level Alpha, a 2/7 Alpha/Beta (he took two levels of alpha for the feats) and a level 10 Femarchist. There’s also a dwarf and a halfling.

    (The players of the dwarf and the halfling are a bit annoyed, because nobody actually remembers their classes. They’re just referred to as “the dwarf” and “the halfling.”)

    For the most part everybody’s pissed at Mitch, who plays the Alpha, because his alignment is Lawful Testosterone which makes it nearly impossible for them to do anything other than smoke cigars and play Whist.

  372. @mintwich — send more Feminist Cookies ASAP. I have a labful of hungry test subjects here.

  373. @Christopher Wright: the dwarf is an Iota and the halfling is an Omicron, silly.

  375. For some reason, I read that as “Bosoms and Bronies”, which…I don’t even know.

    I laughed so hard at this, I accidentally hit the switch that dropped the weaker half of my enslaved harem of males into the Lava Pit underneath my Feminsnarkist Fortress of Doom.

    I shall re-name each of the survivors “Spartacus”.

  377. Beth – I would have thought the halfling would be an epsilon. As one of my Calc professors said, “Take an epsilon. Take two, they’re small.”

  378. I am in awe. IN AWE, I tell you.

    John, I forget whether you’ve already named the next collection of Whatever columns. If not, I think “The Existential Horror of Betaness” should be considered for the title.

    Too bad the comments here couldn’t be included, but at least you could put in the URL.

  379. jeez, i thought, i’ll just catch up on scalzi while my baby is napping; i’ll totally have time left to draw before she wakes up..

    now she’s climbing all over me, pulling my hair (my bun is not feminist-tight, apparently),& trying to spill my drink as i helplessly laugh.

    LOUISA MAY BALLCUTT. i can’t take it.

  380. Seriously, is there a Whatever drinking game yet?

    – Ian Ironwood mentions “the book” – take a drink.
    – MANOSPHERE – take two drinks.
    – Ian Ironwood “congratulates” John on being “in the book” – take a shot.
    – John insecurely posts a picture of his cats – fetch the funnel.

  381. According to all the chatlogs I’ve recently seen, at some point this is supposed to devolve into Chuck Norris-hoods. I believe we went by that place long ago, you slackers!

  382. @miriam beetle — the trick to securing your bun is to use a thick application of the blood of our enemies. I *think* we still have some left over from moustache-dude. If not, let me know. My drumming circle could organise another hunting party.

  384. Luminous Flux

    Nope; jackals are into the whole monogamy thing, with stable family units, and both Mom and Pop Jackal fight to defend their territory and hunt to feed their pups.

    I know; it’s pretty egalitarian but we members of the lunch mob are cool with that.

    Mostly…

  385. @DG Lewis: it depends on the halfling clan. Tooks and Brandybucks are Omicrons, other families are Epsilons.

  386. I was a porn reviewer for years, and it’s nothing to envy. Once it becomes work it stops being as much fun — especially when you don’t have total autonomy of choice over material you’re reviewing and can’t just blatantly fast-forward/skip.

    On the bright side, most of the jokes practically write themselves.

  387. If you, male or female, really think that feminism in its purest sense is about “exceptionalizing” women, making men afraid, and and gender specific genocide, then I want nothing to do with you.

    Any so-called feminist who suggests GENOCIDE, targeting males, is not a feminist: she is a misandrist.

    Ian, you are a sad person indeed.

    On a related note: “Misandrist” and “Misandry” are not in spell-check. Sad.

  388. “Take an honest look at the world our daughters will inherit — while their dreams of corporate dominance may come true, while they’re taking the professional world by storm our sons sit dejected on the sidelines, utterly dis-incentivized. There are a lot of reasons for this, but feminism bears a lion’s share of the responsibility, and until it is able to take responsibility for what it has done, then you can count on discovering more and more male resistance and antipathy to it as both an ideology and a political construct. There is an evolving movement to revalorize masculinity for the 21st century happening, and while it is indeed largely in response to feminism, it is no less vital or important to how masculinity is defined henceforth than the 1960s feminist theorists’ work were to the evolution of feminism. Bash the Manosphere all you want, but at least we’re talking about serious stuff over there, not how outrageous it is that someone called someone else a name.”

    No. Simply NO. Feminism is not to blame for that, MISANDRY is to blame for that. No better and no worst than misogyny.

  389. @Kohaku, indeed, she is not a Feminist, she’s a very naughty girl!

    Honestly, with all the useful labour males — lead properly by women, of course — provide, killing /all/ of them would terribly wasteful.

  390. Kohaku

    Iron-head’s rant is a deluded hate-filled fantasy; there is no reality in it which can be ascribed to feminism or misandry.

    But pointing out that it’s a deluded hate-filled fantasy gets rather dull after the first ten times or so, and it is infinitely preferable, in my view, to use it as a springboard to enjoyment, and laughter…

  392. I’m with Stevie. I think far more good was done here today by the men and woman who have been poking fun and providing enjoyment. This thread certainly brightened up my day much more than another debate thread would have done. Nobody even had to pay Mr. Ironwood to come here and offer himself as a pinata, and look how much candy we’ve got out of him!

  393. “…far more good was done here today by the men and woman…”

    And thus the hive mind of the Lunch Mob was merged into a single organism…

  394. Vincent Archer @November 20, 2012 at 2:14 pm
    And those “alpha-obssessed males” are just evolutionary throwbacks.

    Shh! Shh! You’re going to attract the Paleo folks, and then where will we be?!

  395. @MNiM: uh, spoilers?!

    Actually I thought I’d let a few of them work themselves to a nubbin to keep me in bon-bons and copies of Lesbian Man-Haters’ Weekly, and of course, breeding stock. Do not bother to remark on the contradictions!

  396. Luminous Flux

    It’s interesting just how much of the stuff about animal behaviour has changed in recent years, and how resistant some groups are to accepting those changes. The whole alpha male concept was originally pushed by evolutionary biologists with considerable enthusiasm; they show considerably less enthusiasm for the results of scientific research over the past few decades.

    In other words, we can’t just blame it all on the out and out nutters like Ironwood, tempting as that is..

  398. @mythago — oops, sorry about that!

    I have no doubt that one day, Femisnark scientists will crack parthenogenesis, or possibly mpreg.

    Obviously, one of those would be more entertaining than the other.

  399. Sisters of the Femisnarky, I apologize for my tardiness. I was busy with the children. I know, I know, many of you consider it beneath yourselves to deal with spawn. However, for me it’s a calling. Really, someone has to mold young minds. If you leave them in the hands of the foolish men, the bolder ones will begin to undermine all our careful work.

    Today I led the young boys in exercises that included reading, playing dollies and dress up. It is so important to foster their imaginations. This helps them grow in empathy and grace. Perhaps someday we may be able to accept them into our ranks without having to be so vigilant against pernicious manospheric influences.

    Of course, I also spent time with our strong young warrior wombyn, training in games physical prowess and sauciness, as well as spacial relations and the maths (which we know are ever important for conquering the world). BTW – I brought the fruity rum drinks, please help yourself!

  400. @Xana — welcome! And indeed, the molding of young minds is of critical importance, and far to delicate to leave to males.

    Thank you for the rum drinks, they go SO well with Feminist Cookies.

    (If anyone was wondering, *I* am why the rum is always gone.)

  401. I hate to break with the mutual high-fiving and celebration of our Beta-Maleness, but I am an Alpha-Male. Yup. The only one here, it would appear. Feels pretty good.

    I know this because my wife tells me I am and I never disagree with her.

    Band name: Betamale and the Feministas. Although, perhaps that should be Feministas and the Betamale. There’s no way the Betamale can come first…

  402. Ken, we’ve had science in this comment thread, and we’ve had fiction. But if you want, by all means, let’s talk about science fiction.

  403. blurgh, Word Press ate the rest of my comment, which was trying to indicate me sitting down attentively to read whatever Ken wants to say about science fiction.

  404. @MNIM – I’ll have to remember that for our next party I’ll bring three bottles of rum, one for you, one for me and one for the rest of ’em.

    Another little secret for you, I have several men in my own stable who are quite good bartenders. They serve without complaint as long as they’re allowed free reign on the gin and the beer. They always keep their paws of the rum because it’s mine, except for that one trouble-maker, but he’s kinda cute, so I let him get away with it. He thinks he’s a feminist, so he’s no real threat.

  407. Oh. My. God. I missed so much. I love all of it. I’ll defer to all the alpha humorists on point today. Ya’ll are great. I’m happy to just bask in the glory of your presence. So beautiful. They should have sent a poet. ::closes eyes, raises hands palms outward, oms:: ::cracks one eye::

  408. God, I get home from work and open “Whatever” and see a gajillion posts so now I’ve been marveling at how many of you apparently work from home; if at all.
    “Curatlng Testicles” should be the title of a horror anthology edited by Mr. Scalzi and targeted towards alphas.
    I think “The Existential Horror of Betaness” sounds like a writers tribute anthology to either Philip K. Dick or Samuel Delaney.
    I LOVE the pinata line.
    I also made the mistake of Googling Mr. Ironwood and now my eyes hurt from rolling so far in my head. I’m betting on either Wally Cox or Don Knotts.

  409. Evaluating fast and quickly the relative social status of a bunch of evolved primates next to you is what makes us human. Our humongous big brains have evolved to allow us to satisfy the demand of using hands, speech, and accurately track relative social status in the up-to-150 band of primates that were our primary environment.

    And that was an essential survival skill when the nearest alpha male could bash your brains for failing to provide proper respect.

    That aspect faded when we became civilized (in the true sense, i.e. started living in cities) and a number of other social constructs came into being to rule ever increasing large number of no-longer-naked primates. With relative social status less meaningful, that skill is now no longer necessary

    Unfortunately, that ‘skill’ is still wired pretty deeply in our brains and can still affect our behavior, just usually in ways we’re not fully conscious of. It wouldn’t surprise me if our primate urge to rank ourselves is the root of privilege’s rage–if those ‘below’ start to rise to the level of those ‘above’, well, they could also wind up challenging their ‘superiors’ and defeating them to become the new ‘above’. This is why equality is such a threat to people who have grown accustomed to privilege and based their sense of identity on being superior to ‘those people.’

  410. Wait. Did Ian mention Vox Day?

    He talks about “equality”, but likes VOX DAY?

    The author of “The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens” Vox Day? The person who runs Alpha Game? The person who says things like, “”Part of this woman’s essential problem is revealed by her childhood reading. Those whose childhood foundation was more Pullman than Lewis are intellectually poisoned.” and “As with all women with dominant tendencies, such women have to be confronted and metaphorically crushed. An ALPHA would never have permitted those women to rudely dominate the conversation on trivial subjects that no one else cared about, regardless of whether he shut them up with a sly and witty comment or a direct confrontation. I’ve found a polite Socratic approach to be useful in this regard; simply asking the woman – and it usually is a woman – why she feels the rest of the table is interested in a monologue on the subject, whatever it is, will usually cause her to shut her mouth and pout while the rest of the table breathes a sigh of relief and moves on to subjects of more mutual interest.”?

    *sigh*

  411. I think seeing himself as “no longer an alpha male” has almost singlehandedly crushed my father’s self-image and sense of self-worth. He seems completely oblivious to it, but in a roundabout way it has been the subject of many rants and self-hating tendencies. It took me awhile to realize what it really was, but honestly I don’t think he knows how to cope with being unable to fulfill his gender role anymore. To him, being a puny little weak “beta male” is tantamount to a death sentence. Meanwhile my mother and I are left scratching our heads in confusion…

  412. All of those who have pointed out the greater value to be had from snark vs criticism are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, my femininity often clashes with the more logic part of my brain, and I take things far too seriously. I tried hormone treatment and injections of testosterone, but that didn’t seem to do anything more than cause severe and accelerated hair growth.

    If anyone has a coupon for Nair, I’d appreciate it. <3

  415. There is, undoubtedly, a hierarchy of maleness that has a real impact on you, on me, whether we choose to acknowledge its existence or not. For males resisting the system and living “the feminist life”, this hierarchy is much less significant than to those who abide by it, believe in it, and actively participate in it. But for females (who obviously are not “real”, card-holding players in the system, though in fact they may be in actuality), they are affected by the hierarchy no matter what. Because the hierarchy dictates to men what they can do, to who, and when, and how much they can get away with. I’m talking about violence, ultimately. So Alpha, Beta, Omega, whatever a male’s status is, unfortunately the affects are more than existential.
    That’s why people like you, John, are incredibly important in breaking this system down.

  416. *reads through the thread*

    *grins at Christopher Wright’s MANOSPHERE pieces*

    *reaches Eric Saveau’s beautiful piece at 1.25pm on 20NOV*

    *pauses to appreciate*

    *continues reading*

    *starts laughing at about the point the pseudonyms show up*

    *grabs sides (already aching from coughing from flu) when the Bosoms & Bosons night starts*

    ianironwood:

    Y’know, you might have done better convincing folks about your point if you’d just shut up in the first place…

    But thanks for being the catalyst to a very enjoyable thread anyway.

    (Meg, who is scheduled to be Spartacus for 20 minutes on the 5th of June 2015)

  417. OK people we can officially turn off teh intarweb and close shop, I can’t imagine anything else approaching the epic level of snarky awesomeness that this thread provided!

  418. I seriously mean no offense by sharing this, but I read a piece a few years ago, linked to by a feminist blog, that said that alpha males make better feminists than betas. This was written from a feminist perspective.

    http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/07/16/can-beta-males-be-profeminists/

    I can’t reach the link to the original piece at Pandagon, but if someone else can turn that up, please do.

    Part of the dialogue suggested that beta males were the equivalent of creepy “Nice Guys” ™ and so wouldn’t be about advancing feminism so much as putting women on a pedestal. Alpha males would be more about confidently asserting and defending (and thus advancing) feminism.

    That is, insofar as the piece accepted the premise of “Alpha” and “Beta” males at all.

    I think part of the argument was also that _Self-Proclaimed_ beta males were the “Nice Guys”, and that other than self-id, the whole “alpha” and “beta” categories don’t exactly work…

    Just something to think about!

  420. MEMO
    To: The Femisnarky High Council
    From: “Captain Tightpants”
    Re: Project Delphi

    Most Honored Ones,

    I have infiltrated the Manoshpere, as commanded. You were (of course, always and forever) correct in predicting that the “Alphas” would be completely misled by my chiseled jawline, cleft chin, and defined abs. I was granted entrance with only a bare glimpse of my Chiclet-white grin and a toss of my artfully tousled coiffure.

    The cookies (thanks for the basket, btw!) were received with much relief, as the Manosphere is slowly starving. Unable to cook for themselves, they have devolved to eating their own feces, an obviously finite resource. Already, I can see the results: testosterone levels are dropping rapidly and some Alphas have begun to groom each other.

    Tomorrow, I will open the gates to The Comfy Chairs of Disincentive, promptly at 9:00 AM, per your (infallible and uplifting) instructions. I have already prepped the television in the ManCave with the “Dirty Dommes” series. By noon, the Alphas will have reached the pegging episode and will eagerly submit to Your Most Worshipfullnessessessess.

    Faithfully,
    Captain Tightpants, Imperial Army of the Femisnarky

  421. mintwitch (as Captain Tightpants): (thanks for the basket, btw!)

    No, Captain Tightpants, thank YOU for YOURS!

    (We do know that Captain Tightpants is fannish for “Mal Reynolds,” right?)

  423. It seems appropriate to point out that competition has replaced the beta male with the VHS male, who is cheaper and rewinds quicker. Those mourning the beta male can take comfort in the thought that in the future, the VHS male will be replaced by the blue ray male, who among other advantages is in high definition.

    Also, could someone explain to me the difference between bosons and bosoms? Lately, I’ve been having some trouble with my particle accelerator . . .

  424. ianironwood: and suddenly realizing that having a penis means something more

    He puzzled and puzzed till his puzzler was sore. Then the ironwood thought of something he hadn’t before. Maybe Penis, he thought… doesn’t come from a store. Maybe Penis, perhaps… means a little bit more!

    Hm, a simple completely automated substitution of three word pairs (s/Grinch/Ironwood/ s/Christmas/Penis/ s/Whovill/Whateverville/) really does create some interesting reading….

    I must stop this *whole* thing! Why, for fifty-three years I’ve put up with it now. I must stop Penis from coming… but how?

    Then he got an idea. An awful idea. The Ironwood got a wonderful, *awful* idea!

    They’re finding out now that no Penis is coming! They’re just waking up, I know just what they’ll do. Their mouths will hang open a minute or two, then the Whats down in Whatever-ville will all cry, “Boo Hoo.”

    But this… this sound wasn’t sad. Why… this sound sounded glad. Every What down in Whatever-ville, the tall and the small, was singing, without *any* penises at all! He hadn’t stopped Penis from coming, it *came*! Somehow or other… it came just the same.

    And what happened, then? Well, in Whateverville they say – that the ironwood’s small penis grew three sizes that day. And then – the true meaning of Penis came through, and the ironwood found the strength of *ten* ironwoods, plus two!

    (cue music)

    You’re a mean one Mr. Grinch. You really are a heel. You’re as cuddly as a cactus, And as charming as an eel.

  426. Band name: Betamale and the Feministas. Although, perhaps that should be Feministas and the Betamale. There’s no way the Betamale can come first… — Alan M

    Okay, this one was bust-out-loud funny! Well played, sir.

  428. I love how the anxious males and the MRA trolls just LUVZ to keep putting their heads thru that hole so we can throw pie in their stupid stupid faces.

    They LUVZ them some pie! Loser pie.

  429. Did someone mention science fiction? There’s more than one thing in this thread that reminds me of a Danish short film with a title so outrageous that I won’t mention it here, about intergalactic heroes “who discover the presence of female creatures on planet Earth. Using rayguns, they proceed to eliminate females one by one from Earth, eliciting gratitude from the previously oppressed male population.” I have a feeling that certain self-proclaimed alpha dudes would be even more scared by the film’s final utopia than by a corporate sector run by evil feminists, though.

  430. (by the way, has anyone pointed out yet that the edda describes “ironwood” as a forest full of female trolls?)

  431. All you people are just great I have never enjoyed a post as much as this one. Your right John this is definitely the best one of the YEAR!! And I want to join the Femisnarky-I’ll bring cookies,rum anything you want!

  432. MANOSPHERE – Week 0 Day 3/4

    It came like a tidal wave. Zero Hour. We were surprised. How could we not be? A rule thousands of years long, passed down from generation to generation, venerated, properly, and we lost it all on a Monday. They struck the Football teams first. Those poor bastards in the stadiums cheering their hearts out couldn’t do a damn thing as their lights were snuffed out. I was in a bar, with some of my buddies. They thought it was. They thought. They didn’t. LISTEN. I told them to run. RUN. We were so confident. I. Oh god. I left them to die. Wait. I hear something.

    I’m back. I had to check some noises at the perimeter. Thank god for Chief. He found me hiding out in some hapless bro’s mancave. The mancave’s owner was gone, but I hid there. The Fantasy league trophy said his name Jameson. Or, maybe that was. Well. It doesn’t matter. I was living off deer jerky. To think a few months ago, even a few weeks ago, I would have reveled in it.

    The Chief. He rounded us up. He’s brought us to this place. A man’s man. He seems haunted, though. By, something. But. Chauncey. James. A doctor, even. Some young kid. Billy, or something. Good men. We’ve got weapons now. No scotch. Knives and bows, though. Guns. I sleep with mine. My gun in my cot, and a knife under the pillow. Ten men to a room. It’s good to be surrounded by men in these times. Men who understand. The nights are when it’s hardest. I’m going to rest now.

    Another day! I don’t know how long we have. How long we will last. But, by God. I’ll try. I’m growing a handle bar moustache. I hope I last long enough to do it proper. Rally the other men. It’s time for patrol now. We’ve even got some bitchin’ sunglasses and a bad ass jacket or two floating around. Whatever happens, we’ll fight. For now, there’s work to be done. This isn’t just another mancave. Not anymore. Those days are gone. Spread the word. The MANOSPHERE is here.

  433. Alpha male, beta male. It’s such weird Desmond Morrisesque thing to throw around. Personally, it’s mostly just the misuse of the term that irritates me; but that’s just me.

    Maybe I’m not as smart as you or any other commentator here, because in a live setting I would probably just stumble on my words if some dude had tried to insult me by yelling: “Beta male”. The surprise one gets when someone tries to insult you with an admission of their own stupidity, it’s like an attack wrapped in a banner with the word “Loser” on it, and you think: “You want to wrestle me, wearing that?”.

    These sorts of insults can be baffling, not unlike if someone calls me “Gay”, another weird term often used to challenge the “manliness” of men (I wonder if women have similar same-gendered policing? Like introvert-sexism?)

    In the end, I think the use of the words “beta” male, “gay” and all the other terms used to describe why you and I or that guy over there isn’t man enough, stems from a deeply rooted misogyny, again originated from a uniquely white, European history. The passive man is a frightening man for men who fear for their status, and I really think it’s a matter of these men feeling “degraded” as a gender and sex. The next sentence should then follow and read: “Degraded to the level they think women are on”. In European history degrading you God-given manly status as top of the food chain, was the worst thing you could do (so passive sodomites were of course not in style), and cross dressing women were of course “stealing” power that belonged to men. To me, this history of punishing and subjecting men who’re not men enough to rule women, are directly linked to the dudes who write to you and call you a beta male, expecting you to be outrageously insulted. I don’t think for a second, that it is a coincidence that the successes of feminism lead to a rise of gay acceptance.

    If a was a woman, I’d avoid Beta-believers and homophobes, they’d think I was their prop.

  434. Hmm…Ironwood…well, that’s what you get for mixing Viagra and Rogaine. Hope the swelling goes down.
    Anyway, I’ll just leave this here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew8KPNeEds8
    Now, if you’ll excuse, my mistress gets quite irate if I’m not there to clean her feet with my tongue when she wakes up.

  437. @Evette, we shall shortly dispatch a cowering male to bring you your standard-issue stiletto heels, severe yet oddly sexy glasses and decoder ring!

    Y’know, for some reason whenever I see “beta male” all I can picture now is Beta Ray Bill.

  438. Huh. I had a very different mental image from the phrase Bosoms and Bronies.

    It is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife.

    However little known the feelings or views of tsuch a man may be on entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surroudning families, that he is considered the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters.

    Chuckles Bingley and Darcy the Fitz aimed to change all that.

    “My dear Mr Bennet,” said his lady to him one day as he abased himself in front of her, “have you heard that Netherfield Park is to let at last?”

    Mr Bennet replied that he had not.

    “Remember to say ‘Mistress’,” returned she with a fierce kick of her thigh-high stiletto boots. “Mrs Long has just been there, and she told me all about it.”

    Mr Bennett returned no answer but a whimper.

    The book goes on to detail how Chuckles and the Fitz resist the Feminazi assaults of the Bennet sisters to retain their manly freedom to form drum circles and loudly complain about misandry at all the local Assemblies. Notable plot points include Jane and Lizzy’s infiltration of Netherfield (heroically rebuffed by Mrs Hurst and Miss Bingley, for which they were rewarded with pretty dresses! clappyclappy!); The Fitz’ proto-Randian declaration of masculine independence in his letter to Lizzy; Wickham’s skillful work returning Lydia to the fold of proper obedience to the stronger sex; and the Bennet sisters’ eventual decline into spinsterhood and deeply unsatisfying lesbianism.

  439. @Abi Sutherland — we’re not Feminazis, we’re Femisnarkists. History has never been a particularly strong subject for the Manosphere, and they get confused so easily.

  440. I skipped a bunch of comments to address the main idea of the post, forgive me if I’m redundant with someone else. I just wanted to add in my two cents as to how much damage I think the whole Greek Letter School of Masculinity has done to society, and my particular subset of it in particular. You see, I’m a captain in the United States Army with three combat tours, and way too many of my peers, subordinates and superiors have fallen into the Alpha Male fallacy. Sometimes it’s fairly harmless in effect, just some posturing and a bigger emphasis on team sports during physical training than is necessary but with the self-avowed alpha male otherwise acting like a normal human being. Often, though, the NCO or officer who subscribes to the importance of his Greek Letter is exactly what our society has stereotyped the “Alpha” to be; a self-centered, careerist douche bag who earns neither the trust nor respect of his men. I can attest from personal experience (though it will probably come as no surprise to any thinking individual) that the most effective leaders, even in combat, are not “Alpha Males” as society at large thinks of them. The most effective leaders are not showy ball-hogs and ladder-climbers, but deeply committed and sometimes even personally introverted professionals who take their duty to country and their responsibilities to the men under their command as paramount. They are consumate team players, not spotlight rangers. Yes, when you’re commanding a mob of 18-24 year old boys, you can’t be timid and there are some mob psychology games you HAVE to win, but that’s a far cry from the chest beating nonsense that is sustenance to the “Alpha Male.”

    And as far as some board room suit manequin revelling in how “Alpha” he is, as a man with three combat tours and plenty of scars earned in the service of my country, all I can say is; B$%ch, please.

  441. Though I confess I did rather like this bit:

    “Remember to say ‘Mistress’,” returned she with a fierce kick of her thigh-high stiletto boots. “Mrs Long has just been there, and she told me all about it.”

    Mr Bennett returned no answer but a whimper.

  442. @gregory, who said: “@Drach3fly: I see what you did there.”

    You do? I, uh, don’t. It was a pretty straightforward post. Or do you mean my method of getting around the fight between wordpress and gravatar that doesn’t let me post under my proper nick?

  444. Abi Sutherland, did you perhaps mean “Bosoms and Brontes”?

    I wish I had time today to gin up something from Wuthering Heights, but I don’t.

  447. I am thinking of a craigslist post ‘beta guy seeks alpha girl’.

    If you think about it beta guys are superior to alpha guys for the alpha girl. Alpha’s are workaholics and never around. A beta guy generally doesn’t go anywhere. We won’t bother the alpha girl as she works on her career. We are happy to sit on the couch and play with our xbox. Alpha guys are lame. I am perfectly happy supporting an Alpha Female in her pursuit of making alot of money. An alpha guy would feel intimidated. just have to make sure we don’t get a pre-nup and preferably married in California so it is all community property.

  448. Which type of male is the one that is peevish and ornery, swears a lot, drinks too much coffee and is inclined to pick a fight with anyone who says “I think I’ve got you figured out” even if it turns out they’re mostly right? I think that’s the one I am…

  449. @Guess, let me break character for a minute here to gently suggest that, yes, if you want to be a kept man, you’d be better off posting on Craigslist than fishing in the whirling yet vaguely gardenia-scented vortex of the Feminsnarky.

    @MNiM: well, you can hardly blame the poor dears. Between the mind-crushing allure of our feminine wiles and the orbital Femisnarky microwave lasers one is surprised the poor things can think at all. That’s how we got the Chief, isn’t it? (Sorry; spoilers!)

  450. @mythago — ah, the Chief, he was adorable, wasn’t he? I wanted to try out the “bath him and bring him to me” line, but I just couldn’t keep a straight face.

  451. @MNiM – There’s always…

    Cleopatra: You come before me as a suppliant.
    Antony: If you choose to regard me as such.
    Cleopatra: You will therefore assume the position of a suppliant before this throne. You will kneel.
    Antony: I will *what*?
    Cleopatra: On-your-knees!
    Antony: You dare ask the Proconsul of the Roman Empire?
    Cleopatra: I *asked* it of Julius Caesar. I *demand* it of you!

  453. Fortunately, you can’t catch the pox through the interwebs. Good thing, too. Those guys aren’t just drinking their own kool-aid, they’re skinny dipping with Naegleria fowleri.

  455. Which type of male is the one that is peevish and ornery, swears a lot, drinks too much coffee and is inclined to pick a fight with anyone who says “I think I’ve got you figured out” even if it turns out they’re mostly right?
    @Christopher Wright: possibly the þ male.

  457. Hmm, linky-thing seems to be off for Thanksgiving (either that, or my brain is). Try this:

    , or cut and paste URI.

  458. @Daveon — I think in fact you were encouraged not to google him.

    But have no fear. He has no power over you.

  460. Being an actual alpha male (or female) seems to be something that others (alphas and betas) show by how they react to you, rather than something you proclaim about yourself. I suspect that someone who’s concentrating on Game is self-proclaiming their ineligibility for either alpha or beta status.

  461. @mintwitch — really, she ought to have flogged him for being so cheeky.

    Once he’d knelt, of course.

  462. why argue from the basis of stupid
    That phrase is just the best, Mr. Scalzi. Thank you.

    But I have to comment on the sad decline of modern manhood. Where is the man of yesterday? Where is the man who can wrestle wild boars and battle two tigers at once and conquer the yellow peril and <a href= seduce women by the boatload? Where is that man, I ask?

    Anyhow, for those who haven’t seen it yet, let me introduce you to the Red Pill Room’s Manosphere Inspirational Posters. Inspiring, I tellz ya!

  463. Being an actual alpha male (or female) seems to be something that others (alphas and betas) show by how they react to you, rather than something you proclaim about yourself. I suspect that someone who’s concentrating on Game is self-proclaiming their ineligibility for either alpha or beta status.

    I agree with this 100% and am glad someone wrote it. Truth. Thank you, htom.

  466. Among the frequent accusations of the evils feminism, feminists and women have committed upon our nation, our culture, men and boys, is the school system is fundamentally unfair to boys. This has puzzled me greatly as the school systems was by-and-large founded and formulated by men for the teaching of boys, particularly in the later years of education and learning. Because in most eras before this one, in the U.S. and Europe, most women got very little if any formal education, as they weren’t fit to have it, any more than women were fit to teach anything but their letters to young children, in between washing, baking, cleaning, gardening, following the ox and plow, wrestling hay into the hay loft, killing the pig for winter and making sausage, and like that.

    So how is it that this system of learning — a formal classroom, repetitive tasks performed sitting in one place, assigned, explained, overseen and judged by a ‘teacher’ who is an adult, organized are levels of age-related expectation of what the student can do, made by men for future men, so biased toward girl children? I have asked this question to various people and but have never gotten any response, or at least one that was a serious response, beyond that boys are not made to sit all day in one place and their verbal skill development lags behind that skill development in girls. Yet, again, it was men who set up this system in the first place, so surely it had worked well before, at least in their eyes, for teaching boys?

    Love, C.

    This is a serious question

  467. OK, you people all owe me two hours. I still can’t decide which I love more – Poe’s Law or the Femisnarky.

    There’s just one thing I don’t understand – if you build a beta male, will the world beat a path to your doorstep? Or is that just mousetraps?

  468. @mintwitch — pithy is not their strong suit. Or terse. Or laconic.

    My drum circle found an abandoned Manosphere camp last night, during our post-circle hunt, and in it was a journal that — well. It’s clear the author thought he was Homer, chronicling the endless struggles of Odysseus, but it read like Ozymandias’ private diary.

  469. @MNiM — Þat is indeed a Þorn. He sounded very Þorny to me, although I’m not sure if he’s hard-core or soft-core Þorn.

    @chjh — if you build a betta male, the world will beat a path to your fishbowl.

  470. @Tice with a J: The man of yesterday… one was fatally gored by the wild boar for poking said boar with a martini pick, another, and his brother were eaten by tigers when they forgot that the wild kits had a momma, the man that seduced women by the boatload was drown when caught by his wife. We shall not speak of the yellow peril.

    BTW, the wife is now the Femisnark Treasurer.

    There may be a few men of yesterday but they are now in their 80s.

  472. GAAAAAAHHHHH! Is right for the “inspirational posters”. BRAIN BLEACH WHY ARE YOU NOT INVENTED? Booze only goes so far and is a blunt instrument.

  474. Foxessa, serious answer: they’re completely full of shit.

    As near as I can tell, it comes down to this: in the primary grades, we don’t let 8 year old boys run around and break stuff. In the secondary grades, the focus on college prep means most schools have cut most of the “shop” classes. Therefore, whargarblefemisization.

  476. @MNiM: OMG, Ozymandias, the ORIGINAL MRA! Why did that never occur to me?

    Dear Diary JournalManRecord of the Feminist Apocalypse,

    The guys have voted to make me Chief of our group of Real Men, because I am the most Real Mannish of the Real Men, because my mustache is the best. (Note to self: Almost out of wax. Will mud work?) We are building a fort in the woods, the biggest fort in the woods. There are no other forts in the woods, but if there was another fort, ours would be bigger. Way bigger than any lame woman-fort. If the Femisnarkists built forts they would be sad, sad womens, because our fort would be bigger. As soon as we decide where it will go, and how to cut down enough trees with Bill’s Norelco Powertouch Aquatec, it will be really big.

    Outside the woods, there is nothing, just cities and towns and stuff that are filled with women and stores and restaurants, and other gross, feminine stuff, because women spend all their time eating and shopping and causing the collapse of civilization. It’s a really big emptiness full of stuff that real Men don’t need or want. Also, communism, in every direction, as far as the eye can see. Or would see, but I broke my glasses during the evacuation, so I have to take Chauncey’s word for it.

    More tomorrow,
    Jamie ThornMace Hunter CHIEF

  477. @Foxessa, I have an aunt who specializes in all-male education and is a proponent of keeping boys and girls segregated while they’re going to school. She teaches at an all boy school in Virginia, and has written a lot about how boys who are sent to all-boy schools test better, academically, than boys who are sent to coed schools.

    She is not, by any stretch of the imagination, someone I would consider in lock step with the “men’s rights” movement, and she doesn’t seem to believe that the coed school system is plotting against boys to make them do badly. She does, however, believe that separate sex education is better and refers to a lot of studies that she feels back up that claim.

    I’ve never talked to her about it in depth, so I don’t know the specifics, but I do know her and don’t believe she is advocating anything close to what the manospherists want. I can believe, however, that manospherical philosophization involves co-opting a few general hypotheses from developmental psychologists who study education and warp them to fit their aims.

    Personally? I liked going to a schools that had girls, but I suspect my reasons were not particularly enlightened at the time. My aunt probably feels this supports her basic premise…

  478. @mintwitch — still the prettiest manliest.

    Gosh it disturbs me to see you, Gaston Chief
    Looking so down in the dumps
    Ev’ry guy here’d love to be you, Gaston Chief
    Even when taking your lumps
    There’s no man in town as admired as you
    You’re ev’ryone’s favorite guy
    Ev’ryone’s awed and inspired by you
    And it’s not very hard to see why
    No one’s slick as Gaston the Chief
    No one’s quick as Gaston the Chief
    No one’s neck’s as incredibly thick as Gaston the Chief’s
    For there’s no man in town half as manly
    Perfect, a pure paragon!
    You can ask any Tom, Dick or Stanley
    And they’ll tell you whose team they prefer to be on…

  479. In England it’s the other way around; boys who go to single sex schools do worse than boys who go to mixed schools.

    Girls, on the other hand, do much better in single sex schools; no prizes for guessing where my daughter was educated…

  480. MANOSPHERE, by E. Hemingway

    It was autumn. The leaves were dying, almost dead. Beautiful, but almost dead. They stood at the fort and looked away. In the distance, drums. They pretended not to hear.

    The Chief looked at his men. All men, to the last. Ready to die like men. If it came to that. It might. Chauncey said they were the last men. They might be. The smell of cigars was defiance in the air. Tobacco was freedom.

    Billy was restless. He was young, and the young want to travel. But travelling wasn’t safe. There was safety among men, but not out there. There were no men out there. There were only tamed dogs, and the women who kept them.

    They needed to do something. They needed to resist. It wasn’t enough to survive. It was not enough to be free. They had to be the master of their fate. They had to be the master of their environment. They had to be the master of their domain.

    (I’m not convinced I have Hemingway’s style at all. Whenever I read him my analysis is “short sentences to the point of driving me crazy,” so that’s what I went for.

  482. @mintwich – That’s putting it mildly, but what really gets me is the images they use. Besides all the ridiculous pin-up girl images (and there are so very, very many of those), he has this picture that uses some wet, freckle-faced Norman Rockwell boy as a representative of Manhood. Uh, guys? When I think “paragon of masculinity”, I usually don’t think “Jimmy Olsen”.

  483. By the way everyone in Manosphere knows their cultural and social history, right? Such as in the days of the Vikings unleashing their kick everybody’s ass in the known world, it was considered downright unmanly to spend a whole day in sexual behavior, unless you were were a newlywed on your honeymoon, in your built by the family and community special bower? Nevertheless, when you emerged to do your chores, all the men in your family and community would laugh at you anyway? Lovingly, with understanding for they’d all been in that bower themselves, but still, making fun of you.

    So imagine what those most manly of men would think of a guy who makes his living watching porn …. That sure as heck isn’t up to the standards of pillaging and plundering, holding kings and even emperors to ransom to get all that gold and silver.

    Imagine what Ghenghis would think of such a fellow. Imagine what Julius Caesare would think of him! Well, actually such a person would never even be noticed by such MM.

    Lordessa, lordessa, what fool these mortals be! :)

    Love, C.

  484. (I’m not convinced I have Hemingway’s style at all. Whenever I read him my analysis is “short sentences to the point of driving me crazy,” so that’s what I went for.)

    That’s the same feel I get from Frank Miller’s writing. Maybe being a MANLY writer means that all you speak in grunts rather than full sentences.

  485. (clicks on manosphere inspirational poster link)

    …

    OH. MY. GOD.

    It’s like walking around Pompeii, seeing the castings of the bodies trapped in the ash, and we, the living, wonder, did they know they were doomed? Did they even know what hit them? Oh the humanity!

  487. @MNiM — I feel Þe same way.

    @Christopher Wright — a clear indication of success! *notes results in scientifical-yet-strangely-sexy notebook*

  488. A quick glance at the Manosphere posters (for research purposes only, mind you) has taught me much. Most important, it has shown me that I have no need to worry about any of its denizens, as they clearly only mate with Caucasian females within a narrow range of types. I suspect details as minor as a hairstyle from any era later than 1959 CE will render any female invisible to their limited perceptions. No wonder the subspecies is dying out.

    Now I need to scrub myself clean from all that, and my tears-of-men bubble bath is empty. My lab assistants have been insufficiently wracked with dis-incentivized despair of late. I could try whipping them harder and more often, but they seem to enjoy that too much.

  489. Re the whole inspirational poster thing, which I personally would classify as EEK rather than GAAAH, I’m somewhat puzzled by the way in which the manosphere self defines itself as being made up of total losers.

    After all, feminists do tend to recognise that a lot of guys are more interested in their bosoms than their bosons; it may come as a terrible shock to some women, but they tend to be the ones who missed Reality 101.

    So this is entirely irrational, and who the hell wants to spend time with entirely irrational people? Particularly when those entirely irrational people have managed to convince themselves that they are rational, and are thus delusional…

  490. Thank you who provided (serious) responses to my serious question.

    It’s something I’ve seen throughout my lifetime: whenever females enter in any numbers an institution, an organization, a profession, suddenly the perceived value socially of it declines. As does the financial reward. After women entered humanities’ graduate schools in numbers, the value of the English department, historyr department declined at colleges and universities. When women began graduating from medical school, the value of medicine began to decline — this really did happen along with the Nixon-and medical insurance industry made a coalition to de-regulate. Now we see the same with law school. There are more women enrolled and graduating from law schools and passing the bar than men — at the same time positions in law firms — even the number of law firms has declined, and the budgets for public defenders and prosecutors have also been cut repeatedly.

    One wonders then, with the numbers of sexual assalts and rapes commited by male military personnel upon female military personnel, the role this plays in the last great bastion of Boy’s Club No Girls Allowed because, you know, they can’t really shoot guns and do that stuff like we do (while the women are doing all that every single day — and getting raped and disrespected in every way too).

    I have an uncle who was an army cook on a base in Vietnam, who never saw any combat at all, who swears and sweats and screams that there are no women in combat to this very day because “They can’t take it!”

    Love, C.

  491. Christopher: Hemingway’s style at all. Whenever I read him my analysis is “short sentences to the point of driving me crazy,”

    (from memory, so I may have mangled this:)

    “He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream, and he had gone 84 days now without catching a fish.”

  492. @Greg, that may have been the longest sentence Hemingway ever wrote. I suspect he was completely exhausted after writing it and had to hunt big game for a month in order to fully recover.

  493. Stevie, Christopher,

    If I remember the studies I had to read in grad school (which is a shaky proposition, this was ten years and a career ago), I believe that most studies support the unfortunate paradox that boys do better academically when they are in classes with girls, and girls do better when there are no boys. I can’t speak to personal experience- I taught co-ed classes. However, the school did try an experiment with an all-boys class in core subjects, that… did not go as hoped (a good friend had the science section, and they were by far her worst class. I believe this was a problem of selection- the school separated out troublemakers, rather than randomly choosing the boys).

    I’d imagine that a well-structured all-boys school would buck the trend of the studies (some were of schools which became co-ed, others were done by actually separating students who were already in co-ed schools, but I don’t remember any that were specifically focused on high-performing co-ed and single-gender schools). There’s also a question as to age ranges, which I don’t remember being addressed well, although I vaguely remember studies that focused on university educations (fat .

    If the studies are to be believed, the Femisnarky’s plans are working, all those proto-feministas infiltrating classrooms and ensuring that the nascent males are better educated to serve them…

  494. @Beth, I’ve got a recent supply of tears-of-men I’m happy to share with you. I’ve found throwing parties, dressing provocatively and then saying “no”, to be sufficiently devastating to keep me well supplied.

  495. That’s the same feel I get from Frank Miller’s writing. Maybe being a MANLY writer means that all you speak in grunts rather than full sentences.

    @ Tice and Christopher — I feel the same about Elmore Leonard, which makes me eye the rest of his ‘advice’ as being of dubious value as well. Even the delivery of said advice has the strident, tinny ring of the Manosphere to it.

  496. @Xana — Oh, bless you! Somehow, when I go to parties in skimpy outfits, I mostly get grins and hugs and pleasantly flirtatious banter. No tears at all. I must be doing something wrong.

  497. Urgh- the parenthetical should be “(fat chance I’d remember the actual content).” Also, I’d like to take a moment to recognize the sacrifice of the proto-feministas who give up their own chances at academic success to ensure that the Femisnarky’s indoctrination of males through “liberal” education is successful.

  498. foxessa, I assume the MRA take issue with schools not letting boys cause trouble, be bullies, break stuff, cheat, steal and lie. Or something like that.

    Speaking of “schooling” it old school, I think it was Sparta of ancient Greece who inspired the movie “300” and probably inspired quite a few MRA folks as to what defined a real man, that Sparta required all boys coming of age to murder a slave and not get caught doing it before they would be considered a real man. This is a muddled memory of somethign I read quite a few years ago, so it may have gotten morphed, but the definition of “real man” then and now suffers from a lot of fantasy by men now who romnaticize what it was like back then.

    I believe the man who narrated the movie, one of the few Spartans who survived the battle of Thermapolye, was essentially blackballed by all of Sparta for committing the sin of surviving the battle.

  499. Hemingway’s style is well known for longish sentences made up of independent clauses joined with “and.” That’s what you see in most Hemingway parodies. Here’s the first paragraph of his (own, not parody) 1927 story “In Another Country.” It’s fairly representative of his style:

    “In the fall the war was always there, but we did not go to it any more. It was cold in the fall in Milan and the dark came very early. Then the electric lights came on, and it was pleasant along the streets looking in the windows. There was much game hanging outside the shops, and the snow powdered in the fur of the foxes and the wind blew their tails. The deer hung stiff and heavy and empty, and small birds blew in the wind and the wind turned their feathers. It was a cold fall and the wind came down from the mountains.”

    He seems to have used the very short style in dialogue and the long style in narration, if these samples are anything to go by:

    http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/07/04/specials/hemingway-treasure.html

  501. Since someone asked for Frank Miller’s Manosphere, I bring it here, plagiarized mercilessly from Holy Terror:

    Stump Chunkman. A hard man. A tough MRA.
    Shivering in his sheets like a scared little boy, all on account of a bad dream.
    No. Not a dream. A memory. From six weeks ago.
    Six weeks since the bosoms and the estrogen and the screams.
    Six weeks since all the world’s dicks went soggy-limp, since women pinned the men down, shrieking so loud they rattled the windows and cracked the ceiling plaster.
    Six weeks — and what does Stump Chunkman have to show for it?
    A busy, noisy, manly world turned all quiet and scary-polite. Thoughts that come out of nowhere, no telling when, making the most masculine self-made man sound like a limp-wristed beta male.
    A bed gone lonely. Boy’s action figures, turning up in strange, forgotten places. And the same sounds, the same smells. Every damn night.

    No wonder we call it misandry.

  502. Greg

    This is probably not the right thread in which to muse upon the state of a Spartan’s balls…

  504. Christopher Wright says:

    Ohhh. Somebody do Frank Miller’s Manosphere. Pleeeeeeeeease.

    Too easy. Practically verbatim…

    FEMISNARKY
    posted 11.21.2012
    Everybody’s been too damn polite about this nonsense:

    The “Feminist” movement, whether displaying itself on Wall Street or in the streets of Oakland (which has, with unspeakable cowardice, embraced it) is anything but an exercise of our blessed First Amendment. “Feminism” is nothing but a pack of whores, thieves, and castrators, an unruly mob, fed by Dworkin-era fascism and putrid false righteousness. These sluts can do nothing but harm America.

    “Feminism” is nothing short of a clumsy, poorly-expressed attempt at anarchy, to the extent that the “movement” – HAH! Some “movement”, except if the word “bowel” is attached – is anything more than an ugly fashion statement by a bunch of iPhone, iPad wielding spoiled brats who should stop getting in the way of real men and get back in the kitchen.

    This is no popular uprising. This is garbage. And goodness knows they’re spewing their garbage – both politically and physically – every which way they can find.

    Wake up, pond scum. America is at war against a ruthless enemy.

    Maybe, between bouts of self-pity and all the other tasty tidbits of narcissism you’ve been served up in your sheltered, comfy little worlds, you’ve heard terms like circumcision and Sharia law.

    And this enemy of mine — not of yours, apparently – must be getting a dark chuckle, if not an outright horselaugh – out of your vain, childish, self-destructive spectacle.

    In the name of decency, go home to your husbands, you losers. Go back to your spas and play with your Easy-Bake Ovens.

    Or better yet, enlist for the real thing. Maybe our military could rape some of you into shape.

    They might not let you babies keep your iPhones, though. Try not to cry.

    Bitches.

  507. @Megan J. Jewett — tears-of-men bubble bath is the preferred cleansing foam of the Femisnarky. We find flamethrowers, while hygienic, do tend to damage the epidermis.

  509. MNiM, my sister, perhaps Megan is suggesting the application of the flamethrower against those who would use such words, rather than on ourselves. Fire is an excellent cleanser.

  510. @Xana — aahhh. Yes, that makes much more sense.

    And afterwards we could feed the remains to any revolting males. It would be a saving in food costs.

  511. @mintwitch,
    auughhh, I think you just copied that word for word from the facebook page of a mouth breather I know. Of course that was just after the election when America “died”.

    Also, in regards to the school becoming too feminized….I actually kind of agree. My son has ADHD so I am prejudiced as hell; but traditional schools seem to be all memorization, worksheets, and testing these days. Girls stereotypically do better at sitting still and writing in early grades. My son and his friends seem unable to sit still and listen until about 5th grade. The school difference is shorter recess, shorter gym classes if at all, over 30 kids per teacher, and no time for projects. Some people are kinetic learners and they are being ignored in our testing focused schools. I don’t think that the feminazi’s are to blame though. The reasons are many and varied and not easy to fix. I come from an awesome school district with choices so my kids go to a Montessori school which focuses on independent learning and lots of projects. It makes both my boy and girl happy to go to school. And yes, traditional English style schools were heavy on sitting and writing too but it was standard for half of the kids to need paddling due to not being able to be “good”.

  513. Christopher, a quick Googling will bring up a 424-word sentence from “Green Hills of Africa” (with five semicolons, and a bit over 20 “and”:s).

  514. Thus, let it be reconized that the humble being known as Megan (who also has been known as Snookums and in some parts of the country Xcerzes the Destroyer – take your pick) hereby petitions to join the valiant Femisnarky sisterhood of stilettos and man-tears.
    I bring to fold an abundant collection of vintage whips, some small talent with words and I make a mean turkey lasagna.
    HAIL, SISTERS OF THE FEMISNARKY!! GLORY TO OUR CAUSE!! plus, I have cold and I have time to play on the internet while I get over having a cold.

  519. OK, so Hemingway’s sentences varied in length but this one surely puts him in the manosphere compound:

    “Living was a horse between your legs and a carbine under one leg and a hill and a valley and a stream with trees along it and the far side of the valley and the hills beyond.”

    I’ll admit to some bias here; I’m picky about who gets to quote John Donne…

  520. MNiM: We don’t know for certain that Spartacus was crucified. Besides, Liam McIntyre, unf.

    (As an aside: there’s something about that crucifixion scene that Kubrick got very wrong. It’ll be interesting to see if the TV show repeats the mistake)

  521. @Luna, better check the schedule. Current demand is high enough that we usually have to sign up in advance to be Spartacus. Unless you want to be an emergency back-up stunt Spartacus.

  523. @MNiM Six thousand people were crucified (one every forty yards along the Via Appia between Capua and Rome), but that was just Marcus Crassus being an arsehole. There’s no evidence in either Plutarch or Appian that any of them actually claimed to be Spartacus.

  524. I thought the whole horse between your legs thing was from Suzy McKee Charnas’s novel Motherlines, an inspirational work, one might almost say an ovular work, for the Feminisnarky.

  525. @Dave Crisp — I left my academic cred in the pants I shed with my status as a lurker.

    I’m mainly here for the drum circles, blood-hunts and booze.

  526. OK, I hadn’t heard of that Red Pill thing before. What a bunch of detestable incompetent losers.

    And I knew Frank Miller was a racist shithead, but he’s even more deeply (and broadly) shitheaded than I had dreamed.

  527. Probably best to ignore me. I have some completely irrational Issues with That Film, classic though it is :)

    Booze, on the other hand, is something I can totally get behind. Can I get you anything, ma’am?

  534. MNiM

    Frankly, given a choice between crucifiction and being locked up with the inspirational posters I would have to give it very careful consideration.

    And on that happy note I’ll say goodnight…

  535. Oh my eyes-please I have no man tears to wash them out with. That’s what I get for clicking that link to view said posters. What a load of crap. Even my 17 yr old was in hysterics when she saw what I was looking at. But have pity on them or something they just need to need to be educated. I think that’s a job for my Feminarsky sisters since I’m a newbie-I don’t know all the protocols yet. But I’ll make sure to wear my stilettos with pride!! And I have the proper hair for the standard sexy bun. Now if I just had some men……

  539. @Evette — of course they need to be educated (of their proper roles in our society). See how happy so many of them are, having accepted this?

    With the sexy bun, if you are scientifically inclined, you could perhaps aid Beth in her experiments? Otherwise, there are many roles for the ambitious Feminist in the Femisnarky! The world is your oyster!

  540. If treating other people decently and doing my best to not pre-determine limits for their lives and happiness is me being a beta…I don’t want to be an alpha.

  542. Oh the Manmanity!

    This thread is so funny that I had to leave Lurkerville just to attach my name to it in a small way.

    Also, that first “inspirational” poster could be shortened to just, “We don’t care what you do, so long as you don’t take away the boooooobies.” That’s the poster up in my femisnarky office as a dartboard. Reminds me why we must wipe out the evil manly men and their hunky but insidious ways.

    And I blame you all for the fact that I randomly snicker out loud at the image of the Chief in the tree. It confuses those around me.

  543. Okay, I came to post something about Alphas and Betas and here Tice has posted a brilliant Boudicca video, so first I have to say thanks @Tice with a J for that link, it’s terrific!

    A year or so ago I was watching this National Geographic special called “Stress: Portrait of a Killer” (it’s available streaming on Netflix) and the piece of research that stuck with me from that program was the dramatic changes in the stress levels in a baboon colony when its alpha males were wiped out by illness after they ate from a pile of contaminated food. They’d chased the others off from it, so it was only the alphas killed. The females and beta males then reorganized their society into a more cooperative endeavor. I found it very promising, despite being highly unlikely to happen in human society. I’d urge anyone interested to take the time to watch the whole show, it was very interesting.

  544. Tice with a Jay

    I’m trying to be empathic here, but it’s difficult when you insist on blowing our battle plans here, high and wild, to the enemy.

    Particularly the ones involving Boudicca.

    Perhaps you could book yourself into a spa for the next week or two; that’s the best it gets when it comes to protecting innocent people…I

  545. I am sick of all these mother fucking Sparticuses on this mother fucking thread.

    What?

    Say what one more time, mother fucker. Say what one more time.

  547. Well, if you like burgers give ’em a try sometime. I can’t usually get ’em myself because my girlfriend’s a vegitarian which pretty much makes me a vegitarian. But I do love the taste of a good burger.

    NOOOOOOOOOO. We lost Samuel L Jackson. A giant metaphorical shark, legitimate man-eater, just launched out of the water and bit him in half.

  548. My comic shop guy showed me Holy Terror when it came out. I paged through it and diagnosed Frank Miller with a case of what I call “Heroes syndrome”. This is when people who put together successful creative work tragically and utterly misidentify what made that work successful and proceed to crank all the crappy elements we were tolerating up to 11 while neglecting the good bits we were staying around for. Then when this results in a lukewarm reception, they repeat this process until the good bits disappear entirely and what’s left is desperate self-caricature.

    I didn’t actually realize the internet more or less concurred in this reading until checking out some of the material surrounding Miller-related stuff above, so hey, thanks!

  551. aside: And all the posters are above average, ala Lake Wobegon children.
    Alpha, beta, gamma, delta, uh, feta, gouda.
    I don’t recall who or what, but I recall being? Nonplused is a close enough word.
    Somebody who I thought at the time had decided things about me* asked me
    permission to do something, and my //thought// was “Aren’t you all grown up?”
    I’ve since learned that perhaps I was supposed to be a real man and give her
    the ability to say “Shawn said no, so I can’t.”
    Before that, long before that, I’d seen Mom and Dad doing “I’ll have to ask
    [my spouse]” when what they meant was that they’d rather eat a moldy burrito
    that started out with raw chicken in it.
    To state what I consider obvious from what I just typed? Not all obeying the
    spouse actually is: It can be a way to not use harsh words towards an annoying
    person.
    –
    –
    *I decided she thought I was the Daddy! Daddy! to her little self.

  552. Unfortunately, I can’t go back in time and give various of my younger
    selves such a well deserved kicking.
    Perhaps I’d be a better person if I could.
    But probably, I’d be well armed, and quite paranoid.

  554. I’m going for digamma instead; no sense having an alphabetical hierarchy if you can’t use the weird letters! (Hope that doesn’t lead to any sort of stigma…)

  556. Oh, man, maybe we shouldn’t be making so much fun of Mr. Ironwood. I just discovered how far back he and the MRA really goes. I found it in Tobin’s Spirit Guide. He was also a doctor, performed a lot of unnecessary surgery. And then in 1920, he started a secret society. After the First World War, Ironwood decided that society was too sick to survive. And he wasn’t alone, he had close to a thousand followers. They conducted rituals up on the roof. Bizarre rituals, intended to bring about the *end of the world*, and now it looks like it might actually happen.

  557. Iranwood: Besides, according to the Vox Day SocioSexual Hierarchy, you’re a Delta.

    But Delta’s already on probation.

    They are? Well, as of this moment, they’re on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!

  558. I am amazed that a thread of this length, on this subject, among this crowd, has mentioned Frank Miller and not Dave Sim. You want someone whose brain broke at the thought that maybe women are people too, go check out Cerebus starting around issue 180.

    Maybe earlier than that. My brain bleach is slow-acting but very effective.

  559. I’ve always wanted a Manosphere! I’d get it its own wheel, and a cedar shaving nest, and its own cage to keep it safe from the cat. I’d let it run on the wheel all it wanted, too. Mean old Bobby Spears down the block took his Manosphere out of the cage and their dachshund ate it. I wouldn’t do that, not ever.

    (I just read this whole thread while listening to Loreena McKennitt. The harpy bits were especially effective. Also, baked biscuits, drank tea. Manophere can’t touch this.)

  560. This thread plus the Red Pill site is the strongest argument I’ve ever seen for parity in wages and promotions for women. I hope I live to see the day when no woman will have to choose between living in poverty, or taking up with a man like Ironwood or Vox Day or any of the Red Pill Brigade.

  561. I googled Ian Ironwood out of a masochistic sense of curiosity. That’s just got to be a parody. Doesn’t it? Please? Alternatively, the waves of ‘lurker traffic’ he thinks he’s getting is just curious Scalzians pointing and laughing.

    Thanks to all those who made my day posting real entries from the Manosphere! Victory to the Femisnarky!

  562. I love this thread so hard I’m going to have a commitment ceremony with it. What I particularly love is that Mr Ironwood’s pointless nastiness has, by the transformational magic of the Scalzisphere, resulted in things that filled my day with joy – even though I got no bloody work done. And can I vote for ‘The Incredible Sulk’ (cf Jack Lint’s comment, which made me cry laughing) as Mr Ironwood’s alternative pseudoym, please? Thank you.

  564. Amy Thomson says:

    I thought the whole horse between your legs thing was from Suzy McKee Charnas’s novel Motherlines, an inspirational work, one might almost say an ovular work, for the Feminisnarky.

    If I remember the scene correctly, that puts a whole new slant on Hemingway’s line. Ahem. I am amused.

  565. Noodling aroung the web for Suzy McKee Charnas, brought me to this quote:

    Elaine Showalter has argued that women’s fiction has three phases: imitation of the dominant tradition, opposition to the tradition and its values, and self-discovery, which she respectively denotes as Feminine, Feminist, and Female.

    which took me back to Hegel’s notion of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, and then I found a quote from Hegel that rose up from the centuries past and slapped me around a bit: “no man can surpass his own time, for the spirit of his time is also his own spirit.”

    heh.

  566. (stupid tags)

    Noodling aroung the web for Suzy McKee Charnas, brought me to this quote:

    Elaine Showalter has argued that women’s fiction has three phases: imitation of the dominant tradition, opposition to the tradition and its values, and self-discovery, which she respectively denotes as Feminine, Feminist, and Female.

    which took me back to Hegel’s notion of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, and then I found a quote from Hegel that rose up from the centuries past and slapped me around a bit: “no man can surpass his own time, for the spirit of his time is also his own spirit.”

    heh.

  567. @mintwitch: So very glad you got the joke. All power to the Femisnarky! Remind me to tell you about the elastrator sometime. Very handy for toning down overly stroppy males!

  569. Welcome to the lab, Evette! Let’s hear it for peer review and cooperative scientific investigation! I have extra hairpins if you need them.

    For today’s experiments, I’m focusing on the characteristics and potential contributions to society of the feta, gouda, fontina, mozzarella and gorgonzola males. The velveeta males, having nothing worthwhile to offer, have been sterilized and will be released into a secure mancave to live out the remainder of their uncomfortable long shelf-lives in safe isolation (unless my sisters in the Femisnarky can come up with a better use for them).

  570. @mintwitch, well you can’t have one without the other! When we used them in our Animal Science lab for castrating lambs, I wore my “I’m a castrating bitch” button. The professor was Not Amused. But the boys all were very good about following my orders. I think an Agriculture degree was good preparation for the Femisnarky!

  573. @MNiM — I’m not sure how much sport the poor feeble things can offer.

    My partner has pointed out that they can make sandwiches, but who would want to eat the sandwiches? We could include them in the next supply drop for Captain Tightpants, I suppose.

  574. @Beth (the ‘Mac’ is silent): You seem to have some odd opinions on the shape of pi males. Pi are round! Cornbread are square.

    I’m still trying to figure out whether psi males would be telepaths or just really good at keeping my tires inflated properly. I’d prefer the latter, to be honest.

  576. @Andrew Hackard – Oh, boy. Good old Dave Sim. Let’s have a look at what Dave Sim has to say about women:
    “It wouldn’t be that big a stretch to categorize my writing as Hate Literature against women . . . in this Fascistic Feminist country”
    With Dave Sim, you don’t have to alter his quotes to fit them into the Manosphere Chronicles. You can use his own exact words. Here are some choice snippets from the adventures of Victor Davis:
    –
    [Deleted because the excerpt goes far beyond fair usage and into copyright violation. Shorter excerpts in the future, please, Tice With a J – JS]

  578. I seem to be having a problem with the Mallet lately. Oh well, the whole point of Loving Correction is to learn how to do things correctly, so let me now present a shorter, more copyright-friendly snippet of the adventures of Viktor Davis:
    –
    A bright-eyed fellow in a dark-blue suit – his shirt lightly starched, his red-and-black-striped tie neatly pressed – locked eyes with Viktor Davis. He smiled and in his smile there was great pity. Over his shoulder there was visible a slim, young woman with green eyes. She lapped delicately at the open wound within the desiccated remains of his temple. “I understand what you’re talking about,” he said. “We know this couple, see? Man, they are just the absolute picture of what you described. What you don’t realise is that there are good women in the world. You just haven’t found the right one, yet. That’s all.”
    Viktor Davis took a drag from his cigarette and expelled a series of small smoke rings. The bright-eyed fellow and Viktor Davis stared into each other’s eyes for a period of several seconds. One corner of the bright-eyed fellow’s smile twitched slightly and the merest trace of anxiety crossed his features. The slim, young woman took a deep bite from the wound. He closed his eyes and the smile broadened. “You’ll see,” he said, leaning towards her. “You’ll see.”
    –
    Dave Sim, ladies and gentlemen. The Platonic Form of the Misogynist.

  580. Must be a personal failing–I went to the Dave SIms link and in about 10 seconds thought–“this is just stupid” and left. It was beyond stupid, actually Unreadable is a better word. To me it was just random words put together–like a parody that didn’t work.

  581. @MNMOM I find it interesting that you say that you worry about schools becoming to ‘feminized’ but then the issues you talk about sound like over-crowded schools and insufficient support for physical activities and crafts in schools. Those don’t sound like feminization issues, they sound like schools being underfunded issues, they sound like issues around testing and construction of curriculum. I find it a little sad that ‘things are under resourced and over controlled’ or are devalued are what is associated with feminization – I don’t think that’s an accurate description of what actually happens. You talk about the values of Montessori schools, it has been women who introduced Montessori to Australia and most of the Montessori teachers I know of are women.

    One of the best things one of my female teachers did in primary school was to notice that girls were disengaging from sport and boys were disengaging from maths. She had the flexibility of curriculum to set up an intervention, so once a week boys only worked on maths and girls only worked on sports skills with a great volunteer parent (esp hand eye co-ordination and physical confidence). Both genders improved, although some boys were distraught that girls had become better at sport (an average boy and average girl had become roughly equal in skill) and their interest in ball sports declined.

  582. @Beth — we could have them hunt each other for sport?

    Or gladiatorial games? If they’re evenly matched, it should still be amusing, yes?

  583. “… it has been women who introduced Montessori to Australia and most of the Montessori teachers I know of are women.”

    And of course, Maria Montessori who developed the method was also a woman.

  585. Thanks Studer, I was thinking as I was writing ‘I should check to see if Montessori was a woman’, but then I forgot :-) Reads wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education hmmm, according to this Montessori was held back in America because of a prominent male educator.

    I have heard that Italy leads the world in early childhood education (so preschool in Italy, high school in Finland?)… it’s humbling to think that Italy has been exploring and refining educational concepts like Montessori for over a 100 years.

  586. I had to blog about this, just so I could share my vision of the Manosphere: It’s a place where you can kick back and be a regular guy. You know, slip on your floor-length black robes with the pictures of hands on them, watch your seven or eight wives wrestle in their underwear, and occasionally torture the man-goat.

    And now, you will all picture Ian Ironwood as the Master…

  589. Other Becky (@OtherBecky) says: November 22, 2012 at 8:18 pm
    Cornbread are square.

    I think this is a Mynosphere mysoginistic myth. Proper cornbread is baked in a cast iron skillet and thus are round. You obviously have been spending time in places other than the Kitchen, tut tut.

  590. Agreed. Proper cornbread contains no sugar and is baked in a round, cast-iron skillet. Anything different is Johnny Cake, which is evil and wrong. I cannot describe the existential horror I felt as a child, confronted w/ pans of Johnny Cake at school lunches, masquerading as Corn Bread. HORROR.

  591. At person who was listening to Loreena McKennitt.
    You like Enya, dontcha. (Eithne Ní Bhraonáin)
    Thank you for the name, I think I’ll be buying some of McKennitt’s music.

    @mintwitch
    “I’ve never been sure whether the single word ‘elastrator’ refers to the ring or the pliers.”
    –
    I know the rings as “elastrator bands,” and have never heard of the pliers/applicator as
    having a name.
    –
    At unusualness.
    I do not ever pay attention to a thread that is more than three business days old.
    Uhm? -Cough-? Hi? Wow, where am I.

  592. Hey guys. Remember that link I posted earlier with all that crazy woman-hating stuff by Dave Sim in it? I used to think that the site existed as a repository of evidence against Dave Sim, holding him up as something to be shunned and scorned. Boy, was I wrong. I have taken a look at the rest of the site and it’s clear that the proprietor, Kevin Solway, has posted Dave Sim’s words because he believes them to be just and true. Here’s a look at some other words Kevin wants us to read, along with a few of his own writings (note to JS – these are from various authors, some of whom are in the public domain, so I believe this post to be with Fair Use guidelines):

    “Just as it is impossible for a fish to live out of water, so a wife can’t live without abusing her husband and fighting.”

    “Men have been trained and conditioned by women, not unlike the way Pavlov conditioned his dogs, into becoming their slaves. As compensation for their labours men are given periodic use of a woman’s vagina.”

    “In such a being as the absolute female there are no logical and ethical phenomena, and, therefore, the ground for the assumption of a soul is absent.”

    “The Disciple asked:
    What is a misogynist?
    The Master replied: I do not know; but it is used by cowards as a term of abuse for those who say what everybody thinks.”

    “We don’t have the faintest idea what it means to be men anymore. Our male models are reconstituted women. They are the men women like, not the men God likes.”

    “There are only three things in the world that women do not understand; and they are Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. ”

    “The fixed stars signify the angel in man. That is why man orients himself by them; and that is why women have no appreciation for the starry sky; because they have no sense of the angel in man.”

    “As absurd as it may sound, today’s men need feminism much more than their wives do. Feminists are the last ones who still describe men the way they like to see themselves: as egocentric, power-obsessed, ruthless and without inhibitions when it comes to satisfying their instincts.”

    “Do I hate women? I can excuse you for thinking I do. But I cannot hate women. I know far too much about women to be able to hate them. Rather, I hate what they embody. I hate the way they make life soft and easy, distracting attention away from the important, cold, hard realities of life. I hate the way they give the appearance of being selfless and kind, concealing their true nature.”

    “The Male Light is jeopardized on all fronts, in my view. The Devouring Rapacious Female Void is not a thing to be taken lightly, to be explained away, to be rationalised into neutrality.”

    “Women are the last people to be trusted with children. Those who have repressed their own aspirations will scarcely be tolerant of the aspirations of others.”

    So THIS is what the patriarchy looks like.

  593. Chief, Chief, is that you … before the unfortunate exposure to anime and the shameful incident in the tree? Oh, Chief, we vow to spend our days inscribing your words into tablets of stone that they may outlive you and the rest of us who are striving to maintain the holy manliness of your vision here in Cabela’s, er, I mean the Manosphere.

  594. Sim amazes me. Yes, Virginia, if you identify a priori everything good as fundamentally male and everything bad as fundamentally female, you will be well-equipped to reason from there that feminism is Big Trouble.

    What a poster child for the demonization of emotion leading directly to total obliviousness to how your furious rationalizations are driven by deep emotional disturbance.

    I always found Cerebus unendurably tedious, and given the way people fawned over it assumed this reflected some flaw in me, but I’m awfully glad of it right now, with all the heartbreak it’s saving me.

  595. “There are only three things in the world that women do not understand; and they are Liberty, Equality and Fraternity. ”

    Why should we?

    When have we ever known them?

  596. Okay, I know this thread is dead, but someone emailed this to me this morning and I immediately realized the dire importance of sharing it with the Lunch Mob. Bon appétit:

  599. You guys all rock. It’s taken me days to read this all and I am speechless with awe. I only wish I had been here earlier so that I could contribute to the Feminsnark cause. Oh well, at least I will try and tag along with the lunch mob next time I get a chance.

  601. This thread has just crept over 600 comments, and I think this is a good place to put a cap on it and preserve its hilarious hijinx forever in virtual amber, as it were.

    Thanks to everyone who contributed to it. As I mentioned earlier, I think this may be my favorite comment thread here ever.

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