The Cinemax Theory of Racism

Yesterday I wrote here: 

If Trump’s administration indulges in the racism, sexism and religious and other bigotries that Trump and his people have already promised to engage in, we can assume it’s because his voters are just fine with that racism, sexism and religious and other bigotries — even if they claim to have voted for him for other reasons entirely. After all, Trump didn’t hide these things about himself, or try to sneak these plans in by a side door. They were in full view this entire time. If you vote for a bigot who has bigoted plans, you need to be aware of what that says about you, and your complicity in those plans.

I also last night tweeted this:

And wouldn’t you know, because of both, I’ve gotten comments and emails and tweets from people upset that I pointed out that voting for a public racist with clear racist policies means that one is abetting racism. I assume that they know for sure that they’re not racist, and wouldn’t be racist, so being accused of racism stings. They didn’t vote for racism! They voted to make America great again!

Well, so, okay. Let me give you an analogy here.

Let’s say you want HBO. So you go to your local cable provider to get HBO and the only way they’ll let you get HBO is to sign up for a premium channel package, which includes HBO but also includes Cinemax. Now, maybe you don’t want Cinemax, and you don’t care about Cinemax, and maybe never personally plan to ever watch Cinemax, but the deal is: If you want HBO, you have to sign on to Cinemax too. You have to be a Cinemax subscriber to get HBO. And you go ahead and sign up for the premium channel package.

Pop quiz: In this scenario, did you just subscribe to Cinemax?

And you may say, no, I subscribed to HBO, but I couldn’t get it without Cinemax. I’m an HBO subscriber, not a Cinemax subscriber.

And then someone points out to you, well, in point of fact, you are a Cinemax subscriber, look, there it is on your TV channel guide. Some of the money you pay in for your premium channel package goes to Cinemax and funds its plans and strategies.

And you say, but I never watch Cinemax or ever plan to.

And they say, okay, but you still subscribe to it, and you knew that in order to get HBO you had to get Cinemax, and you signed on anyway. You’re a Cinemax subscriber whether you ever watch it or not.

And you say, well, look, I really wanted HBO.

And they say, sure, enough that you were fine with accepting Cinemax to get it. Just don’t pretend you’re not currently subscribing to Cinemax, too. You clearly are. Look, it’s right there on your cable bill. You’re a Cinemax subscriber.

Now, to bring that analogy back to the point at hand. This election, you had two major Presidential providers. One offered you the Stronger Together plan, and the other offered you the Make America Great Again plan. You chose the Make America Great Again plan. The thing is, the Make America Great Again has in its package active, institutionalized racism (also active, institutionalized sexism. And as it happens, active, institutionalized homophobia). And you know it does, because the people who bundled up the Make America Great Again package not only told you it was there, they made it one of the plan’s big selling points.

And you voted for it anyway.

So did you vote for racism?

You sure did.

And you say, but I’m not racist, and I would never treat people in a racist fashion, and I don’t like being called out as having done a racist thing.

And others say to you, okay, but you knew that when you signed up for the Make America Great Again plan that active, institutionalized racism was part of the package. Your vote supports racism. By voting, you endorsed a racist plan.

And you say, but I didn’t want that part. I wanted the other parts.

And others say to you, that’s fine, but you knew that to get the other parts, you had to sign on for the racism, too. And evidently you were okay with that.

And you say, no I’m not, I hate racism.

And others say to you, but apparently you like these other things more than you hate racism, because you agreed to the racism in order to get these other things.

And you say, well, the Stronger Together plan had horrible things in it too.

And others say to you, yes, and you didn’t vote for that, you voted for this. Which has racism in it. You voted for racism.

And you say, stop saying that.

And the others ask, why.

I’ve written before on how people can benefit from racism and other forms of discrimination without actively and intentionally discriminating against others, and if you have the time I recommend reading the piece. Lots of people benefit from an institutionalized system of bigotry, etc (including me) without being a bigot themselves, i.e., going out of their way to keep other people down. That’s the nature of a bigoted system so endemic that you don’t even notice it’s there for the same reason the proverbial fish doesn’t notice the water.

I think you can very easily make the argument that a lot people who voted for Trump are not and would not actively be racist to another person in their day-to-day lives. I live among Trump voters, and the ones I live among are lovely and kind and perfect neighbors. They are what nearly anyone would describe as good people, me included. As are, I think, the majority of the people who voted for Trump.

But the fact remains that in voting for Trump, they voted for racism: It was right there in the package deal, front and center, and hard to miss. They voted for it anyway. And you may argue that voting for racism as part of a larger package deal does not a racist make, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, as far as what people do to others in their personal and day to day lives. But voting for racism will make personal, day-to-day life harder for the targets of that racism. Two days after the election, we’re already seeing that.

It’s perfectly fine to point out to people who voted for racism, that indeed, this is what they voted for. And also that if owning up to the fact that they voted for racism is uncomfortable for them, they should take a moment to think about how bad it is for the targets of that racism, and how bad it has yet to get.

For the Trump voters, Trump’s racism may have been just part of the package deal, the Cinemax they had accept to get the HBO. For those who are the target of that racism (and sexism, and homophobia), however, it’s not Cinemax. It’s their lives. Day to day, and every day. And they’re all too aware of what Trump voters signed up for, to get what they wanted.

310 thoughts on “The Cinemax Theory of Racism

  1. Notes!

    1. Obviously this will be a touchy subject. The Mallet is out. Be polite to each other and if you are new here (as I suspect this will bring more than the usual readers) please read the comment policy. It applies to you.

    2. The discussion here is on Trump and his (and his campaign’s) racism and how that racism reflects on his voters. D try to stick on topic. Be aware that arguments that boil down to “yeah but Clinton was awful too!” will likely get Malleted, not because that’s not a debatable topic — it is! — but that it’s not what we’re discussing here, now.

    3. To pre-empt the “it’s not nice to be mean to Trump supporters” line of argument. One, as noted in my site disclaimer, I’m not nice. Two, voting for racism isn’t nice, either, so let’s try to keep the focus on that. I am surely aware it’s uncomfortable to be confronted on one’s (even unintentional) racism; ask me how I know. But it’s also someone that is worth doing.

    4. Since I see it out there, the “People who voted for Obama in 2012 voted for Trump in 2016, how can they be racist?” argument is not as strong as you might think it is. One, as noted above, one can easily vote for racism without being a racist in their day-to-day lives. Two, what, are you saying that people will vote pragmatically in what they perceive to be their own interests, which in one election year might mean voting for a black man, and in another voting for package deal that includes racism (and sexism, and homophobia) that they won’t feel the effect of? Shocked, shocked I am at this!

    5. Also, yes, I know, analogies and analogies and they only go so far, so if you want to pick at the analogy, go ahead, but know going in that I know no analogy is perfect.

    6. Just for the record, I do not believe the actual Cinemax is racist.

    7. I might think of other things to put here; check back on this comment later.

  2. Exactly so. My faith in the basic goodness of my fellow Americans (hell, and myself, although I voted for HRC) has suffered a brutal setback.

  3. Just so. There are good people in my church, folks who actively follow the Gospel by showing love every day, who voted for Trump. I would bet every cent I could scrape together that their responses would be exactly what you posited. Things like this make the election extra sad for me.

  4. Read this and shared it to Facebook (and I NEVER post on Facebook), because this is exactly my feelings. Individuals who voted for Trump signaled they were okay with his behavior for whatever reasons.

  5. I Had the same argument:

    “Okay, so you bought a bucket of nails ’cause you needed the bucket and they didn’t sell empty ones. Did you buy nails?”

    *silence*

  6. Strom Thurmond; George Wallace; Jim Crow; Seriously, woke Black people are saying “where have ya’ll been, this has been happening all along?” Wish I could insert the piece in Mother Jones about dismantling 8 years of Reconstruction vs. dismantling 8 years of Barack Obama’s presidency. Just like the civil war was about “State’s Rights”, this is about “Make America Great Again”. Racism by any other name…

  7. I think you can very easily make the argument that a lot people who voted for Trump are not and would not actively be racist to another person in their day-to-day lives

    Sure, you don’t have to be actively racist/misogynistic/homophobic when you’ve voted for someone else to do all the heavy lifting. Outsourcing your bigotry doesn’t make you any less bigoted, it just makes you lazy about it.

  8. @Soulflower: I suspect that the surprise for a lot of people isn’t that it exists, but the extent to which it’s widespread. I think of it like the difference between knowing you’ve got cancer, and realizing just how far the cancer has spread.

    As for the Cinemax Theory: as far as I’m concerned, yes, a vote for Trump was a vote for racism and sexism and bigotry and xenophobia, and if someone who voted for Trump wants me to believe that they don’t approve of racism, then they’ve got to prove it through their deeds (and I’m talking about proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty here; cutting a check to Planned Parenthood won’t clear that bar).

  9. In one “Life in Hell” strip, Binky opened the floor to questions from Bongo, and one of the questions was “If you vote Republican, does that make you an accomplice to their crimes?” Binky didn’t answer that (or any of the others), but I would have said “No, just an accessory before the fact.”

  10. And when his administration takes actions that are racist or roll back anti-discriminatory policies (which seems more likely to happen than not), THAT is what you voted for if you voted for Trump. If he appoints Supreme Court justices who decide cases in ways that negatively affect the rights of minority populations and women, you will have voted for those justices to be appointed. If he signs an executive order that requires all Americans who are Muslim to register, as he has spoken of doing, you will have voted for that.

    Recognizing your part in the actions he and his administration will take, what will you do to protect the rights of your fellow Americans so that only the parts of his program that you want get enacted? Anything? Wring your hands? Rationalize that just registering doesn’t cause Muslims any harm (even though you know, because you took history in high school, that in Europe during WW II, at first Jews were required only to register)? Will you work hard to make sure the president you voted for does not do that? If not, why not?

  11. This is basically why it’s so hard to have any faith or optimism in America right now. Not to mention the other channels they got in that package: misogyny and homophobia and religious persecution. The fear for their own safety and despair of being voted against (even as a package) people are feeling right now is heartbreaking.

  12. Well said, John. Here in Europe we have the same kind of deplorables trying to achieve a revival of 1930s.
    I don’t now what to say to my american friends. Just… be safe, OK? The world is a mess and it seems it’s our fault, so let’s try to sort this out. For everybody.

  13. Y’know what? I voted for the Stronger Together plan, which has some things I don’t like (“Yay Wall Street!”, and “Wars can be great!”, for example). And I make no bones about it; I voted for that. But I had planned all along to strongly oppose that part of the package. Rather than say “But I’m not a friend of bankers, how can you call me that?” I was going to use my words and my dollars and my feet to try to get the plan to drop the “Yay Wall Street” channel.

    If you bought the “MAGA” plan and truly aren’t happy about the Racism channel being in there, just saying “Eh, I didn’t want that channel; it just came with the package” isn’t enough. Work to get it cut from the package or admit that it doesn’t bother you.

  14. But it’s also obvious that if you voted for Trump and you do NOT approve of racism is encumbent on you to make sure his government isn’t guided by a mistaken belief they have a racist mandate. Have them “make America great again” but make damned version they understand that cannot be done with racism.

  15. For anyone that might want to make the argument that ‘you wouldn’t have supported all of Hillary’s policies either!’ Well, no. I wouldn’t have. And those that I felt strongly about in terms of my core beliefs, I would have fought against and voiced my opinions and generally tried to rectify any damage I perceived. That’s what we do in a democracy. So to those Trump supporters that say ‘we’re not racists and don’t support that’: put your money where you mouth is. I want to hear you loud and clear when shit starts hitting the proverbial fan. Because if you don’t? Then you really are complicit. Prove us all wrong about your association with Trump. Please. I’m begging you.

  16. I’ve said all along that I cannot respect a Trump supporter, for this very reason. But, after having my 9 year old daughter in tears yesterday because she thought people were good and cannot understand how they can vote for him, I am trying, really, really hard, to understand how people can do this.

    Here are a couple of things I have come up with….

    1) Part of the problem was that this was an either-or race. People really didn’t like Hillary Clinton, for a number of reasons. Some of them reasonable (she is too centrist for my taste, plus I still resent her running for the Senate in my state despite no real connection), some of the misogynist, some of them just wrong. Some people were fooled into thinking that she was a criminal who already sold favors as Secretary of State. So, those people had a choice…vote for someone who was peddling in racism, and hope that he would do differently once elected, or vote for someone who had proven she would be corrupt in office.

    2) People are hurting, and there is no real answer. The majority of white people on Welfare or food stamps or other government assistance voted for Trump, despite the fact that the Republicans plan to gut those programs. How can people constantly vote against their self interest? Well, the problem is that progressives (myself included) don’t really have a plan to improve these people’s lives. We can offer them help, but not solution. There is no easy answer to bringing jobs back to certain areas on a large scale. So, these people are offered a choice…believe Trump when he says he will bring jobs back, even though deep down they know it’s a lie, or accept that their lives will not meaningfully improve. Are these people accepting racism? Yes. But I think we need to understand the desperation that they feel.

    Does any of this excuse voting for Trump? I don’t really know. I still can’t wrap my head around the fact that it happened, and what all of the consequences will be. And to be honest, I’ve been way to preoccupied with worrying about how minorities/women/LBGT people will get through this to feel much empathy towards Trump voters.

  17. Great! And yes.

    On the side, re point #3, perhaps:
    “… I am surely aware it’s UNcomfortable to be confronted on one’s (even unintentional) racism; ask me how I know. But it’s also someTHING that is worth doing.”

  18. Trump isn’t racist. He thinks he’s superior to everyone, regardless of race.

    (not an endorsement in any way)

  19. Agreed. However, I wouldn’t worry about cutting a check to Planned Parenthood — a Republican administration will probably shut it down. With the abolition of the ACA and the overturning of Roe v. Wade, I foresee a flourishing black market in illegal abortions and birth control coming our way!

  20. Occam’s Racist: The notion that when confronted with multiple competing hypotheses for why a person supported racist actions, the simplest and best explanation is that they are actually a racist.

  21. Yesterday I was out and found myself having thoughts I have never entertained before. I looked at my fellow citizens and wondered, “which among you is fine with this? Which of you think that America should belong only to white, straight people?” Less likely than average because I live in S. California, but they’re out there.

    I am considering a badge that says “You voted for this” when the trade wars start and employment plunges again.

    I’ve never owned an American flag pin, but I might get one, just so I can wear it upside down. Because we are certainly in distress.

  22. I agree with your premise in simple-minded form and logic. I just don’t believe labels have helped any of us overcome our racist tendency born out of being born white in America. I abhor racism at its core. It’s a learned behavior emeshed in our country’s history and educational, social and political systems. To be more fair a vote for either candidate was a vote for racism. While one spoke good about better together her practices and monetary contributors came from country’s and people who would kill gays and further nullify the black race and especially women. Your argument is unfair and only one sided. A person’s actions are the test of character not their words.

  23. A lot of “Christians” voted for Trump because abortion. End of discussion. To them, all the suffering in the world pales in comparison to the “evils of abortion.” I won’t even go there because I am still angry with those people.

  24. I know someone who would say he can’t possibly be a racist because there is no racism in this country. Except for the stuff that Black Lives Matter makes up.

    Sigh

  25. Miles Archer, Trump has a history of racist actions dating back decades, and his campaign bullshit about how he was going to help black people (apparently, he believes most black people live in hellhole inner cities, which he is going to magically make better like some white savior) does not suggest that he isn’t racist. I agree that as a narcissist, he believes he is superior to everyone, but I think he still has hierachies of worthiness among the people he feels superior too.

  26. I am having a seriously hard time finding anything to grab onto to maintain any faith in humanity right now. Not some “hang in there” platitude, but something obiective that can be pointed to and say “there is cause for hope”.

    I got nothing. At this point, calling a racist “racist” feels about as useful as pissing on a raging wildfire. Explaining it to them feels equally pointless.

    People are dancing in the streets that they can finally say “nigger” again. They have no shame. Trump tells them its ok. How will a shaming campaign towards unashamed bigots do a fucking thing?

  27. I keep hearing this: “but you know I’m not racist! His overall policies will help my family!” What policies, exactly? The wall? The ban on Muslims? As far as I can tell, “his overall policies” were racism.
    But thank you, thank you for shining on light on this “I voted for Trump but I’m not a racist” garbage.

  28. Greg, it’s not much but there’s this: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/796389278033051648

    That’s pretty small comfort against the reports I’m seeing of children being harassed and abused by their schoolmates today and teachers and police letting it happen. There’s a lot more bad than good going on today, IMO. We can still support the efforts to fight back against actual policies and actions by the incoming administration.

  29. This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make — only, of course, said better. By voting for Trump, people tacitly approved of all the hate he’s been spewing throughout the campaign. At the very least, they’ve said that treating other people with kindness and respect — or, hell, just being a decent individual in the public arena — is less important than… well, whatever it is they think they’ll gain.

    They can protest all they want, but at the end of the day that’s the decision they made. That’s the cold equation. The least they can do is own up to it.

  30. Oh, and the campaign to get the Electoral College to not vote Trump in, likely wont stop Trump, but after Trumps presidency is in flames, if there still exists something called thd United States of America, then the EC failure to stop Trump should proof thst the EC is useless and should be ditched.

    Gore got more votes, but the EC made W Bush presidnt.
    Hillary got more votes, but the EC is going to make Trump president.

    Get rid of the EC, and we get rid of the extra weight that rural rednecks and bigots get, and maybe this shit where peope vote for sanity but the EC says fuck you, will stop happening.

  31. I think that the harder to stomach are the people that are projecting into the people who point this out so as to avoid confronting the fact that either yes, you are a racist, or yes, you voted for a racist.

    There is no way to open dialogue with them at all.

  32. However, I wouldn’t worry about cutting a check to Planned Parenthood — a Republican administration will probably shut it down.

    They can’t, it’s a private organization. PP gets federal funding, sure, but they are also privately-funded. Cutting federal support (which is likely to happen) may hurt them significantly, and that is why I and many other people are stepping up our donations to them.

    When the ACA is gutted a lot of women are going to lose access to free birth-control, and we need to plan for that. You can expect a lot more unintended pregnancies under a Trump administration. [“Trump administration”: holy crap, what have we come to.]

  33. I largely agree with you. I would just carve out one small exception, and I am sure the people in that exception won’t like it either.

    There is a group of people as you identified that voted for Trump for other reasons that think those benefits to us all out way the racism, but also committed to fighting the racist bigoted parts as well thinking they could effectively separate the two and will be successful in fighting it because “we are not a bigoted country”. I think those people are niave and clueless since they thought they could seaperate and fight that part. I think that willingness to fight the bigotry makes a difference in my mind.

    I even know people who think the political system is broken and that he would be a good cudgeal to finish breaking it so we could rebuild it better and that thought the racist parts would meme if easier to get people to come together to fight him and the system so we could all build a better fairer system after. Again, I do not think these people are racists, since their goal is to fight that. Just niave and clueless.

    Most importantly though, I think that in no way absolves them of owning all the bigoted things he wants to do.

    And while it is hard to keep up with all the hatred that tiny handed orange monster spews forth. I also think it is important to not leave out the religious hatred as well.

  34. Great, great analogy. As someone said the either or nature was a killer for them. I abstained myself because I couldn’t accept the package, but could never have made this analogy!!
    People are scared, have no hope and his crap gave them false hope. They blame banks, none of which were really ever prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. And corporate America who have been handsomely rewarded for taking their jobs. To those folks she was full of Cinemax. And in 4 years they will be shopping packages again.

  35. How do we explain the latino and Asian vote? (I don’t touch the other vote or the white women vote cause… I don’t know how other works, but it feels like most of them might be undeclared white voters, and being white as a women is easier than being a minority). Trump has been particularly vicious on this election on the latino/Hispanic population, but he still ended up with 30% of the votes versus 65% of Hillary. In practice 1/3 people who will get hurt by this choice voted for him… The national average of people with masochist disorder is around 1/10 (that goes perfectly with the 8% vote of African Americans for Trump). Also he got the lower income/uneducated vote (that is something that in Europe happens when the left doesn’t do a good job with that important demographic, and people start to trust demagogues and strong men… but calling the american democrats left is a bit far fetched)

  36. I like your analogy, but since candidates represent a large number of different ideas on different topics, a better analogy would be the choice that most people have to make between AT&T and Comcast – both are terrible companies that have done terrible things. But if you need to get HBO, and it’s only available through AT&T, then you buy your service through AT&T. Or, alternatively, despite AT&T having done terrible things, Comcast has done even more terrible things, and so you buy AT&T.

    I’d mention third parties here, but it seems to be moving too far past the point in question.

    “The discussion here is on Trump and his (and his campaign’s) racism and how that racism reflects on his voters”

    How it reflects on his voters? They get called racists. Which is inaccurate.

    I don’t think Trump is a racist, but let’s go ahead and stipulate that point.

    He might represent a bundle of 50 different things, one of which let’s say is racism (picking up an amazing 6,000 votes from the KKK across America) and Clinton represented a bundle of 50 different things, of which one is being “extremely careless with classified information” (Comey).

    If a person chooses to vote for Trump because either 1) They want something from Trump that he can’t get from Clinton (such as re-opening factories in Detroit) or because 2) Trump’s supposed racism is less bad then mishandling classified secrets, this does NOT make someone a racist.

    What *does* make someone a racist?

    Being a racist.

    I understand why Democrats are angry, and sad, and lashing out at Trump supporters right now. But it is inaccurate and counterproductive to call all Trump supporters racists. In reality, racists are a small part of both parties, and when you call someone a racist or a sexist (or any other word that would get a person *fired* if it was true) just because they voted differently from you… is a huge reason why they voted differently from you.

    Democrats have a small playbook of strategies (of which calling half the country racist is one of them), and America got tired of it.

    Again, it’s okay to be angry. It’s not okay to call people words that would get them fired when the label is not true.

    As I said yesterday – people on both sides of the aisle are overwhelmingly kind, generous, patriotic, and good folk. Be angry with them for their choice of vote! But don’t use words that are not true.

  37. And you may argue that voting for racism as part of a larger package deal does not a racist make, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, as far as what people do to others in their personal and day to day lives.

    I’d agree up to that point, but not an inch further. If in the privacy of a secret ballot, you don’t actually find blatant racism (or misogyny or homophobia or religious bigotry) disqualifying, that’s your call. Nobody ever has to know who you voted for or why. But don’t pretend that your vote is sealed off in some bubble from ” what people do to others in their personal and day to day lives.” Your votes, all the way down the ballot, will have profound impacts on others, and grown ups accept their actions and choices have consequences. If you can’t — or won’t — do that, perhaps you shouldn’t be voting in the first place.

  38. “They get called racists. Which is inaccurate.”

    If a person does racist things, and supports racist propaganda, then even if they don’t call themselves racists or think of themselves as racists, they ARE racists, and all the whining over that, or calling it name-calling, doesn’t make it inaccurate.

    I’m tired of not calling a spade a spade. It’s not okay to tell a falsehood just because you’re worried about hurting someone’s precious feelings. People need to face up to what they voted for.

  39. As someone said about Brexit: “Voting for [x] doesn’t mean that you’re a racist or a bigot, but please understand that the racists and bigots now think that a majority of the country agrees with them”.

  40. Marco, I believe that the Latino voters for Trump were by Cubans (who vote largely Republican) or upper crust Latinos who are pretty much white and descended from Spain. The brown ones working in hard in back-breaking jobs know what’s on the line for them.

  41. It’s very tempting to call Trump voters stupid. That they can’t tell who the real liar is seems to support that conclusion. Presumably the unusual support for third party candidates (enough to have elected HRC if they had voted for her) puts them in the same category. But what appalls me is just how many people were deceived. Then again, people have been voting Republican for generations despite their dismal record of (lack of) accomplishment. So what does this say about democracy? I’m with Churchill: it’s the worst form of government – except for all the others. You may be sure that the Chinese government will use this as a reason to denigrate the very idea of democracy. I’m not sure what Putin will do. he likes Trump because he knows he can manipulate him, and at home he’s still pretending he was elected freely and fairly. In all three major powers, democracy is now either dead or very sick. I see the #notmypresident movement and I sympathise, but attempts at revolution will make things worse, not better. There will be midterm elections in two years; if people really want to undo what has just happpened by legal means, that is where to start.

  42. Thank you for this. I’m not sure how people can feel good about voting for a candidate who was endorsed by the KKK and for whom Russia tried to (and did) interfere with our political process. Now we have the hard work of fighting the bigotry and misogyny their candidate will try to put into practice.

    And, as a biologist, I am appalled at the plans to gut environmental protections. Don’t they see that climate change is already causing increased storm damage and flooding? How do they think the air stays clean enough to breath and the water clean enough to drink?

    Oh, wait. In many parts of the country you can’t drink the water. I guess if it’s not THEIR drinking water it doesn’t matter.

  43. Although I have no doubt that a vote for Trump was an implicit endorsement of his policies, the data seems to suggest that Trump was not particularly popular so much as Americans hated both candidates. Trump won less popular votes than McCain did in 2008 ( an election where Obama won nearly 400 electoral votes) and fewer than Romey in 2012. And Trump won more Latinos and Blacks than Romey did in 2012. Sadly I feel like Hillary lost because of voter apathy to her candidacy.

    Which begs the question, what about the people who decided to go “a pox on both your houses!” this election cycle? Aren’t they implicit in this train wreck?

  44. I think the next time I go into town, I will wear a scarf that completely covers my hair, wraps around my neck, and rather resembles a Muslim woman’s head covering. It should prove interesting in the least. If I am assaulted, I will press charges, and request that “hate crimes” be included. BTW, I am a 60+ yo anglo female.

  45. My question is simply, is this kind of rhetoric helpful in bringing people over to our side? John, are you explaining to those lovely neighbors that they endorsed racism? Is that working out?

    Fundamentally I agree with you but I worry that this approach is divisive, and has already failed.

  46. As for the cinemax analogly, I dont quite get it.

    Say you hire an exterminator who advertises the fact that he goes after cockroaches with a flamethrower, then tells you to your face he uses a flamethrower, and shows you the equipment. But you got cockroachsles in your kitchen and you want them gone. When the guy ends up burning the whole building down, thats on you.

    Which would be somewhat fine if it were your single family home that only you lived in. But its a high rise condo, and at the annual meeting, the ro-flamethrower people won the vote. More people voted to not use the flamethrower, and some people bring up the fact that this guy was actually treated for pyromania at one point, and doesnt have any license or experience as an exterminator, but condo association rules gives people on the first 20 floors more weight to their votes). So the association paid the flamethrowr guy to get rid of your cockroaches, and now floors 34 through 46 are on fire, and it could take years to put it out.

    And the question is, did you vote for a pyro-fucking-maniac to set the building on fire?

    And the answer is YES.

  47. I understand why Democrats are angry, and sad, and lashing out at Trump supporters right now. But it is inaccurate and counterproductive to call all Trump supporters racists. In reality, racists are a small part of both parties, and when you call someone a racist or a sexist (or any other word that would get a person *fired* if it was true) just because they voted differently from you… is a huge reason why they voted differently from you.

    I understand why Republicans are desperate to keep playing False Equivalence Bingo, but it’s getting really offensive when that extends to pretending there were two candidates (and two parties) playing a whole deck of racist cards from the moment they declared until the polls closed.

    As I said yesterday – people on both sides of the aisle are overwhelmingly kind, generous, patriotic, and good folk. Be angry with them for their choice of vote! But don’t use words that are not true.

    No, I’m going to play this game any more. Don’t you dare tell Mexican, Muslims and African-Americans that people who voted for a man that treated them with utter contempt are “overwhelmingly kind, generous, patriotic, and good folk.” You’re not. You can own, that or not. You can get all condescending and pissy towards people for whom racism is a MUCH bigger issue than Hillary Clinton not buying herself a second Blackberry and learning how to work a bloody printer.

    But what you’re not going to do is keep gaslighting people who can see what’s right in front of their faces, and has been for eighteen months. Becuase one last thing racists don’t get to do: Tell anyone else what racism is, and isn’t.

  48. I think the comparison is less HBO with Cinemax and more HBO with pron channels. When someone signs up for the package you really can’t tell whether the porn channels are something they don’t want, something they’re indifferent to or the main attraction but something that they’re embarrassed about sufficiently that the HBO makes for a good excuse.

    The folks that voted for Trump are likely spread across all three of these camps, but I personally have to default to putting them in the ‘too embarrassed’ camp until or unless their actions prove otherwise.

    It is far too easy to play that ‘I didn’t know’ or ‘other reasons’ to cover for bigotry that you know is not pretty but you quietly support.

  49. “If a person does racist things, and supports racist propaganda, then even if they don’t call themselves racists or think of themselves as racists, they ARE racists, and all the whining over that, or calling it name-calling, doesn’t make it inaccurate.”

    I’m not whining over name calling. I’m saying it is a logical fallacy to call a non-racist a racist.

    For example, I don’t accuse Democrats of supporting misnhandling classified data because they supported a candidate who had her maid print out things from a SCIF to bring to her (and she never apologied for).

    A friend of mine, Richard Stallman

  50. I had a patient who told me she didn’t take any of her meds, including her heart medications, on Election Day as the priest told the congregation to fast 11-8-16 to be sure ‘the right one’ was elected. I was speechless.

  51. (Odd, it submitted early while I was typing)

    …doesn’t drink Coke products because of the murder of union protestors in South America.

    But most people drink Coke anyway (that’s their choice) and we don’t accuse them of supporting murder because they drink Coke.

  52. In fact, one of the responsibilities you agree to as a United States citizen (even when born to it), is that your actions will decide the cable package. Not voting is essentially “I am fine with whatever package the rest of the country decides.” Accessory after the fact, maybe, but still an accessory.

    The anger common among us is the fact that we would like to think we can custom-pick our cable package when reality makes that simply impossible, not with a population of this size. There’s an entire generation for whom this disappointment has yet to depart from the “teenage angst expressed as aimless rebellion” stage and into the “constructive realistic action” stage. There’s some that would rather just go without cable altogether (as a decision for the entire house-nation), not realizing the importance of it as a stabilizing force both within and without.

    We were unhappy with the choices that we were given, but clearly had different opinions about which additional packages we felt comfortable with, or with the cable company’s method of deciding what packages we could pick from, or the monopoly the cable companies seem to have about controlling who can offer packages.

  53. Exactly!. Make America Great Again is code for Let’s Go Back to the Fifties, When Nobody Questioned the Superiority of White People.

  54. I think a big contributing part of this is just how little the majority of white Trump supporters get the various bigotries on offer in the Trump campaign. They’ve lived too long in a more equal country, they never could experience it in the ways the victims have, and so they’re at a remove from it. To them, racism is the N-word, it’s epithets and not the pervasive cultural miasma that limits the opportunities that people of color have, among other things. Ditto sexism, homophobia, and the rest. Their picture of what those actions look like is entirely out of step with the lived experiences of the people it affects, and I don’t quite know how to show them that.

    My uncle would be the first person to defend me and any same sex partner I might have, were we called something mean on the street. But he doesn’t understand that not allowing us to marry is itself a form of homophobia that’s only different from the street attack in content, not form. He doesn’t see employment discrimination as a thing because there are other jobs, and why would I want to work for a homophobe anyway? He doesn’t understand, because he’s never lived under that cloud. When he looks up at the Trumpy skies today he sees they’re clear, and celebrates: he has many rationalizations for why the things gathering over my head aren’t clouds at all. I cannot show him, short of actual physical harm, what living under Trumpian homophobia does to a person.

    This made it easy for him to vote for Trump, and even easier to act baffled as to why people are upset with him when he celebrates that fact.

  55. The idea that someone can *be* a racist is actually a little bit flawed. If you do racist things, be prepared to be “called” a racist, because it’s an accurate description.

    It’s like how you get “called” an asshole when you do an assholish thing. That doesn’t describe the totality of you. I’m sure you’re very sweet to your mother. But it does describe your relationship with the person you wronged in the moment. It does describe what you are *being.*

    Voting for Trump was a racist thing. Celebrating Trump’s victory is a racist thing. If you want people to stop “calling” you a racist, stop *being* racist.

  56. @Michelle: I don’t know. And you might be right. I wish they were more demographic per state and income to look at.
    The best thing I found, at least for latino voters was the predictions done by pew studies (that were wrong if we check the results, and they underestimated latino voters for Trump, it gives Trump 20% vs Hillary 60%, still twice as high than the masochist average). Excluding the obvious observations (millennial and young people tends to be more liberal and becoming more conservative with age), the biggest difference is between Latino whose first language is English or who are bilingual (around 20%) vs people who mostly speech Spanish (10%) and this is obviously a social class divide. And the more they are educated, the least likely they are to vote for Clinton and the more they are to vote for Trump (another social class divide), but the interesting thing is that Trump percentage stays high also with people that have only an high school diploma (that doesn’t usually give opportunity for high pay job).
    Another interesting fact is that they divided the vote between Mexican latino and non Mexican (that I think it includes Cuban), and while the Clinton vote didn’t change between the 2 (around 58% in both case in the pew predictions), the Mexican were the most likely to vote for Trump (21% vs 15%).

    We know that the white working class and white women went for Trump, but we don’t know much about the other demographics or what happen in different states. I’m not a citizen and I cannot vote, but I work in California so what I see here (deep blue state) doesn’t represent the reality of other states, I know upper middle class Mexicans that were pissed by Trump victory (some are family), and just a tiny bit minority who voted for him due to conservative open market policy and tax reform policies (utilitarism is more important than social issues for a great percentage of the population in a money driven country, in particular if they are not with their ass in the street,,,)

  57. I understand why Democrats are angry, and sad, and lashing out at Trump supporters right now. But it is inaccurate and counterproductive to call all Trump supporters racists. In reality, racists are a small part of both parties, and when you call someone a racist or a sexist (or any other word that would get a person *fired* if it was true) just because they voted differently from you… is a huge reason why they voted differently from you.

    No, just no. This country contains a vast swath of racism. It always has and it’s gotten worse. I know, I’m surrounded by it even in Massachusetts, that bluest of states. You can tell yourself that racists are ‘only a small part of both parties’, but it’s just a lie you’re telling yourself to avoid an uncomfortable truth, and I ain’t playing along.

  58. I know you like to do “troll-like” posts from time-to-time to drive discussion or maybe simply to drive more traffic to your site. From that aspect it’s fine, but it’s not a great analogy or a useful one. I’m generally a fan of yours, and I read your books and follow your blog pretty religiously, but this one is disappointing. It is a step above joining the “Not my President” protests, but not by much.
    Just because you say something is true doesn’t make it true. You might as well say that anyone that votes is endorsing lying, since we all know politicians lie.
    I might as easily say that all Hillary voters are voting for institutionalized crime, and you would counter with “No, I’m not. She’s never been convicted of any crime.” I counter with, “It’s right there in the fine print.” You say, “But I don’t read the fine print, it’s always the same thing, blah, blah, blah.” I could argue that it wasn’t just in the fine print, it was right in front all along. People have been trying to show you for years, one investigation after another, but somehow she always manages to sidestep the conviction. You would of course counter with, “She’s the most investigated person alive and they have never proven anything.” And then I look at you with an eyebrow raised and say, “Really?” She is such a special snowflake that prosecutors and law enforcement agents enjoy wasting their time and money for no reason, other than harassment? Because so many other people are having the same problem.
    But even that is beside the point. I don’t believe that the people that voted for Hillary are voting for institutionalized crime. I think they are hopeful, good people, and whether it’s because she is a woman or because they like her policies, I think they are voting with good intentions. If you really believe Hillary is a nice lady you are being willfully ignorant, and that is really not your style, John. Not normally. If anything you are generally thoughtful and you do your homework. That’s what makes me question the motivation behind this post.
    I get that people are upset. A lot of my friends are scared and perplexed, much as I felt when Reagan was elected. I was sure we were going to nuclear war. And just as I overreacted then, I think a lot of people are overreacting now, and rhetoric like you have posted with this entry is only fueling the fear, rage and hatred that everyone on the left side of the isle would have been pointing at and crying foul if the shoe had been on the other foot.

  59. I normally have much sympathy for those who vote for third parties, since the two main ones often offer the voters (deeply) flawed candidates & policies – but in this particular election I have no sympathy for them at all.
    To me those who voted for third parties or wrote in Sanders in swing states in this election were so in awe of their own high principles that they didn’t mind risking that a racist, sexist and homophobic candidate won. I see them as much as enablers as those Conservatives who knew Trump was vile but voted for him anyway.

    (Yes, I actually think less of third partyists and vote spoilers than I do of Trump voters who followed this Pied Piper out of some kind of dumb, existential Angst. The former actually knew what they were doing.)

  60. Icarus: raise your hand if Thanksgiving with the family is gonna be all sorts of awkward.

    I sincerely hope that white folks in this boat make it awkward. One of the reasons (certainly not the only, but one of the reasons) white folks find their racist relatives awkward and uncomfortable to be around is that we feel guilty for not challenging them. We freeze in the moment, or we don’t want to be disrespectful. But there is respect in trusting our loved ones to hear us out, and to care about us enough to meet us halfway. We may not be able to completely change their minds, but they’re the ones we have the best shot of convincing.

    Not everyone can do this, and folks need to manage their own mental health around family. But if you’re a white person with a racist, sexist family member–especially if you’re a white straight dude–then being your cousin’s keeper is one of the most effective forms of activism you can undertake. It takes a lot of love, and a lot of patience, and it’s not going to earn us any cookies or pats on the back. But it’s how we fix this.

    As for racist people versus racist actions: Racism is a system of institutional violence and discrimination. Humans are a bit like coral: we are individual organisms, but we’re also part of a larger entity that has a shape. You can look at an individual polyp and say “this isn’t the same shape as the larger coral colony,” but it is part of that colony, and that colony is the shape it is because of the polyps in it and the calcium they excrete.

    Unlike coral, however, we have free will and the capacity to reason. We can, individually and collectively, change our shape. But we don’t get there by looking at our collective shape and going “but this isn’t on me because I am not individually that shape.” We get there by recognizing the role we individually play in creating that greater shape, and doing what we can to use our individual role to affect the whole.

  61. Now that the voters have chosen to Make America Great Again™ I’m having a hard time deciding if I want a Father Knows Best, America, a My Three Sons America, or a Leave it to Beaver America. I worry that we’ll more likely end up with a Gilligan’s Island America or Green Acres America though.

  62. “I’m not whining over name calling. I’m saying it is a logical fallacy to call a non-racist a racist.”

    And I’m saying that if a person does racist things, then to call them a non-racist is a logical fallacy.

    And yes, voting for someone to do racist things in your name is a racist act, whether or not you yourself accept the racist label.

    “For example, I don’t accuse Democrats of supporting misnhandling classified data because they supported a candidate who had her maid print out things from a SCIF to bring to her (and she never apologied for).”

    You know what, go ahead and accuse me of it. If I have to choose between being accused of supporting someone who mishandled classified data, over someone who manhandles women and espouses blatantly racist, sexist, and homophobic viewpoints, I will proudly stand with the data mishandler all the way. As our host said, you get the cable package that you paid for.

  63. I don’t accept your premise that Trump is a racist. He’s been lauded for his work with minority communities for decades. Now suddenly he’s a racist because he had the temerity to run for president against a liberal.

    Well, he had the guts to stand up there and take all the false accusations and abuse from a bunch of people who aren’t half the man he is, so the least I can do is defend him, and my vote for him here.

    I like Donald Trump. I’m happy I voted for him, and yes, it bothers me that you think that makes me a racist. More than that, it bothers me that you can feel comfortable impugning the character of millions of nice folks you’ve never met. Not to mention the lovely people who live next to you. I wonder how they really feel about you labeling them RACIST. Not too good, I’ll bet, but they’re probably too polite to tell you. Pity, maybe you would learn some manners.

    Fortunately, this hateful strategy isn’t working so good for liberals any more. I notice that you’ve lost almost every state legislature, most of the governors, the House of Representatives, the Senate and now the Presidency. How’s that working out for you?

    You’ve cried wolf too many times. People are sick of this brand of divisive politics, and have voted accordingly.

  64. I am going to read this over and over and bring out this argument every time I talk to someone about this election. I had a similar–but less well thought out–argument with one of my partners before the election who was very offended and said “But I’m not a racist!” And she truly believes that she is not.

    I can say this election and the rhetoric associated therewith has made me really think hard about racism and sexism, more than I have done in a long time.

  65. Billy Quiets:

    “I don’t accept your premise that Trump is a racist.”

    He’s a racist whether you accept the premise or not, and campaigned on explicitly racist and bigoted positions.

    If you voted for him, you voted for that. You voted for racism and bigotry.

    If it makes you uncomfortable for that to be pointed out, well, good, Billy. It should.

    You should also expect I’ll keep pointing out his racism and bigotry as long as he’s in office. Just as an FYI.

  66. “Okay, so you bought a bucket of nails ’cause you needed the bucket and they didn’t sell empty ones. Did you buy nails?”

    So you bought a bucket of radioactive waste ’cause you needed the bucket and they didn’t sell empty ones. Did you buy radioactive waste?
    And now, what are you going to do with it? Store it in your basement? Bury it in your back yard? Leave it out unmarked (for you can’t label it and expect it to be taken) for the trash truck to take it to a local dump? How far is that dump from your house? From your relatives’ and friends’ houses?

  67. [Deleted because as noted in the first comment, “But Hillary was horrible too” is not on point to the discussion at hand. Let’s keep it focused, please. John A, if you want to try again, hewing closer to the topic at hand, by all means please do — JS]

  68. I’m just going to drop this here because it is slightly relevant.

    One of the other things included in the MAGA package was Mike Pence.

    Mike Pence:
    * believes electrocuting gay people can turn them straight. He believes women who have miscarriages deserve to be punished.
    * Remember the news story about a bakery being able to discriminate against gay customers because they (the bakery owners) were religious? Pence made that okay.
    * Pence believes that if a girl is raped and becomes pregnant it is her duty as a woman to birth that child.
    * MIKE PENCE DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT CIGARETTES KILL PEOPLE
    * MIKE PENCE SAID THE DISNEY MOVIE MULAN WAS EVIDENCE THAT WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE MILITARY.
    * Pence has forced woman to watch their aborted or miscarried fetuses be buried and/or cremated
    * Mike Pence does not believe in funding an HIV/AIDS vaccine because he says all the gay community needs are “better values”
    * Mike Pence believes that working mothers stunt their children’s emotional development.
    * Pence does not believe in Global Warming. Pence also does not believe in the holocaust because “the ovens were too small”
    * Pence believes that people have been “talking too much” about racism in law enforcement and that it is not an issue
    This is the man Donald Trump expects to do the “heavy lifting” in his administration, and who will be president of the Senate for the next four years.

    THIS–THIS RACISM, THIS MISOGYNY, THIS ANTI-SEMITISM, THIS HOMOPHOBIA, THIS BIGOTRY, IS WHAT YOU VOTED FOR. IF YOU VOTED FOR IT, YOU APPROVE OF IT.

    STOP DENYING IT. OWN IT.

  69. During the campaign, I curiously asked via a Tweet what price Trump supporters were willing to pay to make Trump’s motto a reality. Sadly, nobody who supported Trump ever answered. Perhaps that was because they didn’t want to admit that putting down non-whites, LGBTs, and/or women would be part of that price.

    This morning I watched a YouTube clip with Samantha Bee explaining how whites made up a very large percentage of Trump’s electoral support. The top comment response accused Bee of somehow insulting white people. That outrage made me laugh. Way too many conservative or conservative-leaning white commentators have seen nothing wrong with insulting blacks as a whole for alleged lack of social responsibility. Yet when it comes to taking responsibility for a vote which a) just internationally wiped out America’s reputation for fairness and equality and b) sanctioned public displays of bigotry, such whites rhetorically want to duck that obligation. To which I say, man up and own your screw-up.

    So far the major emotional thing that’s still unresolved for me is how distrustful I need to be around my fellow white Americans as a result of Trump’s election. Flipping the finger to a guy whose truck bears a “Hillary For Prison 2016” bumper sticker is easy. But what of an utter stranger, particularly a white one, who I encounter on the street? Do I have to be ready to snap out a comeback with a generous use of 4-letter words if that person yells I should go back to the country I came from? I don’t have answers as yet. And frankly, it disturbs me that I even have to think hard about these questions.

  70. Billy Quiets:

    So it’s divisive to point out that someone has said he fully intends to implement racist policies, but it’s not ‘divisive’ for you to cast a vote that will deprive me of my health care?

    Complaining that people are ‘divisive’ when they disagree with you rather erases the fact that you are also disagreeing with them.

    Being called “racist” has very little impact on a person’s life. As we’ve seen, it certainly didn’t prevent Trump from getting a job. But the anti-muslim, anti-immigrant policies he has plainly said he plans to implement? Those will deeply impact people’s lives. So if you’ve got more empathy for someone who’s going to be called racist than you have for the child who has to fear they’ll be torn from their lives and sent to a country they’ve never called home, you are not in a good position to lecture people on being nice to their neighbors.

    As for the legislatures “we” lost? We lost them because your party gutted the Voting Rights Act, and worked as hard as it could to disenfranchise as many people of color as it could.

    Making it harder for people of color to vote is the very definition of racism, and y’all did that. It was racist. And if you support it? If you’re pleased with the outcome because you got what you wanted by undermining democracy? You’re not only a racist; you also just plain don’t support representative democracy.

  71. John A, you are wrong about Hillary and also about the definition of treason. You have been hoodwinked by conspiracy theorists and a media machine determined to prove that there exists some justification for its long pattern of journalistic misbehavior.

    Hillary has committed no crime as far as we know. She’s innocent until proven guilty, just like the rest of us, no matter what her name is.

  72. The thing I’m having the hardest time getting over here is this: smart, educated, well-meaning people voted for party and policy over decency. You may say, “well, they’re not any of those things,” but a lot of them are. I have the unfortunate burden of calling some of them family. And they voted for marginalizing my daughter for the sake of what they perceive to be a more sound economic policy.

    Regardless of whether people think the media went out of its way to demonize him, conflagrate his comments, and just use him as a punching bag for the sake of news-entertainment he said these terrible things. I watched every single speech, and didn’t need the media telling me he was these things. It was in his words. In their delivery. The message was clear as a bell.

    The hurt – because that’s what it is; not outrage or anger – the HURT and betrayal comes from knowing people chose to ignore these terrible truths and reward this abhorrent behavior for the sake of politics.

  73. @Robert Ernest Richter , that’s why I said potentially. If Maning is a traitor, then Clinton should be prosecuted as well. If she’s found innocent in court, good for her. She was right. The problem is that her boss is blocking it from every going to court. So yes, she’s corrupt as far as I can see.

  74. Billy Quiets – how do you not accept that Trump is racist when he talks about Mexicans as rapists? I’m not in agreement for calling people who voted for him racist, but to think that he is only being called racist because he is running for President against a liberal is willfully overlooking the comments he has made over the course of the campaign. I’m also not convinced by the tone of your reply that you are the best person to be lecturing other about manners, but that’s nothing more than IMHO.

  75. Yes, a vote for Trump was an implied vote for racism. It isn’t admitted because it’s a trap. The accusation of racism is disingenuous. The cable analogy given does not account for the fact that both choices are not morally neutral, nor is it a zero-sum game.

    People know Trump’s issues and voted for him anyway because Clinton was the perceived greater evil. People who voted for Clinton believe that Trump is the greater evil. Fine. Just because there is a disagreement doesn’t make Trump voters racist, it just means they disagree on who was worse. That sounds a lot to me like every single election ever. But it does make the accusations incredibly arrogant. This says more about you than it does about them.

  76. @Bathymethus: Bad information makes bad decisions. I had two co-workers the day after the election deeply insulted that someone in their family would call them “stupid” for voting Trump, when they watch Fox News every day and know all the bad things that Hillary did! It was not solely Trump who deceived people into voting against their own best interests here.

    And I’m not sure that this is where to say it, but…one of the things we very badly need help with right now is support for the teen LGBTQ community. They are at grave risk of suicide, especially in the trans community which is being targeted very hard by the evangelical Christians now that they no longer have gay marriage as their pet issue. There are a lot of trans teens out there who don’t think they can survive four years of a Trump/Pence presidency, and anything you can do to support these kids, personally or politically, is absolutely vital. This is not a hypothetical or abstract conversation, this is kids literally dying right now. Make sure they have access to suicide support lines, make sure they have the support of their school administrators, make sure they know that they are loved for who they are and not who people think they should be. Please.

  77. Since this is a highly emotionally charged topic,  i’d like to address it at a higher level of abstraction.  Here are a few general points.

    1. Ideas have a close relationship with actions, but there is no one to one mapping. Any inference about what ideas a person holds based on what actions he takes can only be tentative and provisional.  No one action can prove dispositively that the actor believes any particular thing.  

    2. Obviously, some actions are better evidence than others for inferring beliefs.  The best evidence that a person holds a belief is a declaration from the person that he holds the belief.

    3. In elections, what we are voting for is a candidate,  not a set of ideas.  This should be obvious, since the candidate’s name appears on the ballot, not an agenda.

    4. Factors other than a candidate’s ideas are relevant to voting.  Competance for example, or experience, or stamina, or judgement.

    5. Every action we take has a whole string of downstream effects for which we are not responsible.

    6. We are morrally responible for the intended effects of our actions.

    7. We have a positive moral obligation to consider the reasonably foreseeable effects of our actions. 

    8. If those effects include both harms and benefits, the action might still be morrally acceptable if the benefits outweigh the harms,  the benefits aren’t caused by the harms,  and the benefits are at least as directly related to the action as the harms. (This is called the Principle of Double Effect)

  78. (Long-time lurker; first-time poster. Be gentle.)

    (I posted the essence of this elsewhere; and I think a couple of other posters addressed it in part.) One of the most baffling things to emerge from this election is the concern for whites who are stuck in dead-end jobs, living paycheck-to-paycheck, having to work multiple part-time/minimum-wage jobs to make ends meet when this has been the economic condition for many of our minority working-class citizens for generations without causing much concern in at least one of our major parties. To me, the racism is inherent in the idea that it’s ok for minorities to be mired in hard-scrabble existences with little hope of significant improvement, but it becomes a crisis when those conditions “trickle-down” to white people.

  79. @John S I’ll have to disagree that I was off topic, but if you want to leave this as a place for only people to agree with you, continue having your own little echo chamber and never grow as a person.

  80. John, there’s a flipside to that tweet: “Supporters of defeated presidential candidate upset and offended to be called out on their chronic antiracism. Get used to it, folks.”

  81. Derek Ramsey:

    “Just because there is a disagreement doesn’t make Trump voters racist, it just means they disagree on who was worse.”

    I don’t think you read the entry particularly carefully, or alternately, you’re trying to palm a card here. Note I said that voting for racist policies doesn’t mean you are a racist, in the day-to-day sense of the word. It does mean that you supported racism, which is a thing you grant. So I’m wondering what you actual point of disagreement is, here.

    You also point out something interesting, which is that apparently a lot of Trump voters had the luxury of thinking that whatever Clinton offered was worse than a systematic implementation of racist policies. Allow me to suggest you’re leaving a lot unexamined there.

  82. “MIKE PENCE SAID THE DISNEY MOVIE MULAN WAS EVIDENCE THAT WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN THE MILITARY.”

    @Mysteron: Wait! For real?! I mean I can believe he said the other ones but this one goes over Saturday morning cartoon level of evilness… Is like using Balto as an example of why mixed race union should be forbidden. It’s so dumb and unrealistically evil that’s hysterical. How the hell this guy passed the BAR?!

  83. There’s a guy named Patrick Thornton who has a good thread on his Twitter feed about the importance of rural and semi-rural mid-westerners getting outside their own bubbles and finding out more about the “coastal elites”, that it can’t just go one way. Thornton left Ohio because he couldn’t find a job, went east, got employed, married, etc. He knows that the family and friends he left behind don’t understand the economy they’re increasingly shut out of, and – more dangerously – don’t think they should have to learn. They know they’re good people, so they don’t need to change.

  84. @John Scalzi, Yes, that’s exactly what it means. It means that people REALLY hated Hillary and what she stood for MORE than they hated racists. It means that THAT is how much people disliked your candidate. Get over it.

  85. Ha, Ha, look at Mr. Mysteron over here, likes to judge people by their character instead of the color of their skin. Let’s all point and laugh at Mysteron!

  86. “it bothers me that you can feel comfortable impugning the character of millions of nice folks you’ve never met.”
    But that’s sort of the whole reason why racism is wrong in the first place, isn’t it? Impugning the lives, opportunities, and civil rights owed nice folks you’ve never met who happen to belong to the “wrong” group.
    If it was ok to discriminate against nice folks you’ve never met because there was some economic advantage in it for you, then racism would be A-OK in the first place (as it was through the 19th and much of the 20th century). Segregation and aparthied and, back in the day, chattel slavery, was not innuendo. It was the law of the land.
    This perfectly illustrates the idiocy that it’s worse to call someone a racist than to be one.

  87. Thank you John–this exactly explains some of my feelings. I’ve told one of my nephews that the hardest thing for me this election is that I’ve lost some respect for people I love because of Trump. Something that’s never happened in other elections all the way back to Nixon/McGovern, my first election. Family who voted for Reagan–no problem. But this one hit really deep.
    I still love ’em, but now’s there’s a sigh that goes along with it.

  88. Kilroy, it’s useless for you to try to ruin my reputation. I assure you it’s already a complete shambles. ;)

  89. @DerekRamsey

    People know Trump’s issues and voted for him anyway because Clinton was the perceived greater evil.

    Or people knew Trump’s issues and they weren’t issues at all. Now that’s the Trump voter I find truly deeply deplorable. (Billy Quiets, shakauvm & Todd Moody, let’s just take your objection as read and give the Bingo Card a rest.) Michael Kisnley put a rather nice burn on George H. Bush, I’ve rememberd for over twenty years: “He’s nice enough to not want to be associated with a personal attack, but he’s not nice enough not to make it in the first place.”

    As I said upthread, if you can’t even been grown-up enough to own your vote, and the consequences of your choice, maybe you shouldn’t be voting at all.

  90. @Mysteron: there are not palms big enough for this facepalm… Thank you, you managed to make me laugh hard at the new vice president idiocy :)

  91. Thanks for this post. I tried to express a similar train of thought on twitter. But I also delved into how structural racism, implicit biases, and unconscious prejudices are so much a part of the air we breath as American whites that it actually requires deliberate effort to be aware of those tendencies in ourselves and fight against them. It also requires that we be willing to listen to members of marginalized groups and adjust our behavior accordingly. If someone impacted by racism tells you that something you said or did is racist, you have to be willing to truly listen or you will never become a better human being.

    I wrote a lot more, but then realized it contained more of a personal nature than I was comfortable sharing here. I do want to point out, though, that it’s not just racism (and sexism and homophobia) in play with this decision. My fellow white Americans (and Trump’s electorate was overwhelmingly white America, so let’s not pussyfoot around reality) decided their racial privilege was more important than anything else. And that ‘anything else’ included installing a hate-filled abusive bigot, archetypal bully, and a person who brags about sexual assault and has multiple accusations of sexual assault and rape against him into the highest office in our land. All of that hits some very vulnerable aspects of our psyche for many of the rest of us in this country. And that’s true even though some of us didn’t realize we were vulnerable in that way until it happened.

    Everything you tell yourself to try to justify or rationalize that choice is a lie. Try to at least be honest with yourself. That’s the place to start. Once you can be honest, the next step is to decide if you’re okay with being that sort of human being or if you would like to change. And if you would like to change, you can. Please, consider trying to be a better human being than you are today. There’s always room for improvement in all of us. I try to learn and do better every day, even when it’s hard.

  92. Yes, that’s exactly what it means. It means that people REALLY hated Hillary and what she stood for MORE than they hated racists. It means that THAT is how much people disliked your candidate. Get over it.
    I, for one, have no intention of getting over it.

    People know Trump’s issues and voted for him anyway because Clinton was the perceived greater evil. People who voted for Clinton believe that Trump is the greater evil. Fine. Just because there is a disagreement doesn’t make Trump voters racist, it just means they disagree on who was worse. ,/i>

    You go ahead and comfort yourself with that. You still voted for a racist who will enact racist policies.

  93. @rochrist, then get a better candidate in 4 years. Just stop calling people racists because they disliked your prefered candidate SO much that they voted for him anyway.

  94. Hi John,

    Precisely right. Which is why I didn’t vote for HBO this time around.

    You also point out something interesting, which is that apparently a lot of Trump voters had the luxury of thinking that whatever Clinton offered was worse than a systematic implementation of racist policies. Allow me to suggest you’re leaving a lot unexamined there.

    And the people blithely ignoring the significant defects in Mrs. Clinton’s character and history also leaving a lot unexamined.

    Given the option between hard left, harder left, and any number of acceptable moderates, the Dems tossed the acceptable moderates over the side. Perhaps they will do better when they learn to listen to the concerns of people that are not like themselves.

    But that seems unlikely when the first, last, and only arguments being offered is that the only explanation for Trump is racism, sexism, et. al.

    Regards,
    Dann

  95. Wanting to keep terrorists out of your country does not make you a racist. It makes you a great president as protecting your citizens is one of the primary roles of the president. By your your own flawed reasoning, that would mean that every black person who voted for Obama are also racist, because they clearly are all anti-white. You need some lessons in logic.

  96. So, someone has probably already said this, but… as on The Simpsons: Fox News, Not Racist but #1 with Racists! (sorry, few minutes free at work.. enough to read the blog, but not 110 comments!!)

  97. My husband and I have had long conversations during the past couple days regarding this issue. We find that we feel like there is a difference between what is true and what is helpful. When people feel labelled, it is difficult to build bridges with them. Many folks that haven’t been educated about the nuances of racism feel that they are being called racists when their systemic racism is pointed out to them, and that makes them defensive and resistant to listening to what people have to say – brain science bears this out. I think there’s a place for naming something for what it is – some of us have to be the truth-pointer-outers. On the other hand, people’s minds only change when we can get around their defensiveness – through the power of story, through values that are shared, through using language that listens to them too. So it depends on the goal – is the goal to state the truth, or is the goal to actually change people’s minds. I absolutely agree that signing on with Trump was signing on to a package deal of institutional racism (and some good-old not-hidden-at-all racism thrown in for good measure). And I don’t think I’m going to win over any of my relatives and friends to voting away from that next time if I start with that line – I have to instead start a conversation listening to what they’re upset about, tell stories that challenge them to think differently, blah blah blah.

    Bottom line – people’s minds and hearts don’t change when they’re on the defense. Sometimes, if its approached well, their minds do change. Sometimes they won’t change, and then we have to fight them. But it works better in the the end if don’t start there.

    And yes, for some folks – LGBTQ, ethnic minorities, they’ve been backed into a corner by this country for a long time. They have run out of patience for starting gentle conversations, and I don’t blame them. I think I owe it to them to take my turn with those conversations on their behalf.

  98. johnjaylward: It means that people REALLY hated Hillary and what she stood for MORE than they hated racists. It means that THAT is how much people disliked your candidate. Get over it.

    Why should I, or anyone, get over it? The reasons people have for voting for Trump do not change the fact that in so doing they voted to support racism. I acknowledge what I voted for in voting Clinton, the good and the bad. That some people were voting against Hillary doesn’t change what they actually voted FOR, in my opinion. Why aren’t many Trump supporters willing to acknowledge that part of what they voted for?

  99. johnjaylward

    And that’s why I said you don’t know what you’re talking about. Treason is a very specific charge, and there is no plausible universe where anything Hillary can reasonably be accused of amounts to treason. Her situation is not comparable to Manning’s, and she has not received special treatment by not being prosecuted.

    I want to respond to one other thing you said:
    “Yes, that’s exactly what it means. It means that people REALLY hated Hillary and what she stood for MORE than they hated racists. It means that THAT is how much people disliked your candidate.”

    You’re right. And that makes them racists.

    Get over it.

  100. Steph – from the bottom of my heart, thank you. I know that you catch more flies with honey. It’s just that I have been putting out honey my entire life and I have none left to give.

  101. @John Scalzi

    “Note I said that voting for racist policies doesn’t mean you are a racist, in the day-to-day sense of the word.”

    Correct, but you also said that Trump supporters were abetting racism. Is there really a meaningful difference between being a racist and actively encouraging racism?

    “You also point out something interesting, which is that apparently a lot of Trump voters had the luxury of thinking that whatever Clinton offered was worse than a systematic implementation of racist policies. Allow me to suggest you’re leaving a lot unexamined there.”

    Indeed! This is exactly my point. What Democrats fail to realize is the depth of disgust that Republicans hold for Clinton. It mirrors the disgust that Democrats have for Trump. If Republicans happened to be right that Clinton was worse than systematic racism, it would be pretty damning for Democrats. Whether Ds or Rs are correct isn’t really my point at all, nor would it be appropriate to debate in this forum.

  102. @johnjaylward, I have a better idea. Why don’t you exercise some personal responsibility and stop blaming others for your tacit approval of a hot-headed bigot occupying the White House for the next four years. Own your vote for racism.

  103. Johnjaylward:

    However, who Trump voters hated more is not really the point, the point is they willingly and with full knowledge voted for racism. And, I suppose, if you hated Clinton enough to be willing to sign on to racism, that’s interesting, but doesn’t change the fact that when it’s pointed out that you’ve voted for racism, there’s no defense against that.

    Derek Ramsey:

    “Correct, but you also said that Trump supporters were abetting racism. Is there really a meaningful difference between being a racist and actively encouraging racism?”

    What an excellent question! I leave it to you to puzzle it out.

    As noted above, I think that the argument that Trump voters preferred racism over Clinton is interesting, but doesn’t change the fundamental issue that they voted for racism. Also, of course, if their primary motivator was disgust at Clinton, they could have voted for other candidates, with the same result of not giving their vote to Clinton.

    Folks in general:

    Remember to be polite to each other.

  104. Look up who Trump is considering for Finance & EPA ‘transitions’. Hint: JP Morgan[1] & known climate denialist – his message is: “Our EPA will abandon political agendas and focus on its core mission — clean air and clean water,”.

    If you’re still in shock, don’t be. A very dirty deal was done, that essentially traded Progressivism against potential Civil Unrest (the real kind that carries guns & has Unions / Security services behind it). Oh, and it used the FBI to enact it – or did you think Comey ‘accidentally’ timed those email investigations? (Again, look closely at just who is being considered for Homeland Security – hint, it’s David Clarke, who happens to be black).

    They’ll fund the following:

    Infrastructure (‘jobs for the boys / back-handers’ – all the old techs)
    MIC spending
    And so on.

    And the markets didn’t even blink, they knew the fix was in.

    If you think that this is purely a racist issue, I’d suggest looking up David Clarke:

    These temper tantrums from these radical anarchists must be quelled. There is no legitimate reason to protest the will of the people. David Clarke, Twitter, 9th Nov 2016

    So, if you’re still worried about the little things like being offended when you read nasty things, welcome to reality (or, rather – the irreal of the hyper-reality that’s used to trash reality).

    [1] JPMorgan says Trump’s win is ‘pro-growth’ for the market; buy infrastructure stocks CNBC 10th Nov 2016

    Dow Industrials Hit New Intraday High WSJ 10th Nov 2016

    ~

    THEY CHEAT.

    YOU DO NOT.

    THEY WIN.

    WE DID TRY TO WARN YOU, BUT YOU WERE MORE FOCUSED ON YOUR OWN IRREALITY.

  105. I’m staying in Nicaragua as long as possible. Yeah, half of the US is completely racist — not that here is perfect, but having a black grandfather doesn’t make a person in Nicaragua black. The whole pollution race theory, the blaming of blacks for how they’re treated, is simply appalling and contrary to the stated ideals of the country, not that the country ever lived by those stated ideals (see slavery).

    If we’d never lied to ourselves about our belief that all men, except blacks, were created equal, we wouldn’t have this contradiction built in to our culture, that on one hand, great fortunes were made by not paying the help and deciding that the slaves deserved their slavery collectively rather than the classical individually. Or even the medieval Islamic position that masters who sired children on their slaves had special obligations to them. We’ve had to believe in black inferiority to justify the contradiction between our ideals and our practice. Half the country elected a man who denied that another man was eligible to be President because of his race and his father’s religion and made up a story claiming that contemporary newspaper accounts of Obama’s birth in Hawaii were lies. And all these people will have a black friend whose existence proves that he’s exceptional and that they’re not racist.

  106. Ok, let me try again as JS originally said after he deleted my post:

    We all make compromises when we vote. I am very much pro-life. However, I voted for Obama 8 years ago. That did not “magically” make me pro-choice. It means that I agreed with enough of his policies that I voted for him DESPITE the fact that he thinks it’s OK to kill babies

    Of the many things that Trump this year was running under, racism was one of them. People voted for him despite that fact that he’s a racist.

  107. To shakauvm, Kat Ling, and cranapia; wiredog; this article:

    “If a person does racist things, and supports racist propaganda, then even if they don’t call themselves racists or think of themselves as racists, they ARE racists, and all the whining over that, or calling it name-calling, doesn’t make it inaccurate.” – Kat Ling

    Sure. If they do racist things, and support racist propaganda, then they are racists. I think everyone can agree with that. The slippery slope fallacy here is that you’re saying anyone who voted for Donald Trump does racist things and supports racist propaganda. Certainly, there is no doing racist things or racist actions for many of Trump’s supporters, and as the article above mentions, you might vote for Donald Trump without supporting racist propaganda. It might still be a vote for racism (which I disagree with, but I’ll get to that a bit later), but it doesn’t mean you support it. It’s the same compromise many Sanders supporters used when voting for Hillary Clinton: they don’t necessarily agree with all of her policies, but it’s still better than the alternative. It flows right into what I think is a good quote from shakauvm: “For example, I don’t accuse Democrats of supporting misnhandling[sic] classified data because they supported a candidate who had her maid print out things from a SCIF to bring to her (and she never apologied[sic] for).” While I think the email issue vastly overblown and not even close to as serious as some want to make it out to be, the basic point still stands. You can support a candidate WITHOUT supporting EVERYTHING that candidate stands for.

    “No, I’m going to play this game any more. Don’t you dare tell Mexican, Muslims and African-Americans that people who voted for a man that treated them with utter contempt are “overwhelmingly kind, generous, patriotic, and good folk.” You’re not. You can own, that or not. You can get all condescending and pissy towards people for whom racism is a MUCH bigger issue than Hillary Clinton not buying herself a second Blackberry and learning how to work a bloody printer.” – cranapia

    This is simply fundamentally untrue. Your vote doesn’t determine your character. I know plenty of good people who voted for Trump, great families that simply I feel were uninformed in their choices, but still good people nonetheless; some have really helped me out during some of my struggles. Likewise, I know some nasty people that voted for Hillary Clinton. Who you vote for doesn’t determine how good of a person you are. It’s that kind of open thinking and “shaming” that drove a significant amount of the population to vote for Trump.

    “I understand why Democrats are angry, and sad, and lashing out at Trump supporters right now. But it is inaccurate and counterproductive to call all Trump supporters racists. In reality, racists are a small part of both parties, and when you call someone a racist or a sexist (or any other word that would get a person *fired* if it was true) just because they voted differently from you… is a huge reason why they voted differently from you.” – shakauvm

    Unfortunately, it’s been one party that has really drawn in the racists of this country, and one party that has really impeded the political process, and it is a false equivalence to say that it occurs equally in both parties as cranapia notes. Unfortunately, that party was just voted into power in the presidency, the senate, and the house. However, that’s merely a tangent and not really the issue. I completely agree with you: it IS inaccurate and counterproductive to call all Trump supporters racists, sexists, or homophobes. And you’re entirely right that it would get that person fired if true, and is a (not huge, but still not insignificant) reason that Trump supporters were driven to vote for the Donald. Insult (deservingly) the candidate all you want, but it is against your better interests to insult the candidates supporters. Nobody has ever thought “Oh wow, this person insulted me. Well, I’m definitely on their side now.” This strategy does not work, and this election proved it.

    “Occam’s Racist: The notion that when confronted with multiple competing hypotheses for why a person supported racist actions, the simplest and best explanation is that they are actually a racist.” – wiredog

    Sure. But let’s go a step further with this, since you’re implying that Donald Trump supporters are racists and it’s that simple: Occam’s Election: The notion that when confronted with multiple hypotheses for why a candidate was elected, the simplest and best explanation is that the voters thought that candidate was better. I think it’s much easier and more truthful to say that the majority of voters (not all, I’ll concede that, but the vast vast majority) simply thought Donald Trump was the better candidate between the two, and not that the majority of voters have a serious and severe personality deficiency.

    Finally, on the article above: I thought it was good and well-written. I don’t necessarily like how it claims that you should never be nice to Trump supporters (you can’t beat hate with hate), but I’m not going on that tangent and am going to stay on topic as requested. I think this quote right here marks the end of a Trump supporter’s thinking on the topic: “And others say to you, but apparently you like these other things more than you hate racism, because you agreed to the racism in order to get these other things.” I think at that point, a supporter will either divert like you did, or simply say, “Yeah. So what?” That issue isn’t as big as some other issues in their minds, and they place more importance on those other issues. It is possible that one can hate racism and think that other issues are more important; I think that’s the vast majority of Trump supporters right there. The value you place on a certain issue affects your voting process more than anything. Some people, like the author above, place a very high importance on that. Others, don’t. That’s OK. That’s why this is a democracy. Even if I don’t agree with someone, even if I don’t like the results, the reality is that they were freely and fairly voted by the populace. If that doesn’t legitimize their authority, then it’s hypocritical and intellectually dishonest to call this a free and fair country, because at this point it’s only free and fair if others agree with you. This logic also applies to the audience that you’re critical of, and a party that I’ve been critical of recently for their hypocrisy in action, the conservatives and the political right under the Republicans. So it does go both ways.

    So to me, it’s no surprise that when you called a large, heterogeneous group of people racist, you received backlash for it. If you didn’t expect that, then you’re disconnected from reality. I also think it’s directly contradictory for you to say statements like these: “If you vote for a bigot who has bigoted plans, you need to be aware of what that says about you, and your complicity in those plans.” and “This just in: supporters of a racist presidential candidate upset and offended to be called out on their racism. Get used to it, folks.”, and then follow it up with an article that directly says this: “I think you can very easily make the argument that a lot people who voted for Trump are not and would not actively be racist to another person in their day-to-day lives. I live among Trump voters, and the ones I live among are lovely and kind and perfect neighbors. They are what nearly anyone would describe as good people, me included. As are, I think, the majority of the people who voted for Trump.” and “And you may argue that voting for racism as part of a larger package deal does not a racist make, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree”, since those statements are complete opposites of one another and you proved the former statements false with the writing of this article. So, in sum, I disagree that voting for racism as a larger package deal makes that voter a racist, and I also think that directly insulting them and calling them that when it is untrue is not only a strategy that doesn’t work, but also one that will continue this divisive culture in the United States. I saw one person (shakauvm) try to tread the line of compromise and rationality (even if I think his final decision to vote for Trump was misinformed and wrong, but you’re free to disagree and debate that in our free society), and was immediately shouted down and called something he isn’t by 2 others (Kat Ling and cranapia) at the time of my writing this reply. This is why candidates like Donald Trump arose. This is why this will continue to happen. If someone says outright “I voted for Trump because I think women shouldn’t be allowed to rule this country”, then yes, that opinion doesn’t deserve merit or respect and should be treated in that manner. But when people say “I disagree with Donald Trump’s rasist/sexist/homophobic rhetoric, but I still voted for him because…”, we as a society are doing a disservice by getting caught up with that first part and ignoring the rest. We can all use a little bit of empathy; on both sides of the discussion. Nothing will ever be solved simply by yelling at someone that they’re wrong and a bad person. You solve issues by sitting down with one another and rationally discussing your logic, seeing where that other person is coming from, and by arguing your point and explaining why you disagree with their rationale rather than putting your opinions on a moral pedestal and shaming them for theirs.

  108. @john scalzi, and I can argue that voting for pro-choice candidates is inexcusable as well. I’m sure many americans feel that way. Just because people have to settle for a lesser evil, does not automatically make them the largest evil of the candidate they voted for.

  109. @Mysteron in the post that JS deleted, I stated that I voted 3rd party this election. I personally could not conscience myself to vote for either Hillary or Trump.

  110. Yesterday morning, I listened to a white coworker (I am white, as well) try to tell a black coworker that we would have no problems if everyone would obey the law (and respect law enforcement), while my block coworker tried to explain to the white one how that is not the case from his own personal experience. Much like men often don’t see sexual harassment first hand, because my white officemate has never experienced police harassment due to his skin color, he can’t believe that it is a problem.

  111. @johnjaylward Then I apologize for the error. However that does not excuse your defense of those who voted in support of racism, bigotry, homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-science, anti-education, and anti-First, Fourth, and Ninth Amendments as the “lesser” of two evils.

  112. Unfortunately, some of the people who voted for Trump knew full well what they were getting. I have a cousin who the day after was very obviously happy with those parts (racism, bigotry, homophobia).

  113. Everyone has been an asshole at one time or another. Everyone has done or said something sexist or racist or ableist or biased at one time or another. We may not have meant to, we might not have known we were doing it, but we’ve all done it.

    I think what’s important is how you handle it. When you become aware of what you’ve done in the past (or are doing) do you double down on defending your actions? Or do you learn from them, apologize if appropriate, acknowledge what was wrong, say you won’t do it again?

    Two ways we judge our politicians are on their past actions and statements, and on their statements during the campaign process. If their past actions don’t match their current statements, it’s worth asking why. Are they lying? Or have they learned, grown, changed, admitted a mistake? If they match, are we seeing the true person?

    Trump in the past has taken racist actions – refusing to rent to black people – and this is verifiable by court records. But wait, you say, that was decades ago! People can change! Yes, they can. But Trump, by his own words and deeds, has NOT changed. He acted in a racist way then; he’s still making racist statements now. If you voted for Trump, you didn’t vote for someone who had a past history of racism but is now repudiating it; you voted for someone who is still, actively, espousing racism. Does that mean you too are a racist? Not automatically, no. Does that mean you think racism is an acceptable behavior in a president? Yes. Yes, it does.

    Billy Quiets – I appreciate that you are trying to communicate a viewpoint that is foreign to me, and I think that is valuable; no one learns if they live in an echo chamber. But communication needs to be two-way. For instance you said that Trump is being labeled a racist because he ran against a liberal. I’d like to understand how you came to that conclusion. I consider him to be a racist for his own statements made during this campaign – that a judge could not be fair because he is of Mexican heritage, that Mexicans are rapists, that Muslims should be banned from America…there are more. He made those statements; he doesn’t deny making them; he hasn’t backed away from them. Why are those statements not racist? I considered him a racist all the way back in the Republican primaries, and he was not running against a liberal then.

  114. @johnjaylward

    There is a significant problem with your comparison of Obama being pro-choice and Trump being Racist:

    Being pro-choice doesn’t mean you think it’s okay to kill babies, regardless of how much you want to oversimplify the issue by focusing on the admitted reality of the result. It means that a woman should be able to make a choice concerning her own reproductive health without obstruction from the government. A mother should be able to choose to carry a child to term when her own health is at risk or not. A mother should be able to choose whether or not to carry a child to term even if the result is that life will be short and full of suffering for both the mother and the child.

  115. Also, as a reminder to everyone: Continuing to drag Hillary Clinton into the discussion is not going to be useful. The discussion is Trump, his racist policies, and to what extent those who voted for those policies are complicit in their racism. I don’t care, nor is it particularly relevant for the discussion, what how awful you believe Clinton and her policies are. Let’s take as read that people who voted for Trump probably didn’t want Clinton as president, for whatever reasons, and otherwise stay on topic, please. If you can’t do that, I’ll start malleting some more. Thanks.

  116. @mysteron, evil is relative. Evil is the opposite of one’s own moral guide of right. For my wife, who voted for Trump, this was pro-life. Every candidate this race (3rd party included) was pro-choice except for Trump. That was her deciding factor.

  117. @johnjaylward

    It’s important to note here that I’m Catholic and pro-life, but also understand I don’t have the right to force that on others. All I can offer them is counseling if they seek it, compassion, and comfort.

  118. @Brandon, I’ll respectfully disagree about what point we decide to call something a baby and stop there as it’s off topic.

  119. Lee, everyone who voted for Trump knew full well what they were getting. It’s been on full display. It’s not something he wanted or ever attempted to disguise. It was his main selling point. The only distinction among his voters is whether they were enthusiastic about the racism, sexism, homophobia, and mocking of disabled people or whether they were just perfectly fine (if perhaps publicly disdainful) accepting that part of it as long as he promised to maintain their structural privilege.

  120. Two short comments:

    1. Just because a racist action (like voting for a racist) was not meant personally, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t feel that way. You can’t vote for a racist and then expect your black/Muslim/latinx neighbour think of you as a good guy.

    2. I’m German. We’ve seen this before. “I was no Nazi. I just wanted the trains to run on time.” And that clearly was more important to many people than the fact that these trains would bring their neighbours to Auschwitz and Treblinka. Those were perfectly normal people, who never would’ve thought of themselves as bigots or racists.

  121. People voted for him despite that fact that he’s a racist.

    Assertion without evidence.

    I can just as easily assert that racism (and xenophobia and homophobia) were his biggest selling points.

  122. White people are realizing, for the first time, that racism never went away. Woke nonwhites are saying “how could you not NOTICE this shit??”

    That’s because White people looked only at HBO, and didn’t notice Cinemax. White people have always had the option of changing the channel, even the most poor, broke, down-and-out White people. Nonwhites have been forced to watch Cinemax.

  123. @rochrist, that is without assertion as well. It was a selling point for sure, no one is denying that. But saying it’s his biggest has not backing to it. However I know for a fact that my statement is true. I know black americans who voted for trump despite him being racist. weather or not that is a majority is obviously up for grabs.

  124. omg, so many typos in my last comment… why can’t I edit!:

    @rochrist, that is without evidence as well. It was a selling point for sure, no one is denying that. But saying it’s his biggest has no backing to it. However, I know for a fact that my statement is true. I know black americans who voted for Trump despite him being racist. whether or not that is a majority is obviously up for grabs.

  125. I know every Democrat and every Republican President is going to murder children. If I vote for someone who explicitly rejects ever murdering children for America’s foreign policy objectives, then I am “throwing my vote away” over my self-entitled pie-in-the-sky ethics and damaging the prospects of the Good Future Child Murderer. I voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. If as a consequence people went online everyday and shouted Child Murderer at me, I would tune them out. Most of the people here will not own the consequences of voting for Democratic candidates in the manner we have proposed Trump voters own their vote. I certainly don’t.

    As a practical matter the racism charge sticks in this particular case because Trump explicitly used it in his campaign appeal and because we believe it motivated many of his voters. If there was implicit in some of his policy statements, but he never made a big deal of it in public and large parts of his base did not evince overt racism, then it would be kind of pointless to ascribe support for Cinemax on those HBO subscribers. Just as if Clinton said “we’re gonna hella murder lot’s of kids in Syria in pursuit of our legitimate foreign policy objectives” at every rally, then one could label all HRC voters as supporting child murder.

    As a general argument, Scalzi’s post might be technically correct, but it fails at having any significant utility for most circumstances. But I understand the motivation. I am pretty damn angry and depressed today too. I saw the “orphanage” girls whose non-citizen parents have been deported watch the election results in something approaching abject terror. I hope that most citizens will stand up for these fellow Americans, regardless of who they voted for. That will prove who supports racism and who does not.

  126. @Bryan Luebke

    Wanting to keep terrorists out of your country does not make you a racist.

    Deeming over a billion Muslims (including millions of American citizens) terrorists solely because of their religion does make a racist. And a religious bigot. And someone in dire need of a remedial course in American History, due to the burning irony of how many Trump voters are directly descended from white folks seeking respite from religious persecution in the Old Countries.

    @Scott Morizot

    The only distinction among his voters is whether they were enthusiastic about the racism, sexism, homophobia, and mocking of disabled people or whether they were just perfectly fine (if perhaps publicly disdainful) accepting that part of it as long as he promised to maintain their structural privilege.

    YES! And practically, its a distinction without a difference no matter how desperately far too may people want to make it so. TBH, I don’t give a wet shart if a specific Trump voter is really keen to see me dead or tepidly considers that acceptable collateral damage. I don’t want anyone trying to electrocute my gay away.

  127. Steph said:

    I think I owe it to them to take my turn with those conversations on their behalf.

    I agree 100%, with this and the rest of what you wrote. It’s exhausting to think of having to do that work, when it feels like we (women and other marginalized folk) have had to be the bridge-builders for so long. But I’ve got a lot of privilege and that’s one way I can use it for good.

  128. John,

    Not much more than a week ago you posted a piece about your really nice neighbors who were in all likelihood going to vote for Trump because they were Republican. What do you think their response to this piece would be? Would you show it to them?

  129. @Privateiron pretend it’s pre-civil war and you are an abolitionist:

    “I know every presidential candidate ever will support slavery. If I vote for someone who explicitly rejects slavery over other important policies of our time, then ‘I’m throwing my vote away'”

    Your own perceived notions of what is important to you is completely subjective. If abolitionists did not make their voices heard, however ineffectual their actual votes were, it would have taken a lot longer to get rid of slavery.

    Saying people should not vote for their ideal view of how America should work is going against the very foundations of what our voting process is for.

    To bring this around to the topic, what I’m saying is that Trump’s racism, while horrible, was less horrible then other injustices that some voters see happening.

    A voter has never been required to agree with all of a candidate’s policies. Saying that people who vote for Trump are also racist is just as disingenuous and bigoted as saying that all people who vote for Obama or Hillary are pro-choice.

    You are forming a stereotype of people you disagree with because you want to form a narrative that fits your worldview.

  130. Theophylact:

    Do you believe they don’t already read my blog? If so, why?,

    I assume some do, some don’t, and that some who do don’t read every post. I assume that those who do read it know where you stand politically and are mostly cool with it.

    But you’ve just called them racists, you know.

  131. @Theophylact :

    I’m fairly sure John’s neighbours can work the magic internet box without his help, and they’re perfectly capable of sharing their views if they’re so inclined.

    Back to the matter in hand, let me drop a spoiler on you: Being a nice racist is not a contradiction in terms. I have a grand-aunt I adored, but she refused to attend my parents’ wedding because she didn’t approve of my mother marrying a black man. (And a Protestant to add insult to injury.) Didn’t meet her until I was eight, and she was sweetness and light to me until the day she died. Still racist.

  132. Theophylact:

    I said they are complicit in racism, yes. I also said they are good people who I don’t imagine being racist in their day-to-day interactions with others. Which is to say, to the extent it was possible in a few sentences, I portrayed them fairly and as having complexity. They’re not cardboard characters. They are people I like and in some cases love, and who I rely on, and who can rely on me.

    I’m pretty sure my neighbors are well aware that I think of them with this complexity.

  133. @John Scalzi

    “..doesn’t change the fundamental issue that they voted for racism.”

    A Trump supporter who believes abortion is murder might vote again and again for the trade-off of abetting racism to save lives. They voted for racism, but that’s not the whole story. The fundamental issue is too narrow and misleading. What purpose does it serve to frame it like this? Some Trump supporters are good people who made a difficult choice. I can see from the comments here that this nuance is lost on many, although not lost on you (or your neighbors).

    “they could have voted for other candidates

    You are correct, but unfortunately this does not completely avoid the moral dilemma. It’s the difference between abetting racism and standing by and allowing racism. Not as bad in a very limited sense, but still not good.

  134. Derek Ramsey:

    “They voted for racism, but that’s not the whole story.”

    As the article notes, I’m well aware it’s not the whole story, it’s part of a package deal. However, racism being part of a package deal does not excuse voting for racism. So we’re agreeing, but…. ?

  135. @johnjaylward: it is not! It’s 8% of the African American voters, and it’s low enough to be either in the masochist range (below 10% of the population) or… more likely in the rich/middle upper class range (like Ben Carlson), because be real… You are an under-represented minority until you are rich (and I cringe a bit when someone said that dirty poor, coal miner ignorant redneck white people are getting white privilege, because ok… in the US the social escalator works better than in other places but… if you don’t have hope a good school and/or you are lucky enough to meet the right people or read the right books, you are royally screwed. You are a proletarian blocked there and shit upon.
    And yes, I tend to see racism and sexist more like a social class issue, because that’s where I was born… and the social escalator in Italy has been broken for a long time. We have “Terroni”, white… for European standard people who are accused to be stupid, ignorant, criminal when the comes to the north, and people are pleasantly surprised when they are “articulate” and they don’t speak in that “weird” dialect or dressed with open shirt and golden chains… and this classism has been also brought to the work place where it was easier for a guy from the north to get a good job than for a “terrone”. And the similarity are also there with the latino community in this election where the more educated, the one that speak the main language (here is English, there is Italian) are looking down and segregating their own people. This is particularly true in city like Napoli)

    That said people for the south in Italy and minority here and first generation immigrants (whose first language is not the same of the country the have emigrated into) all over the world might still get some racist comment (the common “articulate” part, or the “T” and “N” word), but when they are part of the rich, the balance of power is completely shifted. The presidential elections have been an historical moment, and even if Hillary didn’t win, she lost by a really small margin, she was incredibly competent (even trump had to recognize it in his victory speech) and she was an hated on a personal level more than for being a woman (and I don’t think it was for the private email per se, there were things that were worst like the militaristic foreign policy as pointed out even by people like Chomsky and Zizek, the DNC scandal, what she said about Mrs Regan and HIV that obviously might have pissed the LGBT community a bit, the ovelap between corporate funding and personal cash given for speeches to the Clintons… none of those are illegal, but we cannot kid ourselves saying that the money wouldn’t influence the policies of a candidate). But no matter all of these she was really close to be president, and the next candidate might even pull it off. No matter what the result is, is still a good results for women; it’s not so far fetched to have a women as president. It still taught us that no matter what your gender is or what is your ethnicity you finally have a shot to be president… well ok, if you have the money, that still remain as an issue

  136. Mary Frances

    Looking at the analysis of voting it appears that Clinton had a much higher number of supporters in the poorest and poor households than Trump did; as household incomes increase so does the number of people voting for Trump. And, of course, she won the popular,vote.

    These facts are ignored, since they conflict with the approved storyline, but also because the people who voted for Trump don’t want to accept openly that they preferred tax cuts for themselves to helping the poorest and the poor.

    They don’t want to accept openly that they were happy to ignore the racism, the profound misogyny, the hatred of LGBTQ, indeed the hatred of just about anything which could be hated, if it would put money in their pocket.

    And so those people complain bitterly about John’s analysis of the process by which those voters got what they wanted, and, human lifespans apart, they would carry on complaining till the sun goes nova, because the chances of Trump putting money into the pockets of anyone beyond the top 1% are, for all practical purposes, zero. They will discover over the coming years that if they insist on supping with the devil then they needed a much longer spoon; it’s all very well them selling their souls for the dosh, but they’ve been conned.

    And I expect that fact to dawn fairly slowly, whereupon they will find yet more people to hate, because taking responsibility for their own actions is not in the mindset…

  137. BW, I am a card carrying member of the aclu, have been for awile. I may up my donation though.

    But how will the ACLU do anything when the supreme court will likely fill a slot with the most right wing judgethey can find and the republican senate will nust rubber stamp it?

    We are looking at potentially decades of damage to undo, assuming we even survive.

  138. @scalzi, we are disagreeing on which issues are most important to us and will lead the the least amount of injustice in the future of America.

    For some people (most hillary supporters I imagine), this mean being sure to NOT vote for a known racists.

    For other people, this means ensuring to vote for a pro-life candidate and pray that he doesn’t F everything else up.

    Some people are looking at the larger picture than his 4 years of office. He will be appointing judges who have a lifetime to make their voices heard in court.

  139. So what is the “HBO” that they wanted so much, anyway? All I see is a vague handwave that maybe you’ll get a better job Real Soon Now.

    What do they expect that will help them or theirs? Actually make their lives better, not just make other people’s lives worse for vicarious revenge and schadenfreude?

  140. @johnjaylward
    To bring this around to the topic, what I’m saying is that Trump’s racism, while horrible, was less horrible then other injustices that some voters see happening.
    What are these grave injustices? Marriage equality? Health care* for the poor? In no way infringing on peoples’ right to bear arms?

    A voter has never been required to agree with all of a candidate’s policies. Saying that people who vote for Trump are also racist is just as disingenuous and bigoted as saying that all people who vote for Obama or Hillary are pro-choice.
    The whole racism & bigotry vs. abortion comparison is a complete false equivalency. The government passing pro-choice laws in no way prevents you from choosing not to have an abortion. Repealing marriage equality very much prevents people from choosing with whom they want to share death benefits/hospital visiting rights/etc. And supporting banning all Muslims to prevent “the terrorists” from getting in is shameful.

  141. You feel it’s a false equivalency, but for a pro-life advocate, it’s a life and death decision that kills millions of people a year who don’t have a voice to object to their own execution.

  142. It’s not as though I don’t have people I know and love, some of whose views I find abhorrent. Most families are like that. Thanksgivings can famously be pretty tense even in fairly small families. There are questions I know better than to raise in many venues.

    It’s wise not to talk politics to a barber who’s shaving you with a straight razor. But in a lot of situations far short of that, it’s a good idea not to ask certain questions whose answers might make for serious discomfort.

    Case in point: I happen to be an atheist. My brother is an observant Jew who keeps a Kosher home (although he’s delighted to eat treyf outside the house). His son is a “Conservadox” rabbi with liberal political views. I would never dream of asking my brother whether he believes in God (not, in fact, a necessary condition for being observant). I would never ask my nephew his views on the Palestinian issue. I may be curious, but I’m not crazy.

  143. I didn’t read all the comments… (well I read them previously but there are 100 more now.)

    I agree somewhat with Shakauvm above.
    I also agree with you (Scalzi), but you’re talking to an echo chamber. We need to hear from more Trump voters. My guess is that most Trump voters would say that neither he nor they are racists. Perhaps they’d call themselves realist’s. My Trump voting friend will say things like, “All Blacks are lazy and living on the dole.” I’ll say, “Jim, don’t you have several Blacks working in your warehouse, how are they?” “Oh they are hard workers”, is the response. But he sees no conflict.

    Listen to conservative talk radio where semi-racists talk is the norm.
    They don’t notice the sea of racism that they are swimming in.

    The same friend had a Trump sign in his yard. One day I saw it wasn’t there anymore.
    “Jim, what happened to your Trump sign?”
    “Oh my mother is disgusted by Trump and asked me to take the sign down.”

    Then a few weeks ago I noticed the sign back up. I asked what happened.
    “Both my parents are voting for Trump now.”

  144. @johnjaylward

    And to those people I would say, “if it’s not your body, it is not your decision to make.” And regardless of how strongly you feel about it it is still a false equivalency. Increasing freedom will never be the same as restricting freedom. Trump’s racist and bigoted policies will actively restrict the freedom of millions of people. Everyone who voted for him fully knowing that that was his intention is complicit.

  145. And I didn’t even mention my cousin, a Weather Underground bombmaker (fortunately, not a successful one). She’s a perfectly delightful person.

  146. Michelle V., if a person says “I’ll hold my nose and vote for the guy with the racist platform”, that makes that person a racist. I’m sorry, but if it quacks like a duck, etc. We agreed that a racist is someone who doses racist things. Well, a racist thing to do is to vote in a guy who’s promised to do racist things – who, in fact, made it the major plank in his campaign platform. You don’t get to excuse it away by saying that you only wanted HBO.

  147. @Erik, removing rights for unborn children in the name of increasing rights for women is a false equivalency. But this is off topic, so you should probably drop it.

    We are talking about racism here, not abortion. John Scalzi said we were free to make our own analogy (I chose abortion), and you seem to be more interested in staying in your own bubble instead of trying to understand how people you disagree with think.

  148. johnjaylward: I did not understand exactly how your response fit with my post. I basically said no one takes responsibility for most of the things “their” President does in office. (Think of the optics of supporting Bill Clinton’s return to the White House after arguably committing sexual harassment there while he was an “employee.”) I left open the possibility for people like you or any American really to show where you stand on a particular issue despite whom you voted for. I am not forming a stereotype. I watched what Trump did and said. I saw large vocal groups of Trump supporters respond to those messages. So I have a prima facie case that Trump relies heavily on racism and preaches racism openly in order to get large numbers of votes. If you voted for pro life judges and tax cuts, get out and show you don’t want mass deportations, voter suppression based on race, and gerrymandering. I for one will give anybody credit if they are walking the walk. If millions of self identified Trump voters emerge and vocally oppose racist, homophobic, anti-immigrant and sexist practices, I will welcome that as a great day for America.

  149. @Stevie: the class/wealth divide is weird Trump did well with the lower income population of the rural area, and worst in more industrialized and urban states (Georgia vs California for example CNN statistics by state), and overall he did well with all the income ranges nationally getting 41% vs 52% for people with an income <$50k (and that why I looked at the states, since he seems to do better in rural poor America that have area less populated), the funny thing is that nationally the rich didn't like him, Clinton and trump were head to head with that demographic. Was the middle class (51k-99k) that sealed the deal

  150. Disclosure – I voted straight Democrat. I’ve been a Republican all my life, have been voting democrat for about three years now because I disagree with what the party has become. I officially switch to register Democrat so I could vote for Bernie Sanders at least once.

    Having said all that – I think there is still a remote chance that much of what Trump said during the election was an ample serving of Whatever The Hell He Had To Say To get Elected. Case in point – there’s numerous interviews of him saying he was pro-choice before the election.

    There’s a sliver of a shot that the more inclusionist points in his acceptance speech (“I will be President of ALL the people”) is a better look of what we’ll get. Maybe slightly a better chance than winning the lottery.

    Problem is, he’s got a LOT of followers who took that racist message and cheered. Who took it to mean that when he won, that would be America.

    And if that’s not what Trump really wanted, and he was just trying to appeal to literally whoever he had to to get elected, then he needs to shut these people down, and fast. Not asking for him to take the blame for their action, just to tell them to cut it out.

    I’d like for it to happen.

    I don’t REALLY think it will.

    But hey, I still buy lottery tickets. It’s not completely impossible. Just damn close.

  151. The point Mr. Scalzi makes, and I think as usual it is made eloquently, is that one cannot divorce the racism from the vote. It does not mean “if you voted for Trump you are racist”. But it does mean: “Be aware: what you voted for included racism.”

    @johnjaylward tells us he voted for Obama even though he is pro-life. That does not mean he is no longer pro-life (or wasn’t pro-life when he cast the vote); but it does mean that he was willing to allow for pro-choice policies. I assume that when he cast the vote, he examined this issue and made a conscious decision that he was willing to live with that. I would hope that the people who voted for Trump and are appalled by the racism in the campaign and platform did likewise. But the point of the Cinemax analogy is: you got to live with that. @johnjaylward is pro-life, but he cannot say “I voted for Obama, but I’m pro-life, so you cannot lay any of the pro-choice things that happened as a result of his victory at my feet; I did not vote for him because of his pro-choice stance, I voted for him for all these other reasons.” Similarly, the Trump voter doesn’t get to say “I’m not a racist, so you cannot lay any of the racist things that happen as a result of Trump’s victory at my feet: I did not vote for his racism, I voted for these other things he stood for.” You get the full package, and you have to own up to the whole package. I would hope that those people made that vote knowing this; and if they didn’t, then, yes, they need to be told. They don’t get to separate out the parts of the candidate they like from those they don’t like. You don’t get to say “I support X, but only agenda items 2 and 3. I am not responsible for the rest of the items.”

  152. I’m so shocked by this outcome. Beyond his racism, trump is totally unfit to be president. Like, no question. So the fact that people would vote for him (and give the Rs a majority in both houses) is really, really disturbing.

    And yeah, you are a racist if you voted for Trump. I mean, you may have black friends ™ and really love your El Salvadorian nanny, but the guy you voted for ran on an explicitly racist platform, so that’s on you. I just didn’t realize so many white people were so racist. It’s shocking to me (a white person).

    That said, I don’t think much is going to get solved by yelling at trump voters and calling them racists. Crying racism hasn’t done much to change behaviors in the past eight years. It is even more unlikely to get people to change behaviors now that it has been legitimized. Maybe we need a new word. Instead of calling someone a “racist”, let’s just call them a “fucking asshole.” As in, hey, when you yelled at that hispanic man to go back to his country, you were being a fucking asshole.” Or, “Hey bob, when you said that mexicans were job-stealing rapists, I felt like that is the kind of thing that a fucking asshole says.”

    Worth a shot.

  153. Trigger alert: I mention abortion in this comment.

    Using this fine example of Scalzian logic, a vote for HRC is a vote for abortion. There are reasonable arguments pro and con abortion, but it’s clear that many conservatives view abortion as the whole-sale slaughter of innocent children. Thus, when you vote for HRC you may not have walked into a clinic and suctioned fragments of would-be child out of it’s mother, but you took part in the killing of millions of humans-in-progress.

    Really, by this logic, we’re all complicit in despicable things, NO MATTER WHO WE VOTED FOR AND EVEN IF WE DIDN’T VOTE. And that’s true of every single election and in every single action we take, every single day.

    So…what do we DO with that?

  154. johnjaylward, actually, i believe you are correct in that someone may look at other topics which to them outweigh Trumps racism. Thats a legitimate decision.

    AS LONG AS the people voting for a racist because of (other topic) ACKNOWLEDGE that they are voting for a racist, and then makr their case for being outweighed by (other topic).

    Every trump voter I have interacted witb refuses to do that. Every one. And THAT is being irresponsible for the damage your vote may cause.

    Its like voting to go to war. You have to acknowledge that your troops are not perfect, people will do bad things, sometimes people will be put into situations that will crack them and they will commit war crimes. To be morally responsible for that, you MUST weigh the damage your side may cauze and weigh it against the damage the other side will cause.

    If you think you will go in, 6 months be out, with not a single case of friendly fire, not a single fatal accident with equipemnt failing in the sand, not a single civilian life lost as collatersll damage, and you’ll be welcomed as heroes, then you’re being childishly irresponsible.

    If you go to war responsibly, you must acknowledge that your own people will end up killing innocents. And then you have to compare the damage you will do, and make sure it isnt as bad as the enemy.

    You wanna vote for trump because of (insert random topic here), fine, but you also have to be responsible for all the other damage that comes from Trump.

    Which means, if you ARE being responsible for your vote for trump, even if you voted for him because of (other topic), then you would openly admit you voted for racism. And you wouod read this post like “yep, I did”.

    If you vote for invading Agrabah and want to be responsible for it, you would openly admit that some of your people are going to kill civikians, and then make the case that those civilians are outweighed by the terrible damage the enemy is inflicting.

    Instead, people are irresponsible for the damage they cause and downplay it or simply insist that damage doesnt exist.

    If you voted for trump, you voted for racism. And you have to acknowledge that to be responsible for your vote. And then maybe make a case for (other issue). But you cant deny racism and be responsible for the effects of your vote.

    So, yeah, maybe some other topic is involved for voters, but they would still have to admit they voted for racism, and this article is spot on.

  155. As I tweeted earlier today: #YesAllTrumpSupporters agreed to bigotry in the forms of Racism, Sexism, Homophobia, and pussy grabbing in all of it’s hateful forms. #YesAllTrumpSupporters are (n my understand of the oath I took) “Domestic Enemies”. It’s time for the rest of ya to decide. Is bigotry in all its hateful forms domestic terrorism or just politics? There is one part fighting it, one agin’ it.

  156. @John Scalzi

    “..racism being part of a package deal does not excuse voting for racism. So we’re agreeing, but…. ?”

    But it does excuse it under the moral utility of fighting for a greater good. Racism is considered the unfortunate, but acceptable, trade-off. I agree with you that it would do Republicans some good to admit that they voted for racism. As Arturo Magidin said above “Be aware: what you voted for included racism.” But many already know that and would make the same choice again given the trade-offs. For them, that is the hard reality of a perceived life or death choice. They can feel morally justified in their choice despite feeling bad about doing so. I struggle to understand why you don’t believe that excuses their vote.

  157. Michelle V. – on the people voted for the candidate they thought was better.

    This is the bit that astounds me. The racism in the election is horrifying, but there are two other forms of power out there: gender and economic. This strikes me as a perfect storm of all three. If voters genuinely thought Trump was a better candidate, the way they’re thinking about Clinton boggles the mind. I realise there have been 30 years of well poisoning going on; there are other issues; BENGAZI! WAR CRIMINAL! LYBIA (anyone remember Rwanda, and her role then? FFS) etc etc. But against everything?

    Oh, people voted for racism. Vile, awful, racism. And they did so because the same structural issues that create a system that benefits white people *particularly* benefits white men. And when the economy screws people over, punching down has a lot of appeal. Yes, people voted for racism. But they also voted for vile misogyny.

    But we’ve still got to do something to improve their economic/existential plight.

    sorry if this is a bit off track. Short: yes. Racist. See also : other forms of power.

  158. @Arturo Magidin fair enough, but still not accurate.

    I can vote for a president who is pro-choice and yet still campaign and advocate for pro-life policies. The same argument can be made for Trump voters. What privateiron has said makes this point as well. They can vote for Trump, and still advocate for equality and equity policies for minorities. Just because you vote for someone does not mean you agree with everything they put on their ticket.

    As with any candidate, and any issue, I can vote them because I agree with 90% of what they say, and campaign my personal butt off to prevent them from instituting that last 10% I disagree with.

    This is why, even though I didn’t vote for Trump, I’m arguing that labeling them all as “supporting racism” is just plain misleading and only serves to infuriate people who are just as enraged about Trump as anyone non trump voters. They just thought he was better than the other choices.

    Should these people who disliked all 4 major candidates just not have voted? No, you vote for the person who is closest to the match of your vision of America as possible.

    Labeling someone you don’t know as “supporting racism” just because you disagree with how they cast their vote is wrong.

  159. @Derek Ramsey: It doesn’t “excuse it” in the sense of removing the responsibility for it. I understood it to be the whole point of the piece. Nobody gets to say “I am not responsible for the racism, because I voted for him for these other reasons.” Nobody gets to say “I am not responsible for the racism, because I was forced to accept it as part of the package.” You don’t get to be excused from the racism merely because, given the option to pick and choose, you would not have taken it.

  160. OK, John, you can Mallet this if it’s too tangential, no problem. But I’m curious as to why racism looms so much larger and more obvious in the unsavory aspects of Trump support than misogyny? Is it, perhaps, because misogyny is so inherent in our culture that the denial of its existence is even more powerful than the denial around racism?

    A paraphrase of one post-election tweet that kicked me in the stomach: “Election results prove that nothing a man can do, and anything a woman does, will be too offensive for more than half of us.”

    Please note that my own white privilege and my own inherent racism, which I do my best to overcome and act counter to, are very much on my mind and I am NOT denying the role of racism in the election results.

    I’m just deeply puzzled and disturbed by how the only attention that’s apparently being paid to the role of misogyny is to deny it was any kind of major factor… because “white women” voted for Trump.

    Misogyny is so profoundly integrated into the structure of our patriarchal culture that no woman can escape internalizing it, and denial is the default. We have to pay attention to all the misogynist assumptions we’ve absorbed from the culture, and they come in layers. Even those of us who strive to be self-aware feminists are continually finding new layers within our selves.

    Among the many tragedies of this election result is the lost opportunity to shine some of the same level of light on misogyny that many of us have been working to shine on racism for decades. The longer it’s left in the darkness of denial, the more destructive it becomes.

  161. Derek Ramsey:

    “But it does excuse it under the moral utility of fighting for a greater good.”

    Derek, I think you’re making a different argument than I am. We both appear to agree that Trump voters signed up for racism. However, that’s the whole of my argument. It appears you are trying to argue that, essentially, signing on for racism is okay because of the whole package deal (or more correctly, that Trump voters would argue that). If that’s correct, I don’t agree (particularly with the package under discussion), but it’s neither here nor there to my argument.

    (to your defense I should have used a different word that “excuse” there.)

  162. I think there is some chance that what Trmp said during the campaign was “get me elected” hot air. Unfortunately, much of his base took it as both gospel truth and an outline for future behavior. Direction, and prior forgiveness. The listing of egregious incidents already proves that.

  163. John, with all due respect I do understand your line of reasoning. But I wonder what you and others that want to label all Trump supporters as ” _____” are hoping to accomplish.

    I hope you will allow me to offer up a different analogy supporting my line of thinking.

    I have friends that attend church, and have great faith in God.
    I accept that they use religion as a well meaning, humanitarian, loving guidepost in their lives. I see no reason to dwell on the fact that many religions have a well known history of twisting their “morals” to support their agenda, often times participating in or allowing horrible acts to occur.

    What could I possibly hope to accomplish by accusing those friends of being complicit in and accepting of these horrors by default? I know that they will and do stand up against these issues.

    I think we can spend our time better by trying to come together as human beings and accept we need to play the hand we were dealt.

  164. I thought your “Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is” was a brilliant analogy. But this one just doesn’t click for me.

    I voted for Hillary. But here is a factory farming analogy to explain Trump supporters.

    I’m poor so I can’t afford free range organic meat, so I buy what is cheapest. I don’t “support” factory farming. But I am supporting it with my money so that I can eat meat. This election my choices were factory farmed meat or no meat. Of course people voted for factory farmed meat instead of becoming vegetarians.

    You would think Bernie would be the vegan option, but for the meat eaters Bernie may be a hippie but he’s still meat, while voting for Hillary clearly meant giving up eating meat. I just really wish Bernie had won the primary so the organic free range choice had been on the table instead of making people choose between factory farming and being vegan.

    Factory farming is terrible but it better than not putting meat on your table at all.

  165. @Erik, removing rights for unborn children in the name of increasing rights for women is a false equivalency. But this is off topic, so you should probably drop it.,

    This is cute. Only /I/ can play the abortion card. YOU should probably just drop it.

  166. Actually everyone should stop playing the abortion card here. As with all things involving abortion, it’s dragging away from the actual discussion at hand. Consider it officially tabled.

  167. To extend the analogy, I can understand why many Trump voters saw their choice as a rabbit ears aerial on one hand, or HBO with Cinemax on the other. If that’s the starting point, then the choice of HBO was obvious.
    But…. if you made that choice, that was still a vote for racism, whether you wanted it or not.
    My question is, if you aren’t a racist and don’t want it in your cable package, what can you do? What kind of actions can we take to influence the new President to focus on the good stuff and drop the racist stuff?

  168. But it does excuse it under the moral utility of fighting for a greater good. Racism is considered the unfortunate, but acceptable, trade-off. I agree with you that it would do Republicans some good to admit that they voted for racism. As Arturo Magidin said above “Be aware: what you voted for included racism.” But many already know that and would make the same choice again given the trade-offs. For them, that is the hard reality of a perceived life or death choice. They can feel morally justified in their choice despite feeling bad about doing so. I struggle to understand why you don’t believe that excuses their vote.

    That anyone could look at the behavior of the Trump crowds and the Trump supporters and come to this conclusion baffles me completely.

  169. I think we can spend our time better by trying to come together as human beings and accept we need to play the hand we were dealt.

    That might have worked before I endured 30+ years of vile name calling and being told I’m un-american and ought to get out of the country I was born in.

  170. Is this a general principle, then, or a special case that applies only to Trump and his racism? If you vote for Clinton does that mean that you’re voting for cronyism, corruption, and bombing people in the middle east? Are you voting for all of the unsavory things that every person you’ve voted for has done? It’s not an irrelevant question – is this a universally applicable principle? If not, why is it only applicable here, and not in other instances? Because that’s where a lot of the backlash against Liberal politics has come from in the last few years – the perception that they’re self righteous hypocrites who deign to tell everyone *else* how *they* should act, without holding themselves to the same standards. And if it is universally applicable, and you voted for Clinton, then what gives you (the editorial “you”) the moral authority to condemn others for their racism? I find it very telling that one of the first thread instructions specifically bars people from discussing any *other* candidates equally reprehensible flaws – and that’s *not* irrelevant. It’s exactly that sort of thing that has fueled much of the backlash the swept Trump into office. It’s exactly that sort of thing that is why you’re all standing here now, shocked that he’s been elected even though you’ve talked and talked about endemic pervasive racism for years. And before anyone lobs that bomb, no, I didn’t vote for Trump.

  171. I had an odd thing happen yesterday. No – it was an uncomfortable thing. I was trying, as I so often do, to see the upside of this… thing. I am white, female, solidly middle class in income. I work for a tech company so I am in a good segment of the economy. In any case, a group of us were standing in our lobby area, discussing the… thing. Our receptionist sighed and said she was just waiting for someone to call her the “n-word” (her words, thus the quotes.) Apparently this had happened to several of her friends yesterday. Sigh. Then one of my other co-workers said that he was having a hard time as well – one of his children had been taunted by another, older child that the boy would be ‘sent back to where he belonged.’ What made this uncomfortable for me was that in the midst of all my depression over this… thing I had failed to realize that for me it really was the easiest difficulty setting. Our receptionist is a woman of color, my co-worker is married to a hispanic woman.

    I have been saying for weeks, months – that this man is a racist and that he has been tapping into a deep fear and even hatred of those who aren’t white (or, let’s face it, male). In less than a day, those folks now believe it is okay to let your child taunt other children about their ancestry, that it is okay to call a woman (or man) of color horrible, racist names.

    So – if you truly believe that this man that was just elected has not fomented the racists, the bigots, the homophobes and misogynists into feeling like they have free reign to act on that – think again. Yes, you bought the whole cable package kids.

    And Johnjaylward? You can pull out all the reasons and excuses you want to try and defend this, but a vote for this man was a vote for just exactly this sort of abhorrent behavior, whether you meant it or not, whether you believe it or not, whether you felt it was the lesser evil. None of that mitigates it. It may explain why it was done, but it does not excuse the action. In less than 24 hours it has started. And now the rest of us have to first try to limit the damage this has wrought and spend the next decade or so trying to remediate the progress that was lost. So thanks.

  172. You know, stuff like this – well written though it may be – will be entirely wasted until we start addressing the assumptions that underlie it. That’s done by engaging people’s empathy through calm and compassion.

    We’ve had several decade’s worth of progressive ink spilled on Hillary’s “basket of deplorables” and how they are so very bad without any measurable change in behavior on their part (as the election so emphatically demonstrates). And as Scalzi himself admits, these are often what he’d call “good people.” So how do you square that circle? Why do otherwise good and decent people do bad things?

    Because they don’t understand that they are bad. And you will not help them understand by yelling at them and calling them names (even if those names are applicable). You have to slowly, painstakingly, unwind the knots they’ve tied themselves in without exerting the kind emotionally satisfying force our frustration would beg us to apply.

    If you just grab a convenient string and yank, the whole thing becomes one giant snarl; at that point you might as well give up because that knot won’t budge. I know it feels good to yank. You know there’s a knot there and you don’t like it. But it doesn’t help.

    Scalzi always caveats that he’s not “nice.” Well maybe all that really means is that he wants to say what he finds emotionally satisfying to say without regard for the consequences.

  173. I’ve been a frequent reader and never commented, but this election may be a historical turning point not just for the USA but also for the world. I’m still trying to understand how perfectly sane, law abiding, citizens may have elected that guy. Also note that I’m an European citizen and that means that a) While I’ve met and worked with lots of Americans I have no direct experience in the country and b) As a consequence of the above, I admit my own cultural bias.

    That said, and after reading most of this thread there are some ‘thinky bits’ that come to mind:

    1) Apparently, poverty, economic stagnation or other defficiencies become a problem ONLY if and when they affect certain group of people but not other fellow citizens.

    2) If certain regions have been left behind by that ‘Washington elite’, what have the local authorities done to improve the lives of these people? Are there no social policies, education opportunities or other help available?

    3) How come that a candidate that systematically decries the founding principles of the country get elected to lead it? (specifically that ‘all men are created equal and have certain rights’ part)

    4) I still fail to understand that most citizens seem to be ok with the highest military expenditure in the world by a very wide margin but think that a very basic public healthcare program is a waste of resources?

    As I said, I’m just a foreigner trying to understand this. If anyone think I’m being disrespectful or just plain annoying please accept m apologies.

  174. Brilliant. I’ve been so frustrated with those who are critical of those of us that are sad today. It’s like running into a burning building to save people, being sad that you couldn’t save everyone, and then being scolded for being sad by those that started the fire in the first place… and sure, not everyone meant to start the fire, but they purchased the gasoline and lit the match. I just don’t understand…

  175. Super Duper Ego:

    By the same token, you don’t not use a word that fits. I think it’s entirely possible to tell people calmly and rationally that what they’re doing is racist, for example. I’ve done it before, and had it work before. Perhaps I’m better at it than you are. That’s not about being “nice,” true. “Nice” would be just ignoring it. I’m fine with not being nice.

  176. Those Trump supporters who really think Trump is going to be able to magic back all those jobs lost over the past few decades should read this article: https://techcrunch.com/2016/04/25/the-driverless-truck-is-coming-and-its-going-to-automate-millions-of-jobs/ which discusses the impact of driverless trucks on people who make their living as truck drivers. It’s an important example of the real reason so many manufacturing jobs are gone forever: automation. What are Trump’s people going to do when truck drivers get laid off by the tens of thousands in a matter of months? Find another ethnic group to deport?

  177. LogicSucks: The policies promoted by Clinton would REDUCE the number of actual abortions over those promoted by Trump/Pence, so anyone who believed in harm reduction would have a pretty clear choice there. Several pro-life folks wrote articles to that effect.

    exoboit: Make America Great Again is code for Let’s Go Back to the Fifties, When Nobody Questioned the Superiority of White People. — er, Nobody, except Everyone Else? (plus of course some white people…)

    Marco M: masochism is something people engage in consensually in the bedroom. It is not a disorder and it is not related to their political behavior.

  178. @Kathryne, I’m sorry to hear that assholes have easy access to your friends and co-workers. But please note, we already have laws to protect you and your friends against harassment. Unless people think Donald Trump will be pushing to repeal these laws, you can be sure to file criminal complaints against them. For the children in school, I’m sure there are also school policies to prevent and correct these deplorable actions. I would bet that a quick call the the principal or other leader in the school would help prevent this in the future.

    Sadly in some cases, assholes just don’t realize they are until you tell them. Sometimes not even after.

    I am not defending racism. I’m defending people’s right to vote without being stereotyped into a bucket of other deployable humans who also happened to vote for the same person but likely for different reasons.

  179. @johnjaylward: You say “The same argument can be made for Trump voters. What privateiron has said makes this point as well. They can vote for Trump, and still advocate for equality and equity policies for minorities. Just because you vote for someone does not mean you agree with everything they put on their ticket.”

    Yes; absolutely. I was thinking of saying something like this and somehow failed to.

    But this is a separate point. Again: it’s not “Because you voted for Trump you are a racist.” In the Cinemax analogy, you are allowed to go and advocate for a change in Cinemax programming. But this does not change the fact that your subscription puts money in Cinemax’s pockets. The person voting for Trump who is not racist and who feels passionately for equality will, I hope, do all of those things you are saying and more. But none of that will change the fact: what they voted for includes racism. It’s not about blame, it’s about responsibility. You seem to have taken a lot of thought and responsibility for the votes you cast that include policy you disagree with, even vehemently. That’s what I want here. And I think that’s @John Scalzi’s point as well. Not that the individuals are bad; not that the individuals will, with their individual actions and day to day life, do horrible racist things; but that they don’t get to wall-off that part of Trump on the grounds that they oppose those parts in all other aspects of their life except their vote. They own a bit of that part; they can karma it off in other ways, but they still own it.

  180. Privateiron—Please define your terms.

    Voter suppression based on race= requiring a government issued ID that would be shown in order to vote?

    Gerrymandering= a practice both parties employ to draw favorable districts for their candidates?

    Anti Immigrant or anti illegal immigrant??

    Just curious…

  181. I’m sure I’m seconding what many have already said in the comments I haven’t read yet. Racism is not the only problem. It would be bad enough if it were, but it’s not. The cheeto-topped dogpile who is now Head Bully thinks women are pieces of ass. That’s half the human race. That’s not nothing. He’s made fun of disabled people. What kind of drain-plugging scum would even think like that? Forget saying it. Forget saying it on TV with millions of viewers.

    Let’s have a bit of intersectionality and inclusiveness. Remember *all* of us who he’s barfing his orange bile over.

    It shouldn’t be too difficult. It’ll hit everybody soon enough.

  182. This pretty much nails it. Huge amounts of Americans are fine with me getting harmed, so long as it got them jobs and kept their gun rights and lowered their taxes.
    They are fine with throwing queers like me, people of color, uterus owners of reproductive age, and anyone who’s not a Christian under the bus.

    They may not HATE me, but they won’t stop anyone from harming me…And that last is all some people need to go ahead.

    It feels like a slap in the face. It feels like my own home country despises me.

  183. I suck at short. Try again:

    If you voted for Trump because the benefit of his positon on topic AAA outweighs the damage caused by his bigotry, then you need to acknowledge you voted for bigotry because you need to be responsible everytime bigotry happens.

    Refusing to acknowledge you voted for a bigot and that bigotry will happen as a result of your vote, and denying any incident of bigotry is the outcome of your vote is childish. Childish like a kid who just shattered the television and then says they didnt do it.

    This is the inherent problem of republicans: childish irresponsibility to the point that they will have a cookie in their mouth and deny they ever ate a cookie. No regard for the truth and zero shame. And if you push them on it and call them on their lie, they resort to angry tantrums.

    You voted for bigotry.
    Nuh UH, you are.

    Just ask them about WMDs in iraq, for fucks sake. Lie, deny, tantrum, accuse others of other things. Fuck the truth. Fuck being responsible. Zero shame for any of it. None.

    And hence, why my black dog has come to visit me and doesnt show any sign of leaving.

  184. Well, it is still only a theory of Cinemax. I personally subscribe to the Superstring Theory of Cinemax, wherein each cable channel is an infinite loop that can take us into other dimensions, yada, yada, yada, snore.

    Now, get out the mallet, and let me have it. Not for the stupid joke, but for what is about to follow.

    Using this analogy then: Some folks in Congress decide it would be great for the government to make sure its citizens receive adequate healthcare. So, they draft a bill doing this great thing. However, other Congressfolk decide it shouldn’t be health care, but health insurance, and skew it quite a bit toward corporate insurance lobbies. Meanwhile, another distinguished gentleman from Wisconsin wants to build a bridge, and that gets tacked on, along with other pork projects.

    By your reasoning, everyone who wants the citizenry to have healthcare must also want insurance companies involved and that bridge in Wisconsin, etc, or they must vote against the entire bill. Congress does this all the time. Those who want something to get started need to put up with junk they cannot support. And, you had better believe that when congressional seats are up in the air, how each one voted for or against and is misleadingly not telling the whole truth, will be brought up.

    Actually, I just made the argument for Superstring Theory of Politics, with infinite loops and other dimensions are a cold hard reality. Wonder if any can be fashioned to resemble nooses?

    Bang away! (Ouch, not there! Ouch! Oof! Okay already! Oompf! UNCLE!)

  185. I’m not sold on Cinemax vs HBO being a good metaphor, as they’re not philosophically different, they don’t appeal to significantly different markets.
    It really applies better to basic cable: I want a package of channels that includes comedy, food, travel, drama, science fiction… but it includes ESPN and Fox Sports which promote violent sports such as football and boxing; it includes QVC and a dozen other telemarketing channels which prey on the insomniac consumer; it includes a dozen religious channels that preach things in opposition to my lifestyle (only a couple things — more of my friends’ lifestyle).

  186. Racism isn’t just done by people in sheets and hoods. Racism isn’t just an insult to hurl at political opponents. Racism isn’t just saying a slur. ***It’s not an abstract idea.**** Real people were hurt, emotional, mentally and sometimes physically by Trump’s statements. Real people will continue to be hurt by policies should he enact them.

    Good people can harbor racist ideas, and benefit from a racist status quo.
    Racism isn’t just the Grand Wizard and goosestepping. It’s also the HR person who throws LaKeisha’s resume into the circular file without a consideration.

  187. @johnjaylward:

    You know you keep saying “I’m not defending racism” but as soon as people start laking about their own experience of racism you’re auditing word choices and ‘spalining how you would have dealt with the situation.

    On one level, it’s great that you keep making our host’s point for him. But mostly, it would be really awesome if you’d take a really deep breath, genuinely listen and stop making this thread all about your wounded feelings. Because, I know this isn’t going to strike you as “nice”, but this is exactly what racist white people do on the internet all the time.

    .

  188. Here’s what you voted for if you voted for Trump: https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656

    And you KNEW you were voting for that.

    John, I like your analogy, and would add that a lot of people will claim they got the package for HBO, while what they really wanted was to wank to Cinemax while their wives were asleep. Remember the guys who claimed they bought Playboy for the articles? Like them. The trouble is, unless you track all their viewing habits you can’t tell someone who bought it for HBO from someone who bought it for Cinemax.

    Now being racist (and sexist and homophobic and transphobic) isn’t harmless, like watching Cinemax. It’s dangerous, especially if you’re a person of color (or a woman, or queer, or trans). Since I can’t tell, the only safe approach (for me and for the people I care about) is to treat them like they all bought the package for the white supremacy (and everything else bad).

    It’s not like I’m Rhadamanthos, consigning them to the pits of Tartarus. I’m just not socializing with them, reading their work, patronizing their businesses, or pretending they have anything useful or interesting to say to me ever again. They had a perfect right to vote for Trump, and I have a perfect right to respond in any legal fashion to their having done so.

    Toward the end of Captain America: The Winter Soldier, a character tells Cap that the WS is “not the kind you save; he’s the kind you stop.” Cap first stops him, then saves him. (That last is because he’s a superhero; it’s not expected of ordinary mortals like me.)

    Right now, our country is being taken over by white supremacists and people who will support white supremacists if they get what else they want; why should we take the time or energy to distinguish? We’re at the “STOP THEM” stage right now. We have to stop them by whatever means is required. AFTER we defeat them, then we can show compassion, not that they showed US any.

  189. I’m sorry; we are all disgruntled around here, and this is an area that went profoundly Hillary, with a WTF chaser afterwards. All we can do is try to shore each other up when the inevitable Trump fallout occurs.

  190. [Deleted because as noted above, we’re not doing the “Clinton is just as bad” thing here. Stay on topic, please — JS]

  191. Mary Frances: “Why aren’t many Trump supporters willing to acknowledge that part of what they voted for?”

    The answer is simple. Trump supporters simply do not view the world through racism-tinged glasses. That is, they do not view racism as a leading source of social evil. If they did, they would be . . . progressives.

  192. @John Scalzi

    In a tweet you said “..supporters of a racist presidential candidate upset and offended to be called out on their racism”. This is not ‘merely’ abetting racism, but being racist. Yes my argument is a different argument than your post, but your tweet doesn’t seem to match the argument you are making in the post either. Maybe that’s intentional? If so, I object more to your tweet than to your post. It is decidedly unhelpful and unnecessarily inflammatory.

  193. @cranapia I was asked for my opinion and I gave it. Obviously without being in the situation myself I can’t comment on what the correct action would have been. Sometimes the best action is be be quiet, and sometimes it’s to confront. Sometimes there is no good choice.

    @Xopher Halftongue I generally am not on twitter, and it’s very disturbing to see people being so blatantly stupid and hateful.

    As I’ve said multiple times I’m not defending those people. They are the ones who obviously rode the Trump ticket for the wrong reasons. I heard one person tell me “at least it’s obvious to know who to ignore now”. This does not make the world a better place. It is sad and disturbing that people could do this. However, it also doesn’t mean that everyone who voted for trump wanted to give those racist jerks any more power than they already have.

    As far as I can see, you are right, I have helped prove Scalzi’s point. He was saying that trump voters need to acknowledge that this is what was included on the ticket. My point is, that getting mad at all Trump voters is no better than those idiots on twitter, who I hope get kicked out of school. My point is that some have already admitted it, and are hoping, and trying to minimize this damage.

  194. No, because Trump is the one who says ‘I’d bomb the shit out them.’

    Look, you voted for a sexual assault enthusiast. Own it.

  195. I feel I should have said more in the post above. No, I did not vote for Trump, nor for Clinton. And yes, I could see myself voting for either of them, misogyny, narcissism, racism, corruption, disdain for the common man/rape victim/war casualty be damned… if I thought that they would be good for the US, which I have made my home.

    I just do not trust either of them to do anything but line her/his pockets, persecute his/her enemies, promote her/his cronies, and preside over the decline of most of our fortunes. And while I think that the one who got elected is worse for the country as a whole, I am still glad that I did not vote. Not that it would have made a difference anyway, Clinton carried California handily.

  196. I made this same point on a comment section on a Cracked article, titled “White People, Stop Telling Me Everything Will Be Fine.” Trump campaigned on an explicitly racist platform. It was not a secret. He was endorsed by Stormfront and the Klan, FFS. Maybe you, you little snowflake, were only voting against Hillary or just wanted to shake up the DC status quo. But you have to acknowledge the racism you endorsed.

  197. A slightly different take, sparked by someone asking: “What makes someone a racist? Being a racist.”

    My take, as a behavioral psychologist, is: Nothing makes a person “a racist”. (Bear with me: this isn’t gonna be that kind of contrarian comment.)

    Instead, we have a ton of racist ideas floating around in our culture, and there are opportunities to allow those ideas to be a controlling factor in your behavior.

    (More generally, we have a ton of unhelpful ideas, such as the idea that there are kinds of people, rather than that there are just people and then there are the things they do.)

    No one gets away clean: as a very wise psychologist, Steve Hayes, has said, “You can’t swim in a sewer without getting infected.” We cannot swim in a sea of racist images and ideas without adding some of them to our own learning history. And, as Hayes and other hardcore behaviorists have noted, there is no way to erase your own learning history. No delete button on the racist thoughts. They are here to stay. The phone call is coming from inside the house.

    So you have racist ideas in your head, and they will show up at certain times, and then you have a chance, if you notice it, if you take it, not to allow those racist ideas to decide for you what you are going to do. You can instead leave the noise to one side and then act from your own best principles.

    As in any decision, people who voted for Trump allowed some things to be more important than others in their decision-making. Some of them will have been operating on racist ideas, to be sure. Others will have prioritized something else over actively combating racism. Either way, the net effect is that racist ideas get aired and racist behavior gets tacit (or open) approval.

    But in fighting against racism, working from the idea that a racist is a kind of person, or that racism is some kind of mechanism or disease or organ inside a person that just spits out racist behavior, is not going to help convince people to think about what they are doing and choose better behavior.

    A side note is that presenting stories about human suffering due to racist behavior may backfire in some cases. (I know this and I am doing it this week on Facebook anyway, what the hell.) There is some science around the idea that presenting suffering will activate defenses against it, and so you should expect to see some people invoking just-world theory or openly racist theory in order to avoid having to empathize with another human’s suffering. Compassion is hard work, and most of us will often avoid doing it if we can.

  198. Allikat: in the context of my post, my sharply defining my terms would be narrowing the field of “good” things Trump voters could do. Not sure why you would want that or if it would reflect the spirit of the comment. I could knock a few things off the top of my head:

    Plenty of voter suppression: ordering a study of voting patterns by race and then passing legislation that targets African American preferred voting options; reducing the number of polling stations; creating onerous documentary requirements. letting private citizens remove voters from the lists without notice based on direct mailing schemes. I am sure there are plenty of people here who could give you chapter and verse better than I could.

    Gerrymandering where a district is reduced to the line of a highway in order to connect two entirely separate areas. Using computers to do gerrymandering house by house. Court challenges to bipartisan districting commissions set up by the state to bring rationality back to the process.

    Immigrant policies that dance with the idea of stripping citizenship from children born in this country or from naturalized citizens based on faith or ethnicity. Immigrant policies that look the other way on migrant workers necessary for various industries as long as those people are required, but then treating them like unwanted criminals when it suits. All of these economic migrants who are both necessary/wanted workers and unwanted criminals suffer injury and insult at the hands of both the government and their employers. Immigration in-flow policies that favor certain origin points, races, etc. Lack of real penalties for the people who make money off of immigrants. Harsh and often irrational procedures related to refugee status. This is not exhaustive.

    Let me make the point that a lot of harsh Supreme Court precedent from 19th century Chinese migrant cases on due process and immigration has never formally been overturned. So it is possible that a Trump appointed Court might easily be able to uphold laws that might shock a lot of the readers here. (Congress has almost unfettered power over immigration and naturalization.)

    Since Trump loves Nigel Farage so much, there are some worrying British templates he and Congress might consider, such as making it possible to strip citizenship from/deport anyone who can claim citizenship in another country, even is said person does not have or want that other citizenship. Think Right of Return for Jews to Israel and other similar programs in other countries. I am guessing even a panel of 9 Scalia’s would find that kind of thing unconstitutional here, but I would not bet on Trump/Giuliani being smart enough to know not to give it a whirl.

  199. My neighbor called me a racist, homophobic, anti Muslim and about three other things for voting for Trump. In the same paragraph she said she could not be friends with people who voted for a man who labeled all Mexicans as rapist and all blacks as lazy. Can you help explain to me when labeling is acceptable and when it’s not? As you can see from the above, I’m a bit confused by my liberal neighbor. She doesn’t seem to be living what she’s preaching. Please help me understand.

  200. It’s necessary to this discussion that we compare racism to racism—

    You might recall back in July, the platform committee hearings before the Democratic Convention. Despite a passionate, profound and perfectly reasonable plea from Cornel West, his fellow committee members voted against including the opposition to humanitarian crisis that is Israel’s occupation of Palestine, even refusing to allow the word “occupation” to be stated as a matter of fact into their platform.

    To present the Cinemax Theory without offering any regard to this Democratic position, especially in light of the fact that the US will provide $38 billion dollars in military aid to continue the racist policies which drive the Israeli occupation, takes a certain degree of white privilege as well, don’t you think? Truth be told, Cinemax Theory is just as applicable toward the issue of US support for Israel as it is to the voters who elected Donald Trump.

    Understand the Republican platform regarding the occupation is nearly identical to the Democrats. Presenting the Cinemax Theory about racism by limiting discussion to domestic policy voids the theory, doesn’t it? When applied equally across the board, the theory proves that giving a quiet pass to racism abroad is to give a pass to racism in our own back yards.

    So the choice is ultimately about how people wish to carry their racism. Open carry or concealed? Many would agree that the concealed carry racists are the enablers here, the ones we really need to watch out for.

  201. Indeed. As I’ve been noting on twitter: the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

    AT MINIMUM Trump voters walked past the blatant racism of the campaign. They accepted it. If you don’t like that being pointed out, tough.

  202. Elaborating innovative new theories of racism, the better to mock 60 million Trump voters as beneath contempt (and active supporters of every racial or sexist offense), may elevate the sense of moral superiority that’s so apparent on this site. Consider instead investing in better understanding why Trump voters backed him — just as I’m trying to understand you by reading this site.

    A good place to start is http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr.

    And here’s another good capsule from Maureen Sullivan in the NYT:
    People I know were… tired of being told they were racist and bigoted as they went about the business of mowing their lawns, writing college tuition checks and working their jobs as cops, secretaries and teachers’ aides. They kept being told they needed to look inward, examine their sins and judge themselves guilty. They had not forgotten when Barack Obama was running for president in 2008 and his wife, Michelle, said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I’m really proud of my country…” I supported [Trump] because he promised to curb regulations, cut taxes and appoint constitutionalists to the Supreme Court. I supported him because Mrs. Clinton doesn’t have what it takes to turn around a stagnant economy or stand up to the special interests that block innovation.

    Why don’t we try more listening than shouting… more humility, and less fury? Talking to only like-minded people while demonizing the other 50%, will continue producing backlashes until we learn to listen to each other.

  203. Pedro: Trump supporters simply do not view the world through racism-tinged glasses. That is, they do not view racism as a leading source of social evil.

    So their response to “you voted for racism” is to say, “well, yes, but racism is unimportant” . . . ??? Really? (Not saying you’re wrong; just expressing amazement at even the possibility.) That’s–well, I suppose it’s slightly less delusional than claiming “Trump can’t possibly support racism because I would never vote for someone who supports racism!” or “I didn’t vote for someone who supports racism because racism doesn’t exist!” but only just slightly. How would they account for all the support from obvious racists that Trump demonstrably got, if they think that racism is unimportant or doesn’t really exist? Do they believe that those people don’t count? Just–wow.

    Marco M: Sebastian: yes a vote for Clinton is a vote for war and tense political relationship. But… Americans don’t really care about the rest of the world

    I care. I worried about Clinton’s warmongering tendencies, and I intended to watch carefully, speak up against them, and speak to my various representatives against them. But yes, they were part of the package I voted for, I take responsibility, and I would have worked to counteract such tendencies on my candidate’s part. If the Trump supporters claiming “I voted for him despite the fact that he’s racist/sexist/homophobic” would speak up and tell me what they plan to do to work against Trump inputting specifically racist, etc., policies and practices, I might be a bit calmer about the future by now. A little, at least.

  204. How about if it’s time to choose a cable package for the entire country, and you think both packages offered have both good and bad, so you don’t bother to vote? And then you get mad when your girlfriend is upset that you didn’t choose the non-rape cable package? :(

  205. Oops–John, was my response to Marco M at 5:07 part of a deleted conversation? If so, my apologies–I hadn’t refreshed the page.

  206. Mike:

    “Why don’t we try more listening than shouting… more humility, and less fury?”

    Great idea. You first.

    And while you’re at it, try reading better as well, since your strawman argument is showing.

  207. I think your analogy is flawed in this sense: if you look at the total packages presented by the two candidates, you’d be something awful if you voted for either. You, John, have written fairly extensively about having grown up poor. I think there is a reasonably coherent argument that economic policies promulgated by the governmental elites of both parties have gone far to creating the rust belt — or in human terms, poor people — where Mrs. Clinton’s hopes hit the iceberg. There may also have been coherent arguments for letting that happen, but can you blame the once-middle class working folk for voting AGAINST the person (Clinton) that they see as the embodiment of those policies that have driven many of them into or close to poverty? I don’t think the vote was so much a vote for Trump or his policies as a scream of pain, like the thrashing about of a wounded animal, a rejection of the total political class that has done so much to hurt them.

  208. Susan Stich :
    My neighbor called me a racist, homophobic, anti Muslim and about three other things for voting for Trump. In the same paragraph she said she could not be friends with people who voted for a man who labeled all Mexicans as rapist and all blacks as lazy. Can you help explain to me when labeling is acceptable and when it’s not? As you can see from the above, I’m a bit confused by my liberal neighbor. She doesn’t seem to be living what she’s preaching. Please help me understand.

    Her objection to you is because of your *actions*. Your action, voting for Trump, was racist, homophobic and anti-Muslim.

    Trump labelling Mexican’s rapists and blacks lazy on the basis of an assumption predicated on their *race*.

    See the difference? Action vs innate attribute.

  209. Susan Stich: There is a difference between hating people for who they are and criticizing people for what they do.

    You voted for Trump. That’s an action you chose to take, and that action is harming people. When you do things that harm people, it is perfectly understandable that people will be angry about it.

    Trump, too, chose to take actions that harm people when he chose to say hateful things about immigrants, Mexicans, Muslims, women, disabled people…the list goes on. He wasn’t criticizing harmful behavior–he was saying hateful things about who they are.

    “Tolerance” does not mean treating everyone’s behavior as acceptable and welcome. It means recognizing that other people–even people who don’t look like us or worship like us or speak our language–are human beings with worth and dignity.

    If someone took a baseball bat to your windshield and you called them an asshole for it, you wouldn’t be being intolerant–you’d be criticizing behavior that harmed you. But if instead of calling them an asshole, you started telling people that everyone who looks like the person who broke your windshield is a violent vandal that should be deported? Well, that would be bigotry, and it would be perfectly reasonable for people (especially people who look like the person who broke your windshield) to criticize you for engaging in it.

  210. Susan Stich: It’s always interesting to me that people don’t always understand the difference between group labeling and being labeled based on their own behavior.

    ‘All blacks are lazy’ is not a reasonable conclusion from the fact of African-American ancestry. ‘American blacks are more likely to have salt-sensitive hypertension’ is. ‘French Canadians in early 19th-century Maine were more likely to have an exaggerated startle reflex’ is supported by some evidence, but not hardcore science.

    Your neighbor’s conclusion that you are a racist, a homophobe, and an Islamophobe based on your Trump vote doesn’t have the quality of the salt-sensitive hypertension conclusion, since she hasn’t actually done the double-blind tests to confirm.

    But given the fact that Trump could not have been elected without VAST support from racists, homophobes, and Islamophobes, and that in fact the MAJORITY of his voters are those things, I can’t say that her conclusion strikes me as unreasonable. Speculative, perhaps, but not outright nonsense of the kind Trump spouted to his ignorant, evil supporters.

    I hope that helps clarify things.

  211. ummm.. as I may have noted on your Twitter feed… and well a personal page or two of mine…

    YOU FUCKIN’ IDIOTS voted for the Don. I don’t care for your excuse. #YesAllTrumpSupporters are at their very core racists, homophobes, and misogynists.. or have no trouble supporting one. Cost me one cousin today even though I’ll literally give her a kidney if she needs one.

    I’m sorry, if you are a Trump fan, a Bern or bust person, a didn’t have time to vote person, Wahhhh… HRC… I sincerely hope you will be the first to regret handing your vote to the Anus-mouthed Leathery Tangerine… All hail Trae Crowder for living in my slightly older southern mind.

  212. What I’ve posted and told conservative folks/Trump supporters yesterday and today is this (and I know I’m probably preaching to the choir here): While you *personally* may not be racist and not care if you’re neighbor’s gay, or whatever, the unfortunately reality is that Trump and the GOP leaders ARE bigoted, not only from what we’ve seen on the record, but it’s also encoded in the GOP party platform (If you are conservative and haven’t read it, you really should: https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL%5B1%5D-ben_1468872234.pdf). So when you are openly talking about being conservative or how great Trump is, those of us who are marginalized will be suspicious of you. To put it another way, Trump supporters around now the marginalized’s poisoned Skittles bowl. You *personally* may not want to kill us, but there’s a lot of you, and we don’t know which of you actually would.

    So, conservatives/Trump supporters, if you want us to believe you when you say you aren’t bigoted towards LGBTQA folks, Muslims, Mexicans, immigrants, Jews, transgender people, etc., then *prove it*: Stand up for our rights. Put your leader’s feet to the fire to ensure that ALL americans (yes, including Muslims, immigrants, and transgender people) will still have their basic human rights respected. Ensure that Trump doesn’t actually make Muslims register on lists. Make sure that your party does immigration reform instead of building a stupid wall. Make sure that your party will take seriously the rise in hate crimes that is happening. In other words: Make your party accountable for their bigoted rhetoric. If you don’t want to be considered racists, sexist, or homophobic, and you really care about your neighbors, then put your money where your mouth is. Show us that reality, otherwise, you will always be seen with suspicion by those of us who are in the crosshairs.

  213. Well.. you just mirrored and echoes my very thoughts..,
    Thanks for putting it in lament terms . And lay it out in
    Ways I couldn’t…

    It’s so sad 😭 that they made the choice to give him the power he needed to boost his ego and thinks his behaviors and his beliefs is accepted…
    as you pointed out..
    he put it all out there for everyone to see and understand exactly what he’s about..
    so no excuse for not knowing or for ignoring him as is…

  214. The problem is actually the normalization of racism, sexism, and intolerance that Trump accelerated. I say accelerated because in the last twenty years we all became too polite (complacent) to gently call out people before this came to pass. After Trump announced his candidacy, I started hearing from a lot of people “I’m not racist, but …” this was a warning bell that I actually thought about. When a friend, neighbor, acquaintance starts any conversation with “I’m not X, but … ” listen hard. And then gently steer the conversation onto the X. I’ve been doing that since the escalator ride, and it is uncomfortable. Too bad.

    Ask any Trump supporter, they will all start with I’m not racist, but … Most people can be reached, if there is no preaching. Try it. But most of all start being vigilant about not letting people say things that they should regret in any civil society. We need to rebuild from the beginning. We are all Americans, damn it, and we are better than what this election has shown.

  215. johnjaylward:” However, it also doesn’t mean that everyone who voted for trump wanted to give those racist jerks any more power than they already have”

    Goddammit, that is apologist BS right there.

    Reslonsible choice in a nutshell. What is the objective cost/damage of this choice. What is the objective benefit of that choice. Put them on a scale and choose the lesser of two evils.

    If the moment i point out to someone that they voted for a bigot, they interrupt with “but deep down, Im a nice guy”, thats attempting to clear the costs off the scale so we dont weigh it, and instead we replace it with their high opinion of themselves.

    And that is being an apologist, downplaying the damage of their actions so they dont havd to be responsible for them.

  216. I assume this means that Darke county subscribes to racism. I assume then it is fair to call the Republicans of Darke county subscribers to racism. Does that make them good people subscribers to racism?

    Is it a case of they deserve our goodwill only so long as we can be pretty sure that they lose, but now that they’ve won their subscription to racism is now front and center?

    Does this apply to your neighbor who wrote Trump in your yard? Are they subscribers to racism?

    I’m just trying to find the line where outrage is okay…

  217. You can blame so many other reasons that Trump won, including the FBI’s involvement, Clinton’s lack of charisma that people think defines a good leader, lack of voter turn out. But to turn a blind eye to the QUARTER of Americans who put their vote in a viciously discriminatory campaign, for their own benefit, questionable set of values, or from a lack of education – is just as bad as voting for him. 40% did not vote, plus the 25% who voted for Trump. What is the definition of the bystander effect again…?

  218. John Samuel: “the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.”

    It’s not that Trump supporters don’t like being called out, it’s that they don’t like being called out by people (i.e., progressives) they do not, and will not, respect as their moral or social betters.

    This dynamic is most obvious when one white group accuses another white group of being racist. In such cases, these accusations have less to do with countering racism (real or perceived) than with securing sociopolitical advantage.

    And yes, white people do discriminate against white people. That’s not racism per se, but it is bigotry.

  219. Dear Bryan,

    Ends and means, they are not the same thing!

    Reducing crime is a laudable goal. If you do so by singling out blacks (or any particular group) for targeting, based on a blanket stereotype, that’s racist. It is, in fact, the canonical definition of prejudice and bigotry. Judging or treating an entire group negatively based upon a perceived stereotype.

    The incidence of terrorists among Muslims is under one in 1000 (WELL under one in 1000, and no, you don’t get to bring up the “sympathizer” strawman—if you want to start filtering people for “wrong-think”, you are in 1984 territory). If you think that’s grounds for targeting them, I’m pretty sure, no, I am POSITIVE you are a member of some demographic group which has over a 0.1% incidence of criminals. So, let’s come for you. Preemptively. We can’t be too safe, you know…

    If you actually think this kind of targeting is okay, then, yes, that would make you a bigot. You haven’t said that you do, so I’m not accusing you of such. But if by some awful unlikely chance, you do, attempting to justify it by the end goal does not remove the stigma of what you are.

    pax \ Ctein
    [ Please excuse any word-salad. Dragon Dictate in training! ]
    ======================================
    — Ctein’s Online Gallery http://ctein.com
    — Digital Restorations http://photo-repair.com
    ======================================

  220. I’ve been seeing a lot of these “I’m not bigoted, I would never personally discriminate” comments from Trump voters.

    Here’s the thing: intent isn’t magic. Your actions have consequences, and what you meant by those actions is not the determining factor in what those consequences are.

    You can say you love your friends and neighbors of color, and your friends and neighbors who are Muslim, disabled, and/or immigrants. You can say you love your friends and neighbors who have to buy their own health insurance. You can say that you’d never discriminate against them or try to harm them. But at the end of the day, you didn’t love them enough to stand up for them when it counted. You didn’t prioritize them.

    And maybe you’re mad because you feel like no one ever prioritizes you, and that’s why you did it. But you have a choice there, too. You can choose to put yourself ahead of other people and make decisions that benefit yourself at their expense. You can refuse to give even the smallest bit of ground to people who are hurting and asking for a little more space. But if you do that, it’s perfectly reasonable for people to decide that you’re selfish.

    You don’t have to hate people to perpetuate racism. All you have to do is not care that you’re hurting them. And you clearly didn’t care enough, because if you did, you wouldn’t have voted for someone who said clear as day that he intends to harm them.

  221. @Greg, Yes, I do know people who placed the evil on the scale, and when weighed decided that Trump was better than Hillary. I’m not allowed to say how bad hillary is here today. Instead I’ll post this link on why some people think Trump may end up being less of a racist bigot than the Dem party wants you to believe:

    Is it propaganda to further Trump? Almost assuredly. But it’s what makes politics, politics. Convincing people that they are voting for the right person.

  222. Pedro:

    Leaving aside the dubiousness of your thesis, there is the actual fact that Trump and his folks have actively racist plans, so voting for Trump was voting for those racist plans. So regardless of sociopolitical machinations, there is an actual issue of racism there. Not liking the messenger doesn’t really change that.

  223. [Deleted because, hey, remember up top when I said we weren’t talking about Clinton? That includes Bill — JS]

  224. Pedro: None of which changes the truth of what I said. Regardless of whether an individual Trump voter is racist or not, sexist or not, homophobic or not, that voter knew those elements are there.

    It is no more than the truth to point out that they knew and accepted that.

    If that makes them uncomfortable: GOOD. They should be.

  225. jimbot,
    …no, on second thought I’m not going to waste the electrons. You know perfectly well why that’s a stupid analogy, and I was about to explain why it is one, but you’re not actually trying to converse, just trolling.

  226. John and John: I see some of the same crap that you see. But my thesis, if you will, pertains to reasons why people can look at the same thing and come away with very different interpretations. Think Rashomon.

  227. The part I question is “I live among Trump voters, and the ones I live among are lovely and kind and perfect neighbors. They are what nearly anyone would describe as good people, me included. As are, I think, the majority of the people who voted for Trump.” Could it be that you, as a white male with all the benefits of endemic, institutionalized racism and sexism (you don’t realize it’s there), give your lovely and kind and perfect Trump-voting neighbors a pass? Why? No one who voted for Trump is lovely or kind or perfect. They voted for a man who talks about women like they are objects (including his own daughter), who called Mexicans rapists and murderers, who wants to deport all Muslims, who implicitly called for his supporters to inflict violence on his opponent. Not kind, not perfect, not lovely. Not “good people,” very bad people. Your perfect neighbors, like all (not the majority) of the people who voted for Trump, sound monstrous, just like Trump himself.

  228. Dear Jimbot,

    Does responding to a silly, deflecting comment about racism that is based upon non sequitur and false equivalencies make me an enabler of racism and posts that are nonsensical?

    I mean, in case you missed my ever-so-subtle point, this is hardly any more of a illogical stretch than the derailment you’re attempting.

    pax \ Ctein
    [ Please excuse any word-salad. Dragon Dictate in training! ]
    ======================================
    — Ctein’s Online Gallery http://ctein.com
    — Digital Restorations http://photo-repair.com
    ======================================

  229. And here’s another good capsule from Maureen Sullivan in the NYT:
    People I know were… tired of being told they were racist and bigoted as they went about the business of mowing their lawns, writing college tuition checks and working their jobs as cops, secretaries and teachers’ aides. They kept being told they needed to look inward, examine their sins and judge themselves guilty.

    Yeah, you know what? None of that was actually happening. It was in their heads. What were being called out were racist /actions/ and you know what? If they were unhappy about that, maybe that says something right there.

  230. Excellent scenario, John, but not entirely true..

    Fact is, all your really want is entertainment or something different to past time away; so, you choose HBO knowing very well that Cinemax is an additional distraction.

    Directly back to the immediate subject, people who voted for Donald Trump was no more indifferent to Trump’s platform than they are to HBO vs. Cinemax. I’ll even go as far as to suggest that they don’t even care about America any more than their own parents whom they hope will remember them in the last will and testament. Please excuse the pessimism!

    People are, by nature, ethnocentric, they (we) believe that the (social) group we are associated with is better, more deserving than other cultural groups until others in the group leave him/her behind, they are the one’s who blame, Blacks, Immigrants etc., for their own inadequacies. A racist is a racist even if he/she is wealthy and it learned, handed down from mother/father to child. The Political Philosopher, Thomas Hobbes, believed that “the State of nature is ‘chaos and that people submit to authority as a means of survival.” For a pessimist such as myself, Hobbes is on to an important ‘social psychological’ reality many people want to reject. “The natural state of humanity is not peaceful, rather individuals would seek to better themselves at the expense of others (Hobbes).”

    Indeed, all the reasoning and blogging in the world will change the mind of an ethnocentrist as his/her very existence is embodied ‘postindustrial’ survival. The more uneducated, the greater sense of survival, the greater the ethnocentrism.

    Discrimination, arbitrary policing, and misogyny is the lifeblood of ignorance and fear. Sorry, but there is no getting though to a racist except the like minded. I mean why would an African American, immigrant or women vote for the likes of Donald Trump, and many did vote for him? Dr. Ben Carson supported Trump, he is not uneducated nor White, but he did vote for Trump, for a personal benefit and that is what makes him ignorant.

    Natural ‘radical’ social change is all we can hope for, the same sort of radical social change that caused the Emancipation Proclamation even as Ab Lincoln never wanted to end slavery, but had to as a means to grow military forces against the South and allowing slaves who joined the fight freedom. We are living a state of conundrum that is more serious then it is funny.

  231. gypsy818:

    “Could it be that you… give your lovely and kind and perfect Trump-voting neighbors a pass?”

    Nope. It could be instead that I’ve lived here for 16 years and have known most of them for a large majority of that time, and have gotten to see up close how they treat other people in their day to day lives. If you want to think they’re monstrous, I won’t stop you, but you’re wrong.

  232. “So, would you agree that everyone who voted for Hillary is as much of a war monger as anyone who voted for Trump is a racist?”

    That misses the point of the analogy. He’s saying that if you voted for Trump, you do so knowing racism is part of the package. He made a distinction between that and being a racist. Which is the entire point.

    I don’t know about John, but yes, when I voted for Hillary, I did so knowing any military adventurism she got into was part of the responsibility package.

  233. White nationalists would reasonably be expected to know if somebody was simpatico with their world views. Check out the second paragraph of this article here:

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/trump-victory-prompts-white-nationalists-seek-elected-office

    Or check out this article here:

    http://www.wvtm13.com/article/kkk-fliers-distributed-in-birmingham-neighborhood/8263992

    Similarly, folks who froth at the mouth at the thought of two men marrying each other would also have an idea if their views have traction:

    http://www.nomblog.com/41186/

    Now tell me again why Scalzi is wrong and that electing Trump didn’t mean voting for racism, sexism, and homophobia.

    And, bonus point, how do you feel about the possibility of Sarah Palin being Secretary of the Interior?

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/secretary-of-education-ben-carson-heres-a-list-potential-tru?utm_term=.vqOZZxO65#.jkp003VBj

  234. Rochrist: “Yeah, you know what? None of that was actually happening. It was in their heads. What were being called out were racist /actions/ and you know what? If they were unhappy about that, maybe that says something right there.”

    Some of the people Maureen Sullivan described might respond, “Don’t piss on my head and tell me it’s raining.”

    A less profane response would include the charge of “gas lighting,” which is basically the same thing as pissing on someone’s head and telling them it’s not raining.

    I kid you not.

  235. John Scalzi:
    I had the impression I was reading a blog written by people who disagree with me. What other form of ‘you first’ do you suggest?
    This thread repeatedly suggests that anyone voting Trump is complicit in racism, if not actively racist. I pointed out that there are 60 Mn Trump voters, ALL subjected by a huge majority here to contempt (if not ‘haters,’ to use leftist vernacular). A ‘Cinemax theory of racism’ is certainly innovative, as I described it. Indeed, I fail to see any straw man that I presented.
    If your purpose is to stiff-arm comments that challenge the reigning ethos here, please say so. I’ll leave you with people who overwhelmingly agree with you.

  236. Mike:

    “I fail to see any straw man that I presented.”

    This is not entirely surprising, lots of people don’t recognize when they’re doing that.

    Try again! You might see it!

  237. I agree with you characterization that a vote for Trump was a vote for racism. But I really hope, for the sake of the future, that the vast majority of people who did it were *fooling themselves* into believing it wasn’t. Given Trump’s habit of believing a thousand things before breakfast, there’s been a narrative that he doesn’t actually ever mean what he says. So, someone who wants to blow up the establishment can tell themselves that Trump won’t actually do all the nasty racist stuff he’s promised to do. The reason I call this the hopeful scenario is that it means these people know racism is wrong but have managed to fool themselves about it’s being here—because that would mean there will be general resistance if Trump actually tries to *do* the things he promised. It’s much more horrible to contemplate that Trump’s supporters knew he was racist and *didn’t care.” Because then there’s really nothing we can do.

  238. Hi John – First off I’ve enjoyed your writing about this – I’ve got some thoughts (background, I am basically loony lefty as)

    In my country, we have an English/Australian history test designed specially and targeted to deter Asian immigration– when this stuff was first instituted 20 years ago, I did scream loudly with others – we emailed, complained and all that about racism. And for the rest of the country it is now a social norm. Which is to say – crying about injustice has proven to be ineffective, that certain people take pleasure out of the injustice, and the rest don’t care because it doesn’t affect them.

    On the other hand, since then, I have experienced and grown more aware of elitism as a damaging part of society, and the left/progressive political cause. Which is not to say I think Hillary was elitist – I think she represents the best of us, that there are so many stories of her, not publicised, where she has taken actions of no benefit to her to help others who are vulnerable (I think she is socially awkward, not particularly charismatic, but a real good person who makes mistakes– the kind of person society struggles to make sense of). But – 49% of US college graduates voted for Trump, in line with the rest of the country – the “uneducated” Trump voter is an elitist narrative. I worked in a legal branch where they talked openly about what great progressive voters they were but who expected me to accept my station as a subservient, second class citizen who they were free to abuse because they were “professionals” and I am not. My wife did not go to university and has experienced uni graduates mansplaining to her, or treating her thinking as irrelevant – as a uni graduate I know she is way more inquisitive, philosophically questioning, and unconventional in her thinking than me. So going with your “Cinemax” narrative – as a leftist voter, I do vote for that elitist agenda as well and I sure as hell don’t want to.

    Some of the costs of this – elitisim makes me scared to say I prefer Steve Lukather to Jack Black and Bob Dylan might be for some, but sure isn’t for me; that I listen to Dream Theater a lot and Rush when the mood strikes me; that I like the novels of Jack Campbell; that wtf if it takes the Rock and Roll hall of fame 30 years to induct Deep Purple than maybe they should, just… (freaking, Smoke on the Water?!?). Elitisim ridicules Terry Pratchett as a hack in the week after he passes (there’s a guardian article somewhere, and I can’t be bothered looking it up) and makes me watch frustrated as fantasy novels are re-marketed by changing covers so that any hint of dragons/fantasy worlds/magic are removed. When the right complains about the “politically correct” it is hard to argue if the left continues to repress and downgrade ideas through invisible criteria.

    Finally – abuse. As someone who has/is both abusive and abused, I have seen the leap for people who live in abusive environments, who are abusers/abused to admit the true damage of abuse. Hillary’s performance in the second debate was textbook 100% correct with dealing with an abuser – but abuse is so wide spread in our society, I think a lot of people saw him as strong and her as weak. Which to me, probably generalising, explains why so many women (and, of course men) voted for him. Our society is so far away from even taking the first steps in combatting, understanding and ultimately alleviating abuse. To illustrate – I am a vegan because I believe animal agriculture is wrong – most people don’t agree with this because of the systemic repression of health/environment facts and hiding the truths of slaughter and “wastage”. People are not going out of their way to see what happens in a slaughterhouse – they know there is something there they don’t want to see. To reach the point where you think it is wrong takes a similar unconditioning that it takes to decry the abuse you have grown up believing it normal – if we are expecting others to make that leap, maybe we should realise how hard that leap is.

  239. Nope. It could be instead that I’ve lived here for 16 years and have known most of them for a large majority of that time, and have gotten to see up close how they treat other people in their day to day lives.

    With the greatest respect, and knowing that I don’t know them as you do, and all that goes with that, there are a couple of things about that.

    When I came out, some people I’d been friends with stopped speaking to me. They’d acted fine up until that point. Guys I was pals with at work turned out to spend their lunch hours catcalling women in the street. And my family seemed like a perfectly ordinary middle-class family unless you happened to come up the walkway while a screaming match was in progress (or walked into our kitchen in time to see my father punch me (at 13) in the head for breaking a pickle jar).

    You may very well have seen them tested in various ways, but until you do and no matter how nice they are to you and everyone you’ve seen them interact with, they can still surprise and shock you.

    How did they react when a Somali Muslim refugee family moved into their neighborhood? How did they react when their son brought his boyfriend home from college? How about when their child said “actually, I’m not your son, I’m your daughter”? When they found the knife, cup, wand, and pentacle in the box under their daughter’s bed?

    You may have seen their reactions to some or all of these. I don’t know, and I trust your judgement more than most. But I have lots of experience with people who thought their neighbors were decent, lovely people until one of those things happened, and then they saw that some of their neighbors were just the decent people they thought they knew, and others suddenly became monsters.

    I’ve also had someone treat me (via email) with scorn and contempt that suddenly turned to “normal” interactions when she met me in person and saw that I was white.

    I’m not saying you don’t know how good and decent these people are. I’m saying that if you do, it’s because you’ve seen them tested.

  240. David Karger: “there will be general resistance if Trump actually tries to *do* the things he promised.” It’s much more horrible to contemplate that Trump’s supporters knew he was racist and *didn’t care.” Because then there’s really nothing we can do.”

    I wouldn’t say “general resistance,” but last night’s multiple urban protests were the functional equivalent of a warning shot being fired across the starboard bow.

  241. I ended up voting for Trump. I didn’t think I would, at first. I’ve voted fairly reliably democratic since I started voting, though I liked his stand on immigration, because I actually work in immigration enforcement. But then, seemingly mostly based on that and some comments and stands that he took years and years ago, he was called racist. And eventually, I realized that this was how they also viewed me, and the fact that I had a black wife and mixed-race children was irrelevant, if they bothered to notice me, it would be with contempt. And while Trump was a buffoon, he at least wouldn’t insult me and my 20 years of service to the Republic. And now after the election, I feel more and more distant; other than immigration, I generally agree more with democratic positions, but I feel like there is nothing but insults left there. So I’m left confused. Perhaps there are others like me, in small towns here and there, who voted Democratic year after year and now find only insults rather than an attempt at understanding their positions.

  242. Funny thing is, once you get that package that includes Cinemax (that you didn’t want and claim you’ll never watch), you gradually find yourself tuning into Cinemax more and more, until you decide you really like Cinemax.

  243. I share this in the hope of provoking thought, not as an accusation aimed at any particular individual.

    It has been my recent experience and observation that those who cry ‘racist’ aimed at others, are in fact often the ones most conscious of race as a potential issue and in a perverse kind of way actually the most racist themselves. The same for gender based issues.

    Unfortunately my “status” as a white hetero male with a good job, good education and almost classically standard nuclear family renders my views and opinions automatically null and void in certain circles.

    There is probably a whole thesis around the concept that those who most want to protect the perceived minority races and genders are in fact the ones who least empower them, but in fact coddle them and enforce racial and gender stereotyping.

    There is a great divide between being able to recognise and celebrate diversity (which is a good thing) and enforce it’s non existence.

    The Overton window has been very much opened.

  244. They didn’t vote for racism! They voted to make America great again!

    They’re certainly making America grate again.

  245. I think this is an important article and helps me to process the entire event. I am struggling just to get through the day. Last night 5 people were shot (Seattle) and the first question asked “was it because of the election”.

  246. (and I’m talking about proof beyond a reasonable doubt to a moral certainty here; cutting a check to Planned Parenthood won’t clear that bar).

    Sure as hell won’t hurt, mind.

  247. Absolutely spot on! Thanks for the analogy (I’m never good at explaining things in an easier way, yours is as clear as can be).
    Hard times are upon us, as not only the American people voted for racism, but also the Brits with Brexit and I tremble in advance about the upcoming presidential elections in France (my home country) next May… Racism, sexism, homophobia have gone viral lately, as have screwed up governments…
    How can we get rid of the latter without using the “punishing vote” method and falling into the extremes is my worry of the moment. Because none of the potential candidates fulfills 100% of the cine package we want for our country, fellow citizens, ourselves and the planet….

  248. Note to everyone:

    I’m going to be turning off the comments here when I go to sleep tonight and won’t be turning them back on, because tomorrow I have things to do and will be away from the computer all day. So if you have anything pertinent to say, do it by about 10pm Eastern, please.

  249. We have a local holiday here so I’ve been able to spend (or should that be waste?) the last 4 hours following this discussion.
    Interesting points from all directions. I’ll agree with shakauvm and others who’ve argued that people did not vote for Trump because of racism, it was for other reasons, and they just accepted the racist part of the overall platform.
    For critics to reduce their opposition to this one thing is … dangerous shall we say. However I’ll agree that a Trump voter cannot disown this aspect of his policies.
    As I’ve read through the postings a thought came to mind. Am I just seeing the Grief Cycle in action and it’s moved from Denial to Anger?
    I know you all have to wait a couple of months to see what he will do once in power. Follow through on what he said he’d do or roll out the actual agenda that politicians never mention because that would make them unelectable. And that’s why they are at the bottom of the most admired professions list along with used car salesmen and lawyers.

  250. Tomorrow I still get to wake up and be a white middle aged man that looks like your typical middle aged dad. I am gay but I blend in. I am scared and truly fear for the lives and livelihoods of my friends of color. I’ll never understand what they go though, but when a buddy of mine that is black won’t come with to catch pokemon in the park and his excuse is, “walking while black is dangerous now”, you are jolted into a new reality.

  251. KiwiSteve:

    “For critics to reduce their opposition to this one thing is … dangerous shall we say.”

    You may be working under the impression that because this entry focused on one aspect of the Trump agenda, that this is the only aspect of the Trump agenda people would be concerned about.

  252. I don’t really believe Trump is particularly racist. I believe you believe that, and I believe a lot of people apparently believe that, but I’m not really seeing it; at least not in a more recent sense than decades ago. What’s he done recently other than ask for serious immigration enforcement? Is that enough to be racist? I’m not seeing what you are seeing, or perhaps vice-versa. I’m not sure I wanted to go, but I feel told to leave. I think this is more or less why the election turned out as it did.

  253. Just as I was yesterday, I would love to be reassured. So, to all those people who voted for Trump but who say they don’t agree with his racist views, here are my questions for you:

    — If Trump or his administration try to put racist policing policies in place like the style of stop-and-frisk that was ruled unconstitutional in New York, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If the judge who has to rule as to whether Trump University was an illegal scam is again impugned by Trump for being “Mexican”, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump tries to put in a religious test for entering the United States, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump starts placing restrictions on Muslim and/or Hispanic Americans, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump or the Republican party continue to put restrictions on voting in place that are deliberately targeted at African-Americans, will you voice your dissatisfaction?

    While we’re at it:

    — If Trump’s administration says that people “have no right to [peacefully] protest” Trump or his policies, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump bans specific newspapers from White House press conferences as retaliation for criticizing him, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump tries to strengthen libel laws so that he can sue more people for saying things about him that he doesn’t like, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If, come next election, Trump continues to say that he won’t necessarily respect an election result that he doesn’t win, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump tries to abolish term limits so that he can be President For Life, will you voice your dissatisfaction?
    — If Trump uses Guantanamo Bay as a way to threaten or imprison people who hold particular religious or political views, will you voice your dissatisfaction?

    You want me to believe you’re not racist? You want me to believe that you still believe in freedom and democracy and individual rights? Prove it. Speak up. Draw me some lines, people. I’m not picky. You don’t have to draw all the lines. I will take your support on whatever I can get. But I would love to be reassured on any one of these questions right now.

  254. @GemmaM, I personally don’t know a single person who voted for Trump who would not be appalled at any of those policies you mentioned being implemented. Granted, I can’t say my circle of Trump supports is very large (15ish maybe?). But this is also why I don’t understand why everyone is is trying to group all trump supporters under the same “supporting racism” umbrella.

  255. @Michelle V: “I saw one person (shakauvm) try to tread the line of compromise and rationality (even if I think his final decision to vote for Trump was misinformed and wrong, but you’re free to disagree and debate that in our free society)”

    I did not vote for Trump. I could not bring myself to vote for either Trump or Clinton, due to the massive failings with both of them. I voted for Gary Johnson (and in a state in which it didn’t matter).

    >and was immediately shouted down and called something he isn’t by 2 others (Kat Ling and cranapia) at the time of my writing this reply. This is why candidates like Donald Trump arose.

    Right. As I said, calling people racists, when they aren’t racists, is both inaccurate and counterproductive. You think a Detroit union worker is going to want to vote Democrat again after his former allies being called a racist because he wants his damn job back? Do they think they’re *helping* by branding them with a label that would get them fired if it was true?

    And yes, I actually think they do. As you say, empathy is more important than ever right now. But they’re wrong to do so, and lashing out angrily is just going to harm themselves more.

    People who voted for Trump *are not their enemies*. We’re all Americans. We’re all in this together. We’re all trying to make the country a better place. Despite differences of opinion in how to get there, Americans are generally decent, kind, good people – whether or not they voted the way you liked.

    >This is why this will continue to happen. If someone says outright “I voted for Trump because I think women shouldn’t be allowed to rule this country”, then yes, that opinion doesn’t deserve merit or respect and should be treated in that manner.

    Agreed. If someone makes a racist statement, then call them out on it.

    Don’t call someone a racist because they disagreed with you and chose what they felt was the lesser of two evils.

  256. @Xopher

    Sometimes people surprise you in a positive way, not just a negative way. My parents have lived in the same house for almost 3 decades and they’re the newcomers on the block. The neighbors to the right aren’t just extremely conservative Evangelicals, they’re ministers. In 2008, they put up a “Yes on 8” (Prop 8 being the proposition banning gay marriage in California). My sister is gay and out, but had never came out to them. So my mom asked her if she could tell them, got her consent, then went next door to talk. They took the sign down.

    More than 5 years later, when my sister got married, we had a family friend decline to come to the wedding on religious grounds. Everyone was pissed, but nobody more than our longtime neighbors. They came to celebrate with my sister and our family, you see, despite them being ministers in a religion which is very anti-gay marriage. They’d learned since 2008 that while they don’t agree with gay marriage on a religious level, that doesn’t mean that they have to impose their beliefs on others. They understood that love is more important than hate and standing together makes us all stronger.

    I was, frankly, shocked. I’d written them off after 2008 because I didn’t think they were capable of understanding and change. But my mom stayed friends with them, my sister continued to be her charming self, and they learned.

    The moral of this story? I have hope. I have hope that the people who’ve made this colossal error will see the light. I have hope that people like my mom and sister will continue to make the world a better place by not refusing to engage with people who have hateful views.

    I made a mistake in 2008, but I’m determined not to do it again. I’m not ready yet to have those conversations. Things are still really raw and I’m not in a good place. I want to lash out, not reach out. But I will. I will fight to make sure people’s rights are protected. And I will fight to make sure our misguided neighbors are shown that the “other” they’re so angry at or afraid of is actually an awesome person who just wants to be loved the way you do.

    For those who are still struggling: I am too. Feel what you need to. Take some time for self care. Then we get to work.

  257. Gemma: While I voted for Trump, I also took an oath to defend the constitution and pretty much every one of the things you mention here are unconstitutional. Though I do find it ironic, that the only people now refusing to respect election results, are some of the people who complained that Trump didn’t say he’d respect the election results. That’s properly ironic!

  258. Do you know how many liberal City dwellers choose to buy into coop buildings with boards that want the convenience of having neighbors who are just like them? Do you know how many liberal Americans live in suburbs where the package deal includes racial segregation? Racism is part of the American package my friend and always has been. Truth be told, when it comes to racism, Trump’s America really isn’t much different from Hillary’s America.

  259. Louise: FWIW, the main reasons I see that Trump is called racist, is some stuff on renting apartments that dates to the early 1970s and the ad about the central park 5, who while innocent were basically assumed to be guilty by everyone at that point. Perhaps Clinton is racist, too, after all her statement about “superpredators” is newer and had more negative impact, given her position.

  260. Hi John
    I wasn’t suggesting your criticism of Trump voters was based on one aspect of Trump’s agenda.

    It was more an under elaborated comment on the risk of picking on only one aspect. Ask people why they wouldn’t have voted for Hillary and I would suggest that the most common first answer would be emails. And for some people that would be their only answer.

    Pounding on one aspect only (speaking generally) runs the risk of that becoming the only aspect.

    I’m no Trump fan and he should be hounded from day one. “Mr President, you said you’d do X. When do you expect a bill before the House?”. “Oh, so sometime next year is getting things done?”. So on and so forth.

  261. Johnjaylward – you say
    “I am not defending racism. I’m defending people’s right to vote without being stereotyped into a bucket of other deployable humans who also happened to vote for the same person but likely for different reasons.”

    And what you seem to be not getting is that I don’t care what their reasons were. I don’t care why they chose Trump. They are entitled to vote for who they want.

    The problem is that REGARDLESS of the reasons they chose him – they ended up choosing the whole package. They, through their vote, endorsed a man who has made racist, sexist, homophobic comments. A man who chose as a running mate (and who was also voted for) another man who has been adamantly against LGBTQ rights and has made his own share of cringeworthy comments about women and people of color.

    Go back to the original analogy. You wanted HBO, but HBO only came with Cinemax. You don’t like the programming on Cinemax, you find it morally reprehensible, you would never watch such things nor would you ever pay for such a channel were it offered to you as a stand alone product. Yet by subscribing to the package only because of HBO, you are indeed still subscribing to that thing you don’t like and don’t agree with – even if you never ever watch it.

    That isn’t stereotyping. That is just the way it is. You may not like the way that feels, but it is just the plain, lucid, fact of the matter.

  262. TRUTH:
    Trump doesn’t subscribe to white guilt. Yes, he’s said things about Blacks, Hispanics, Middle Easterners, but he’s said a lot worse about other white people. White men! You might agree with this: society allows racism. As long as you’re racist against your own race. Then no one thinks twice. Step over the race line and you’re being a “terrible, racist scumbag.” But say whatever you want to people that look like you. Trump says whatever he wants to everyone equally. Shouldn’t that be viewed through the same corrupt yet “acceptable” lens?

  263. Scotty Does Know Good:

    You… you fundamentally don’t understand how racism works, do you?

    (Note: This is not actually a question. You apparently don’t.)

  264. And to your point, you my friend, are absolutely correct however few will admit or accept it. Special, individualized attention to specific groups of people OVER OTHER GROUPS is, in fact, doing more to hurt than help EQUALITY in this country.

  265. As a queer woman of color, as an immigrant and a non-Christian, and as a citizen of a country whose diversity I find a feature rather than a bug to be exterminated, I really appreciate our host’s post and the commenters who elucidated his point. If it’s possible that the US won’t actually expel or crush people like me, it’ll be because of people with privilege who are willing to contemplate at least some of what we face. Thank you.

    I could try to argue with those who aren’t willing, but I’ve spent enough years trying to convince such people I’m a human being. I think this election has proven the pointlessness of that effort, that I need to save my strength for the forthcoming struggles.

  266. GemmaM: Thank you for the list. Those are many of the exact issues I’ve been worrying over today. What if Trump actually does what he said he was going to do? I’m a middle-aged, married straight, white, native born American man with an okay professional-type job who lives in a suburb. I’ve never voted Republican in my life, and doubt I ever will. But I am clearly another person who could keep my head down and weather this shitstorm with no harm.

    Howeve, I also live in a region with one of the largest concentrations of Muslim immigrants in the US, and I work at a community college that has a good number of those folks as students. I’ve hired Muslims for my department as student workers, and I probably will in the future.

    If the Trump Administration creates the “database of all Muslims” to watch them carefully (as candidate Trump explicitly promised), how are they going confirm that they got everybody? Are government agents going to come around to college campuses and workplaces asking people like me to name names? Maybe turn in reports on what “those people” are up to? If that day does come, I hope I have the courage to refuse, and take the consequences. Do I expect any Trump voters will be backing me up in that decision? No I do not.

  267. Kathryne: Well, I guess there were only two packages and I thought the other was worse. I’d go into that, but we’ve been asked to specifically not discuss the Clinton package. You came to another conclusion. Presumably, you’d like me, and others, to change our mind before the next election. I’m real sure that if you insult us enough, we’ll come around any day now.

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