Review: Avengers: Endgame

(Note: No specific plot spoilers in the review, but I’m going to allow people to post spoilers in the comments, so if you’re one of the three people in the world who haven’t seen the film yet, you might want to skip the comments until you do.)

Avengers: Endgame is a once-in-a-lifetime cinematic experience, and I mean that in two very specific ways. First, it’s a film that (generally) effectively, (mostly) competently and (sometimes) ingeniously serves as a capstone to a series of films spanning twenty-two installments, which is a species of cinematic beast that’s never really been managed before and seems unlikely ever to be pulled off again; Second, that having seen it, I don’t feel like I ever need to see it again in this lifetime.

I feel the second, because Endgame is the first. Endgame has an immense amount of ground to cover: It has to follow the cliffhanger of Infinity War, try to wrap up plot threads left dangling from every Marvel film since the original Iron Man in 2008, leave a bunch of plot threads that can be taken up in the upcoming “Phase Four” of the Marvel film universe (and the various TV series that are coming to Disney’s long-expected streaming service), and adequately shuffle off the stage the several major stars whose long-term Marvel contracts are up. With all that as its remit, it’s a miracle that Endgame is watchable at all, much less actually entertaining in the moment. That it is means that major props are due to Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely, the screenwriters, and to the Russo Brothers, who, with this and Infinity War, and the two Captain America films they’ve directed, make an argument for being the pre-eminent cinematic field marshals of our time.

With that said, “watchable” and “entertaining in the moment” are not precisely the same thing to me as “fun” and “enjoyable.” Watching Endgame to me felt like being on a forced march through a checklist of plot points and character moments, and after a (very short) time I began to be rather conscious of all the scenes that existed not to be an organic moment of story but to be fanservice for a particular character (or set of characters), or to make sure some barely-remembered loose end was tucked in. By the third act and its climactic and overstuffed battle scene, it stopped being clever and started being exhausting. I felt like a kid on vacation being dragged to all the sights on a tour, with no time to really enjoy any of them because look, we’re on a schedule here.

“But that’s why you see it a second time!” Well, and to quote Thor here:

I should be clear that I don’t think I missed any significant moments in the film — I got them, because the design of the film was such that I was meant to get them, and Disney (and its attendant cinematic technicians) make it their business to make sure they are gotten. Endgame’s charms are all on the surface, and they are all very brief. The thing that makes me want to rewatch a movie, in most cases, is the ability to linger: With the characters, with the world, with the entire milieu that the film creates.

And that’s the thing about Endgame — there’s just no lingering. Not with the characters, not with the world, not with any part of it. It’s not meant for lingering; it has no time for it. We have a timetable, and it has to be made. Now, it does make want to rewatch other Marvel films, where I do get those character and world moments: Thor: Ragnarok. Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Guardians of the Galaxy. Spider-Man: Homecoming. Iron Man 3 (yes, Iron Man 3. Fight me). But Endgame? Meh, not so much.

Mind you, my opinion that Endgame merits only a single watch is being amply refuted by the large number of folks who have gone back to watch the film twice or three times or more. Good for them. I’m glad and not in the least surprised that they have been entertained; as I noted, moment to moment, the film is entertaining, and savvy enough as popular entertainment to give their characters, especially the ones whose actors are at the end of their contracts, moments you can cheer and cry for them. This is Disney, folks. They know popular entertainment.

The point I’m trying to make is that stringing individually entertaining moments together does not in itself a substantive cinematic experience make. Endgame isn’t a sumptuous meal; it’s a bunch of tasty canapes fed to you on a conveyor belt, with no time to savor one before the next one comes along. I like canapes! And I enjoyed Endgame, which is in its very specific way a marvel, pun entirely intended. But I’m not sure I need to have this cinematic canape conveyor belt experience more than once in my life.

95 thoughts on “Review: Avengers: Endgame

  1. REMINDER: I’m allowing spoilers in the comments! Don’t read the comments if you’re not prepared for spoilers.

    Also, in case you missed it, my Infinity War review from last year.

    I should be also be clear, in case I wasn’t already, that I don’t know that it could have been possible for Endgame to have been done better, or to be better, as a film than as it is in its current form. The filmmakers had a very unusual and very specific task given to them with this movie. I think they pulled it off as well as anyone could have.

  2. Endgame just further convinced me that it is impossible to introduce time travel to a movie without also introducing glaring plotholes.

  3. Also PTSD Thor is going to be the #1 Halloween costume in the male 35-45 demo this year.

  4. First comment, ftw!

    I’m really disappointed that after two movies about the friendship between Steve and Bucky, we didn’t get any serious closure on their friendship.

  5. Interesting review that captured my thoughts on the film pretty well. I’ve been going through a bunch of Miyazaki’s movies for the first time recently, and I couldn’t help but notice how after watching something like Mononoke I’m thinking about it for days, but after Endgame I’m not sure i would’ve thought about it much at all had it not dominated conversation online and elsewhere.

    I’ve got one question, because I do agree that there are some Marvel characters that I actually do care about – do you think that sacrifices to other narratives in Marvel were made here? I’m thinking especially about Guardians, and how they’re going to have to address the whole Gamora situation in the next movie, and I’m… not super confident that there’s a good answer there? Endgame was a big fun romp, but I wonder if it fed off the other, more thoughtful Marvel stories in a way that might cheapen them or sacrifice potentially good character beats. I guess the jury will be out until we see where those stories go in the future, but I’m certainly a little nervous about it. I wonder if we look back at the whole Infinity War/Endgame arc in a few years and wonder if it didn’t cannibalize some of Marvel’s more personal and ultimately interesting material.

  6. Great review! I’m a huge Marvel geekette, who has seen them all many times, but agree that after seeing it at noon the first day it opened, I have had no desire to watch it again. And I really did love it. I laughed, I sobbed, I nearly yelled out loud in fierce joy at the female-led battle scene…all wonderful. But that was enough for me. All the loose ends have been wrapped up. I’m good.

  7. Good review – in the way that I don’t necessarily agree with everything you say but it is thoughtful and makes me wonder. I thoroughly enjoyed it for what it was – a love letter to the fans wrapped in an acceptable film. That said I have two major niggles – Thor (I will say no more than what a waste) and “huge plot holes” (way bigger than I can usually swallow for the cause.
    P.S. Iron Man 3 – really?

  8. I can see why the checklist structure bothered you, and I agree that the movie was lacking in the “pause and smell the cinematic universe along the way” aspect. That said, I probably would watch it again because the biggest selling point was, at least for me, the callbacks and easter eggs planted throughout the movie. They throwed a lot of the narrative cohesion in favour of them, so at least I was glad they were so entertaining.
    However, I was disappointed to see how they went so hard for allyship pins while simultaneously doing so poorly in regards to the treatment and protagonism given to female characters, the whole fatsuit issue, and the still non existent LGBT representation in twenty one (21) ducking movies.
    Again, I really enjoyed the movie and would watch it again, but they could have done so much better

  9. Me, I have to watch it again. There were so many distractions when I saw it, from the pack of giggling morons to the guy who made noises like a professional mourner every time certain characters came on screen, that I’m sure I missed something. =shrugs= By the time I collect all the movies to watch ’em in sequence again to lead up to Endgame, It’ll be a year anyways… =looks at the shelves of blurays & dvds= Plus I’m going to need more shelves…

  10. A little bit of spoilers fridge horror. When the people get undusted they return to a world that is logistically set up for the previous population. What happens when everyone realizes that there’s only enough food, medical care, etc. for half the population?

  11. “Endgame just further convinced me that it is impossible to introduce time travel to a movie without also introducing glaring plotholes.”

    Does it? I mean, I’ve seen a lot of talk about plotholes in this movie, but on closer analysis they usually add up to, “The movie has time travel work this way, but I want time travel to work a different way, so the movie is wrong.”

    NOW, admittedly, the “time travel” here is basically specifically-designed-for-the-story-they-want-to-tell handwavium, so they can heist things from the past without affecting the present. If that’s not a thing you can buy into, it’s not going work for you. But that’s about suspension of disbelief, not plot holes.

  12. I had mixed feelings. I also would’ve liked more pauses, more character moments, but of course they had a hell of a lot of plot to get through.

    And there are definitely plot holes; it’s easy to fanwank half a dozen ways they could’ve prevented “the Snap” in the previous movie. But comic-book based movies have always had plot holes; it’s more about dramatic effect than logic, and there are few things more dramatic than having a sorcerer look into the future and say, “This is the only way.”

    In terms of plotting, though, this movie made me think of the “positional chess” technique (that James D. MacDonald talks about): have a lot of pieces on the board (story elements), with potential for interaction and different effects. The previous 21 movies have placed a tremendous number of story elements in the world they’ve created, and the way some of them came into play was very clever. True that cleverness isn’t the same as a truly satisfying, layered story, but I’ve got to give them credit for gathering so many plotlines into a coherent three hours.

    As for the time travel — well, it’s a comic book movie. So a justified rant by Bruce Banner about how time travel movies don’t make sense (absolutely true; I hate the Back to the Future model) is immediately followed by a scene where we see *this* movie’s version of time travel makes no effin’ sense either.

    Speaking of time — does the “Five Years Later” mean that the upcoming Spiderman movie is set in the mid-2020s?

    (And, is it true that if you go backwards in time, a jade egg flies out of Gwyneth Paltrow?)

  13. I appreciate your perspective, even if it’s more positive than I could bring myself to be. After a week of seeing gushing, fawning reports from friends and family, I admit I was highly disappointed in Endgame. However, like you, it did encourage me to want to rewatch some of the older installments.

  14. Psst… it’s “Ragnarok”… (“Ragnorak” sounds like something you’ll wear to keep the wind out…).

    Chris Hemsworth is a worthy Thor. I really disliked the Marvel comic Thor in the 70-ies. He was very much not like the Thor of the eddas. However, Hemsworths, wisecracking, beer swilling Thor is much more like the Thor of the Norse legends. And the Led Zeppelin moment of Ragnarok is a favourite.

  15. For once I agree wholeheartedly with John. Watching it was a experience of sheer endurance for me. I liked wrapping up loose ends, but there were enough holes in the climax to sink the Titanic in less time. Still it is nice to see an ending. I doubt I’ll be back to rewatch, but at least I didn’t feel I wasted my time in going to see it.

  16. Time travel plothole #1: Nebula could have summoned a nigh-infinite number of Thanoses (Thanii?) to the big ultimate battle.

    Time travel plothole #2: they seemed to play AWFULLY fast and loose with what would cause a divergent timeline to form.

  17. I have NO plans to see the film you review here. I might have seen the original Spiderman, but that is it. I never have had any interest in the Marvel comics universe. My tastes as a kid in the fifties and teen in the sixties ran to Superman, Batman, and the Green Lantern. I even skipped the Green Lantern movie a few years back due to the critical reviews of the film. Now Tolkien’s universe, the Game of Thrones universe? Those are places to both read and view the related films again and again. I hope Tyrion Lannister takes the throne, but wouldn’t it be cool if the Night King from the North took the throne. Cool thought huh (pun intended).

  18. The time travel is fine, if you accept the many world interpretation of QM and accept that there may be a way to exchange information between worlds (i.e.timelines). That is why Tony mentions, what he calls the Deutsch, proposition. Maybe throw in a little ERP=ER and holographic principle for the actual time travel. Of course, they don’t give a real explanation, because there really isn’t one and most of what they say is technobabble, but it is better than most time travel stories. It is a good way to remove all plot holes. You just need to know that Cap did live in a different timeline with Peggy and let his other self stay on ice.

  19. There’s going to be huge pressure for this to get a “Return of the King” best picture Oscar for the series. I think the Academy should short circuit that by just giving the collective whole a special achievement award.

  20. I won’t be reading the comments, but what I want to know, John, is how you knew that my son, best friend and I are the only people that haven’t seen “Endgame.” We’re going tomorrow.

  21. I mostly agree with this take. For me, it didn’t feel *as* checklisty (other than the all-women Dream Team moment, which I managed to appreciate and find cheap in the same moment) … but that was mostly because the time-travel plot didn’t hold together at all. I know lampshading is a thing, but don’t go on an extended riff about how the timelines don’t work in a long list of other movies if you don’t want the viewers to pay particular attention to all the messes you make.

    Worse, their “solution” purposely preserves a double apocalypse — first vanishing half the world’s population, which means planes crash and babies starve/dehydrate and the traffic disasters are epic, etc., etc., ending up in a world that … looks mostly the same but people don’t go to baseball games because they’re too busy weeping over meals, I guess?; then bringing people *back to where they vanished* (since Spidey and Strange were still on the planet of wonky gravity), which presumably means people popping up 10,000 feet midair or in the middle of traffic and so on. Multiplied times every planet and species in the universe, of course.

    They also threw away the chance to call back to the model in Guardians 1 of sharing the load. (I actually noticed that during the movie; that and the double-apocalypse have been explored in at least one fanfic, which was a bit cheesy, sure, but which at least held together better.)

    So, yeah. I was entertained in the moment, and I wasn’t as irritated by this one as I was by Ultron, but I don’t see a need to watch it again. Then again, I also liked IM3 well enough, so what do I know.

  22. “Time travel plothole #1: Nebula could have summoned a nigh-infinite number of Thanoses (Thanii?) to the big ultimate battle.”

    I mean, is that a “plot hole”? Is any “Character theoretically could have done a thing that they did not do” a plot hole? That’s sort of like saying, “Thor, at no point, smashes Tony Stark’s head like a grape” is a plot hole.
    (Also I question whether “Summon infinite Thanii” would be a victory condition for Nebula/Thanos. Thanos doesn’t seem the type to go, “Well, it’s OK if I lost, given that Thanos-B got the stones.”)

  23. I personally think it was a plot hole for the intelligent supervillian to be given an instant win button and not push it. Thanos could collapse all the divergent timelines down to his singular victory timeline with the infinity gauntlet.

  24. Infinity War was the better cinematic experience. Walking out of that theater was the quietest, eeriest, most shook audience I’ve been around. End Game did what it had to do, and did it really well. I laughed way more than I anticipated. But from a cinematic experience, didn’t quite live up to Infinity War.

  25. The “canapes on a conveyor belt” analogy is, sadly, an apt analogy as well for almost every major action film of the last 2 decades. There’s no real plot, just a series of action scenes–or canapes on a conveyor belt–and I, for one, am tired of the formula.

  26. I am really disappointed they refrigerated Black Widow (killed her to move the story forward) since she is the only female in the original six and she didn’t even get to the final battle. It should have been clint.

    A few other issues I had, still love the world, still liked the movie but I think I would only own it just to complete the world (and since I own the other 22 movies… it means I will still probably buy it).

  27. Black Widow’s stand-alone is supposed to be a prequel, like the Captain Marvel film. (Marvel really does fridge its women, don’t you think? Even when they get to headline a film, it’s always a prequel, so any fan can always feel free to skip it since it can’t affect anyone’s timeline.)
    The great plot hole for me is why did Dr. Strange give Thanos the time-stone, which is effectively a time-machine, if the only reason to save Tony Stark is that he can build a time-machine? However, I guess the point is to make Tony Stark the Most Important Character in the Marvel universe, forever. Which, given that he’s a misogynist playboy, kind of fits in with the whole fridging-the-women mindset….

  28. Just appalled by how the women were fridged, had their comic canon moments taken from them, and basically treated as nice little cookies to reward the men for their suffering.

    Also HATED the idea that Steve Rogers, *who’s been in the 21st century for over a decade,* STILL is not over his crush on Peggy Carter. I’m convinced they threw this in rather than set up Steve for the actual love of his life in the comics, Sharon Carter, because so many fans went absolutely berserk at the idea that he kissed her in Civil War. So they basically trashed six films and a TV series for a cute sentimental moment that doesn’t pass the sniff test, plus posits that Steve could possibly keep his mouth shut about Hydra infiltrating the very agency where his beloved wife works.

  29. For me it was as close to perfect as a film could be. I was much more satisfied than I expected to be, but I still want to watch it again (to see more of what was happening in the final battle, for one thing).

    Morgan made us all think maybe Iron Man would survive after all.

    Having Natasha die in the exact same, equally offensive (fridging women so men can be emotional about it) way as Gamora, but having seen mini Gamora in an orange-y world makes me think both women can and hopefully will come back (they’re in the soul stone’s pocket dimension).

    Time travel is always stupid; I made my peace with that long before I saw the film. And I like the reversal of selfish Iron Man sacrificing his life and selfless Captain America finally getting a life, so I’ll forgive the blatant nonsense of all of that Peggy tale. Of course I would have preferred that he and Bucky got together (and ideally he and Bucky and Falcon, because I’m just greedy), but Bucky has a happy place in Wakanda.

    And I’m over the moon about Falcon getting to become the next Captain America. It doesn’t make up for Marvel’s awful track record on diversity, but it bodes well for the next phase.

    I spent the whole movie stunned at the writing that managed to do SO MUCH (I am a writer). I cared about Nebula for the first time.

    Saying “Disney does this, and does this well” is true, but feels slightly dismissive of what a brilliant piece of writing it all is.

    Felicity Banks

  30. I suspect the DVD version with extras will be more rewatchable and solve some of your problems with this. I have no doubt that there are far more scenes filmed than shown here; in fact, I think one of the Russos mentioned that they had hours more available that they had to cut. (I am NOT recommending they turn this into a six hour movie, by the way.)
    LORD OF THE RINGS edged up on some of the same issues (though it is fundamentally a simpler story as told than this one, which has many protagonists), and I find the Extended Editions are those I want to watch, because it fills in JUST a bit more.

  31. I had to see the movie twice because the first time my expectations were in the way, and there was too much going on in too many timelines for my ancient brain to keep track of. It did play better for me on round two, but there were still a lot of issues where I disagreed with where they were going, or thought they could have handled better (turning Thor into a running gag on how funny PTSD is, for one thing). I, too, would like to see the DVD extras.

  32. Yeah. My review has tended to be, I enjoyed it and “It checked all the boxes.” Also, although I’ll undoubtedly watch it again sometime when it’s out on video or Netflix or whatever, the marathon theater session, well, once was enough for me. Also, and this is a conversation my son and I have a fair number of discussions about, both of us being writers, I guess, but sometimes it seems to be that there’s a very big difference between a “great Marvel movie” and a “great movie.” I like them fine. Some are way better than others. They all seem to do what they intend to do and do it well. But…

  33. I loved the movie. It did what it was supposed to do. Entertain this (post) middle aged fool that grew up reading this genre.
    Still waiting for the Hitler youth group to lose their shit about the new Captain America. They did when it happened in the books.

  34. I decided to not bother seeing Endgame today despite it showing a short stroll from home. I didn’t see it precisely because to do that I’d have to watch the other 21 MCU shows, and I neither have the time nor the inclination for most of them.

    That’s the thing about continuity — unlike thing-of-the-week, continuity programming becomes impossible to pick up after about the first season. From then on, there are too many characters, in-jokes, backstories, etc. required to even grasp, much less understand, even one episode. And it is almost never worth the effort compared to, like, life.

    So, who knows? Maybe in a few years when I’m no longer up to doing other things I’ll binge-watch the MCU tales. Or not. After all, there are books on math, physics, and fuzzies. Plus cats.

  35. It’s interesting to read the take here, because it’s very much the way I felt about Infinity War, and it’s… well, ‘one’ opposite to the way I feel about Endgame.

    Infinity War for me was very much a series of set pieces strung together with the absolute minimum of connecting tissue. No matter how good any individual set piece was, the whole never gelled and it was ultimately unsatisfying.

    Endgame, OTOH, worked much better for me because it did feel like there was a through-line, that one scene did build to the next in a way that made it come across as a unified story. Not a lot of depth, but at least it all hung together in a way that Infinity War didn’t.

  36. I enjoyed it very much. There were parts that made me laugh and parts that made me cry and a couple of genuine awwww moments.I was so very sad for Clint at the beginning, which I think brought home the reality of the situation for half the planet. Would I watch it again? Probably not. The only two of these that I have had any desire to rewatch are Winter Soldier and Ragnarok.

    I am annoyed at the loss of Black Widow, especially as the only woman of the original set (and the only one not to have a movie planned for during the original run – pretty sure that was an afterthought after fan complaints), not as much at the loss of Tony Stark. I really liked the all-female-going-into-battle idea, but mostly because I was not happy that there was very little Carol Danvers in the film. I was also disappointed that we didn’t really get much Bucky.

    I do agree that the Russo brothers have set themselves up as filmmakers whose films I will want to watch. Although mostly I’m just really happy Joss Whedon had nothing to do with it, so I didn’t have to endure his snide women-are-just-for-sex one-liners expressed in language he doesn’t think everyone understands.

    So, a great three hours (which actually didn’t feel that long) but no busrning desire to go back.

  37. I think I might not ever watch this movie.

    I like certain Marvel movies and characters, but after Avengers 2 I decided that the ensemble movies were just not working for me and that I would wait on Marvel movies generally until they come out on disc. The criteria I wait for is to hear that the movie did not feel exhausting or dominated by the action sequences. In this respect our host’s review is very useful to me since I confirms my general sense that Endgame is a movie for an audience that does not include me, so thanks for writing it.

  38. We really enjoyed Endgame, and we’re going back to see it again in the next day or two. I had no problem with its version of time travel. It’s not like Elon Musk has a working time machine in his basement. I’ve seen most of the movies in the series and have grown fond of the excellent ensemble of characters. They played well off each other. The great dialog kept reminding me of old movies from the 1930s when “umm” wasn’t considered particularly witty. All through the series, one could see them hauling cannon after cannon onto the stage. This was the movie where they finally fired them off. It was also the epilogue rounding out the various character arcs. I found it very satisfying.

    I can seriously suspend disbelief, but the end of Infinity War had its Doctor Evil moment when Thanos wiped out half of life in the galaxy. That set Earth back to the mid-1960s. Thanos wasn’t even close to solving his “too many sentient beings” problem. Surely his quest wasn’t for 50 years of peace and quiet followed by another search for another set of infinity stones and a new gauntlet. Then again, maybe that was Disney-Marvel’s plan for the sequel.

  39. I’ll mostly remember the Avengers series as the boring thing that Joss Whedon got up to for years instead of writing wonderful long form stories for TV.

  40. I want to see it again… eventually. I want to go through the whole saga again, but I need some time to let it simmer in the back of my head, first. Kind of like I want to replay all the Kingdom Hearts games… just not for a year or two.

    I was definitely overwhelmed by the once-in-a-lifetimeness of it in the theater, though. The overly long studio logo actually rather forcibly recalled all at once seeing each one of these movies in a theater, not to mention being in Hall H when the first Iron Man was previewed at SDCC. The weight of that accumulated and shared experience, the connection with so many other people who were experiencing the same thing, bowled me over. Even if the movie had been an unwatchable mess, that moment would still have been something remarkable.

  41. I compare it to going to a three day family reunion where it’s nice to see everyone but you are glad to leave and will not attend again. High point for me was seeing Jarvis. Low point was seeing Natasha taking dictation while the boys had their strategy meeting.

  42. Upcoming Black Widow film is almost certainly an origin story for Natasha. Florence Pugh (from Little Drummer Girl among other things) has been cast in an undetermined role. Rumor is that she’s playing either an antagonist or the character who once took over the Black Widow role in the comics.

    Florence Pugh as the “new” Black Widow makes my ears perk up, if that’s true.

  43. It’s amazing what Feige and company have achieved here. Yesterday, at a family get together, I talked with two of my older sisters about Endgame. They are both at least ten years older than me, were never comic book fans, and LOVE the MCU films. Before last night, I never knew they had seen all the films.

    Feige and company (Victoria Allonso has also been a producer on all the films) have crafted a series of 22 films that appeal to both current and past comic fans as well as plenty of people who never read any. I would have never thought this possible just a few years ago.

  44. Everyone keeps talking about Nat being “fridged”, but in my opinion that’s a gross misunderstanding of the phrase. It’s meant to describe the death of a female character for NO OTHER REASON than to inspire her (usually male, however c.f. Tara, BTVS) partner to take some sort of action they, in theory, wouldn’t have taken otherwise (turning evil, trying to destroy the world, etc). By that definition, Peter Parker’s death in Infinity War was the living definition of fridging: he died so Tony Stark would feel bad. Well, so we’d all feel bad, but that’s not the point.

    What I am hearing people say is that there can never be a real, actual, genuine, plot-driven reason for a woman to die. Because that is how I perceived Black Widow’s death — she had already given the last five years of her life to keeping things running, and she was bound and determined to make sure Clint got his life back. She had red in her ledger, debts she needed to clear. She wasn’t hit by a random bullet, or dusted for the sake of the shock value. She chose to sacrifice herself for those she loved. And it drove home the point of how high the stakes were, as if we needed more reminding.

    And who else could they have sent? The only way to gain the soul stone was the sacrifice of someone you loved. Bucky and Cap? But Cap had his own specialized task. (“Hail Hydra”, oh my dear god, BEST LINE EVER.) One of them had to die. If it had been Clint, would he then have been fridged? Why does the trope of Man Dying To Save The Woman He Loves (as a friend) trump Woman Dying To Save The Man She Loves (as a friend)? I kind of dig the way they flipped the script like that.

    I mean, we can’t insist that from now on only men die in movies, never women, can we? Especially since in point of fact men also get fridged. (Freeform’s Cloak and Dagger literally stuffed a dead boyfriend into a fridge.)

    Dismissing Nat’s death as fridging negates the character’s sacrifice. Tony made a comparable sacrifice, was he fridged? They could have written it so that he survived in the end, but the plot dictated a noble death (and the end of Robert Downey Jr’s contract), the same way Nat’s death was a noble death.

    Let her die with dignity. Let her clear the red from her ledger. It was honestly the only way.

  45. I think the truly great thing about this film is, as you said, that it successfully brings to a close a 22 film cycle in a coherent and satisfying way. The sheer scope of what they have done with these films is insane. Bringing things full circle with that last line from Iron Man was a great touch. It certainly wasn’t perfect and as with Infinity War I didn’t like what they did with the Guardians of the Galaxy, but it was on the whole entertaining and deeply satisfying.

  46. To tweak your statement of being one of three people in the world not to see it yet, count me as the 4th, as I don’t intend to see it. Marvel or DC oriented movies have never been my bag (last super hero movie I saw 1st run was Spiderman with Toby McGuire). But I can understand how fan-boy or fan-girl people can get for these movies.

    A good question to ask is, will Hollywood start running out of steam with the super-hero genre, now that this particular series has (allegedly) ended?

  47. I’m one of the 3 people! I’ll likely watch it when it comes to my video steaming service.

  48. I’m a reluctant one of the three. My medical problems have advanced to the point I just cannot sit through a movie of that length anymore (oh, for an intermission) so I’ll catch it on home release later. I am, however, 100% caught up with all the spoilers though. Knowing the story in advance and looking forward to seeing how it is told is my jam anyway.

  49. I thought it was good.

    I didnt like them berating Back to the Future for being not how time travel works, and then running a back to the future plot. Whd you dump on a great movie for being stupid, then borrow its plot?

    They dont seem to know how to handle someone as strong as Capt Marvel. So they had to make her go away for most of the movie. She can literally punch through a space ship, she would have punched through thanos.

    Reminds me of Gandalf bailing in the leadup to the battle for helms deep. Just so there can be more tension, before showing up just before the good guys lose everything.

    Once they decided to go for the stones, they should have paged her so she could help, be on standby, when they came back with the stones. Once they had all the stones in one spot, that is far more dangerous than anything she was dealing with.

    Look, i get it, you wanted thanos in the final fight, so you cue him in by saying furure Nebula’s builtin wifi would sync to past nebula, and try to sync files??? Either she requires no password and anyone can access her, or she never changed her password, even after she turned on her father, which is weird.

    Thanos has remote root access and she never turned it off???

    So if they fought and killed thanos from before the snap, did the snap not happen? All this screentime about not creating new timelines, swipe the stones, use them, and then bring them back just where they came from, and then, whoopsie, pre-snap thanos comes into the future and is dusted?

    If cap goes back and stays in the 1940’s, does he spend his life in a cave to avoid creating new timelines? Sooo much time spent talking about not making new timelines, and then they do exactly that everywhere, and with no penalties.

    The final fight against thanos started with cap, ironman, and thor team uo against thanos. Thanos with zero infinity stones. Thanos with no powers. And yet, thanos is able to beat them??? And somehow it morphed into each good guy taking their turn to fight thanos one-on-one? I get the goal they were shooting for, but the “thanos always has just enough hitpoints to survive the latest attack and counterattack stronger than before” was never really setup anywhere.

    Shouldnt the first timetravel have been for antman to get more pym particles from before the snap? Granted, it would remove the tension of “we each have one jump to the past and one to get back here” tension, but would have made a lot more sense. They sent him back a few times for testing, just one more fir a milk run.

  50. “What I am hearing people say is that there can never be a real, actual, genuine, plot-driven reason for a woman to die. ”
    I hear something quite different: that bumping Natasha off is more of the tired old trope, female ex-villain redeems self in death (unless she gets extra added redemption through the love of a good man – yuck). In short: she matters less than a man.

  51. I hadn’t thought about not watching Endgame again because I did really enjoy it (despite the abyss-sized time-travel plot holes). My number one reason for letting this be one of those movies I only watch once: I don’t want to have to watch Infinity War ever again.

  52. I guess I’m one of the 3 who haven’t seen it. Meh. After a few, the Marvel movies all seemed to be fairly cookie-cutter, so I stopped bothering with them. I’ll catch this one on my next international flight I guess. Maybe.

  53. I’m going to go with the argument that Black Widow made a real sacrifice that needs to be respected…and I doubt she would have made that choice for anyone else for anyone but Hawkeye: “Cap it’s been an honor serving with you; bye bye.”

    Considering that this cycle has always mostly been the Steve & Tony show the choices made were logical.

    Time travel stories generally irritate me but I decided not to dwell on it too much.

    If I didn’t have a friend that I need to see this flick with I might also decide not to view it again in the immediate future.

  54. I guess this makes me #4 to have not seen it. I probably will, just have to find the time. I thought the first Avengers movie was great, but they started going down after that. I really started losing steam for the MCU after Winter Soldier but may eventually go back to them all.

  55. As a lifelong Marvel fan, I readily admit that this film is wall-to-wall fan service and I AM HERE FOR IT. I was impressed by how Endgame is not really a punchy-punchy movie until the end: most of the film are solid emotional beats, in some cases closing emotional arcs over the course of many movies (Tony and his father: Iron Man 2, Civil War; Cap and Peggy: Cap 1, Cap 2, Civil War, Agent Carter, etc.) Some of the call-backs were clever one-liners, others were so emotional they brought tears to my eyes. I can understand why somebody might not gel with this movie, but many of the folks in my social circles (real and online) have seen it multiple times or plan to.

    Narratively, I think it’s strong than Infinity War. I also think it’s a Daffy Duck Gasoline Trick (“I can only do it ONCE.”) It features plenty of Hitchcock ‘fridge moments’, things that you’re not sure if they make sense hours after you’ve seen the movie. Even so, I enjoyed it immensely and feel that it did what it set out to do and did it well. Was I entertained? Plenty. I can recognize that some elements in the film could be potentially problematic and yet still entertaining and powerful for some audiences. I’ve seen people who found the A-Force sequence (all the female heroines lining up) to be blatant, ey-rolling pandering at the same time as some fans considered it an empowering highlight. And it can be both. Thor having PTSD and being used for comic relief can be a regression or silly, but can also be (as one commenter elsewhere found it) a moment where Mjolnir tells Thor “Your Depression Is Lying To You.” I can enjoy these moments while recognizing some folks didn’t.

    Endgame is an achievement that, like the Lord of the Rings movies and Harry Potter movies, signify an achievement that is unlikely to be repeated any time soon. That doesn’t make it necessarily worthy of praise on that merit alone, but thankfully in all three cases, they are rewarding entertainment beyond their cinematic significance.

  56. Topic Author: Here is my review of a thing, and a place for people to discuss the thing.

    Internet Rando: I have never seen the thing or any of its related things and I don’t plan to!

    I will never understand the urge to do this.

  57. I was hoping that Hawkeye would talk Red Skull out of sacrificing anybody (especially my favorite Avenger!) by saying. OK, I’ve *already* lost the people I value most to get to this point, so cough up.

  58. Marshall: ” Is any “Character theoretically could have done a thing that they did not do” a plot hole?”

    If the-thing-they-did-not-do is waaaaaay easier than the thing they did, then its a plot hole. That the fellowship didnt take eagles directly to mordor is a plothole.

    Stories, at least thus far, are exercises in scarcity. Author establishes rules that impose limits on characters who then have to figure out how to accomplish their goals within those rules/limits.

    Anything that eliminates scarcity or makes the rules moot, is often hobbled in some way by the author to maintain scarcity. But some hobbling is explained better than others.

    Captain Marvel demonstrates a power level on par with superman. She appears to be practically invulnerable to the biggest weapons, and she can punch a whole through a ship. She removes almost all limitations on what the avengers can accomplish in a fight. So they made her go away. They didnt explain it very well. And when they started planning the time heist they should have contacted her to be on site, since having all the infinity stones together is extremely dangerous. Nothing she was doing was more important than protecting stones capable of destroying the entire universe.

    She should have been around to immediately kill thanos when he jumps in from the past. Problem solved.

    But easily solved problems tend to make boring stories.

    So, that she wasnt around but her absence wasnt sufficiently explained, that is a plot hole.

    “The eagles were busy” doesnt really cut it.

  59. I feel Black Widow’s sacrifice was not them fridging her but making it Clint would have been fridging him. Nat has been a larger part of the movies for us as an audience. Getting the soul stone requires a sacrifice and losing her is a lot more more of a sacrifice than losing Clint would have been.

    Overall I found the movie immensely emotionally satisfying.

  60. So, ah, for someone who has not seen any of the movies leading up to this one, is there a short summary of the story anywhere, like a novelization, that you can recommend? Or, perhaps, a series of comic books?

    Yeah, I’m dinosaur.

  61. I am with the handful of others here who praised the film. My son and I saw it for the second time yesterday (we went opening weekend as well) and we were both moved at this second viewing more than we had been in our first. There is so much going on – the second viewing allowed greater appreciation of what was done. We talked afterwards about what an impossible task the filmmakers had – everyone knew going into the theater that everything was going to be set aright somehow – but they managed to craft a film that still had suspense, humor, and tragedy. (FWIW, count me in the camp that holds that Black Widow’s sacrifice was not fridging, though she was one of my favorite characters, and my heart sank when she was gone – it made perfect sense in the context of her story arc since we first met her many films ago.) I particularly liked how they spent a good deal of time at the beginning showing us how the characters we have come to know over a score-plus films processed the Snap, and the five years post-Snap before Ant Man gave everyone hope.

    I also want to make the same comment @MaximumBob made – what is it that compels people who have not seen a film to log onto the comments of a piece about the film to proclaim that they haven’t seen it? Can you imagine being in a bar and hearing a group of people discussing a book, and wandering into the conversation and saying, I’ve never read that! And a call out, if that’s the word, to @Gary Willis, who for some reason decided to throw a GoT spoiler in his comment – thanks for that. The internet is a weird place. . .)

  62. @ Jim G. – exactly! That is why Natasha dying is even more annoying. Clint already fulfilled the requirements stated by Red Skull. I even leaned over to my brother in the theater & said the same thing during the scene.

    I didn’t mind the idea of Steve staying in the past to live with Peggy, but based on the movie’s rules of time travel & alternate timelines (Nebula being able to kill her younger self & still live, Thanos from the past being able to die in the present, but the snap still happening), I did mind the fuck out of us getting an old man Steve in ‘our’ timeline at the end. No only am I supposed to buy that he didn’t clue Peggy into the Hydra ‘problem’ nor ever go out as Captain America again, but he was totally cool with not rescuing Bucky?!? Five seconds after their dance ended, Peggy would have been on the phone with the Howling Commandos setting up a rescue operation, creating an alternate universe/time line, therefore making it impossible for the old man Steve scene to ever happen…

    The power shot of the female heroes both made me happy and pissed off. It was a powerful moment, but it also hit home that this was it – these are the only female heroes in this universe right now & they fit in one shot. Ugh.

    I like the idea of them not doing a reset, but if they are going to go that route, they needed to focus more on the consequences of the snap and what exactly Bruce was ‘wishing’ for. There would have been A LOT of additional deaths from the snap – not just from the numerous and various accidents that must have happened when drivers, train engineers, aircraft pilots, surgeons in mid surgery, etc disappeared, but there would have been many suicides over the 5 years as well. Did Bruce just bring back the snapped people or did he bring everyone back who would have been alive at the time of the snap, but died after it for one reason or another? And as was pointed out above, was everyone brought back to the exact location they were dusted or did he make sure to build in a ‘safety net’ for people who would be in a dangerous location/situation? It starts to hurt the brain very quickly once one starts to think about it…

    Final thought – I too don’t really care about seeing it again even though I will probably watch it once it hits a streaming service, but it doesn’t really make me want to watch the older movies again either. What it does succeed in doing for me is making me curious about the future of the verse. Like is the new Spider-Man before Infinity War or after Endgame? And if after Endgame, are they going to address the five year gap & the fact that not everyone in his class would have been snapped? And is Guardians III going to seriously accept that ‘our’ Gamora is dead & the Gamora currently in this timeline is a different person with different motivations now that her father is dead & the stones are not an issue?

  63. @ Jim G. – exactly! That is why Natasha dying is even more annoying. Clint already fulfilled the requirements stated by Red Skull. I even leaned over to my brother in the theater & said the same thing during the scene.

    I didn’t mind the idea of Steve staying in the past to live with Peggy, but based on the movie’s rules of time travel & alternate timelines (Nebula being able to kill her younger self & still live, Thanos from the past being able to die in the present, but the snap still happening), I did mind the fuck out of us getting an old man Steve in ‘our’ timeline at the end. No only am I supposed to buy that he didn’t clue Peggy into the Hydra ‘problem’ nor ever go out as Captain America again, but he was totally cool with not rescuing Bucky?!? Five seconds after their dance ended, Peggy would have been on the phone with the Howling Commandos setting up a rescue operation, creating an alternate universe/time line, therefore making it impossible for the old man Steve scene to ever happen…

    The power shot of the female heroes both made me happy and pissed off. It was a powerful moment, but it also hit home that this was it – these are the only female heroes in this universe right now & they fit in one shot. Ugh.

    I like the idea of them not doing a reset, but if they are going to go that route, they needed to focus more on the consequences of the snap and what exactly Bruce was ‘wishing’ for. There would have been A LOT of additional deaths from the snap – not just from the numerous and various accidents that must have happened when drivers, train engineers, aircraft pilots, surgeons in mid surgery, etc disappeared, but there would have been many suicides over the 5 years as well (plus riots and/or wars from power vacuums, disease/famine, etc.). Did Bruce just bring back the snapped people or did he bring everyone back who would have been alive at the time of the snap, but died after it for one reason or another? And as was pointed out above, was everyone brought back to the exact location they were dusted or did he make sure to build in a ‘safety net’ for people who would be in a dangerous location/situation? It starts to hurt the brain very quickly once one starts to think about it…

    Final thought – I too don’t really care about seeing it again even though I will probably watch it once it hits a streaming service, but it doesn’t really make me want to watch the older movies again either. What it does succeed in doing is making me curious about the future of the verse. Like is the new Spider-Man before Infinity War or after Endgame? And if after Endgame, are they going to address the five year gap & the fact that not everyone in his class would have been snapped? And is Guardians III going to seriously accept that ‘our’ Gamora is dead & the Gamora currently in this timeline is a different person with different motivations now that her father is dead & the stones are not an issue?

  64. Hank: “So, ah, for someone who has not seen any of the movies leading up to this one, is there a short summary of the story anywhere”

    I cant tell if thats a joke or not.

    Minimum list of movies to watch before watching endgame: gaurdians of the galaxy 1& 2, and “infinity war”.

    That gives all the thanos backstory.

    Dr Strange movie, “Thor The Dark World”, and Avengers from 2012 will give the backstory for some of the main plot points in Endgame.

  65. I loved it. I’m not denying that any of the plot holes existed, but the way I interact with fiction is to suspend disbelief almost immediately and almost completely and to fill in the gaps so thoroughly I don’t always even notice they’re there. So if it seems like something simpler should be possible but the story doesn’t dwell on it, I more or less automatically assume there’s some reason it’s not possible.

    There were a bunch of moments I really liked, and the whole thing was entertaining and kept my attention. The fight scenes were tight and not boring, which is a big thing for me – I get bored quickly with combat unless it’s every character doing their cool special thing or there’s lots of witty banter. But the biggest thing for me was the feeling of satisfaction of completing such a long story that I’ve been following for ~10 years. It’s like the feeling of finishing a long series of novels, and it’s something you don’t get often in movies. I would love to see it done again.

  66. And now my brain has just supplied me with a vision of Red Skull asking Hawkeye “What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?”

  67. Hank: If you want to read a good comic, go read the original Infinity War comic by Jim Starlin & its Silver Surfer prequel, Thanos Reborn. And then watch the 2012 Avengers directed by Whedon, in which Thanos smiles at the line, “court Death.”

    that’s the origin story. The Russo brothers Thanos is just a plot device.

  68. I thought that the ending for Steve Rogers was a throw-away and opened an enormous number of questions. They had given Tony Stark the heroic death-in-battle and Natasha Romanov the great-sacrifice-for-love-and-friendship, so they needed another something for Steve Rogers. And what they chose was to send him back in time where he would let terrible things happen to be with Peggy (a woman he knew for only a couple of months)? This is the man who in Civil War was saying he can’t just watch a situation go south and not get involved, but he is fine with letting Hydra infiltrate SHIELD and torture Bucky? I can roll with all the other gaps but that one was just weird.

  69. “So, that she wasnt around but her absence wasnt sufficiently explained, that is a plot hole.”

    It was explained. She said she was going to be out of contact for a while, and she wasn’t around. She states pretty plainly that her priorities involve helping the hundreds of other planets in massive disarray from the snap. You can object to that, but that’s just you thinking she should have had different priorities. Which, that’s fine, but that’s your opinion, not a plot hole.

  70. @Jim G and @treebee: Clint didn’t *sacrifice* someone he loved, as a deliberate choice, a deliberate action. His family was killed by Thanos, and it didn’t happen on the planet where the soul stone was stored. (It seemed to me the death had to happen in that particular place for the exchange to work.) DId you want to see Clint throw one of his kids off that cliff?

    I can accept people having differing opinions on which trope they perceive as being in play…so long and they aren’t whining about fridging. Honestly, Nat’s death hit me way harder than Clint’s death would have. She died because she was worth MORE, not less, IMO. Her death held more significance.

    Also: re timey-wimey issues. According to the Russos, the quote is something like “it’s not like we didn’t have three years to think this through…” Steve lived a life with Peggy in an alternate timeline, since he couldn’t change his own past. And then when he “caught up” to the moment he left (time travelling the hard way, one second per second), poof, the alternate timeline healed up and he rejoined Time LIne Prime™. (Remember how the Ancient One explained to Bruce about her timeline splitting off.) We don’t actually KNOW what all he got up to over there in Alternate Timeline Land. Maybe he wiped out Hydra single-handedly. He married Peggy; anything is possible.

    Also also: the new Spider-man: Far From Home trailer is out. Mysterio is from an alternate universe.

    Behold, the birth of the Marvel Multiverse. (It’s what happens when you have two snappenings in a row, apparently. Tears holes in things.)

  71. @Hank Roberts: I searched YouTube for “summation of MCU movies” and the first one on the list that was up to Endgame (as opposed to Infinity War) was this:

    I haven’t watched it, but it has over 31,000 likes and less than 700 dislikes, so I’m guessing it’s worth watching.
    There’s also the Movie Spoiler page for a text summation of the Endgame movie (including a “cut to the chase” link that takes it all down to a few sentences):
    http://themoviespoiler.com/movies/avengers-endgame/
    You could also do that with each of the other 21 movies if you really just want text summations.

    @MaximumBob: I totally agree! I suppose some people feel the need to justify why they are “not like everyone else” who watched the movie, or something.

  72. Marshall: “She states pretty plainly that her priorities involve helping the hundreds of other planets.”

    Capt Marvel says that -before- antman even shows up and -before- the avengers come up with the time heist idea. She says that when thanos is dead, and as far as anyone knows thats the end of it, and they’re just mopping up messes in the universe. So might as well mop up what she calls home now.

    Once they figured out they could go back in time, the avengers had plenty of time to contact her.

    They are about to assemble the most dangerous thing in the universe, a thing that could destroy the whole universe, a thing that could undo the fate of half the universe, they repeatedly say they are short on help, and they dont call in their biggest gun???

    No, they never explain why they didnt bring her in.

  73. Before yesterday, I would’ve agreed completely that this was a movie only worth watching once. Then a friend who hadn’t seen it asked me to go with him and I agreed. And once I wasn’t trying desperately to keep up with the firehose of plot aimed at me, I found it to be an incredibly enjoyable experience. They really did a ton of character work in this movie, even with Black Widow, who has been handled terribly over the course of the entire arc. Her end wasn’t really satisfying because it was just too late to course-correct properly, but this movie still did better by her than pretty much all of the other movies to date. And once I knew the cringe-humor around Thor’s PTSD was coming, I could sit back and appreciate how the jokes were really about how incredibly uncomfortable the rest of the Avengers were with him losing it so completely, and how they couldn’t handle him being anything less than heroic. And I still cried when all the portals opened and again when Tony died.

  74. @Leslie There was something about the way Red Skull phrased the sacrifice line in Endgame that made me go ‘Hey, wait a minute’ – I wish I could remember exactly what he said, but it came across to me as Clint’s loss fulfilling the requirements for getting the Soul Stone & Thanos getting it wrong. Which would have been a nice twist.

  75. My very short summary is: crowded. The move is very crowded. Not surprisingly, Scalzi said it much better and with supporting detail.

    Full thumb’s up for everything @Teresa Boruff wrote. The Power Girls shot being awesome and anger-inducing at the same time. The stupidity of Nat’s death, which is what I disliked the most. The biggest, most gaping plot holes regarding Thanos and Nebula. Didn’t like any of that. Wondering how you suddenly double the universe’s population and how does the infrastructure and food supply keep up. I further add my unhappiness that Nat didn’t get a funeral or even much recognition for her sacrifice.

    Things I did like: that the Russos took some screen minutes to develop Nebula. That the successfully switched Tony’s and Steve’s outlooks; not only did Tony sacrifice himself and Steve got something for himself, but that it was credible that they did so.

    And while I didn’t love the movie, I’m impressed that they pulled it off at all.

    One final question: how do you return a Soul Stone?

  76. Xposted.* The comments were exciting to read. Thank you all. I haven’t read many reviews or discussion boards and this blog, and the commenters here, have become some of my favorites. When I think of 21/22 episodes, what I generally think about is a season on TV. Of course, this has been a decade, plus, and became a different kind of series. Kudos to all those involved.

    Aside from the initial Iron Man movie, when I think about this series, I do think about Josh’s involvement with the first Avengers movie. At the time, and apologies that I no longer remember the reference, I do remember that part of his wanting to be involved was disappointment with his work on the script for the first X-men movie. I was disappointed too. That’s a different story. Or, maybe not.

    Taking us back in time. In the Avengers, there’s a comic series I never really followed before the movies. Because Wasp? The ability to make yourself smaller and sting? Thanks. Like FF and Sue the Invisible Girl, who can also create a force field to protect others? Not really on board. How about Storm who can control the weather? Or Jean Grey, who became Firebird? OK got so hungry, she ate a planet. Bad thing. Also, sacrificed herself, which the X-men movie series has never come to grips with.

    What Josh did with the first Avengers movie was create what became a Juggernaut, and in a sense, what became a formula for success. It’s about the individual stories and how people come together. The movie, whether you like it or don’t, is not anything we’ve seen done before. The jury may be out on the logistics, the details, and individual responses. On the public response?

    Mmmm. I think we know.

    (the airspeed of a unladed swallow is unknown, at least a far as I know.)

  77. I loved Iron Man 3 too. So there.

    Also I am so relieved that you say there really will be a Black Widow origin movie. Because I adore the character and would watch any amount of her.

  78. “Capt Marvel says that -before- antman even shows up and -before- the avengers come up with the time heist idea.”

    Yes. And she also says she’s going to be in deep space and out of contact. They can’t call her in.

  79. “she also says she’s going to be in deep space and out of contact. They can’t call her in.”

    if she was out of contact, then the movie says she was out of contact the morning of the time heist, but she was in contact and PHYSICALLY PRESENT ON EARTH by that afternoon.

    Out of contact for… weeks? Out of contact for the weeks or mobths it took to build the time machine. Out of contact the minute before the time heist. But in contact and on earth maybe 30 minutes later??? That is some conveniently timed out of contactedness.

  80. Second plot hole: Strange says he saw 14 million possible futures, and the only one we win is the one where stark sacrifices his life?? All it would take is for the time machine construction to hit a snag, be delayed by a single day, and Marvel would have been back in contact, and on earth, next to the time machine when they brought the stones back.

    Of the 14 million variations, there are none where they were delayed a day or two, Marvel is there to protect the stones, and she and thor kill thanos the moment he shows up? And tony lives?

    The term here is called “plot on rails”.

    The gm had decided the level 20 character needed to go, and so nothing the players did, not even 14 million variations of the game, would change that outcome.

    I liked the movie. I liked the characters in the movie. I liked seeing people struggling with their losses. I liked seeing thor in ptsd/denial. I liked seeing the characters show something other than what they have been in every movie: confident, all powerful. I liked seeing tony as a father. I liked seeing Hawkeye lose his way and come back. Character-wise its one of the more dimensional avenger movies there are.

    But the plot only works if you dont look too closely. Its still one of my favorite avenger movies. But its a superhero movie with a superhero ot, and those kinds of plots dont usually hold up to close scrutiny. Its fine. Its kinda expected.

    To quote a very wise man: “the city is flying, we’re fighting an army of robots, and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense”

    Doesnt mean we can enjoy it. Doesnt make any sense if you look too closely. But thats what suspension of disbelief is about. You look at the screen or the page of the book and say “do me, baby” and let the story have its way with you.

    Afterwards, we can talk about plot holes without taking away from the experience. Or at least, we should be able to do that.

  81. Follow-up thoughts in no particular order.

    1) The new Spider-man: Far From Home trailer is out and it is Endgame-spoilertastic. It is also really good. I think Beck is a lying liar who tells big-ass lies, but I do believe the multiverse is now a thing. It is, after all, a plot point of Endgame, and I assume it will be a major part of Phase IV (and I’m guessing this will give us Kang the Conqueror, now that time travel and multiverses are a thing).

    2) Captain Marvel was under-utilized, yes. That is not a plot-hole. There is an in-text explanation for her lack of presence; thinking it’s a weak excuse doesn’t make it a plot-hole, just a story beat that someone didn’t like Honestly, I expected Carol to get taken out much easier than she did, since her powers derive directly from one of the Infinity Stones, but obviously that didn’t play out the same. Captain Marvel and Black Panther both suffered the same problem, IMHO: Marvel and the Russos didn’t expect their films to be two of the biggest in the Marvel library. They have stated that if they had it to do over again, they wouldn’t have done both films at once…I suspect this is one reason why.

    3) You can consider the Eagles in LotR a plot hole, but there’s a lot of text devoted to why they are not, generally: https://www.tor.com/2016/12/21/tolkien-eagles-manwes-special-ops/

    4) Endgame is the first Marvel movie where there were so many calbacks and references that there are finally videos that, when they say ‘X easter eggs you missed!’, they actually have some I actually did miss (Instead of the typical click-baity ‘Captain America has an ‘A’ on his forehead, just like the comics!’).

  82. “But in contact and on earth maybe 30 minutes later??? That is some conveniently timed out of contactedness.”

    Yeah, it could only work if there was someone with extranormal means who was explicitly communicating and coordinating with people to get to that location, who had foreknowledge of how it was supposed to go and who needed to be there, and literally didn’t exist until the time heist was complete. Of course, that’s so very specific, it’s pretty Strange to think about.

  83. Strange saw 14 million possible futures and not a single one where antman showed up a bit earlier so tge idea of the time heist came up while carol was around and she would stay?

    14 milloon possibilities and not one where someone asked her to check in once in a while?

    14 million possibilities and not one where the rat didnt dance on the vans keyboard earlier or later enough so that carol was around?

    Strange could have conjured paper and pen and written a note to carol to be opened just in time to tell her to be present for the time machine, put it in an envelope and given it to tony.

    14 million possibilities and he couldnt figure out a single way for tony not to die when his salvation is the difference of one character showing up a few minutes earlier????

  84. Uh, just because the author “explains” something in a story doesnt neccessarily make it less of a plothole.

    Jeff Goldblum spent quite a bit of time explaining how they were going to upload a virus to the mothership from his macintosh. Doesnt make it any less silly. Doesnt make the illogic of the thing go away. Doesnt make it any less of a plot hole.

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