Your Unabashed Support of Trump Will Embarrass Your Bloodline for Generations
Posted on September 2, 2020 Posted by Athena Scalzi 120 Comments
Where I live, Trump flags and signs are extremely common, to the point where it’s almost weird to see a Biden sign. The other day, however, I saw a new kind of Trump flag I’ve never seen before, but I saw two in the same day and thought it was so incredibly bizarre I just had to share.
Here’s that flag, which you can buy for $50:
And it really got me thinking about how wildly fanatic some people are, which we’ve known for a while now, but I mean it really is wild how people just casually fly flags or have merch like this for a presidential candidate. Yes, I know about yard signs and bumper stickers and t-shirts. But there is the usual level of partisan cheerleading, and then there’s this. What a truly bizarre thing to do, in my opinion.
Anyways, it also led me to think about how years from now, maybe twenty, fifty, even a hundred years in the future, people will look back at photos of crowds of people wearing MAGA hats and the pictures of people flying Trump 2020 flags, and regard them with the same embarrassment and disdain we feel for segregationists when we look back at the 1960s, or the way we feel about flat Earthers. People in my generation talk about how horrified they are to think their grandpappy was in the KKK; it’s something you don’t bring up because it’s shameful, and I’m sure that’s how people will view Trump supporters in the future.
Not that they don’t do it now, obviously. There are plenty of people who are disappointed and angry with their own family members for voting for Trump, or people who disagree with their grandparents’ outdated views. However, there is also a truly unbelievable amount of people my age and even younger that fully support Trump in this unabashed way that we usually only think Boomers are capable of.
Those are the people I’m talking about whose grandkids will look at them with embarrassment. I’m not talking about the people my age who already see their grandparents that way, but the generations to come, the kids that don’t exist yet that will look back into our window of history and think, “How did this happen? Who supported this monster? How was this possible?” We look back at the 1960s and think, “Who the hell was against MLK? Who could’ve possibly been against equal rights?” And yet, we see rampant anti-BLM people every single day.
I’m sure that some day in the near future, those goddamn red baseball hats will be viewed the same way we view Klansman hoods, and the Iron Cross. Supporting Trump today is embarrassing, but it will continue to be a stain on your bloodline for years to come.
Anyways, remember to vote! And have a great day!
-AMS
Quick note:
Obviously, the Mallet is out. Play nice with each other, please.
This will help you understand the Trump supporter:
Trump supporters have been conditioned by Right-Wing media for decades that the utter destruction of America is just days away. They live in constant fear.
Along comes Donald Trump and they are convinced he is the savior they’ve been praying for. They have whole-hardheartedly bought into the fiction that he is a self-made billionaire who gave up a successful TV show and a lavish lifestyle to rescue America from atheists who want to outlaw the Christian faith, liberals who want to control your every thought, and corrupt politicians who have abandoned them.
Their Religious leaders, who see Trump as an open door into political power, have told them Trump was sent by God. For this reason alone you cannot tell a Trump supporter any facts otherwise. Every criticism of Trump is either fake, or “no big deal.” For Trump to be wrong, God has to be wrong. God and Fox News.
The scary question is: What happens when the only man, in their eyes, who can save America loses and then says the election was a fraud? How far will they go? Look at Kyle Rittenhouse whose parents filled him so full of hate, he was eager to cross state lines and kill strangers. Come November, we may have 500,000 Kyle’s in the street shooting anyone who stands in the way or removing Trump from office.
I *hope* you are right. The long arc of history only bends toward justice through work. I dread the idea that people such as these are not seen as harbringers, heroes and and early adopters of an outright loud and proud dark, white nationalist state that is still called America…but is not the America we know and love.
FWIW, most Americans are still fiercely anti-MLK today–or at least fiercely opposed to the things he actually wanted, like UBI.
That flag is almost comically stupid. Something I’d expect to see on The Onion. You’re absolutely correct. Unless we are turned into some sort of North Korean style dictatorship where worship for the “dear leader” is required at gun point then sooner or later (hopefully sooner), Trump and his kleptocratic ideas will be thrown into the dust bin of history. Along with that flag. Don’t know how anyone can follow a cult of a man who is dumber than a box of rocks.
That one’s just…
Grotesque.
It’s the only word I can think of that fits.
If I could add to what Shadiya said – this is *also* why things like Q-Anon are becoming more prevalent, and one feeds right into the other in a vicious cycle. I’m seeing people I know and have always respected getting sucked into that, and it’s frightening and sad – and Trump just eggs it on.
I said something like this to my wife the other day. Very well said!
I hope you’re right. But I’m not as optimistic as I’d like to be. I look at the energy that ridiculous flag represents and then I think about all those Americans who won’t even bother to vote, and I worry. The nutjobs are on the march, with powerful backup in the White House and the rightwing media apparatus.
History demonstrates that you don’t need a majority to overthrow democracies. You just need a deeply committed minority that is willing to do whatever it takes to seize control. America’s got that now. The decent majority need to stand up and stop them.
I’m uncomfortable with the Iron Cross being compared so directly to the KKK’s hood. The nation many of the Iron Cross recipients fought for might be rightly reviled, and the symbol itself might’ve been co-opted by white supremacists, but an award for extreme valour is still an award for extreme valour.
It won’t be a stain, because their descendants will act like Germans did in the 80s (when I was stationed there): no one had pics of grandpa with a swastika armband despite the statistical certainty that many I talked to had such skeletons in the closet.
They’ll burn the memorabilia, photos, hats, and letters and pretend not to understand the issue whenever it gets brought up.
“And it really got me thinking about how wildly fanatic some people are, which we’ve known for a while now, but I mean it really is wild how people just casually fly flags or have merch like this for a presidential candidate.”
To paraphrase a person much smarter than myself, the US was founded on hustling, the majority of Americans are mindless trash, living empty, stupid lives, obsessed with money and violence. The current occupant of the White House embodies these lofty ideals. He’s representative not only of the deepest aspirations of his base, but the very foundations of our society.
What could be more fitting than the faithful showing their adoration for Dear Leader – a consummate hustler who has never made an honest dollar – by spending money they don’t have on piles of worthless consumer goods? If you can bring yourself to look past the mountains of COVID-19 corpses and the decimated economy, you may gain an appreciation of Trump’s time in the White House as living, real-time satire.
I suspect that Kyle Rittenhouse would not be ashamed to have KKK in his family tree. And he is not alone.
I wonder if the nice people at Wargaming.net know that 45 is stealing (and subsequently ruining) their art for that … thing.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRt9cWfWF1Lc5vjZw3bzjfOc-NOhXUZRPV2ww&usqp=CAU
The military imagery is particularly bizarre considering the shameful treatment of present and former military personnel by this administration.
An excellent piece of writing, Athena. It makes me happy to know that your generation has coherent spokespeople.
/s/ From someone who’s a year or so older than your Dad.
Another thing about the people who fly this flag and support this moron: yes, indeed, they fall for the crap put out by right-wing fear media and Fox News; but how in the living HELL do they not ever think to ask for any kind of evidence behind his bullshit assertions?
Maybe I;m odd because I’m and engineer by trade and scientist by inclination, and when somebody says “x is happening” my first response is always: “show me”.
If you can’t show me, preferably in a reproducible way, or provide documented evidence, (preferably peer-reviewed, from a double-blind study if medical science) , then your assertion did not happen. Period.
There’s plenty of neofascist art supporting Trump. Jon McNaughton is the best-known artist, but there are plenty of others. The flag you posted is fairly typical.
One of the more popular tropes is to make Trump into the Emperor of Mankind from Warhammer 40K. If you don’t know that one, imagine Trump in a ludicrously oversized suit of golden armor, holding a gigantic sword and with a halo over his head, striding forward to battle the Chaos with a look of steely determination. The picture now in your head doesn’t come close to the ridiculousness.
Really and for generations? Let me ask you. Do you know all the political opinions of all your ancestors going back generations? I appreciate that you have strong opinions and that is good but I wonder what is your target audience. Is it a proclamation and therefore targeted to those who totally agree or is it to convince independents? If it is to influence independents then I think starting off with the apocalyptic argument would be counterproductive. If the aim was to get clicks then it worked because I clicked on it.
Athena, I am so glad to hear people your age saying these things! I’m just appalled (also living in a heavy Trump area) by seeing things like this, and having the Proud Boys openly recruiting in my area just makes me sick to my stomach.
Meanwhile, my husband has dusted off all of his non-Trump red caps and is wearing them as a protest in order to take back the red.
One last amusing thing. The local “Back the Blue” rally was organized by a woman who…kind of has a reputation for not being the most stable of persons. Her sister had organized a 4th of July parade in their small town after the official one was cancelled. Now the sister is organizing a “Freedom Cruise” in September. We’re theorizing that these two women are now feeding on the energy from being the center of attention (sigh). On the other hand, I’ve sure gotten to know some of the local liberals I didn’t know about through Facebook as a result of all this BS.
I keep thinking: there are people across Canada looking for a Trump-alike of their own to hook their political trailer to. Who are not considering these questions you ask, because they plan to make sure their grandkids believe their version of history over the truth when the time comes.
They’ll still be Wrong. But that’s their plan.
The phrase “Black Lives Matter” is good and perfectly acceptable. However, I think you need to do a deep dive into the group BLM and re-evaluate which group history will compare to the KKK.
I live in Vermont. A house down the street from me flies that flag. It’s somehow even more awful in person. The kind of fervor and open vicious hatred it takes to display things like that is something we’re going to be uprooting from American life for a very, very long time.
I also have ancestors who enslaved people and I am happy to shout to the whole world that, despite being directly responsible for my existence, they were also profoundly terrible human beings. I would hope others are willing to do the same for their families.
I can’t help but think Freud would have a field day with this, just from the position of the tank barrel and the hand wrapped around the rifle barrel alone.
Steve, is the “group BLM” in the same dark-shadows tainted, basement-dwelling, Q-fingered category as the “group Antifa”?
Cuz, yanno, I was trying to find their address to send them a donation and there wasn’t one. They don’t have, like, an office. So I went onto the IRS website to see if I could find their EIN, and apparently they’re not registered there, either.
If you know how to reach ’em, could you put me in touch? I wanna send fanmail.
(this might get me malleted… if so, it was worth it…)
uleaguehub and Steve:
I have a strong suspicion this conversation will not lead to anywhere fruitful, so yes, let’s go ahead and table it, please.
Doug:
She does in fact know across generations, in part because she has a famous ancestor whose last name was Booth. Spoiler: He’s an embarrassment to his bloodline.
Another thing to understand about the younger folks who support Trump is that many of them are doing it “ironically” (or “for the lulz” as the 4/8/whatever-channers say). They think it’s a big joke. Trump is just another meme to them. They know Trump is terrible, but they support him anyway, specifically because he is terrible.
Of course, support for Trump is still support for Trump, one way or the other, whether it’s ironic or earnest. It’s still horrible.
Here is an article on Medium from 2017 that is a good starting point for understanding this, which I found via a Wil Wheaton tweet from around the same time.
And yeah, the MAGA hat is essentially the modern equivalent to the Nazi swastika armband.
“That only Boomers are capable of”… HUH???
I’m a Boomer, and proud of it. When I was in college, “the Establishment” was afraid of us. We were hippies, we smoked grass, we marched in the streets for civil rights and against the war in Vietnam. We listened to Phil Ochs, Pete Seeger, Joan Baez, the Jefferson Airplane, and the Grateful Dead. I did my share of marching in the streets myself. Although I wasn’t at Woodstock, I was part of the Woodstock Nation, and still am.
I’m also proud of certain things my ancestors did. On my mother’s side, I’m descended from Samuel Adams, who among other things threw tea into Boston harbor (his cousin John helped Jefferson write the Declaration of Independence). Also from Jonathan Blanchard, a fiery leader of the Abolitionists. For several years prior to the Civil War, he operated a station on the Underground Railroad. I like to think that if ol’ Sam had met Trump, he’d have tossed him into the harbor along with the tea.
I still stand for a lot of the things my forebears stood for, and for most of what I stood for back when I was a student radical. I know some of my contemporaries sold out to the Establishment, but I didn’t, and there are an awful lot of Boomers like me.
Clear ether!
Jeanne Jackson
As you wish, oh gracious host.
Hello Athena, here in the UK we’re on the outside looking in and as we’re not Americans we don’t understand the politics as well as the natives. The problem is that good people (such as your neighbours) will make a choice, and most likely a well informed choice but one that will be of the most benefit to themselves and what they believe in and perhaps not for bigger picture.
And no matter how well you argue the alternative they will stick with that choice.
I really like your country, we read your books, we play your music, we watch your films and TV shows and you’ve led the way to the moon.
But I think your country is in danger of making the same mistake Germany did in 1932
We have people near us (our actual neighbors are cattle) with Trump flags, they always make me feel uncomfortable and hope for the day Trump is gone.
I’m a Boomer and I thought the worse POTUS I would ever see was Nixon. JFC was I ever wrong. I don’t know how people 50 yrs from now are going to see this but the way I see it NOW is that this is THE most important election in my lifetime because our country is in danger of being destroyed by this man and his enablers. They must all be voted out.
I’ve a notion the outer limit of your time-of-shame, 100 years, is closest to the mark, though even that may be a conservative estimate (I am writing as a White Southerner whose beloved grandmother referred to the Civil War “The War Of Northern Aggression”). We all thought the Birchers and their ilk were dispersed in shame, and now they have taken over the GOP. This illness in our body politic will be with us a long, long time. And don’t forget, there is nothing these fellow citizens thrive on more than perceived persecution, and if the Dear Leader loses in November, they will definitely see themselves as persecuted (because elections to them are not about a peaceful transfer of power), and they will be wailing and gnashing their teeth for many years to come.
On the OTT aspect of the flag — yes, the image laughable, but you should track down some of the stuff promoting Obama’s campaign in 2008. The pro-Obama items were certainly more to my taste, and aligned with my political sentiments, but objectively some of it was pretty out there as well….
Is it supposed to be a modern take of the Battle of the Five Armies? The most realistic thing in the picture is the Eagle firing a machine gun. Made my jaw drop.
Q: what is second-worst possible outcome for GOP?
A: Trump (legitimately) wins election…
four more years of Krazy (K as in KKK)…
few will vote GOP in ’24…
not when there’s mass graves in city parks & millions homeless ‘n hungry
Q: what is absolute worst possible outcome for GOP?
A: Trump steals election…
nobody votes GOP in ’24 or ’28 or ’32 or…
not until there is a new generation of naive voters in 2044 never saw Trump’s Treason with their own eyes…
…which is basis for my elevator pitch to a guy I know at Netflix… it was for a mockumentary about the 2044 GOP comeback attempt, called “Fat, Slim, None” with tagline “three chances of comeback”
sample dialogs from POV of 2094 (with banjo softly strumming):
“…now-a-days, finding a red ‘Make America Great Again’ hat in your dead grandpa’s stuff, cleaning up after his funeral, was not so much shocking as sad… the way it was for Southerners to be finding an old KKK hood and a photograph of grampa smiling with a black man lynched in background…”
“…MAGA was a nightmare, Trump was a horror and we came close to another civil war to pry loose that evil scum’s fingers from the White House bunker… ”
“…only thing saving us, Air Force officers refusing to drop bombs on New York because Wall Street was a bastion of resistance to complying with the disgraced president’s ever more crazed Executive Orders…”
=+=+=+=+=
Oddly, living in Delaware, I’ve got no need/desire to put up a Biden/Harris sign. We got a BLM sign instead–our town has some issues that need to be worked on.
My Tennessee family, I’m always proud to say, gave two of its three sons fighting against the slaveholder’s treason.
What distresses me as a Wisconsin historian is the appalling way in which the Trumpublican Party simultaneously embraces the Proud Boys, Neo-Confederates and Nazis, while claiming at the same time to be the heirs of the abolitionist party formed here in Wisconsin by people who operated stops on the Underground Railroad, some of the sites still extant in now-Trumpist Waukesha County and other bastions of corrupted reactionary voting.
I’m a 72-year old guy, and I think it’s wonderful to have this sort of commentary from the younger generation. Hope is not lost.
You’re assuming that Trump will lose in November, and forgetting history is written by the winners . I suspect he’s going to win, as you’re massively underestimating the vindictive cruelty, racism and bigotry of America. If you look at the swing states, Biden’s below 50% in most of them. I’m sure there’s a significant chunk of voters who won’t admit it, but will vote for the orange stain.
Unfortunately we’re 8 years out from retirement, if it was sooner we’d be bailing out of the country when he gets re-elected.
In fear of getting banned from one of my favorite author’s sites and as an Independent myself I feel I must weigh in on this but, hey, this is America and we all enjoy the freedom to think what we want and to voice those thoughts to those who will listen. So be it. I will accept what fate may come my way.
From an Independent view point the flag in discussion is kind of idiotic but I see it as a response to some events going on around the country. This flag is, in my opinion, an extreme right wing response to the extreme lawlessness exhibited by some extreme left wing rioters and looters. Will history view this flag the way you say and/or will history view lawlessness by looters/rioters with the same contempt? Just food for thought but one group is expressing their views on the situation on their property using their freedom of speech which is protected under the law. On the other hand we have a group of people expressing their anger and frustration by destroying others property and livelihood, which, if I’m not mistaken, is against the law. Which do you think will be looked down upon more in the future? Truthfully now, leaving personal feelings out of the analysis.
Again, I have likely tap danced too close to the edge where the mallet strikes but to be an honest and fair observer of events one must look a both sides and analyze the situation. As an Independent I feel I can look at both sides objectively and make up my own mind. I hope I have shared that idea here. That being said the events leading up to this election bear a striking similarity to the events that led to a conservative win in 2016 wouldn’t you agree?
I wanted to find the highest res version of this image as I could because there is so much to unpack in it!
Instead, I found out about the origin of this image, which was originally done as a hyperbolic joke but has taken off on its own.
(Illustrator Jason Heuser points out some of the small jokes he left in the picture)
Among other places, it appeared on the side of Cesar Sayoc’s van (the man who sent all those mail bombs).
Satire shouldn’t be this hard.
And how the hell is that eagle firing a machine gun?
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/26/18029700/cesar-sayoc-democrat-bombs-trump-tank-meme-joke
[Deleted because off-topic, i.e., this is not the “here’s where I whine about Biden at length” comment thread — JS]
I’ve seen that image once or twice, floating around on the internet. It’s a fine example of a kind of subgenre of Trump meme featuring him as an over-the-top masculine soldier (often impossibly buff) on a quest to restore American greatness in the cheesiest possible way. See also: Ben Garrison’s shtick.
And, I don’t know. will say that sometimes – not always, but frequently – I think there’s an element of ironic self-awareness to this sort of thing, which can be case even if you really are a Trump supporter. This is something I think a lot of liberals miss, because many of them have convinced themselves that the bulk of the MAGA crowd are hopelessly stupid. But it can be analogous to intersectional liberals who talk about how they really want to kill or “ban” white people (or whoever), or leftists who talk about putting the capitalists “up against the wall” etc. You know what I mean.
That’s a little bit tangential to your larger point, I guess, but it’s worth noting. The Trump fan club is hella creepy, but it’s as complex and multifaceted as any other community.
Folks, a reminder that I’ve instituted a new guideline that says if you start a comment with “I expect this to get malleted,” it’s about 90% likely that I’m going to stop reading there and Mallet you because I would hate not to live up to your expectations.
Last week my wife and I were driving up through rural Alabama from the Florida Panhandle and spotted this very same flag — among so many JESUS 2020 yard signs I started wondering if Christ were actually on the ballot. Seriously. [Also, PANHANDLERS FOR TRUMP, which is its own joke.]
@jim, RE: your concerns about gun confiscation:
“Take the firearms first and then go to court… I like taking the guns early… take the guns first, go through due process second.”
— Donald John Trump, current President of the United States of America
I will never understand people who say that they support Trump because of pro-Second Amendment issues, when Trump has already clearly proven that he will swing anti-Second Amendment in a heartbeat, when it is politically expedient for him to do so.
I’m sure someone above has said this, but it is very likely that in 20 years or so one will find it nearly impossible to find anyone who’ll admit voting for Trump…besides the fact that quite a few of them will have died from COVID19.
Also, no way he’d be able to even get up on that thing, much less remain there while I moved. 😛
I think this is very well said and true. My parents were old enough to be in WW2 and before they passed they did talk about how things got viewed by the generations after theirs
[Deleted because this person clearly came here just to be an asshole — JS]
First of all; Oh.Em.Gee. That flag.
Secondly; I’m imagining Antiques Roadshow, 25 years from now, where some Dystopia Memorabilia exert shakes her head regretfully, saying, “Right now, at auction… we can’t give these away. But I’m sure it was very special for your grand-dad!”
Excellent job with this post, Athena!
Take heart, although I went to high school with your dad, most of my friends are Boomers; and NONE of them support Trump. The disparaging use of the term Boomer really just translates as “old.” Many of the Boomers were Flower Children, a decidedly liberal lot. Geography matters; I’m more concerned about your neighbors because Ohio is a swing state.
In the end Trump supporters vote from a place of fear and insecurity. Deep down they know that they never earned the privilege that they enjoy, and they fear losing it. They fear that there is not enough to go around. The KKK was worried about being attacked because whites were vastly outnumbered by former slaves, and later their descendants, in southern states. It’s very dangerous to allow conscious or unconscious fear to drive our decisions.
Those of us who want to see the end of Trump‘s legacy, must go further than the polls. We must find enough empathy to reach out to our neighbors and re-educate our communities. We must gradually shift the systems of our society away from that which benefits individuals and toward that which creates equity and thereby benefits us all.
Keep following your passions!
I can just as easily imagine our descendents being mortified that they had ancestors who proclaimed “people are more important than buildings”, who ripped down statues of the founders of their country, who thought that WAP was a paean to female empowerment, and whose favorite public radio network thought it was worthwhile to interview the author of “In Defense of Looting”. As ridiculous as you think Trump supporters are, they think that you are equally ridiculous – you cannot face the truth, you destroy all that is good and promote the ugly and obscene, and you will bankrupt the nation and have nothing to show for it.
We have a rich and robust culture war because we have a relatively even split of people on either side. I wouldn’t hold my breath expecting anyone to become ashamed of their views.
I was a curious kid in the ’60’s,my parents were born in the ’20’s and my Dad was on Omaha Beach on D-Day. I was obsessed with the war-I could not get my head around how Germany could do such unbelievable evil, where were the people? How could be drop such a bomb, twice? Being an only child with my Dad gone all the time, I pestered my Mom like crazy. Mom’s excuse was always: “We were scared. We didn’t know.”
I’m old now, and my Dad lived with me in retirement. He read everything he could lay his hands on, and the regret and sorrow over what he was told versus what he knew as an old man was heartbreaking. Watching our political system destroyed bit by bit, the othering of fellow citizens for political gain, and the willingness to sacrifice the old, the sick and the disabled keeps me up at night.
I’m scared, but I know. What is my excuse?
“Expert!” Arrgh.
and forgetting history is written by the winners
That’s less true than you would think. Post Civil War American history was written largely by southerners.
Athena: I appreciate your optimism, but I point to the current youngest generation of white southerners who still defend traitorous generals who fought to enslave other human beings 150 years ago. The US has a LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGGG history of not being embarrassed about doing severely shitty things to other humans.
pedant: ” Germans did in the 80s (when I was stationed there): no one had pics of grandpa with a swastika armband”
Maybe because Germany outlawed swastikas? Germany also officially acknowledged its ww2 attrocities and attempted to reconcile its victims. By 1980, the West German president referred to the Allies defeat of Germany in WW2 as a “liberation”. I believe the German military had or still has a standard training that explicitly instructs and demands all soldiers disobey unlawful orders since so many Nazis used the “I was just following orders” defense.
Compare that to, as mentioned above, the vast numbers of Americans who 150 years after the Civil War, still refer to it as an act of “Northern Aggression” even though the South started it, pretend it was about “state rights” even though several confederate state constitutions explicitly stated that slavery was a cornerstone of their way of life, kicked out the North attempting to rebuild and reform the South directly after the war, implemented Jim Crow laws for a century to try and maintain racial inequality, turned a blind eye to KKK terrorism keeping blacks living in fear, fought Civil Rights and integration and equality with every fiber of their being, and now are the ardent supporter of “All Lives Matter” as long as it doesn’t include Blacks, and so on.
So, maybe Americans shouldn’t be shitting on Germans too hard for not reforming well enough after losing an unjust war. They clearly did better than we have.
Rick: “From an Independent view point the flag in discussion is kind of idiotic but I see it as a response to some events going on around the country. This flag is, in my opinion, an extreme right wing response to the extreme lawlessness exhibited by some extreme left wing rioters and looters.”
Oh gawds, I see we have a representative from the white tweedledee/tweedledum special snowflake independent contingency. Maybe get a clue about just how much bullshit you’re getting on everyone talking about “left wing rioters and looters” like they’re a thing.
MLK was arrested 29 times marching for civil rights. Did he do ANYTHING violent? No. But racists cast him as an instigator of riots and lawlessness everywhere he went. So, maybe don’t repeat the standard talking points that bigots have used for literally decades.
“As an Independent I feel I can look at both sides objectively”
Oh, sweetie, no. No. no no no…. no.
Don’t wave around your independent voter status like some sort of badge. It doesn’t make you any smarter, any less bigotted, any more neutral than anyone else. By the very fact that you think you being independent means you look at “both side objectively”, directly implies that “both sides” are NOT objective. That’s just independent bias right there. next, you’ll be talking about Dems and Reps as various forms of “sheeple”, because, you know, Independents are special unbiased snowflakes that grace the world with their presence, and the rest of us main-party voters are just too biased to see it.
I doubt most Americans will think of Donald Trump in terms of racial matters in a hundred years. A hundred years ago, the President of the United States was an active segregationist with strong support from the KKK. On the rare occasion people do think of Woodrow Wilson, he’s considered a top ten president.
I suspect the only thing the history books will mention about our time is the costs from Covid-19 (Estimated $8+ Trillion) in a parallel with our current view of the Spanish Flu of 1918. Less likely, history will recall the impact of protest damages ($5 billion and rising.)
I do agree that is a bizarre flag. But I’ve seen similar fan made flags for other politicians. There saw a cool one showing President Obama triumphantly riding a lion while dual-wielding a crossbow and a lightsaber.
On the matter of holding people who wear a red hat as Klansman, I worry that kind of talk will drive swing voters to Donald Trump’s corner. In her book What Happened, Hillary Clinton said she mistakenly described half of Trumps’s voters (30+ million Americans) as a basket of deplorables filled with racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic people and that was a key reason she lost the election.
Please don’t generalize. I am a Boomer (and proud to say it), as are most of my friends and relatives, and believe me, we hate Trump more than you do. Yeah, I have a couple of friends who support him, but it is overwhelmingly the other way. Those of us who grew up in New York have always known him for the grifter sociopathic con man he is, and we are still waiting for his Emperor’s New Clothes moment.
Keep your fingers crossed and vote.
Hyman Rosen:
“I can just as easily imagine our descendents being mortified that they had ancestors who proclaimed ‘people are more important than buildings'”
Absolutely disappointing descendants those will be, I have to say. I will not mind having mortified them.
Also, “WAP” ain’t my bag, personally, but it’s nothing that hasn’t been done before musically, by women of color laying claim to their sexuality. There’s a whole lot of R&B I would suggest you steer clear of if “WAP” bothers you. Here, enjoy being mortified by this 85-year old-song:
https://youtu.be/gkPCmIxv-3k
Bogan, incidentally, recognized as a foundational woman in blues music, which suggests her descendants (musical or otherwise) are not especially mortified about her.
Chris Martin:
“On the rare occasion people do think of Woodrow Wilson, he’s considered a top ten president.”
Noooooooooooo?
Hyman: “being mortified that they had ancestors who proclaimed “people are more important than buildings”,”
Why beat around the bush? Why not just come out and say you believe people are less important that buildings and statues? Why don’t you just straight up say “Statues of people dead a century are more important that people alive today.” Just own it, dude. It’s clearly what you think. Why hide behind the rhetoric of hypothetical mortification?
“who ripped down statues of the founders of their country,”
Confederate Generals founded our country???? I mean, its statues of confederate generals that are getting torn down over and over. Wait. Am I in the wrong country? What country are you talking about? Are you from Agrabah? That might be a thing there.
borkallfascists:
“Why hide behind the rhetoric of hypothetical mortification?”
I am assuming because he’s intending to mirror the rhetorical thesis of the original post. I’m not sure I would jump on him for doing so.
So, let’s all take a moment to center ourselves before proceeding forward, thanks.
About Woodrow Wilson and his top 10 presidency: CSpan publishes a survey of the ranking of Presidents done by actual historians. In the 2017 survey, Wilson was 11th, down from 9th in 2009.
Athena wasn’t hiding behind someone else’s mortification to criticize Trumpers. She straight up lambasted them with her own views of them.
Hyman only criticized by proxy the idea that “people are more important than buildings”. I was offering him the chance to own the sentiment personally.
But the difference is probably lost on Trumpers. The MAGA hat cuts off circulation to the brain.
I can safely say that for a lot of posters (from a variety of different spots on the political spectrum), that “white is the default” for commenting.
Not that they aren’t valid viewpoints…for your perspective. But a wider spectrum is available, as are experiences. Don’t discount those.
@Doug We have a pretty good track on the history of US presidents in this country. There is no question whatever that Donald J Trump is going to go down as the very worst person to ever hold the position. So, yeah, I fully expect my descendants to point and laugh at us. I already do.
In the very long run Trump might be the best thing for us to build a sustainable platform from.
That doesn’t mean he is a good president ( I will capitalize it for any other president, even Warren Harding). I am not optimistic that such an advance will happen during my lifetime.
If Trump loses and they have to drag him from office, some might be appalled, but it will be more “fake news” for a great many. The 2024 race will be just as nasty as this one, though, hopefully, without a COVID cross to bear.
Trump’s 28 or so percentage of true believers on;y watch and listen to right wing news. They are not going to change their stripes, though many will go to jail in the aftermath for trying to start something.
It is going to take at least a century to forge any kind of tentative parity in this country.
I think one of the issues with people supporting or not supporting BLM, is that there’s a difference between the statement “Black lives matter”, and the organization. There’s an interview with Terry Crews on CNN where he is told that he fundamentally misunderstands BLM, because he thinks it means black lives matter. He brings up black children that have died, and is told that if he wants to start a movement concerned about them he should start one called “All Black Lives Matter”.
People can disagree with a movement, even one with a catchy name, without disagreeing with everything about them. Black lives matter, that is true. BLM does not have my support carte blanche.
just Craig: “In the very long run Trump might be the best thing for us to build a sustainable platform from.”
that’s the Broken Window Fallacy.
If a kid breaks the cobbler’s window, it helps the glassmaker to the tune of $100. Which, sure, is $100 into the glassmaker’s account and into the economy. BUt at the same time, it takes $100 OUT of the cobbler’s account and out of what the cobbler could have spent it on. The broken window fallacy only counts the benefit to the glassmaker, and ignores the cost to the cobbler.
Third party voters will justify voting for a third party presidential candidate on the excuse that it will “send a message to the DNC”. Might it cause the DNC to move towards the third party in some regard? sure. It might. But while the third party voter is eager to tally up the benefits of his third party vote, he will stubbornly ignore the DAMAGE his vote causes. Four more years of Trump would be DEVASTATING. And whatever minor adjustment to party platform the DNC makes to appease some whiny pouty third party protest voter will be INSIGNIFICANT to the sheer carnage and death that four more years of Trump will surely produce.
Trump is not the “best thing for us” in any way. Not by a long shot. Not even close. The only way that math works is by using the same math as the broken window fallacy: by adding up all the benefits, and ignoring the cost. Trump will be seen as a tragedy a century from now. And any changes the DNC makes will be minor and forgotten by then.
Shaun: “there’s a difference between the statement “Black lives matter”, and the organization”
well, clearly you fundamentally misunderstand BLM because BLM isn’t an “organization”. It’s a highly decentralized idea forwarded by all sorts of different organizations and individuals who may be quite different politically speaking in other areas, but on the topic of racial equality, they all agree: enough of these racist cops killing black people and getting away with murder.
so, maybe don’t repeat racist talking points about what BLM is.
RE: BLM as a discussion topic: It’s going to tangent away from the actual topic at hand, so let’s table that, please.
Do any of you actually remember the last election? The one where Hillary Clinton called honest hard-working people “deplorable” and then she lost?
Now you’re calling the same hard-working honest people who simply want to be safe in their homes “Nazis” and Klan members and all kinds of other vile names. You have shown that you are perfectly okay with bullying as long as you’re the ones doing it. You are perfectly okay with crime as long as it is directed against a different political party. You are fine with lies and falsehoods like trying to pretend full on fire and looting riots are inconsequential or even non-existent. Hatred and falsehoods are no basis for government. Not for the Republicans but more importantly, not for the Democrats either.
No, nobody claims MLK instigated riots. Riots occurred when MLK was assassinated. It was a tragic and senseless act which only served to prove the effectiveness of peaceful protest and ensure the voting rights acts and numerous legal and social reforms. Isn’t that the very thing you seek?
You’re alienating people who would otherwise fully support the principal of equal protection of the law for everyone. You are failing to learn from history and thus doomed to repeat it.
Cadeyrn:
“No, nobody claims MLK instigated riots.”
You… don’t actually have any knowledge of US history, do you?
Also, Nazis and Klan members are Trump supporters. You can ask them yourself. They’ll freely admit it. Your hand-wringing there is a little… misplaced, shall we say. And while #NotEveryTrumpSupporter, they need to be aware of the company they keep and what it says about them.
(Also, last election more Americans voted for Clinton than Trump; he won due to the Electoral College. So if you’re going to try to impose causality on the “deplorables” comment — which you shouldn’t, it’s not a very smart argument — more Americans agreed with Clinton about it than didn’t.)
Rick, upthread: “That being said the events leading up to this election bear a striking similarity to the events that led to a conservative win in 2016 wouldn’t you agree?”
No. Why on Earth would I think that?
“And yeah, the MAGA hat is essentially the modern equivalent to the Nazi swastika armband“
When Trump incinerates 6 million Democrats you would be right.
Lance Wilson:
That armband didn’t exist before the Holocaust, got it.
With that said, I will agree that galloping toward Godwin’s Law is not going to be useful to anyone, so a) let’s table that particular line of discussion, and b) avoid comparisons to the German Nazis (the American Nazis, alas, may still be relevant to the discussion).
Also, general note: As this is exactly the sort of comment thread that sprouts trolls overnight, I’ll be closing it to comments when I head to bed. It’ll open up again tomorrow, when I’m done writing for the morning and will have time to tend to it.
I hope 100 years from now no one mentions Trump at all. Like he gets a single line in the history book, at the bottom of the page that no one looks at. I think not going down in history would piss him off the most. I suspect he just wants to be famous (good or bad doesn’t really concern him)
Oh, that comment about Boomers stings. I was born in 1960 so I have no choice to own my Bommership. I have four children aged 20 – 26, I love them dearly, but contempt from that age group really hurts. Perhaps that makes me a special snowflake. At 12 I marched against the Amchitka bombings at the American Embassy in Vancouver, BC and My kids would tell you that Amchitka is small potatoes compared to what’s happening now. They would be correct.
I am mortified, yes mortified that Trump is our president. I was stupid enough to think it couldn’t happen. I would have voted for Bernie although I would prefer a younger candidate of color. A woman would be great. I will take Biden because another four years of Trump has the potential of sending me to Canada to live with my brother. Please don’t discount all older people, many of us come from liberal families and are raising the next generation to fight the good fight. Kind of like your Dad.
Comically, moronically bizarre image. Also, that’s not the flag of the United States. 15 stripes instead of 13, not enough stars. Many, many things sadly wrong. Makes you wonder about the thought process of someone who would actually fly this on their property.
Caderyn:”No, nobody claims MLK instigated riots.”
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha
Is that what Faux News tells its acolytes these days???
Dude, you are repeating straight up racist propaganda. Maybe stop watching fox, start reading some actual history, and figure out how you are going to deal with being woefully wrong.
Comments off whilst I sleep. They’ll be back up tomorrow after I’ve hit writing quota. Night, all!
Update: Comments back on. Remember: play nice, everyone. I have more things to do with my day than just moderate this thread.
Can we celebrate that this signals you’ve hit your writing quota for the day?
@ Hyman Rosen:
“I can just as easily imagine our descendents being mortified that they had ancestors who proclaimed “people are more important than buildings””
Because “buildings are more important than people” is totally a loftier slogan.
“who ripped down statues of the founders of their country”
This is not happening in any observable reality.
But if it were happening – so what? If I had a great-great-grandfather who’s a serial killer, should I honor his memory? Hell no. This person has nothing to do with who I am today. I can acknowledge his existence, distance myself from him and strive to do better in my own life.
@ Lance Wilson:
“When Trump incinerates 6 million Democrats you would be right.”
Any chance we can do something before the body count gets up to those numbers? 185K today, probably 200K before year-end, is quite enough for me.
@ Rick Thomas:
“That being said the events leading up to this election bear a striking similarity to the events that led to a conservative win in 2016 wouldn’t you agree?”
If you mean the incumbent (conservative) administration’s legacy of 185K preventable deaths, an economy in ruins and soaring unemployment… I would go with “no”.
@ Chris Martin:
“On the matter of holding people who wear a red hat as Klansman, I worry that kind of talk will drive swing voters to Donald Trump’s corner.”
I wouldn’t worry. Anyone who recognizes themselves in that kind of remark is definitely not a “swing voter”.
@ Formerly just Craig:
“The 2024 race will be just as nasty as this one, though, hopefully, without a COVID cross to bear.”
I certainly hope so too. But whoever wins is going to have a hell of a time, and will face a steep uphill battle in 2024. A Biden victory might very well prove to be a Pyrrhic one.
I think it was Jon Meacham who pointed out that at the time of Joseph McCarthy’s censure by the Senate he still had an approval rating of 34%. It will be in the distant future before the descendants of James Buchanan and Herbert Hoover can celebrate their ancestor moving up another rung off the bottom of presidential ratings.
I like to be precise in my language, and I am not sure where “Trump supporter” fits into the lexicon and provides value to “Republican” “Conservative” or “Right Wing.” So, I don’t use it.
Anyway “Democrats,” “Liberals,” and “Leftists” don’t really possess a good understanding of what their opposites think. They don’t listen to the same news, pay attention to the same things, or weight values the same. This failing is mirrored by the Rebubs, Cons, Right Wingers who also have no clue what the the other side is about.
The two sides live in insular realities with their own sets of truths and facts, and there is very little bleed over. This doesn’t stop one side from attempting to mind read the other and explain why they are so icky, stupid, misguided, evil, etc.
Sooo, about two months ago I looked up what was widely considered the best podcast on each side, and I decided to listen to them both and understand where both were coming from, and do this consistently. I did this in an attempt to gain perspective create an actual defensible worldview out of this bifurcated consensual reality we live in. I chose “Pod Save America,” and “The Ben Shapiro Show.”
It hurts. But, I think it’s been valuable for gaining perspective.
I’ve learned things like the tank poster is an obvious joke. It’s hyperbole, and an inside joke because it’s designed to be everything someone on the left would. If it pissed you off, you are being trolled. They are making fun of you, and ridiculing the Obama Hope painting, by making the “Trump version.”
The other thing I learned is that they both have almost the exact same advertisers. Interesting on a number of levels.
Hey kid, I’m a Boomer, and I think all those Trump Boomers and their MAGA hats can get the fork off my damn lawn. #NOTALLBOOMERS #SARCASMWASUSEDINTHISPOST
Just Saying: “The two sides live in insular realities with their own sets of truths and facts,”
Eh, no. Dems are “insular” in that they are welded to partisan ideas like “science” and such, whereas Reps are “insular” in that they are welded to the idea that they are right no matter what science says.
Dems are “insular” in that they like the idea of equality, and Reps are insular in that they dont give a fuck about black people while chanting “All lives matter” to drown out any attempt to point out racism against people of color.
So, sure, totally the same.
By chance are you an “independent” who thinks both main parties are tweedledee / tweedledum different sides of the same biased coin, and you, the “independent, are oh so neutral and are the rare and special person who can rise above that nonsense?
Cadeyrn: “No, nobody claims MLK instigated riots. … You are failing to learn from history and thus doomed to repeat it.”
WOW. I didnt notice the second part till this morning. But WOW.
@ Just Sayin’:
I would say “Trump supporter” does add value as far as precision of speech goes. “Conservative” doesn’t fit the bill any longer, while “Republican” only works insofar as party affiliation is concerned. “Right Winger” is too vague.
“I’ve learned things like the tank poster is an obvious joke.”
I don’t think anyone’s questioning that it is an obvious joke. However, the very fact that those who find the flag funny buy it for $50 a pop turns them into the punchline. Dumb and humor tend to not mix well.
“The other thing I learned is that they both have almost the exact same advertisers.”
You mean that… the same companies advertise on two of the most followed/listened to podcasts on each side, maximizing audience reach?
That’s really surprising. I think I’ll have to sit down for a minute to get over my surprise.
I live in pretty rural New Mexico. Officially, NM is a Democrat state, but in the sticks, it’s thoroughly Republican. My wife during a long-ago campaign cycle put up Howard Dean For President yard signs.
Someone stole them.
She’s been afraid to voice her liberal viewpoints outside of a narrow group of people since.
Far too many people lock on to single issues and dogmatically follow that party and ignore so many other things that are against many other of their interests. The people who are Our Beloved Leaders (I have a hard time even typing His name) most fervent supporters are almost impossible to reason with, the best thing to do is to encourage as many people as possible to vote: high voter turnout almost always goes against the RNC. A lot of His followers have opened their eyes and seen what He’s done and split to vote to Biden, hopefully more will follow. But the DNC has to get more people to vote, and they have to vote in the swing states.
There are certain amounts of truth that both sides of the spectrum live in their own bubbles. But…
A) the blue bubble seems to be larger, and has more connections to non-American sources, and
B) the bubble fails when it meets up with intersubjective data (i.e., facts). You can argue of the efficacy of masks or that MLK Jr. was greeted universally with acceptance, but you look like an ignorant twit when you do (perhaps…because you are?).
It’s understated, I’ll give it that. This reminds me a bit of the pomp and absurdity of Turkmenistan’s Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow. John Oliver did a bit on him, which was both horrifying and darkly comical. The flag strikes me as classic “strongman”, piles of patriotic symbolism inextricably linked to military might. Get out of our way or be run over.
Since independents have come in multiple times now and said everyone but them are dogmatic partisans and only they can see the objective truth:
Just read a independent voter who voted for Bernie in the primary and announced he cant vote for Biden. Oh, yeah, you guys are REAL objective.
And by objective, I mean butt hurt snowflakes willing to let others suffer so you can remain politically pure.
You guys are as neutral and objective as a flat earther on a steam powered rocket.
Bork all fascists. And bork anyone who wont even bother to vote to stop a fascist.
@Just Sayin’, the “I am the one reasonable man caught between two sides that are mirror-images of one another” routine is not particularly original, and if you can’t monetize it a la certain New York Times pundits, why bother?
Contrary to your belief that ‘leftists’ have no idea what their opponents think, they often very much do. That’s WHY they prefer live in bubbles, because who the hell wants to spend their days around Racist Uncle Bob or Friend-of-a-friend MAGA Linda who think that trolling and punching down (‘owning the libs’) is the best of all hobbies? Why on earth would one want to listen to paid ‘conservatives’ say the same predictable, uninteresting things over and over again?
Speaking of insular – try stepping out of the chattering-class bubble, which is its own, insular, limited view regardless of the pretense that Debate Club actually expands one’s horizons.
@Fatman
“Any chance we can do something before the body count gets up to those numbers? 185K today, probably 200K before year-end, is quite enough for me.“
Sure, we all have the ability to control what we do to keep ourselves safe, avoiding situations that might result in exposure to the Virus.
Just as we have the power to control our government. if all who can will get out and vote.
A) I already am embarrassed by (and for) Trump supporters. B) Whoever drew that picture took a good 70+ lbs off the Orange Creature. He must be ready for an especially delicious piece of chocolate cake.
Lance:”Sure, we all have the ability to control what we do to keep ourselves safe”
I can just here your 1940’s self blaming the Jews for not getting out of Germany fast enough. Blaming blacks for not demanding the right to vote. Blaming grandma because her grandson is a shitbag who goes out maskless and brings it back to meemaw. Blaming the victim up and down the timeline.
You’re a real peach, arent you.
@Chris Martin:
A hundred years ago, the President of the United States was an active segregationist with strong support from the KKK. On the rare occasion people do think of Woodrow Wilson, he’s considered a top ten president.
That is less and less the case, and IMO the reassessment would have come sooner without the knee-jerk reputational power-up Wilson got as a wartime president. We Princeton alumni (well, most of us) have also tried to help get the word out about what a retrograde, racist asshat our erstwhile university president was when he ascended to public office, and how much damage he did.
As with the Tulsa/Greenwood Massacre of 1921 and the Wilmington, North Carolina coup of 1898, the truth eventually comes out.
@Bork
Apparently you have no self control shotgunning random incoherent statements.
Lance:”incoherent statements.”
Blaming the victim is quite straightforward. Except for those lacking any empathy towards victims. Do you not have empathy? Lack of empathy might be causing your confusion.
Athena:
I would suggest that (and maybe fortunately) that at least half the populace already view the red hats “the same way we view Klansman hoods, and the Iron Cross.”
A friend of mine said:
“Take it from a German: once it is over (and the worse it ends, the more certainly), nobody will ever have been for Trump. Nobody.”
Even a lot of Republicans think Trump has “issues.” More than half the country voted against him in 2016 before we knew EVERYTHING he was capable of. More particularly, a large percentage of younger people think Trump is evil. The world looks at us with pity because of him. Trump’s legacy is already crystallizing as we watch.
What’s more interesting is how history, as written by Millennials and Zoomers, will judge Obama (and Biden/Harris assuming that comes to be.) It’s up in the air still. A lot will depend on how Biden governs because Obama has basically said this is Volume 3 of his book. (And his original idea for a sequel was sent back for revisions 4 years ago; so now he really needs this version to work out.)
If by some Satanic intervention, Trump wins, Obama will look like a dead end. If Biden fizzles as a leader, Obama’s strategies will look anemic and short-sighted. If Biden actually accomplishes at least some of what everybody wants, then Obama will appear to be a genius at the long game.
borkallfascists, Lance Wilson:
It’s probably best you two stop talking to each other now, or you can’t do that, then take it into email.
Bork:
“
Eh, no. Dems are “insular” in that they are welded to partisan ideas like “science” and such, whereas Reps are “insular” in that they are welded to the idea that they are right no matter what science says.
Dems are “insular” in that they like the idea of equality, and Reps are insular in that they dont give a fuck about black people while chanting “All lives matter” to drown out any attempt to point out racism against people of color.”
There’s that mind reading I mentioned. Some generalization as well.
“ By chance are you an “independent” who thinks both main parties are tweedledee / tweedledum different sides of the same biased coin, and you, the “independent, are oh so neutral and are the rare and special person who can rise above that nonsense?”
Nope. That’s not me. I’m biased and flawed. I try to recognize it, And not embrace it to the extent I’m capable of doing so.
Fatman:
“ I would say “Trump supporter” does add value as far as precision of speech goes. “Conservative” doesn’t fit the bill any longer, while “Republican” only works insofar as party affiliation is concerned. “Right Winger” is too vague”
Good point on the Republican/Democrat meaning only affiliation. I agree. I disagree on “Trump Supporter” because one might cast his vote for Trump as the lesser of two evils. Categorizing such a person as a “supporter” would be attributing a motive that they did not have. I think one needs to be careful about attaching baggage and assumptions to one’s nomenclature.
“ You mean that… the same companies advertise on two of the most followed/listened to podcasts on each side, maximizing audience reach?
That’s really surprising. I think I’ll have to sit down for a minute to get over my surprise.”
I kind of thought about it more in the “selling guns to both sides of the war” sense.
Mythago:
“ Contrary to your belief that ‘leftists’ have no idea what their opponents think, they often very much do. That’s WHY they prefer live in bubbles, because who the hell wants to spend their days around Racist Uncle Bob or Friend-of-a-friend MAGA Linda who think that trolling and punching down (‘owning the libs’) is the best of all hobbies? Why on earth would one want to listen to paid ‘conservatives’ say the same predictable, uninteresting things over and over again?”
Well, because I think that’s a dangerous attitude that causes a lot of damage. It’s also just flat out wrong. The Ben Shapiro show did not even remotely fit any of those characterizations. In fact, I view your statement as being analogous to a Nazi saying “why would I listen to anything a stupid Jew has to say.” I know that’s strong and I’m not saying you are a Nazi, but the attitudes are analogous.
Contempt and saying somebody is worthless and has nothing to offer is pretty strongly dehumanizing. I think that’s always why you should listen. A second reason would be that if they are as bad as you think, then knowing your enemy is a good thing.
“Speaking of insular – try stepping out of the chattering-class bubble, which is its own, insular, limited view regardless of the pretense that Debate Club actually expands one’s horizons.”
Umm, thanks? I will try and do that.
As a general note, I only like to have respectful pleasant conversations. Please be gentle.
I am so proud of you!
I.can not stand donnie the dim.
Worst thing to happen to the
Republic since the great war of Northern aggression.
MAGA Shitcan trump.
@Just Sayin’, “you should take time to listen to the arguments of Nazis else it is YOU who are the true Nazi” is a claim that is as unoriginal as it is foolish. It’s also deliberately insulting, but you’re pretending that you’re not doing that, so let’s let the awkward lay where you flung it.
Listening to horrible views spouted by horrible people for money isn’t a civic duty or a kind recognition of their common humanity, especially when one is already well aware of those horrible views; I don’t need to ‘know my enemy’ because those people loudly proclaim their shitty opinions at every opportunity. It would take a very serious effort, even from inside a liberal bubble, NOT to know what the horrible views of particular elected officials or pundits (or even annoying relatives) are.
I swear, “I listen to [Awful Person] because I want to keep an open mind and know what the enemy is thinking” is the 21st-century version of “I only read Playboy for the articles.”
Call me a leftist, but I’ve always liked Chairman Mao’s article called On Contradiction. You know the South Korean flag? With the Yang and Yin symbol? To Mao, that sort of contradiction is what dialectical materialism is all about, except that things are a) not so fifty-fifty, and b) can suddenly switch proportions.
To me, that can be like the brain of some voters. Like when males in the 70’s, be they long haired or short haired, could laugh so hard at Archie Bunker and his long haired son in law arguing: Part of the laughter was from the tension of the voter having both views in his head at once, contradicting each other.
To me, this means that if a voter is in the middle, or only a bit towards the dark side, then it is still worth “sincerely” (not a definition to ignore) conversing with the person. Because you never know when the proportion may shift.
Just Saying: “There’s that mind reading I mentioned. Some generalization as well.”
Generalizations? Eh? wait, arent you the chucklehead who posted the grand generalization: ““Leftists” don’t really possess a good understanding of what their opposites think. They don’t listen to the same news, pay attention to the same things, or weight values the same. This failing is mirrored by the Rebubs”
Where the fuck do you get all these broad generalizations about WHAT ALL LEFTISTS DO other than by making the shit up, you mind-reading hypcrite?
“one might cast his vote for Trump as the lesser of two evils.”
well, that’s just horseshit. Independent party horseshit. And sometimes its republican idiot horseshit. but still horseshit.
“Categorizing such a person as a “supporter” would be attributing a motive that they did not have.”
Ah, so, if Joe Redneck votes for Trump, they’re doign so blind and without udnerstanding the other side, and they’re just a “supporter”. If Betty Bluedog votes for Biden, they’re doing so out of blind party loyalty and without understanding the other side. But not you. You’re special. Other people get their hands dirty being a “supporter” of one candidate or the other, but not you. Other people compromise when they vote, but not you. Other people vote out of partisan loyalty, but not you. You’re just all kinds of special.
“The Ben Shapiro show did not even remotely fit any of those characterizations.”
Ah, I was wrong. You’re a republican, posing as True Neutral. Except every time you open your mouth, you dump on Dems a whole bunch, and then maybe give lip service to how Reps do some of that too. And then here you defend Ben Right Wing MotherFucker Shapiro. You defend someone voting for Trump. But not once have you defended any left leaning talking head. Not once have you defended voting for Biden.
So, you’re a Republican. Maybe voted Republican your entire life? And have gone to amazing lengths to convince yourself that even though you’ve voted republican youre entire life, you’re not a partisan party hack. You need to convince yourself that you’re not like those swastika-flag-waving Republicans at various Trump rallies. You plan on voting for Trump, sure, but you’re better than *them*. You’re not one of *them*. Because they generalize and mind read. But not YOU. No, not YOU.
You really do believe your own propaganda, eh.
[Deleted because dude, no — JS]
Folks, settle and behave or I will just close the thread early and be very disappointed at you all.
Oww, come on man!
Sean Crawford:
That essay is the rationale behind The Great Leap Forward which killed somewhere between 18-25 million people. Mao himself is responsible for 60 million deaths which places him behind Hitler but ahead of Stalin.
Putting Mao and Stalin together with the bush League communists (Kmer Rouge got 1.7 million hardly worth a mention,) and you get upwards of 125 million people murdered (including half my ancestors) meaning leftism beats fascism as the most evil destructive philosophy in the history of the world.
Your opinion may vary, but I read it too, and I’m not such a big fan.
I was all set to post a #NotAllBoomers hashtag, but someone else got there first!
The senior of our two Gracious Hosts said, not long ago, that The Right and The Left are much too broad to be useful as descriptive categories. Similarly, classifying people by the decade or year or month of their birth may be a fun exercise for marketing specialists wanting to more usefully deploy their advertising dollars. But as a predictor of opinion or behavior, generational labels have all the accuracy & precision of an astrological forecast.
Having said this, I venture to generalize that people, regardless of their age or political disposition, prefer not to be seen as mustachio-twirling villains or conspiracy nuts or deplorable ratbags. They want to be viewed as nice, normal and above all morally justified people. They will do what’s necessary to support that narrative about themselves.
Because opinion polls are about as reliable as this week’s star signs, we don’t know how it’s going to shake out. Maybe in 20 years’ time, it will be prudent to have quietly retired the MAGA hat to the back of the closet. Maybe instead the hat will still be sported proudly in the streets. In that case, the rest of the world will either be shaking its collective (and hatless) head in bemused disbelief, or quietly grinding its teeth because red-hat-ism has gone global.
@Just saying’—Call me a right-thinking republican, but you might want to run your logic past someone in real life to see if your connection, article to Leap Forward, makes sense.
Meanwhile, a reminder fo folks including (but not limited to, interjects my lawyer) yourself, about a fine article called “How to Be a Good Commenter” by our gracious host. Because the topic goes parallel to mallets.
https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/09/18/how-to-be-a-good-commenter/
Sean:
You are correct. My bad. I meant to say “Cultural Revolution”.
No excuse, but it’s difficult to keep all the horrific communist atrocities straight. They just sort of blur into one never ending horror.
Minus the inevitable applications of Godwin’s Law, interesting comments all.
I still don’t see clear evidence that future generations will brand the upcoming 60+ million people who support Donald Trump as a stain on their bloodlines. It would be a considerable shift in psychohistory for people to care how their ancestors voted in a single election.
This feels like the premise of over the top science fiction. Remember in the Star Trek episode Encounter at Farpoint where Q bombastically judged the crew guilty based on the savageries of their ancestors?
Just saying: ” it’s difficult to keep all the horrific communist atrocities straight. ”
Good thing no one seriously pushes the communist manifesto in the US of A.
Pretty seriously violent contigent of nazis and other fascists around though.
We’ve got a long line of knucklehead bigots with guns like Kyle Rittenhouse just ginning up to kill someone. The biggest threat of terrorism in US right now is right wing, white nationalists. All big fans of our bigot in chief who demonizes all protests against racist cops as “thugs” and rioters. And right here on this very thread we have winner of the ignorance is bliss award telling us how nobody ever accused mlk of starting riots.
Also on this thread, a knuckhead defending confederate statues as more important than living people now, and who thinks the confederate generals were the founders of our nation.
The one thing someone got right is that the day Trump is out of office, all the bigots who voted for him will pretend he never existed. Thats what they did the moment W was out of office. Elected W twice to be president. Pretended he didnt exist after he is out.
Its funny how folks are dealing with their shame of wanting to vote for 4 more years of fascism. They pretend they’re the neutral ones, the objective ones, and claim everyone else is biased. Only they see clearly. They worry how being too critical of Trump supporters might offend the hypothetical moderates, making clear they are in fact the die hard trump supporter, and they dont want to be made to feel bad for their vote.
Its called being irresponsible. Taking action, voting for a fascist like trump, and then shirking all responsibility for the damage it causes. It was one of the main reasons the 2016 polls were so off and didnt predict trumps victory then: republicans are ashamed they are voting for trump. Not too ashamed to vote for someone else. No. They are voting for trump. But on some level they feel shame for it enough that they lie to everyone about what they did.
For the folks that claim to be the party of personal responsibility, the level of hypocricy is pretty impressive.
Chris:” Q bombastically judged the crew guilty based on the savageries of their ancestors?”
Eh? No one is condemning future generations for the sins of racist cops today. We’re saying future generations will look back at 21st centurt racist cops and the millions of bigots who supported them, and shake their head in disgust.
Except for a chunk of White Southerners. 300 years after the Civil War, theyll still celebrate their ancestors who fought to enslave other humans.
Surprised this isn’t shut down yet – lots of barking. All I can add is that my Biden/Harris yard sign is on order with the local Party HQ and that I’m thinking about adding a homemade one emblazoned “Trump 2021 – Lock Him Up”.
I don’t think that most Americans are really aware of how good our government is, or rather was before the increasing nosedive of the last 50 years. I lived in enough places overseas to have some idea of how gross corruption and one-party rule can poison a country, and how much citizens should fear a coup, refusal to step down from office, or civil war.
Can anyone who is poxing both houses really think that a Congress and Supreme Court controlled by Democrats would have allowed a Democratic president to botch a pandemic response after it killed – oh, let’s go back only 3 months – 13,000 Americans? Or not impeached a Democratic president who openly invited foreign interference in a Federal election?.
And that’s why I consider Trump a graver threat than anyone that’s made it to the top of the ballot in 100 years. He does not care about the norms of government and the Party Of Trump does not care to stop him, except for the most egregious of his actions – such as suggesting that the G-7 be held at his resort. Either he is literally ignorant of all ethics in government or he considers his own personal profit to Trump all other considerations.
Two quick historical points:
(1) The callback between that flag and the 1988 Dukakis-in-a-tank photo is both disgusting and obvious.
(2) In 198x, I was forced to sit through a political appointee’s guest lecture for a counterintelligence training course in which he referred to “obvious communist sympathizers” like MLKJr as “rabblerousers” who subtly “instigated riots.” So, Caderyn, bugger off; that individual doesn’t count as “nobody.”
Comments off for the night.